[DeTomaso] DeTomaso Digest, Vol 174, Issue 3
Julian Kift
julian_kift at hotmail.com
Mon Dec 3 17:15:24 EST 2018
I recall seeing a SolidWorks or CAD drawing floating around on one of the forums somewhere, with that you could probably get your local CNC machine shop to fabricate them easily enough.
Have you called Pantera vendors and Lloyd at RBT, the side mounts get removed for the guys that drop a ZF in a GT40 replica so there should be extras floating around. If not most vendors are selling a side mount conversion for the -1 ZF that might also work.
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Eugenio Innocenti <e.innocenti at gmx.de>
Sent: Monday, December 3, 2018 1:23 PM
To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] DeTomaso Digest, Vol 174, Issue 3
I'm looking for sidemounts for a ZF 25-2.
Offers to [1]e.innocenti at gmx.de
Thanks to all
Eugene
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Daily Detomaso List Digest
Today's Topics:
1. Re: The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat (Mike Drew)
2. The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat (Larry Finch)
3. Re: The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat (Mike Drew)
4. Re: The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat (Larry Finch)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 11:16:35 -0800
From: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
To: Charles Engles <xcfengles at gmail.com>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com, sdpanteras at googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
Thermostat
Message-ID: <DB55BC20-C7C1-4AF2-9609-2EC650E085BF at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Guys,
Here is a 180 degree OEM-style 351C thermostat from NAPA auto parts:
[3]https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MRD197
Note that it?s stated that it is appropriate for both the 351C and
351W. I suppose it would work fine in a Windsor because the hat
wouldn?t interfere with anything, but I have verified that this is a
Cleveland-specific unit.
Works good, lasts long time?and costs eight bucks.
The original thermostat was 192 degrees (or 195? I can?t remember)
and those are available too from various makers, as are 160 degree
units which are arguably much too cold.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Dec 2, 2018, at 10:53, Charles Engles <xcfengles at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Dear Forum,
>
> Another option would be a currently manufactured real Cleveland
thermostat, although it is a bit more than $7 (???)
>
> [4]https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/high-flo-thermostat/
>
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>
>
>> On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 8:29 AM Mike Drew via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>> Jack,
>>
>> I buy thermostats for people all the time. Conventional OEM-style
thermostats for the 351C cost the same as their Windsor
counterparts, around $7. It?s true that since Robertshaw
discontinued their 351C model, if you want a Robertshaw thermostat
you have to buy one that has been customized from a Windsor model,
from Marlin Jack, and due to the amount of work involved, those are
very expensive indeed!
>>
>> The pressed-on ?hat? on the Cleveland thermostat adds to its
diameter to partially (not fully) obstruct the orifice in the disc
in the block, but I don?t believe it adds significantly to its
height? If that supposition is correct, then potentially either a
Windsor or Cleveland thermostat could be blocked from fully opening
if the disc in the block was solid. There is a significant amount of
vertical travel when the thermostat fully opens and although I never
thought about it until now, and don?t have an engine to reference to
test the hypothesis, it wouldn?t surprise me if you have hit on yet
another disadvantage to modifying the cooling system in this manner.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> > On Dec 2, 2018, at 00:03, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > With some brands of thermostats, if the recirculation port is
closed
>> > off with a plug (small vent hole or not) instead of the std
brass ring,
>> > the 351-C 'thimble' on the end of the thermostat may hit the
plug
>> > before the thermostat fully opens. This could in turn restrict
the main
>> > water flow and cause water temps to be a bit higher. Plus, it's
a waste
>> > of money- the 351C thermostat is significantly more expensive
than a
>> > generic Windsor thermostat. Easy fix: try a Windsor and see!
>> > My 2A-c-- J DeRyke
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Mike Becker <mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
>> > To: detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; 'San Diego
Panteras'
>> > <sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
>> > Sent: Sat, Dec 1, 2018 9:33 pm
>> > Subject: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
Thermostat
>> > See the link below and the description of 2 flavors of
restrictor
>> > plate. My engine has the solid aluminum plate with the tiny
hole.
