[DeTomaso] 351C New Parts 73 Pantera

[Mike Drew]

Dave,

Lori’s rebuild was prompted by the same thing. One lobe on her cam went flat and the intake valve wasn’t opening. 

A Holley carb won’t fit on the stock intake without an adapter. The secondaries will never open because the intake is a spreadbore and the carb is a square bore.  So I hope you have an aluminum spacer between them!

Mike

Sent from my iPad

> On Aug 10, 2018, at 16:56, "djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com" <djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com> wrote:
> 
> Mike,
> 
> Thanks for the good advice. I am fine with the engine as it is which is mostly stock except for a Holley 700 double pumper, MSD ignition, Hall big bores and yes the original intake.So what has prompted my questions into a rebuild.The most noticeable condition is engine noise described as: a persistent ticking and for example  when accelerating in 3rd gear from 2500 rpm to 3500 the ticking become more of a loud rattle. Until this began the engine ran fine with no previous issues. 
> I do want to retain as much originality as possible in any work done.
> 
> Dave
> Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone
> 
> ------ Original message------
> From: Mike Drew
> Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2018 11:11 AM
> To: djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com;De Tomaso Forum;
> Cc:
> Subject:Re: [DeTomaso] 351C New Parts
> 
> David,
> 
> Before you do ANYTHING you need to be honest with yourself and decide what kind of engine you want. The possibilities are endless, from mild grocery-getter to rip-snorting monster. 
> 
> Often engine builders will simply make assumptions and build you an engine that THEY think you want, rather than the engine YOU think you want. That often leads to excessive expense and/or unhappiness. 
> 
> Be honest with your self and determine what you are trying to achieve. Then communicate that very clearly to the engine builder.
> 
> Part of the problem is that an engine is like a house. If you are having a home made, the process doesn’t start with the contractor wielding a saw and a hammer. It starts with an architect that produces a design, and then the builder builds it. The problem with the 351C is that it is unique in many ways, and most perfectly good engine builders lack the knowledge to function as an architect first.  
> 
> My first engine was built by a great builder who had no clue about the Cleveland. It was built extremely well with excellent parts that were not designed to work together, and the resultant engine was really terrible. An engine is a SYSTEM and all components need to be harmonized. The camshaft is the heart of the engine, but variations in cylinder head, intake and exhaust can mean that the same cam is excellent in one engine and terrible in another. 
> 
> There are some universal constants. Stock valves routinely break and destroy engines, so at a minimum any 351C rebuild should include the fitment of one-piece stainless valves. I personally consider it pointless to fit expensive valves in a terrible open-chamber cylinder head, so unless your engine already has 1971-spec closed-chamber heads, I would definitely advocate sourcing some (assuming you want to retain originality). By the time you have bought them and had them reconditioned and rebuilt, you will probably have spent $1200 or so, and at that point you’re not far off from arguably superior aluminum heads. Edelbrock heads are designed to work with stock displacement engines and they are a pretty cost-effective upgrade. But of course you will have then moved away from the ‘stock’ path, and also they require a different intake manifold. 
> 
> Do you currently still have the iro n intake and stock carb? Those are few and far between these days because they are so terrible. The vast majority of cars out there with more or less standard engines have an Edelbrock Performer 4V intake and some sort of Holley carb. Those are an excellent choice for a moderate engine. If you have the original items, it’s likely the car runs pretty terribly. 
> 
> What is prompting your desire to rebuild the engine anyway? Is it smoking or burning oil excessively?  If the only issue you are having is poor driveability, and you still have the stock intake and carb, you might see tremendous gains just by installing the Edelbrock/Holley combo. A 600 or 650 is all you want. 
> 
> Tell us more?
> 
> Mike
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Aug 10, 2018, at 07:40, "djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com" <djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Mike. You have given me a lot of food for thought. The local guy in Chicago specializes in Mustang restorations. I will ask him to review the article on Lori's rebuild.
>> Maybe he will agree to ship the engine to Missouri.
>> 
>> Dave
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Dave
>> 
-------------- next part --------------
   Dave,

   Lori's rebuild was prompted by the same thing. One lobe on her cam went
   flat and the intake valve wasn't opening.

