[DeTomaso] 351C New Parts
Mike Drew
MikeLDrew at aol.com
Fri Aug 10 12:10:50 EDT 2018
David,
Before you do ANYTHING you need to be honest with yourself and decide what kind of engine you want. The possibilities are endless, from mild grocery-getter to rip-snorting monster.
Often engine builders will simply make assumptions and build you an engine that THEY think you want, rather than the engine YOU think you want. That often leads to excessive expense and/or unhappiness.
Be honest with yourself and determine what you are trying to achieve. Then communicate that very clearly to the engine builder.
Part of the problem is that an engine is like a house. If you are having a home made, the process doesn’t start with the contractor wielding a saw and a hammer. It starts with an architect that produces a design, and then the builder builds it. The problem with the 351C is that it is unique in many ways, and most perfectly good engine builders lack the knowledge to function as an architect first.
My first engine was built by a great builder who had no clue about the Cleveland. It was built extremely well with excellent parts that were not designed to work together, and the resultant engine was really terrible. An engine is a SYSTEM and all components need to be harmonized. The camshaft is the heart of the engine, but variations in cylinder head, intake and exhaust can mean that the same cam is excellent in one engine and terrible in another.
There are some universal constants. Stock valves routinely break and destroy engines, so at a minimum any 351C rebuild should include the fitment of one-piece stainless valves. I personally consider it pointless to fit expensive valves in a terrible open-chamber cylinder head, so unless your engine already has 1971-spec closed-chamber heads, I would definitely advocate sourcing some (assuming you want to retain originality). By the time you have bought them and had them reconditioned and rebuilt, you will probably have spent $1200 or so, and at that point you’re not far off from arguably superior aluminum heads. Edelbrock heads are designed to work with stock displacement engines and they are a pretty cost-effective upgrade. But of course you will have then moved away from the ‘stock’ path, and also they require a different intake manifold.
Do you currently still have the iron intake and stock carb? Those are few and far between these days because they are so terrible. The vast majority of cars out there with more or less standard engines have an Edelbrock Performer 4V intake and some sort of Holley carb. Those are an excellent choice for a moderate engine. If you have the original items, it’s likely the car runs pretty terribly.
What is prompting your desire to rebuild the engine anyway? Is it smoking or burning oil excessively? If the only issue you are having is poor driveability, and you still have the stock intake and carb, you might see tremendous gains just by installing the Edelbrock/Holley combo. A 600 or 650 is all you want.
Tell us more?
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 10, 2018, at 07:40, "djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com" <djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Mike. You have given me a lot of food for thought. The local guy in Chicago specializes in Mustang restorations. I will ask him to review the article on Lori's rebuild.
> Maybe he will agree to ship the engine to Missouri.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> Dave
>
> Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone
>
> ------ Original message------
> From: Mike Drew
> Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2018 8:40 AM
> To: djenkins at va nguardtrailer.com;
> Cc: Charles Engles;Detomaso;
> Subject:Re: [DeTomaso] 351C New Parts
>
> Dave,
>
> I think your budget is much too high considering your extremely modest ambitions. Either lower your budget to match your ambitions, or raise your ambitions to match your budget.
>
> I would be extremely reticent about using a local shop, unless they have EXTENSIVE experience with the 351C. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area (well, just outside of it actually) and while there are some excellent engine shops here, none had what I felt was adequate knowledge of the peculiarities of the 351C. This is why both my engine (408 inch roller cam aluminum head street monster) and Lori’s engine (which you hopefully just read about) were packed up and shipped to Dave McClain in Missouri.
>
> The resultant engines were both far better than what we likely could have achieved locally, and even factoring in the shipping expenses (about $800 each way) they were also considerably cheaper than what we would have paid locally.
>
> Lori’s engine is relatively standard yet is substantially better than stock, and the engine build (including intake manifold porting and dyno tuning) was under $3000 (plus shipping). Meanwhile, a guy near me who didn’t know any better had a local shop rebuild his engine, and they made all sorts of design mistakes along the way (such as retaining the pathetic open-chambered iron heads) and he paid more than $7000! I can guarantee that Lori’s car will easily walk away from his, while still retaining all the virtues of a stock engine (smooth idle, good brake vacuum, good economy, and a very broad powerband), and for less than half the cost to boot.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Aug 9, 2018, at 15:37, "djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com" wrote:
> >
> > Charles
> > Rebuild the engine. I want to maintain as much stock as possible.
> > Casual use. A local shop will do the work Budget $6,000?
> > Thanks
> > Dave
> > Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone
> >
> > ------ Original message------
> > From: Charles Engles
> > Date: Thu, Aug 9, 2018 4:00 PM
> > To: 'David Jenkins';'Detomaso';
> > Cc:
> > Subject:RE: [DeTomaso] 351C New Parts
> > Dear Dave,
> >
> >
> > Could you provide more details?
> >
> > Rebuilding a 351C, heads, short block, etc?
> >
> > If you're rebuilding the engine, then stock stroke or
> > stroker? What is the expected purpose of the engine: track, street, casual
> > use, stock re-build? EFI or carb?
> >
> > Budget? You're doing the engine assembly?
> >
> >
> > Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DeTomaso [mailto[1]:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf
> > Of David Jenkins
> > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 3:46 PM
> > To: 'Detomaso'
> > Subject: [DeTomaso] 351C New Parts
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Someone please remind me where to find the list of recommended new parts for
> > a rebuild.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks Dave
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. mailto::detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
-------------- next part --------------
David,
Before you do ANYTHING you need to be honest with yourself and decide
what kind of engine you want. The possibilities are endless, from mild
grocery-getter to rip-snorting monster.