>> > But
>> > I have always run the 351C unique thermostat. My engine has
always
>> > run
>> > a bit hot, usually over 200, even on the highway. I noticed
this
>> > article says "This unit (restrictor plate with the tiny hole)
must be
>> > used in conjunction with a [1]standard thermostat , you cannot
use
>> > the
>> > 351C unique thermostat with this block off plate."
>> > Does anyone know if this is true? Could this be the reason my
engine
>> > runs hot? Actually my engine currently doesn't run at all due
to a
>> > destroyed rod journal. My engine is currently out and in
pieces, so
>> > I'm wondering if I should change to the original big-hole
restrictor
>> > or
>> > keep the small-hole restrictor and switch to a non-351c
standard
>> > thermostat.
>> >
[2][1][5]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.ht
ml
>> > thanks,
>> > mike
>> > References
>> > 1. [2][6]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
>> > 2.
[3][7]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> > DeTomaso mailing list
>> > [4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> > [5][8]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
>> > use the links above.
>> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward any
>> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the
>> > list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
>> > or approve the archiving of list messages.
>> >
>> > References
>> >
>> > 1.
[9]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
>> > 2. [10]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
>> > 3.
[11]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
>> > 4. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> > 5. [12]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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>>
>>
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-------------- next part --------------
Guys,
Here is a 180 degree OEM-style 351C thermostat from NAPA auto parts:
[1][15]https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MRD197
Note that it's stated that it is appropriate for both the 351C and
351W. I suppose it would work fine in a Windsor because the hat
wouldn't interfere with anything, but I have verified that this is a
Cleveland-specific unit.
Works good, lasts long time--and costs eight bucks.
The original thermostat was 192 degrees (or 195? I can't remember)
and
those are available too from various makers, as are 160 degree units
which are arguably much too cold.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 2, 2018, at 10:53, Charles Engles <[2]xcfengles at gmail.com>
wrote:
Dear Forum,
Another option would be a currently manufactured real
Cleveland thermostat, although it is a bit more than $7 (???)
[3][16]https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/high-flo-thermostat/
Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 8:29 AM Mike Drew via DeTomaso
<[4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Jack,
I buy thermostats for people all the time. Conventional OEM-style
thermostats for the 351C cost the same as their Windsor
counterparts, around $7. It's true that since Robertshaw
discontinued their 351C model, if you want a Robertshaw thermostat
you have to buy one that has been customized from a Windsor model,
from Marlin Jack, and due to the amount of work involved, those are
very expensive indeed!
The pressed-on `hat' on the Cleveland thermostat adds to its
diameter to partially (not fully) obstruct the orifice in the disc
in the block, but I don't believe it adds significantly to its
height? If that supposition is correct, then potentially either a
Windsor or Cleveland thermostat could be blocked from fully opening
if the disc in the block was solid. There is a significant amount
of vertical travel when the thermostat fully opens and although I
never thought about it until now, and don't have an engine to
reference to test the hypothesis, it wouldn't surprise me if you
have hit on yet another disadvantage to modifying the cooling system
in this manner.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Dec 2, 2018, at 00:03, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<[5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> With some brands of thermostats, if the recirculation port is
closed
> off with a plug (small vent hole or not) instead of the std
brass ring,
> the 351-C 'thimble' on the end of the thermostat may hit the
plug
> before the thermostat fully opens. This could in turn restrict
the main
> water flow and cause water temps to be a bit higher. Plus, it's
a waste
> of money- the 351C thermostat is significantly more expensive
than a
> generic Windsor thermostat. Easy fix: try a Windsor and see!
> My 2A-c-- J DeRyke
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Becker <[6]mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
> To: detomaso <[7]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; 'San Diego
Panteras'
> <[8]sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Sat, Dec 1, 2018 9:33 pm
> Subject: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
Thermostat
> See the link below and the description of 2 flavors of
restrictor
> plate. My engine has the solid aluminum plate with the tiny
hole.