   A Holley carb won't fit on the stock intake without an adapter. The
   secondaries will never open because the intake is a spreadbore and the
   carb is a square bore.  So I hope you have an aluminum spacer between
   them!

   Mike
   Sent from my iPad
   On Aug 10, 2018, at 16:56, "[1]djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com"
   <[2]djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com> wrote:

   Mike,
   Thanks for the good advice. I am fine with the engine as it is which is
   mostly stock except for a Holley 700 double pumper, MSD ignition, Hall
   big bores and yes the original [3]intake.So what has prompted my
   questions into a [4]rebuild.The most noticeable condition is engine
   noise described as: a persistent ticking and for example  when
   accelerating in 3rd gear from 2500 rpm to 3500 the ticking become more
   of a loud rattle. Until this began the engine ran fine with no previous
   issues.
   I do want to retain as much originality as possible in any work done.
   Dave
   Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone
   ------ Original message------
   From: Mike Drew
   Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2018 11:11 AM
   To: [5]djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com;De Tomaso Forum;
   Cc:
   Subject:Re: [DeTomaso] 351C New Parts
   David,
   Before you do ANYTHING you need to be honest with yourself and decide
   what kind of engine you want. The possibilities are endless, from mild
   grocery-getter to rip-snorting monster.
   Often engine builders will simply make assumptions and build you an
   engine that THEY think you want, rather than the engine YOU think you
   want. That often leads to excessive expense and/or unhappiness.
   Be honest with your self and determine what you are trying to achieve.
   Then communicate that very clearly to the engine builder.
   Part of the problem is that an engine is like a house. If you are
   having a home made, the process doesn't start with the contractor
   wielding a saw and a hammer. It starts with an architect that produces
   a design, and then the builder builds it. The problem with the 351C is
   that it is unique in many ways, and most perfectly good engine builders
   lack the knowledge to function as an architect first.
   My first engine was built by a great builder who had no clue about the
   Cleveland. It was built extremely well with excellent parts that were
   not designed to work together, and the resultant engine was really
   terrible. An engine is a SYSTEM and all components need to be
   harmonized. The camshaft is the heart of the engine, but variations in
   cylinder head, intake and exhaust can mean that the same cam is
   excellent in one engine and terrible in another.
   There are some universal constants. Stock valves routinely break and
   destroy engines, so at a minimum any 351C rebuild should include the
   fitment of one-piece stainless valves. I personally consider it
   pointless to fit expensive valves in a terrible open-chamber cylinder
   head, so unless your engine already has 1971-spec closed-chamber heads,
   I would definitely advocate sourcing some (assuming you want to retain
   originality). By the time you have bought them and had them
   reconditioned and rebuilt, you will probably have spent $1200 or so,
   and at that point you're not far off from arguably superior aluminum
   heads. Edelbrock heads are designed to work with stock displacement
   engines and they are a pretty cost-effective upgrade. But of course you
   will have then moved away from the `stock' path, and also they require
   a different intake manifold.
   Do you currently still have the iro n intake and stock carb? Those are
   few and far between these days because they are so terrible. The vast
   majority of cars out there with more or less standard engines have an
   Edelbrock Performer 4V intake and some sort of Holley carb. Those are
   an excellent choice for a moderate engine. If you have the original
   items, it's likely the car runs pretty terribly.
   What is prompting your desire to rebuild the engine anyway? Is it
   smoking or burning oil excessively?  If the only issue you are having
   is poor driveability, and you still have the stock intake and carb, you
   might see tremendous gains just by installing the Edelbrock/Holley
   combo. A 600 or 650 is all you want.
   Tell us more?
   Mike
   Sent from my iPad
   On Aug 10, 2018, at 07:40, "[6]djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com"
   <[7]djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com> wrote:

   Thanks Mike. You have given me a lot of food for thought. The local guy
   in Chicago specializes in Mustang restorations. I will ask him to
   review the article on Lori's rebuild.
   Maybe he will agree to ship the engine to Missouri.
   Dave
   Dave

References

   1. mailto:djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com
   2. mailto:djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com
   3. http://intake.So/
   4. http://rebuild.Th/
   5. mailto:djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com
   6. mailto:djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com
   7. mailto:djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com