[DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few years?
Bill Moore
bill at incendium.com
Wed Oct 18 12:33:28 EDT 2017
Yes we jetted and re-jetted my 750DP carb a couple of times on the dyno, man that was a fun day (Apr2015), haven’t touched it since and we have over 20,000 miles on the engine. June of this year drove down to the POCA rally and back we got 18.57 USMPG, door to door. Yesterday I took it out to the car wash (oh my water !), It fired up first time right away, it had sat for 39 days, oh and the battery is a basic Interstate at least six years old. DAMN ! I love my engine with the Holley 750 DP.
YRMV
Cheers:
Please use my bill at incendium.com email address in all messages.
Bill Moore
Incendium Supply Ltd.
Suite 416, #305-4625 Varsity Drive N.W.
Calgary, AB T3A 0Z9
403.860.4300
From: jgkrenton at comcast.net [mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net]
Sent: October-17-17 9:20 PM
To: McCall, Charles
Cc: bill at incendium.com; Ken Green; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few years?
Charlie/Bill:
Just stumbled over this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sQJPZYSoUI
Holley Carb VS Holley Throttle Body EFI on the dyno...
For your continued amusement.
Jeff 2467
_____
From: "Charles McCall" <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
To: bill at incendium.com, "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>, detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2017 10:46:58 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few years?
Fair question. There’s nothing inherently wrong with a carburetor after all…
It’s a very long answer, but the Reader’s Digest version is the following. I bought my Holley from a Pantera vendor many moons ago and it ran horribly on my car. It was supposed to be set up “for a Pantera”, but thinking about that, what is a Pantera engine? A stock, low compression ’74 with all the smog stuff installed? A ’71 high compression engine? A 408 stroker? There’s no way one carb could be set up to handle all those situations. And out of the box, on my particular engine it stumbled all over itself and ran very poorly.
So I ordered a complete set of jets and started there. Again summarizing the story, after swapping jets for weeks and weeks on end, things improved but still weren’t “right”. So I sent my carb off to a carb specialist who, armed with all the data regarding my engine, blueprinted, flowed, and rebuilt it. When it came back it worked very, very well.
But I think it could work better. Mike Drew has made a pointed comment or two about the fact that it’s hard to follow me due to the birds falling out of the sky behind me due to CO poisoning… A good friend followed me around at a car event last year and discretely positioned himself in front of me so he could remove his oxygen mask.. The temperature of the planet raises a couple of degrees every time I start the engine in my garage… it appears to be running a shade rich.
Everyone is different, but I’d rather be driving my car than monkeying with the jets by myself, far from anyone who actually knows what they are doing. In an ideal world, if the EFI works like I’d like it to, it would automatically completely optimize the carburation as opposed to my trial-and-error, or the paper experience of an expert. I’ve been riding my Benelli Sei quite a bit recently, and it is such a fantastic feeling to enjoy a motor that has the carburation dead-nuts-on. The engine just runs soooo well. The Pantera runs well, but I think it could run better. Or at least that doubt would be solved…
Additionally, I failed emissions testing last year the first time through, and just squeaked by during the retest after cleaning the K&N filter. Not sure if all this is related, but since this carb has been in use for 18 years now, I’ve been thinking of rebuilding it. But instead of rebuilding it, if the EFI works like I hope it does and the price difference isn’t ALL that great…. Maybe? Hence my question.
From: bill at incendium.com [mailto:bill at incendium.com]
Sent: sábado, 14 de octubre de 2017 19:21
To: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>; 'Ken Green' <kenn_green at yahoo.com>; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few years?
Why change a very good carburetor set up ?
Luv my 750 DP.
Cheers
Bill Moore
Calgary
-------- Original message --------
From: Charles McCall < <mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com> charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Date: 2017-10-14 11:06 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: 'Ken Green' < <mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com> kenn_green at yahoo.com>, <mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few years?