> But
> I have always run the 351C unique thermostat. My engine has
always
> run
> a bit hot, usually over 200, even on the highway. I noticed
this
> article says "This unit (restrictor plate with the tiny hole)
must be
> used in conjunction with a [1]standard thermostat , you cannot
use
> the
> 351C unique thermostat with this block off plate."
> Does anyone know if this is true? Could this be the reason my
engine
> runs hot? Actually my engine currently doesn't run at all due
to a
> destroyed rod journal. My engine is currently out and in
pieces, so
> I'm wondering if I should change to the original big-hole
restrictor
> or
> keep the small-hole restrictor and switch to a non-351c
standard
> thermostat.
>
[2][1][9][17]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplat
e.ht
ml
> thanks,
> mike
> References
> 1. [2][10][18]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
> 2.
[3][11][19]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.
html
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [4][12]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>
[5][13][20]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1.
[14][21]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.htm
l
> 2. [15][22]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
> 3.
[16][23]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.htm
l
> 4. mailto:[17]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 5.
[18][24]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [19]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [20][25]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
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_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
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References
1. [27]https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MRD197
2. mailto:xcfengles at gmail.com
3. [28]https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/high-flo-thermostat/
4. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
5. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
6. mailto:mikebecker679 at gmail.com
7. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
8. mailto:sdpanteras at googlegroups.com
9. [29]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
10. [30]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
11.
[31]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. [32]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
14.
[33]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
15. [34]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
16.
[35]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
17. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
18. [36]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
19. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
20. [37]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
21. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
22. [38]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 19:32:12 -0800
From: Larry Finch <fresnofinches at aol.com>
To: Email List Address For Posting
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat
Message-ID: <F431FD47-8840-4350-A518-6AC99D7DD939 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
All,
A stock Pantera 351C cooling system has five (six with pulley)
specific design components in the engine.
Water pump WITH bypass passage
Water pump impeller WITHOUT backing plate
Restrictor plate in block
High-flow thermostat*
Thermostat with ?hat?
* I have heard/read multiple times, and have personally come to
believe, that the Cleveland OEM thermostat was the high-flow version
with the hat.
Tim Meyer (he is the vendor who took over the Todd Buttermore
Cleveland project and is now providing aluminum and iron blocks) has
retooled the original high flow Cleveland thermostat($32), as Thomas
and Chuck have previously mentioned. He also has a proper restrictor
plate ($20) ($49-the set) for the block. 160-180-195 versions.
Personally I have no problem spending $32 to purchase an OEM-correct
high-flow thermostat from a vendor who has stepped forward and made
them readily available.
I don?t believe the money saved with a NAPA standard-flow thermostat
justifies the restriction to coolant flow that must surely come with
that non-OEM style.
Now in practice, we all know there are many approaches to cooling
that will provide acceptable performance.
Example:
2511 when purchased had the pinhole restrictor plate, a Windsor
standard flow thermostat, and the Weiand water pump which does not
have the bypass passage. That engine did not run hot, did not boil
over; performed just fine year after year. It actually had zero out
of the five design components mentioned above. :-o ;-)
Maybe the Weiand water pump impeller that has a backing plate
increased water flow enough that the standard flow thermostat
restriction was neutralized?
Whatever, it worked.
Perhaps logic, and respect for the original Ford-engineered system,
would seem to suggest the standard .... starting.... point for any
351C cooling system should incorporate all five of the above design
components.
Then, if you have cooling issues you know that you have at least
started with the correct OEM design.
Larry
Impeller backing plate
Undersized WP pulley
Single-dual-pass radiator
160-180-195 thermostats
Brass-aluminum radiator
Upright or laydown
And..........and..... :-)
Sent from me using a magic, handheld electronic gizmo.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 19:44:33 -0800
From: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
To: Larry Finch <fresnofinches at aol.com>, De Tomaso Forum
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
Thermostat
Message-ID: <61045CD9-F73E-4686-80A4-B3505716C231 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Larry,
Panteras came with standard thermostats. Standard thermostats are
not ?high flow?. Those weren?t even invented back then, I don?t
think.
