[DeTomaso] DeTomaso Digest, Vol 174, Issue 3
Owen Cooke
owen at tadhgcooke.com
Mon Dec 3 12:12:16 EST 2018
I has cooling problems when i bought my pantera and apart froom better
fans and a new bigger rad , i put in a new 351C stat with the hat on
but the orifice under the stat was soldered up , fully closed
I meltd away the solder to leave the original oriface of about 3/4 in
diameter and everything is great since
warms up evenly and quickly and runs at about 95c all the time
owen
On 03/12/2018 17:00, detomaso-request at server.detomasolist.com wrote:
> Send DeTomaso mailing list submissions to
> detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> detomaso-request at server.detomasolist.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> detomaso-owner at server.detomasolist.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of DeTomaso digest..."
>
>
> Daily Detomaso List Digest
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat (Mike Drew)
> 2. The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat (Larry Finch)
> 3. Re: The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat (Mike Drew)
> 4. Re: The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat (Larry Finch)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 11:16:35 -0800
> From: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
> To: Charles Engles <xcfengles at gmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com, sdpanteras at googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
> Thermostat
> Message-ID: <DB55BC20-C7C1-4AF2-9609-2EC650E085BF at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Guys,
>
> Here is a 180 degree OEM-style 351C thermostat from NAPA auto parts:
>
>
> https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MRD197
>
> Note that it?s stated that it is appropriate for both the 351C and 351W. I suppose it would work fine in a Windsor because the hat wouldn?t interfere with anything, but I have verified that this is a Cleveland-specific unit.
>
> Works good, lasts long time?and costs eight bucks.
>
> The original thermostat was 192 degrees (or 195? I can?t remember) and those are available too from various makers, as are 160 degree units which are arguably much too cold.
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Dec 2, 2018, at 10:53, Charles Engles <xcfengles at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Forum,
>>
>> Another option would be a currently manufactured real Cleveland thermostat, although it is a bit more than $7 (???)
>>
>> https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/high-flo-thermostat/
>>
>> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>>
>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 8:29 AM Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>>> Jack,
>>>
>>> I buy thermostats for people all the time. Conventional OEM-style thermostats for the 351C cost the same as their Windsor counterparts, around $7. It?s true that since Robertshaw discontinued their 351C model, if you want a Robertshaw thermostat you have to buy one that has been customized from a Windsor model, from Marlin Jack, and due to the amount of work involved, those are very expensive indeed!
>>>
>>> The pressed-on ?hat? on the Cleveland thermostat adds to its diameter to partially (not fully) obstruct the orifice in the disc in the block, but I don?t believe it adds significantly to its height? If that supposition is correct, then potentially either a Windsor or Cleveland thermostat could be blocked from fully opening if the disc in the block was solid. There is a significant amount of vertical travel when the thermostat fully opens and although I never thought about it until now, and don?t have an engine to reference to test the hypothesis, it wouldn?t surprise me if you have hit on yet another disadvantage to modifying the cooling system in this manner.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>>> On Dec 2, 2018, at 00:03, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> With some brands of thermostats, if the recirculation port is closed
>>>> off with a plug (small vent hole or not) instead of the std brass ring,
>>>> the 351-C 'thimble' on the end of the thermostat may hit the plug
>>>> before the thermostat fully opens. This could in turn restrict the main
>>>> water flow and cause water temps to be a bit higher. Plus, it's a waste
>>>> of money- the 351C thermostat is significantly more expensive than a
>>>> generic Windsor thermostat. Easy fix: try a Windsor and see!
>>>> My 2A-c-- J DeRyke
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mike Becker <mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; 'San Diego Panteras'
>>>> <sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
>>>> Sent: Sat, Dec 1, 2018 9:33 pm
>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat
>>>> See the link below and the description of 2 flavors of restrictor
>>>> plate. My engine has the solid aluminum plate with the tiny hole.
>>>> But
>>>> I have always run the 351C unique thermostat. My engine has always
>>>> run
>>>> a bit hot, usually over 200, even on the highway. I noticed this
>>>> article says "This unit (restrictor plate with the tiny hole) must be
>>>> used in conjunction with a [1]standard thermostat , you cannot use
>>>> the
>>>> 351C unique thermostat with this block off plate."