Thanks, Ken and Jeff.. partially answering my own question I see FITech, MSD, and Holley all offer systems that appear to be the panacea.
Roughly $1000 for just the unit, or $1200 with a fuel pump and complete installation kit. The reviews for the three seem to be similar – the majority of people are thrilled, but there’s a small but consistent minority that had serious problems. Cutting and pasting from reviews:
“ I received 2 defective units that would never sync up to the ECU and my final 3rd Sniper finally did work.”
“Quit running after 15 miles
Summit Racing Verified Purchase
My car ran beautifully at first then quit. Throttle body is not reading a rpm signal. All connections have been checked. I await return paper work to send the unit back.”
Most people are pretty pleased though. Some comments about installation being a little more complicated than promised. Any other firsthand feedback regarding installation on a Pantera?
From: Ken Green [ <mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com> mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com]
Sent: sábado, 14 de octubre de 2017 18:58
To: Charles McCall < <mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com> charlesmccall at gmail.com>; <mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few years?
I think FAST, Holley, and MSD all have bolt on single 4V throttle body EFIs that practically tune themselves, but you will need am EFI fuel pump and I'm pretty sure a O2 sensor in the exhaust. They all seem to have these for around $1,000.
Ken
_____
From: Charles McCall < < <mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com> mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com> <mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com> charlesmccall at gmail.com>
To: < <mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> <mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2017 5:52 AM
Subject: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few years?
What's the current state of advancement in the fuel injection world?
Has someone perfected a bolt-on system that can substitute a 4bbl carb,
can be installed in minutes, only requires a couple of wires and an
exhaust bung, and that's it?
It would automatically map itself by just driving around, and give
absolutely crisp performance. It wouldn't require fiddling, and would
work just as well as a carb that's perfectly, absolutely, dead-nuts on.
Oh, and it would cost less than $50. Just kidding, but perhaps under
$1000 for everything. Anyone have any first-hand experience?
_______________________________________________
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Thanks, Ken and Jeff.. partially answering my own question I see
FITech, MSD, and Holley all offer systems that appear to be the
panacea.
Roughly $1000 for just the unit, or $1200 with a fuel pump and complete
installation kit. The reviews for the three seem to be similar - the
majority of people are thrilled, but there's a small but consistent
minority that had serious problems. Cutting and pasting from reviews:
" I received 2 defective units that would never sync up to the ECU and
my final 3rd Sniper finally did work."
"Quit running after 15 miles
Summit Racing Summit Racing Verified Purchase
My car ran beautifully at first then quit. Throttle body is not reading
a rpm signal. All connections have been checked. I await return paper
work to send the unit back."
Most people are pretty pleased though. Some comments about installation
being a little more complicated than promised. Any other firsthand
feedback regarding installation on a Pantera?
From: Ken Green [ <mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com> mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com]
Sent: sabado, 14 de octubre de 2017 18:58
To: Charles McCall < <mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com> charlesmccall at gmail.com>;
<mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few
years?
I think FAST, Holley, and MSD all have bolt on single 4V throttle body
EFIs that practically tune themselves, but you will need am EFI fuel
pump and I'm pretty sure a O2 sensor in the exhaust. They all seem to
have these for around $1,000.
Ken
_______________________________________________________________________
From: Charles McCall <[1] <mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com> charlesmccall at gmail.com>
To: [2] <mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2017 5:52 AM
Subject: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few years?
What's the current state of advancement in the fuel injection world?
Has someone perfected a bolt-on system that can substitute a 4bbl
carb,
can be installed in minutes, only requires a couple of wires and an
exhaust bung, and that's it?
It would automatically map itself by just driving around, and give
absolutely crisp performance. It wouldn't require fiddling, and would
work just as well as a carb that's perfectly, absolutely, dead-nuts
on.
Oh, and it would cost less than $50. Just kidding, but perhaps under
$1000 for everything. Anyone have any first-hand experience?