I have removed original thermostats from original Pantera engines. I
used to have one as a visual aid but I must have thrown it out, as I
can?t find it now. It was seriously crusty but still worked.
Standard style, Ford markings, 19x degrees (192 or 195, I still
can?t remember).
I?m with you?I would buy the Tim Meyer version over the cheap ones,
although it?s just for superstitious reasons. I can?t say I have
ever heard of a quantifiable improvement that resulted from using
one over the other.
John Christian once explained to me the argument against blocking
off the bypass passage (either with a water pump that lacks the
port, or a blockoff plate). Thermal shock, cavitation, steam pockets
etc were some of the reasons he gave.
He helped invent the 351C so I?ll take him at his word! Note that I
don?t claim any specific expertise. I just know and trust some
really smart people. :)
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Dec 2, 2018, at 19:32, Larry Finch via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> A stock Pantera 351C cooling system has five (six with pulley)
specific design components in the engine.
>
> Water pump WITH bypass passage
> Water pump impeller WITHOUT backing plate
>
> Restrictor plate in block
>
> High-flow thermostat*
> Thermostat with ?hat?
>
> * I have heard/read multiple times, and have personally come to
believe, that the Cleveland OEM thermostat was the high-flow version
with the hat.
>
> Tim Meyer (he is the vendor who took over the Todd Buttermore
Cleveland project and is now providing aluminum and iron blocks) has
retooled the original high flow Cleveland thermostat($32), as Thomas
and Chuck have previously mentioned. He also has a proper restrictor
plate ($20) ($49-the set) for the block. 160-180-195 versions.
>
> Personally I have no problem spending $32 to purchase an
OEM-correct high-flow thermostat from a vendor who has stepped
forward and made them readily available.
>
> I don?t believe the money saved with a NAPA standard-flow
thermostat justifies the restriction to coolant flow that must
surely come with that non-OEM style.
>
> Now in practice, we all know there are many approaches to cooling
that will provide acceptable performance.
>
> Example:
>
> 2511 when purchased had the pinhole restrictor plate, a Windsor
standard flow thermostat, and the Weiand water pump which does not
have the bypass passage. That engine did not run hot, did not boil
over; performed just fine year after year. It actually had zero out
of the five design components mentioned above. :-o ;-)
>
> Maybe the Weiand water pump impeller that has a backing plate
increased water flow enough that the standard flow thermostat
restriction was neutralized?
>
> Whatever, it worked.
>
> Perhaps logic, and respect for the original Ford-engineered
system, would seem to suggest the standard .... starting.... point
for any 351C cooling system should incorporate all five of the above
design components.
>
> Then, if you have cooling issues you know that you have at least
started with the correct OEM design.
>
> Larry
>
> Impeller backing plate
> Undersized WP pulley
> Single-dual-pass radiator
> 160-180-195 thermostats
> Brass-aluminum radiator
> Upright or laydown
> And..........and..... :-)
>
>
> Sent from me using a magic, handheld electronic gizmo.
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [39]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 23:44:43 -0800
From: Larry Finch <fresnofinches at aol.com>
To: Email List Address For Posting
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
Thermostat
Message-ID: <EEC51E23-615B-4519-BEB0-F585EAC72B5C at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
All,
I am quite sure hi-flow thermostats were available for the
Cleveland, as evidenced by this drawing attributed to, and certainly
appearing to be from, Ford.
It clearly depicts a hi-flow style thermostat.