Often engine builders will simply make assumptions and build you an
engine that THEY think you want, rather than the engine YOU think you
want. That often leads to excessive expense and/or unhappiness.
Be honest with yourself and determine what you are trying to achieve.
Then communicate that very clearly to the engine builder.
Part of the problem is that an engine is like a house. If you are
having a home made, the process doesn't start with the contractor
wielding a saw and a hammer. It starts with an architect that produces
a design, and then the builder builds it. The problem with the 351C is
that it is unique in many ways, and most perfectly good engine builders
lack the knowledge to function as an architect first.
My first engine was built by a great builder who had no clue about the
Cleveland. It was built extremely well with excellent parts that were
not designed to work together, and the resultant engine was really
terrible. An engine is a SYSTEM and all components need to be
harmonized. The camshaft is the heart of the engine, but variations in
cylinder head, intake and exhaust can mean that the same cam is
excellent in one engine and terrible in another.
There are some universal constants. Stock valves routinely break and
destroy engines, so at a minimum any 351C rebuild should include the
fitment of one-piece stainless valves. I personally consider it
pointless to fit expensive valves in a terrible open-chamber cylinder
head, so unless your engine already has 1971-spec closed-chamber heads,
I would definitely advocate sourcing some (assuming you want to retain
originality). By the time you have bought them and had them
reconditioned and rebuilt, you will probably have spent $1200 or so,
and at that point you're not far off from arguably superior aluminum
heads. Edelbrock heads are designed to work with stock displacement
engines and they are a pretty cost-effective upgrade. But of course you
will have then moved away from the `stock' path, and also they require
a different intake manifold.
Do you currently still have the iron intake and stock carb? Those are
few and far between these days because they are so terrible. The vast
majority of cars out there with more or less standard engines have an
Edelbrock Performer 4V intake and some sort of Holley carb. Those are
an excellent choice for a moderate engine. If you have the original
items, it's likely the car runs pretty terribly.
What is prompting your desire to rebuild the engine anyway? Is it
smoking or burning oil excessively? If the only issue you are having
is poor driveability, and you still have the stock intake and carb, you
might see tremendous gains just by installing the Edelbrock/Holley
combo. A 600 or 650 is all you want.
Tell us more?
Mike
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 10, 2018, at 07:40, "[1]djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com"
<[2]djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com> wrote:
Thanks Mike. You have given me a lot of food for thought. The local guy
in Chicago specializes in Mustang restorations. I will ask him to
review the article on Lori's rebuild.
Maybe he will agree to ship the engine to Missouri.
Dave
Dave
Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone
------ Original message------
From: Mike Drew
Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2018 8:40 AM
To: [3]djenkins at va nguardtrailer.com;
Cc: Charles Engles;Detomaso;
Subject:Re: [DeTomaso] 351C New Parts
Dave,
I think your budget is much too high considering your extremely modest ambitions
. Either lower your budget to match your ambitions, or raise your ambitions to m
atch your budget.
I would be extremely reticent about using a local shop, unless they have EXTENSI
VE experience with the 351C. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area (well, just o
utside of it actually) and while there are some excellent engine shops here, non
e had what I felt was adequate knowledge of the peculiarities of the 351C. This
is why both my engine (408 inch roller cam aluminum head street monster) and Lo
ri's engine (which you hopefully just read about) were packed up and shipped to
Dave McClain in Missouri.
The resultant engines were both far better than what we likely could have achiev
ed locally, and even factoring in the shipping expenses (about $800 each way) th
ey were also considerably cheaper than what we would have paid locally.
Lori's engine is relatively standard yet is substantially better than stock, and
the engine build (including intake manifold porting and dyno tuning) was under
$3000 (plus shipping). Meanwhile, a guy near me who didn't know any better had a
local shop rebuild his engine, and they made all sorts of design mistakes along
the way (such as retaining the pathetic open-chambered iron heads) and he paid
more than $7000! I can guarantee that Lori's car will easily walk away from his
, while still retaining all the virtues of a stock engine (smooth idle, good bra
ke vacuum, good economy, and a very broad powerband), and for less than half the
cost to boot.
Mike
Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 9, 2018, at 15:37, [4]"djenkins at vanguardtrailer.com" wrote:
>
> Charles
> Rebuild the engine. I want to maintain as much stock as possible.
> Casual use. A local shop will do the work Budget $6,000?
> Thanks
> Dave
> Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone
>
> ------ Original message------
> From: Charles Engles
> Date: Thu, Aug 9, 2018 4:00 PM
> To: 'David Jenkins';'Detomaso';
> Cc:
> Subject:RE: [DeTomaso] 351C New Parts
> Dear Dave,
>
>
> Could you provide more details?
>
> Rebuilding a 351C, heads, short block, etc?
>
> If you're rebuilding the engine, then stock stroke or
> stroker? What is the expected purpose of the engine: track, street, casual
> use, stock re-build? EFI or carb?
>
> Budget? You're doing the engine assembly?
>
>
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso [mailto[1][5]:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On Beha
lf
> Of David Jenkins
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 3:46 PM
> To: 'Detomaso'
> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351C New Parts
>
>
>
>
>
> Someone please remind me where to find the list of recommended new parts for
> a rebuild.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks Dave
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[6]:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
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>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the
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>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message
posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also gran
t the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of l
ist messages.
References
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