[DeTomaso] Longer wheelstuds
jderyke at aol.com
jderyke at aol.com
Wed Feb 7 19:49:58 EST 2018
I went thru some of this in fabricating my billet aluminum front hubs and adapting vented rotors to the Pantera rear suspension. What I see as the main problem here is the Pantera's large OD/thin flat head stud that's needed to clear other parts of the wheel ass'y. So-called 'standard' wheel studs all have a small OD relatively high domed head that, if installed in a Pantera hub or axle flange, will solidly contact the suspension uprights in the rear. Unless someone counterbores the dome-head studs deeper into the flanges, or somehow grinds clearance into hardened-steel studs without changing the heat treatment. And as Les said, counterboring will then cause the disc-locating shank to protrude further out thru the brake disc flange and possibly require a custom chamfer in the wheels to accommodate the extra protrusion.
As Pat suggests, it may make more sense to design & build custom studs to specs needed instead of re-engineering a bunch of expansive parts to fit (relatively) cheap existing-design studs. I have a couple of sets of larger 911-Porsche 14mm dome-head wheel studs, and they will fit existing street-Campy wheel insert holes (don't have any GR- 4 or GR-5 wheels around to try) but the fit is tight. I wouldn't want to be the tire guy in a racing pit trying to do fast tire changes with that combination!
J DeRyke
-----Original Message-----
From: L GRAY <tipo874a at msn.com>
To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>; MikeLDrew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>; detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; Patrick Hals <patrickhals at gmail.com>; lotus0005 <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Feb 7, 2018 3:34 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Longer wheelstuds
........ if you look at the drawing you'll see that he needs specific
diameters & areas of location for the brake disc to align on a
shoulder.
What my statement alludes to is some of the Racing suppliers will
make custom wheel studs for a customer. With the use of "standard
diameter", the manufacturer can pull blanks from existing stock,
machine to specs, instead of having to generate a completely ground up
stud(s), which reduces overall cost for all concerned.
The splined Diameter he's looking for is 15.25mm which is
.6003925". There is probably a US produced stud blank produced very
near to what he's looking for in diameter.
The factory Group 4 stud is a bit lacking in strength due to is
relatively small diameter.
If it weren't for staying original, 02823 would have much
larger diameter studs installed and they would need to be semi
customized depending on whether using the stock trapped disc
orientation or the exterior disc mounting. (which every race car I know
of uses) This means the shoulder where the disc sits is in a different
location as well as the splined section on the wheel stud.
Our factory wheel stud is built for a trapped brake disc only.
As you all know, our studs are pressed into the disc with the axle
flange shoulder being located immediately after the stud mount flange
(which is very unique & dictated by available clearance space).
And Mike, we most certainly do not have a multitude of choice with
factory studs. They are either the standard length or the longer GR 4
stud while maintaining the small diameter stud size. Unless I'm
unaware of someone reproducing Gr 4 studs in multiple lengths. I "
think that factory Gr. 4 studs were in two lengths ?
Someone have a Euro parts book handy??
Just for info, Porsche has been using 14mm diameter wheel studs for
the 911, 914, & 930 cars forever and I've personally seen or heard of
one failing. . . . . . .
Now for a different take on this, you could bore the axle flange and
tap to your desired thread for a screw in stud (using red Loc-tite to
secure) Have the stud made with your disc shoulder size & location and
no spline needed !
......... and if you're really anal about it ( as I am ), ring up
ARP Racing Hardware and they'll make you absolutely ANYTHING to your
requirements . . for a fee, but they'll be perfect and ultra strong.
If I'm not making sense, please get back to me and I'll try my best
to be clearer in defining my thoughts. I'm not an engineer by any
stretch but I've been racing ultra fast cars since the 1970's / 1980's
and wrenching on them for just as long.
By no means am I saying I know it all, as I learn something new
from my forum brothers every day from people who are smarter than I.
I'm just stating that in all my years I spent in endurance racing I
learned a lot about stress loads on the street versus loads on the race
track.
Yes I know the Gr. 4 cars ran these small studs back in the day,
but with current tire tech and chassis set up, we are placing greater
loads on these components than were ever conceived of in 1971 !
Leslie A. Gray
===================
On Feb 7, 2018, at 1:05 PM, Ken Green <[1]kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
If this adds choices, why does Pat say they have to be fabricated???
Ken
__________________________________________________________________
From: L GRAY <[2]tipo874a at msn.com>
To: Mike Drew <[3]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: "[4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
<[5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; Patrick HALS
<[6]patrickhals at gmail.com>; Dinosport <[7]info at dinosport.be>
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Longer wheelstuds
Mike,
The bore being larger allows us to use standard inch scale diameter
studs which means a multitude of choices.
Best regards,
Leslie A. Gray
> On Feb 7, 2018, at 12:05 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso
<[8]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> The spline is larger? What do you mean? Are you saying the holes in
the axles have been drilled oversize so stock-diameter studs won't fit?
That sounds like an incredibly dumb thing to do?
>
> Or am I misunderstanding you?
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 7, 2018, at 10:44, Patrick HALS <[9]patrickhals at gmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for your response, but I am afraid the spline is larger
than
>> original, hence the need to fabricate them.