Larry
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End of DeTomaso Digest, Vol 174, Issue 3
****************************************
References
1. http://e.innocenti/
2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
3. https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MRD197
4. https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/high-flo-thermostat/
5. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
6. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
7. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
8. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
9. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
10. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
11. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
12. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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14. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
15. https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MRD197
16. https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/high-flo-thermostat/
17. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.ht
18. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
19. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
20. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
21. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
22. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
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27. https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MRD197
28. https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/high-flo-thermostat/
29. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
30. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
31. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
32. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
33. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
34. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
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-------------- next part --------------
I recall seeing a SolidWorks or CAD drawing floating around on one of
the forums somewhere, with that you could probably get your local CNC
machine shop to fabricate them easily enough.
Have you called Pantera vendors and Lloyd at RBT, the side mounts get
removed for the guys that drop a ZF in a GT40 replica so there should
be extras floating around. If not most vendors are selling a side mount
conversion for the -1 ZF that might also work.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Eugenio Innocenti <e.innocenti at gmx.de>
Sent: Monday, December 3, 2018 1:23 PM
To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] DeTomaso Digest, Vol 174, Issue 3
I'm looking for sidemounts for a ZF 25-2.
Offers to [1]e.innocenti at gmx.de
Thanks to all
Eugene
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Daily Detomaso List Digest
Today's Topics:
1. Re: The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat (Mike Drew)
2. The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat (Larry Finch)
3. Re: The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat (Mike Drew)
4. Re: The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat (Larry
Finch)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 11:16:35 -0800
From: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
To: Charles Engles <xcfengles at gmail.com>
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com, sdpanteras at googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
Thermostat
Message-ID: <DB55BC20-C7C1-4AF2-9609-2EC650E085BF at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Guys,
Here is a 180 degree OEM-style 351C thermostat from NAPA auto
parts:
[3]https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MRD197
Note that it?s stated that it is appropriate for both the 351C and
351W. I suppose it would work fine in a Windsor because the hat
wouldn?t interfere with anything, but I have verified that this is
a
Cleveland-specific unit.
Works good, lasts long time?and costs eight bucks.
The original thermostat was 192 degrees (or 195? I can?t remember)
and those are available too from various makers, as are 160 degree
units which are arguably much too cold.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Dec 2, 2018, at 10:53, Charles Engles <xcfengles at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Dear Forum,
>
> Another option would be a currently manufactured real Cleveland
thermostat, although it is a bit more than $7 (???)
>
> [4]https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/high-flo-thermostat/
>
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>
>
>> On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 8:29 AM Mike Drew via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>> Jack,
>>
>> I buy thermostats for people all the time. Conventional
OEM-style
thermostats for the 351C cost the same as their Windsor
counterparts, around $7. It?s true that since Robertshaw
discontinued their 351C model, if you want a Robertshaw thermostat
you have to buy one that has been customized from a Windsor model,
from Marlin Jack, and due to the amount of work involved, those
are
very expensive indeed!
>>
>> The pressed-on ?hat? on the Cleveland thermostat adds to its
diameter to partially (not fully) obstruct the orifice in the disc
in the block, but I don?t believe it adds significantly to its
height? If that supposition is correct, then potentially either a
Windsor or Cleveland thermostat could be blocked from fully
opening
if the disc in the block was solid. There is a significant amount
of
vertical travel when the thermostat fully opens and although I
never
thought about it until now, and don?t have an engine to reference
to
test the hypothesis, it wouldn?t surprise me if you have hit on
yet
another disadvantage to modifying the cooling system in this
manner.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> > On Dec 2, 2018, at 00:03, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > With some brands of thermostats, if the recirculation port is
closed
>> > off with a plug (small vent hole or not) instead of the std
brass ring,
>> > the 351-C 'thimble' on the end of the thermostat may hit the
plug
>> > before the thermostat fully opens. This could in turn
restrict
the main
>> > water flow and cause water temps to be a bit higher. Plus,
it's
a waste
>> > of money- the 351C thermostat is significantly more expensive
than a
>> > generic Windsor thermostat. Easy fix: try a Windsor and see!
>> > My 2A-c-- J DeRyke
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Mike Becker <mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
>> > To: detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; 'San Diego
Panteras'
>> > <sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
>> > Sent: Sat, Dec 1, 2018 9:33 pm
>> > Subject: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
Thermostat
>> > See the link below and the description of 2 flavors of
restrictor
>> > plate. My engine has the solid aluminum plate with the tiny
hole.