>>>> Does anyone know if this is true? Could this be the reason my engine
>>>> runs hot? Actually my engine currently doesn't run at all due to a
>>>> destroyed rod journal. My engine is currently out and in pieces, so
>>>> I'm wondering if I should change to the original big-hole restrictor
>>>> or
>>>> keep the small-hole restrictor and switch to a non-351c standard
>>>> thermostat.
>>>> [2][1]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
>>>> thanks,
>>>> mike
>>>> References
>>>> 1. [2]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
>>>> 2. [3]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> [4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>>> [5]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>>>> use the links above.
>>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>>>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>>>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
>>>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>>>
>>>> References
>>>>
>>>> 1. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
>>>> 2. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
>>>> 3. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
>>>> 4. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>>> 5. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>>
>>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>>>>
>>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>>>
>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
> -------------- next part --------------
> Guys,
>
> Here is a 180 degree OEM-style 351C thermostat from NAPA auto parts:
>
> [1]https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MRD197
>
> Note that it's stated that it is appropriate for both the 351C and
> 351W. I suppose it would work fine in a Windsor because the hat
> wouldn't interfere with anything, but I have verified that this is a
> Cleveland-specific unit.
>
> Works good, lasts long time--and costs eight bucks.
>
> The original thermostat was 192 degrees (or 195? I can't remember) and
> those are available too from various makers, as are 160 degree units
> which are arguably much too cold.
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Dec 2, 2018, at 10:53, Charles Engles <[2]xcfengles at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Forum,
> Another option would be a currently manufactured real
> Cleveland thermostat, although it is a bit more than $7 (???)
>
> [3]https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/high-flo-thermostat/
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
> On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 8:29 AM Mike Drew via DeTomaso
> <[4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Jack,
> I buy thermostats for people all the time. Conventional OEM-style
> thermostats for the 351C cost the same as their Windsor
> counterparts, around $7. It's true that since Robertshaw
> discontinued their 351C model, if you want a Robertshaw thermostat
> you have to buy one that has been customized from a Windsor model,
> from Marlin Jack, and due to the amount of work involved, those are
> very expensive indeed!
> The pressed-on `hat' on the Cleveland thermostat adds to its
> diameter to partially (not fully) obstruct the orifice in the disc
> in the block, but I don't believe it adds significantly to its
> height? If that supposition is correct, then potentially either a
> Windsor or Cleveland thermostat could be blocked from fully opening
> if the disc in the block was solid. There is a significant amount
> of vertical travel when the thermostat fully opens and although I
> never thought about it until now, and don't have an engine to
> reference to test the hypothesis, it wouldn't surprise me if you
> have hit on yet another disadvantage to modifying the cooling system
> in this manner.
> Mike
> Sent from my iPad
> > On Dec 2, 2018, at 00:03, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
> <[5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> >
> > With some brands of thermostats, if the recirculation port is
> closed
> > off with a plug (small vent hole or not) instead of the std
> brass ring,
> > the 351-C 'thimble' on the end of the thermostat may hit the
> plug
> > before the thermostat fully opens. This could in turn restrict
> the main
> > water flow and cause water temps to be a bit higher. Plus, it's
> a waste
> > of money- the 351C thermostat is significantly more expensive
> than a
> > generic Windsor thermostat. Easy fix: try a Windsor and see!
> > My 2A-c-- J DeRyke
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mike Becker <[6]mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
> > To: detomaso <[7]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; 'San Diego
> Panteras'
> > <[8]sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
> > Sent: Sat, Dec 1, 2018 9:33 pm
> > Subject: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
> Thermostat
> > See the link below and the description of 2 flavors of
> restrictor
> > plate. My engine has the solid aluminum plate with the tiny
> hole.
> > But
> > I have always run the 351C unique thermostat. My engine has
> always
> > run
> > a bit hot, usually over 200, even on the highway. I noticed
> this
> > article says "This unit (restrictor plate with the tiny hole)
> must be
> > used in conjunction with a [1]standard thermostat , you cannot
> use
> > the
> > 351C unique thermostat with this block off plate."