_______________________________________________
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-------------- next part --------------
Yes we jetted and re-jetted my 750DP carb a couple of times on the
dyno, man that was a fun day (Apr2015), haven't touched it since and we
have over 20,000 miles on the engine. June of this year drove down to
the POCA rally and back we got 18.57 USMPG, door to door. Yesterday I
took it out to the car wash (oh my water !), It fired up first time
right away, it had sat for 39 days, oh and the battery is a basic
Interstate at least six years old. DAMN ! I love my engine with the
Holley 750 DP.
YRMV
Cheers:
Please use my bill at incendium.com email address in all messages.
Bill Moore
Incendium Supply Ltd.
Suite 416, #305-4625 Varsity Drive N.W.
Calgary, AB T3A 0Z9
403.860.4300
From: jgkrenton at comcast.net [mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net]
Sent: October-17-17 9:20 PM
To: McCall, Charles
Cc: bill at incendium.com; Ken Green; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few
years?
Charlie/Bill:
Just stumbled over this:
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sQJPZYSoUI
Holley Carb VS Holley Throttle Body EFI on the dyno...
For your continued amusement.
Jeff 2467
_______________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles McCall" <[2]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
To: [3]bill at incendium.com, "Ken Green" <[4]kenn_green at yahoo.com>,
[5]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2017 10:46:58 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few
years?
Fair question. There's nothing inherently wrong with a carburetor after
all...
It's a very long answer, but the Reader's Digest version is the
following. I bought my Holley from a Pantera vendor many moons ago and
it ran horribly on my car. It was supposed to be set up "for a
Pantera", but thinking about that, what is a Pantera engine? A stock,
low compression '74 with all the smog stuff installed? A '71 high
compression engine? A 408 stroker? There's no way one carb could be set
up to handle all those situations. And out of the box, on my particular
engine it stumbled all over itself and ran very poorly.
So I ordered a complete set of jets and started there. Again
summarizing the story, after swapping jets for weeks and weeks on end,
things improved but still weren't "right". So I sent my carb off to a
carb specialist who, armed with all the data regarding my engine,
blueprinted, flowed, and rebuilt it. When it came back it worked very,
very well.
But I think it could work better. Mike Drew has made a pointed comment
or two about the fact that it's hard to follow me due to the birds
falling out of the sky behind me due to CO poisoning... A good friend
followed me around at a car event last year and discretely positioned
himself in front of me so he could remove his oxygen mask.. The
temperature of the planet raises a couple of degrees every time I start
the engine in my garage... it appears to be running a shade rich.
Everyone is different, but I'd rather be driving my car than monkeying
with the jets by myself, far from anyone who actually knows what they
are doing. In an ideal world, if the EFI works like I'd like it to, it
would automatically completely optimize the carburation as opposed to
my trial-and-error, or the paper experience of an expert. I've been
riding my Benelli Sei quite a bit recently, and it is such a fantastic
feeling to enjoy a motor that has the carburation dead-nuts-on. The
engine just runs soooo well. The Pantera runs well, but I think it
could run better. Or at least that doubt would be solved...
Additionally, I failed emissions testing last year the first time
through, and just squeaked by during the retest after cleaning the K&N
filter. Not sure if all this is related, but since this carb has been
in use for 18 years now, I've been thinking of rebuilding it. But
instead of rebuilding it, if the EFI works like I hope it does and the
price difference isn't ALL that great.... Maybe? Hence my question.
From: [6]bill at incendium.com [[7]mailto:bill at incendium.com]
Sent: sabado, 14 de octubre de 2017 19:21
To: Charles McCall <[8]charlesmccall at gmail.com>; 'Ken Green'
<[9]kenn_green at yahoo.com>; [10]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few
years?
Why change a very good carburetor set up ?
Luv my 750 DP.