>> > But
>> > I have always run the 351C unique thermostat. My engine has
always
>> > run
>> > a bit hot, usually over 200, even on the highway. I noticed
this
>> > article says "This unit (restrictor plate with the tiny hole)
must be
>> > used in conjunction with a [1]standard thermostat , you
cannot
use
>> > the
>> > 351C unique thermostat with this block off plate."
>> > Does anyone know if this is true? Could this be the reason my
engine
>> > runs hot? Actually my engine currently doesn't run at all due
to a
>> > destroyed rod journal. My engine is currently out and in
pieces, so
>> > I'm wondering if I should change to the original big-hole
restrictor
>> > or
>> > keep the small-hole restrictor and switch to a non-351c
standard
>> > thermostat.
>> >
[2][1][5]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.ht
ml
>> > thanks,
>> > mike
>> > References
>> > 1. [2][6]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
>> > 2.
[3][7]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> > DeTomaso mailing list
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>> >
[5][8]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> > To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe,
etc.)
>> > use the links above.
>> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
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>> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members
of
the
>> > list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain
an
archive
>> > or approve the archiving of list messages.
>> >
>> > References
>> >
>> > 1.
[9]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
>> > 2. [10]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
>> > 3.
[11]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
>> > 4. [1]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> > 5.
[12]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> >
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-------------- next part --------------
Guys,
Here is a 180 degree OEM-style 351C thermostat from NAPA auto
parts:
[1][15]https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MRD197
Note that it's stated that it is appropriate for both the 351C and
351W. I suppose it would work fine in a Windsor because the hat
wouldn't interfere with anything, but I have verified that this is
a
Cleveland-specific unit.
Works good, lasts long time--and costs eight bucks.
The original thermostat was 192 degrees (or 195? I can't remember)
and
those are available too from various makers, as are 160 degree
units
which are arguably much too cold.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 2, 2018, at 10:53, Charles Engles <[2]xcfengles at gmail.com>
wrote:
Dear Forum,
Another option would be a currently manufactured real
Cleveland thermostat, although it is a bit more than $7 (???)
[3][16]https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/high-flo-thermostat/
Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 8:29 AM Mike Drew via DeTomaso
<[4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Jack,
I buy thermostats for people all the time. Conventional OEM-style
thermostats for the 351C cost the same as their Windsor
counterparts, around $7. It's true that since Robertshaw
discontinued their 351C model, if you want a Robertshaw thermostat
you have to buy one that has been customized from a Windsor model,
from Marlin Jack, and due to the amount of work involved, those
are
very expensive indeed!
The pressed-on `hat' on the Cleveland thermostat adds to its
diameter to partially (not fully) obstruct the orifice in the disc
in the block, but I don't believe it adds significantly to its
height? If that supposition is correct, then potentially either a
Windsor or Cleveland thermostat could be blocked from fully
opening
if the disc in the block was solid. There is a significant amount
of vertical travel when the thermostat fully opens and although I
never thought about it until now, and don't have an engine to
reference to test the hypothesis, it wouldn't surprise me if you
have hit on yet another disadvantage to modifying the cooling
system
in this manner.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Dec 2, 2018, at 00:03, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<[5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> With some brands of thermostats, if the recirculation port is
closed
> off with a plug (small vent hole or not) instead of the std
brass ring,
> the 351-C 'thimble' on the end of the thermostat may hit the
plug
> before the thermostat fully opens. This could in turn restrict
the main
> water flow and cause water temps to be a bit higher. Plus, it's
a waste
> of money- the 351C thermostat is significantly more expensive
than a
> generic Windsor thermostat. Easy fix: try a Windsor and see!