> > Does anyone know if this is true? Could this be the reason my
> engine
> > runs hot? Actually my engine currently doesn't run at all due
> to a
> > destroyed rod journal. My engine is currently out and in
> pieces, so
> > I'm wondering if I should change to the original big-hole
> restrictor
> > or
> > keep the small-hole restrictor and switch to a non-351c
> standard
> > thermostat.
> >
> [2][1][9]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.ht
> ml
> > thanks,
> > mike
> > References
> > 1. [2][10]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
> > 2.
> [3][11]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [4][12]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > [5][13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.)
> > use the links above.
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
> forward any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
> the
> > list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive
> > or approve the archiving of list messages.
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
> [14]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
> > 2. [15]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
> > 3.
> [16]https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
> > 4. mailto:[17]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > 5. [18]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [19]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > [20]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.) use the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
> the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [21]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [22]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.) use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
> the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MRD197
> 2. mailto:xcfengles at gmail.com
> 3. https://www.tmeyerinc.com/product/high-flo-thermostat/
> 4. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 5. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 6. mailto:mikebecker679 at gmail.com
> 7. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 8. mailto:sdpanteras at googlegroups.com
> 9. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
> 10. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
> 11. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
> 12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 14. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
> 15. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/thm170.html
> 16. https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/waterrestrictplate.html
> 17. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 18. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 19. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 20. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 21. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 22. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 19:32:12 -0800
> From: Larry Finch <fresnofinches at aol.com>
> To: Email List Address For Posting <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the Thermostat
> Message-ID: <F431FD47-8840-4350-A518-6AC99D7DD939 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> All,
>
> A stock Pantera 351C cooling system has five (six with pulley) specific design components in the engine.
>
> Water pump WITH bypass passage
> Water pump impeller WITHOUT backing plate
>
> Restrictor plate in block
>
> High-flow thermostat*
> Thermostat with ?hat?
>
> * I have heard/read multiple times, and have personally come to believe, that the Cleveland OEM thermostat was the high-flow version with the hat.
>
> Tim Meyer (he is the vendor who took over the Todd Buttermore Cleveland project and is now providing aluminum and iron blocks) has retooled the original high flow Cleveland thermostat($32), as Thomas and Chuck have previously mentioned. He also has a proper restrictor plate ($20) ($49-the set) for the block. 160-180-195 versions.
>
> Personally I have no problem spending $32 to purchase an OEM-correct high-flow thermostat from a vendor who has stepped forward and made them readily available.
>
> I don?t believe the money saved with a NAPA standard-flow thermostat justifies the restriction to coolant flow that must surely come with that non-OEM style.
>
> Now in practice, we all know there are many approaches to cooling that will provide acceptable performance.
>
> Example:
>
> 2511 when purchased had the pinhole restrictor plate, a Windsor standard flow thermostat, and the Weiand water pump which does not have the bypass passage. That engine did not run hot, did not boil over; performed just fine year after year. It actually had zero out of the five design components mentioned above. :-o ;-)
>
> Maybe the Weiand water pump impeller that has a backing plate increased water flow enough that the standard flow thermostat restriction was neutralized?
>
> Whatever, it worked.
>
> Perhaps logic, and respect for the original Ford-engineered system, would seem to suggest the standard .... starting.... point for any 351C cooling system should incorporate all five of the above design components.
>
> Then, if you have cooling issues you know that you have at least started with the correct OEM design.
>
> Larry
>
> Impeller backing plate
> Undersized WP pulley
> Single-dual-pass radiator
> 160-180-195 thermostats
> Brass-aluminum radiator
> Upright or laydown
> And..........and..... :-)
>
>
> Sent from me using a magic, handheld electronic gizmo.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 19:44:33 -0800
> From: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
> To: Larry Finch <fresnofinches at aol.com>, De Tomaso Forum
> <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
> Thermostat
> Message-ID: <61045CD9-F73E-4686-80A4-B3505716C231 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Larry,
>
> Panteras came with standard thermostats. Standard thermostats are not ?high flow?. Those weren?t even invented back then, I don?t think.