>> Pat
>> Patrick Hals
>> +32.476.567.898
>> _______________________________________________
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-------------- next part --------------
I went thru some of this in fabricating my billet aluminum front hubs
and adapting vented rotors to the Pantera rear suspension. What I see
as the main problem here is the Pantera's large OD/thin flat head stud
that's needed to clear other parts of the wheel ass'y. So-called
'standard' wheel studs all have a small OD relatively high domed head
that, if installed in a Pantera hub or axle flange, will solidly
contact the suspension uprights in the rear. Unless someone
counterbores the dome-head studs deeper into the flanges, or somehow
grinds clearance into hardened-steel studs without changing the heat
treatment. And as Les said, counterboring will then cause the
disc-locating shank to protrude further out thru the brake disc flange
and possibly require a custom chamfer in the wheels to accommodate the
extra protrusion.
As Pat suggests, it may make more sense to design & build custom studs
to specs needed instead of re-engineering a bunch of expansive parts to
fit (relatively) cheap existing-design studs. I have a couple of sets
of larger 911-Porsche 14mm dome-head wheel studs, and they will fit
existing street-Campy wheel insert holes (don't have any GR- 4 or GR-5
wheels around to try) but the fit is tight. I wouldn't want to be the
tire guy in a racing pit trying to do fast tire changes with that
combination!
J DeRyke
-----Original Message-----
From: L GRAY <tipo874a at msn.com>
To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>; MikeLDrew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>;
detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; Patrick Hals
<patrickhals at gmail.com>; lotus0005 <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Feb 7, 2018 3:34 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Longer wheelstuds
........ if you look at the drawing you'll see that he needs specific
diameters & areas of location for the brake disc to align on a
shoulder.
What my statement alludes to is some of the Racing suppliers will
make custom wheel studs for a customer. With the use of "standard
diameter", the manufacturer can pull blanks from existing stock,
machine to specs, instead of having to generate a completely ground up
stud(s), which reduces overall cost for all concerned.
The splined Diameter he's looking for is 15.25mm which is
.6003925". There is probably a US produced stud blank produced very
near to what he's looking for in diameter.
The factory Group 4 stud is a bit lacking in strength due to is
relatively small diameter.
If it weren't for staying original, 02823 would have much
larger diameter studs installed and they would need to be semi
customized depending on whether using the stock trapped disc
orientation or the exterior disc mounting. (which every race car I know
of uses) This means the shoulder where the disc sits is in a different
location as well as the splined section on the wheel stud.
Our factory wheel stud is built for a trapped brake disc only.
As you all know, our studs are pressed into the disc with the axle
flange shoulder being located immediately after the stud mount flange
(which is very unique & dictated by available clearance space).
And Mike, we most certainly do not have a multitude of choice with
factory studs. They are either the standard length or the longer GR 4
stud while maintaining the small diameter stud size. Unless I'm
unaware of someone reproducing Gr 4 studs in multiple lengths. I "
think that factory Gr. 4 studs were in two lengths ?
Someone have a Euro parts book handy??
Just for info, Porsche has been using 14mm diameter wheel studs for
the 911, 914, & 930 cars forever and I've personally seen or heard of
one failing. . . . . . .
Now for a different take on this, you could bore the axle flange and
tap to your desired thread for a screw in stud (using red Loc-tite to
secure) Have the stud made with your disc shoulder size & location and
no spline needed !
......... and if you're really anal about it ( as I am ), ring up
ARP Racing Hardware and they'll make you absolutely ANYTHING to your
requirements . . for a fee, but they'll be perfect and ultra strong.
If I'm not making sense, please get back to me and I'll try my best
to be clearer in defining my thoughts. I'm not an engineer by any
stretch but I've been racing ultra fast cars since the 1970's / 1980's
and wrenching on them for just as long.
By no means am I saying I know it all, as I learn something new
from my forum brothers every day from people who are smarter than I.
I'm just stating that in all my years I spent in endurance racing I
learned a lot about stress loads on the street versus loads on the race
track.
Yes I know the Gr. 4 cars ran these small studs back in the day,
but with current tire tech and chassis set up, we are placing greater
loads on these components than were ever conceived of in 1971 !
Leslie A. Gray
===================
On Feb 7, 2018, at 1:05 PM, Ken Green <[1][1]kenn_green at yahoo.com>
wrote:
If this adds choices, why does Pat say they have to be fabricated???
Ken
__________________________________________________________________
From: L GRAY <[2][2]tipo874a at msn.com>
To: Mike Drew <[3][3]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: "[4][4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
<[5][5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; Patrick HALS
<[6][6]patrickhals at gmail.com>; Dinosport <[7][7]info at dinosport.be>
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Longer wheelstuds
Mike,
The bore being larger allows us to use standard inch scale diameter
studs which means a multitude of choices.
Best regards,
Leslie A. Gray
> On Feb 7, 2018, at 12:05 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso
<[8][8]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> The spline is larger? What do you mean? Are you saying the holes in
the axles have been drilled oversize so stock-diameter studs won't fit?
That sounds like an incredibly dumb thing to do?
>
> Or am I misunderstanding you?
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 7, 2018, at 10:44, Patrick HALS <[9][9]patrickhals at gmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for your response, but I am afraid the spline is larger
than
>> original, hence the need to fabricate them.
>> Pat
>> Patrick Hals
>> +32.476.567.898
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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