> My 2A-c-- J DeRyke
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Becker <[6]mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
> To: detomaso <[7]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; 'San Diego
Panteras'
> <[8]sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Sat, Dec 1, 2018 9:33 pm
> Subject: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
Thermostat
> See the link below and the description of 2 flavors of
restrictor
> plate. My engine has the solid aluminum plate with the tiny
hole.
> But
> I have always run the 351C unique thermostat. My engine has
always
> run
> a bit hot, usually over 200, even on the highway. I noticed
this
> article says "This unit (restrictor plate with the tiny hole)
must be
> used in conjunction with a [1]standard thermostat , you cannot
use
> the
> 351C unique thermostat with this block off plate."
> Does anyone know if this is true? Could this be the reason my
engine
> runs hot? Actually my engine currently doesn't run at all due
to a
> destroyed rod journal. My engine is currently out and in
pieces, so
> I'm wondering if I should change to the original big-hole
restrictor
> or
> keep the small-hole restrictor and switch to a non-351c
standard
> thermostat.
>
[2][1][9][17]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplat
e.ht
ml
> thanks,
> mike
> References
> 1. [2][10][18]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
> 2.
[3][11][19]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.
html
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [4][12]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>
[5][13][20]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1.
[14][21]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.htm
l
> 2. [15][22]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
> 3.
[16][23]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.htm
l
> 4. mailto:[17]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 5.
[18][24]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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> [20][25]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
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References
1. [27]https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MRD197
2. [2]mailto:xcfengles at gmail.com
3. [28]https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/high-flo-thermostat/
4. [3]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
5. [4]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
6. [5]mailto:mikebecker679 at gmail.com
7. [6]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
8. [7]mailto:sdpanteras at googlegroups.com
9.
[29]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
10. [30]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
11.
[31]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
12. [8]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. [32]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
14.
[33]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
15. [34]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
16.
[35]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
17. [9]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
18. [36]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
19. [10]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
20. [37]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
21. [11]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
22. [38]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 19:32:12 -0800
From: Larry Finch <fresnofinches at aol.com>
To: Email List Address For Posting
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
Thermostat
Message-ID: <F431FD47-8840-4350-A518-6AC99D7DD939 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
All,
A stock Pantera 351C cooling system has five (six with pulley)
specific design components in the engine.
Water pump WITH bypass passage
Water pump impeller WITHOUT backing plate
Restrictor plate in block
High-flow thermostat*
Thermostat with ?hat?
* I have heard/read multiple times, and have personally come to
believe, that the Cleveland OEM thermostat was the high-flow
version
with the hat.
Tim Meyer (he is the vendor who took over the Todd Buttermore
Cleveland project and is now providing aluminum and iron blocks)
has
retooled the original high flow Cleveland thermostat($32), as
Thomas
and Chuck have previously mentioned. He also has a proper
restrictor
plate ($20) ($49-the set) for the block. 160-180-195 versions.
Personally I have no problem spending $32 to purchase an
OEM-correct
high-flow thermostat from a vendor who has stepped forward and
made
them readily available.
I don?t believe the money saved with a NAPA standard-flow
thermostat
justifies the restriction to coolant flow that must surely come
with
that non-OEM style.
Now in practice, we all know there are many approaches to cooling
that will provide acceptable performance.
Example:
2511 when purchased had the pinhole restrictor plate, a Windsor
standard flow thermostat, and the Weiand water pump which does not
have the bypass passage. That engine did not run hot, did not boil
over; performed just fine year after year. It actually had zero
out
of the five design components mentioned above. :-o ;-)
Maybe the Weiand water pump impeller that has a backing plate
increased water flow enough that the standard flow thermostat
restriction was neutralized?
Whatever, it worked.
Perhaps logic, and respect for the original Ford-engineered
system,
would seem to suggest the standard .... starting.... point for any
351C cooling system should incorporate all five of the above
design
components.
Then, if you have cooling issues you know that you have at least
started with the correct OEM design.