>
> I have removed original thermostats from original Pantera engines. I used to have one as a visual aid but I must have thrown it out, as I can?t find it now. It was seriously crusty but still worked. Standard style, Ford markings, 19x degrees (192 or 195, I still can?t remember).
>
> I?m with you?I would buy the Tim Meyer version over the cheap ones, although it?s just for superstitious reasons. I can?t say I have ever heard of a quantifiable improvement that resulted from using one over the other.
>
> John Christian once explained to me the argument against blocking off the bypass passage (either with a water pump that lacks the port, or a blockoff plate). Thermal shock, cavitation, steam pockets etc were some of the reasons he gave.
>
> He helped invent the 351C so I?ll take him at his word! Note that I don?t claim any specific expertise. I just know and trust some really smart people. :)
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Dec 2, 2018, at 19:32, Larry Finch via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>>
>> All,
>>
>> A stock Pantera 351C cooling system has five (six with pulley) specific design components in the engine.
>>
>> Water pump WITH bypass passage
>> Water pump impeller WITHOUT backing plate
>>
>> Restrictor plate in block
>>
>> High-flow thermostat*
>> Thermostat with ?hat?
>>
>> * I have heard/read multiple times, and have personally come to believe, that the Cleveland OEM thermostat was the high-flow version with the hat.
>>
>> Tim Meyer (he is the vendor who took over the Todd Buttermore Cleveland project and is now providing aluminum and iron blocks) has retooled the original high flow Cleveland thermostat($32), as Thomas and Chuck have previously mentioned. He also has a proper restrictor plate ($20) ($49-the set) for the block. 160-180-195 versions.
>>
>> Personally I have no problem spending $32 to purchase an OEM-correct high-flow thermostat from a vendor who has stepped forward and made them readily available.
>>
>> I don?t believe the money saved with a NAPA standard-flow thermostat justifies the restriction to coolant flow that must surely come with that non-OEM style.
>>
>> Now in practice, we all know there are many approaches to cooling that will provide acceptable performance.
>>
>> Example:
>>
>> 2511 when purchased had the pinhole restrictor plate, a Windsor standard flow thermostat, and the Weiand water pump which does not have the bypass passage. That engine did not run hot, did not boil over; performed just fine year after year. It actually had zero out of the five design components mentioned above. :-o ;-)
>>
>> Maybe the Weiand water pump impeller that has a backing plate increased water flow enough that the standard flow thermostat restriction was neutralized?
>>
>> Whatever, it worked.
>>
>> Perhaps logic, and respect for the original Ford-engineered system, would seem to suggest the standard .... starting.... point for any 351C cooling system should incorporate all five of the above design components.
>>
>> Then, if you have cooling issues you know that you have at least started with the correct OEM design.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> Impeller backing plate
>> Undersized WP pulley
>> Single-dual-pass radiator
>> 160-180-195 thermostats
>> Brass-aluminum radiator
>> Upright or laydown
>> And..........and..... :-)
>>
>>
>> Sent from me using a magic, handheld electronic gizmo.
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2018 23:44:43 -0800
> From: Larry Finch <fresnofinches at aol.com>
> To: Email List Address For Posting <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] The Water Restrictor Plate Below the
> Thermostat
> Message-ID: <EEC51E23-615B-4519-BEB0-F585EAC72B5C at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> All,
>
> I am quite sure hi-flow thermostats were available for the Cleveland, as evidenced by this drawing attributed to, and certainly appearing to be from, Ford.
>
> It clearly depicts a hi-flow style thermostat.
>
> Larry
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: image2.jpeg
> Type: image/jpeg
> Size: 277882 bytes
> Desc: not available
> URL: <http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/20181202/11aca9ab/attachment-0002.jpeg>
> -------------- next part --------------
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: image3.jpeg
> Type: image/jpeg
> Size: 45530 bytes
> Desc: not available
> URL: <http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/20181202/11aca9ab/attachment-0003.jpeg>
> -------------- next part --------------
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of DeTomaso Digest, Vol 174, Issue 3
> ****************************************
More information about the DeTomaso
mailing list