Larry
Impeller backing plate
Undersized WP pulley
Single-dual-pass radiator
160-180-195 thermostats
Brass-aluminum radiator
Upright or laydown
And..........and..... :-)
Sent from me using a magic, handheld electronic gizmo.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 19:44:33 -0800
From: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
To: Larry Finch <fresnofinches at aol.com>, De Tomaso Forum
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
Thermostat
Message-ID: <61045CD9-F73E-4686-80A4-B3505716C231 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Larry,
Panteras came with standard thermostats. Standard thermostats are
not ?high flow?. Those weren?t even invented back then, I don?t
think.
I have removed original thermostats from original Pantera engines.
I
used to have one as a visual aid but I must have thrown it out, as
I
can?t find it now. It was seriously crusty but still worked.
Standard style, Ford markings, 19x degrees (192 or 195, I still
can?t remember).
I?m with you?I would buy the Tim Meyer version over the cheap
ones,
although it?s just for superstitious reasons. I can?t say I have
ever heard of a quantifiable improvement that resulted from using
one over the other.
John Christian once explained to me the argument against blocking
off the bypass passage (either with a water pump that lacks the
port, or a blockoff plate). Thermal shock, cavitation, steam
pockets
etc were some of the reasons he gave.
He helped invent the 351C so I?ll take him at his word! Note that
I
don?t claim any specific expertise. I just know and trust some
really smart people. :)
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Dec 2, 2018, at 19:32, Larry Finch via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> A stock Pantera 351C cooling system has five (six with pulley)
specific design components in the engine.
>
> Water pump WITH bypass passage
> Water pump impeller WITHOUT backing plate
>
> Restrictor plate in block
>
> High-flow thermostat*
> Thermostat with ?hat?
>
> * I have heard/read multiple times, and have personally come to
believe, that the Cleveland OEM thermostat was the high-flow
version
with the hat.
>
> Tim Meyer (he is the vendor who took over the Todd Buttermore
Cleveland project and is now providing aluminum and iron blocks)
has
retooled the original high flow Cleveland thermostat($32), as
Thomas
and Chuck have previously mentioned. He also has a proper
restrictor
plate ($20) ($49-the set) for the block. 160-180-195 versions.
>
> Personally I have no problem spending $32 to purchase an
OEM-correct high-flow thermostat from a vendor who has stepped
forward and made them readily available.
>
> I don?t believe the money saved with a NAPA standard-flow
thermostat justifies the restriction to coolant flow that must
surely come with that non-OEM style.
>
> Now in practice, we all know there are many approaches to
cooling
that will provide acceptable performance.
>
> Example:
>
> 2511 when purchased had the pinhole restrictor plate, a Windsor
standard flow thermostat, and the Weiand water pump which does not
have the bypass passage. That engine did not run hot, did not boil
over; performed just fine year after year. It actually had zero
out
of the five design components mentioned above. :-o ;-)
>
> Maybe the Weiand water pump impeller that has a backing plate
increased water flow enough that the standard flow thermostat
restriction was neutralized?
>
> Whatever, it worked.
>
> Perhaps logic, and respect for the original Ford-engineered
system, would seem to suggest the standard .... starting.... point
for any 351C cooling system should incorporate all five of the
above
design components.
>
> Then, if you have cooling issues you know that you have at least
started with the correct OEM design.
>
> Larry
>
> Impeller backing plate
> Undersized WP pulley
> Single-dual-pass radiator
> 160-180-195 thermostats
> Brass-aluminum radiator
> Upright or laydown
> And..........and..... :-)
>
>
> Sent from me using a magic, handheld electronic gizmo.
> _______________________________________________
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 23:44:43 -0800
From: Larry Finch <fresnofinches at aol.com>
To: Email List Address For Posting
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
Thermostat
Message-ID: <EEC51E23-615B-4519-BEB0-F585EAC72B5C at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
All,
I am quite sure hi-flow thermostats were available for the
Cleveland, as evidenced by this drawing attributed to, and
certainly
appearing to be from, Ford.
It clearly depicts a hi-flow style thermostat.
Larry
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6. [17]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
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17. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
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29. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
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