Cheers
Bill Moore
Calgary
-------- Original message --------
From: Charles McCall < <[11]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com>
[12]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Date: 2017-10-14 11:06 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: 'Ken Green' < <[13]mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com>
[14]kenn_green at yahoo.com>,
<[15]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
[16]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few
years?
Thanks, Ken and Jeff.. partially answering my own question I see
FITech, MSD, and Holley all offer systems that appear to be the
panacea.
Roughly $1000 for just the unit, or $1200 with a fuel pump and complete
installation kit. The reviews for the three seem to be similar - the
majority of people are thrilled, but there's a small but consistent
minority that had serious problems. Cutting and pasting from reviews:
" I received 2 defective units that would never sync up to the ECU and
my final 3rd Sniper finally did work."
"Quit running after 15 miles
Summit Racing Verified Purchase
My car ran beautifully at first then quit. Throttle body is not reading
a rpm signal. All connections have been checked. I await return paper
work to send the unit back."
Most people are pretty pleased though. Some comments about installation
being a little more complicated than promised. Any other firsthand
feedback regarding installation on a Pantera?
From: Ken Green [ <[17]mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com>
[18]mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com]
Sent: sabado, 14 de octubre de 2017 18:58
To: Charles McCall < <[19]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com>
[20]charlesmccall at gmail.com>;
<[21]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
[22]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few
years?
I think FAST, Holley, and MSD all have bolt on single 4V throttle body
EFIs that practically tune themselves, but you will need am EFI fuel
pump and I'm pretty sure a O2 sensor in the exhaust. They all seem to
have these for around $1,000.
Ken
_____
From: Charles McCall < < <[23]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com>
[24]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com>
<[25]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com> [26]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
To: < <[27]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
[28]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
<[29]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
[30]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2017 5:52 AM
Subject: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few years?
What's the current state of advancement in the fuel injection world?
Has someone perfected a bolt-on system that can substitute a 4bbl
carb,
can be installed in minutes, only requires a couple of wires and an
exhaust bung, and that's it?
It would automatically map itself by just driving around, and give
absolutely crisp performance. It wouldn't require fiddling, and would
work just as well as a carb that's perfectly, absolutely, dead-nuts
on.
Oh, and it would cost less than $50. Just kidding, but perhaps under
$1000 for everything. Anyone have any first-hand experience?
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
< <[31]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
[32]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
<[33]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
[34]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
< <[35]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso>
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To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
Thanks, Ken and Jeff.. partially answering my own question I see
FITech, MSD, and Holley all offer systems that appear to be the
panacea.
Roughly $1000 for just the unit, or $1200 with a fuel pump and
complete
installation kit. The reviews for the three seem to be similar - the
majority of people are thrilled, but there's a small but consistent
minority that had serious problems. Cutting and pasting from
reviews:
" I received 2 defective units that would never sync up to the ECU
and
my final 3rd Sniper finally did work."
"Quit running after 15 miles
Summit Racing Summit Racing Verified Purchase
My car ran beautifully at first then quit. Throttle body is not
reading
a rpm signal. All connections have been checked. I await return
paper
work to send the unit back."
Most people are pretty pleased though. Some comments about
installation
being a little more complicated than promised. Any other firsthand
feedback regarding installation on a Pantera?
From: Ken Green [ <[39]mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com>
[40]mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com]
Sent: sabado, 14 de octubre de 2017 18:58
To: Charles McCall < <[41]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com>
[42]charlesmccall at gmail.com>;
<[43]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
[44]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few
years?
I think FAST, Holley, and MSD all have bolt on single 4V throttle
body
EFIs that practically tune themselves, but you will need am EFI fuel
pump and I'm pretty sure a O2 sensor in the exhaust. They all seem
to
have these for around $1,000.
Ken
_______________________________________________________________________
From: Charles McCall <[1] <[45]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com>
[46]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
To: [2] <[47]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
[48]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2017 5:52 AM
Subject: [DeTomaso] How much has EFI advanced over the past few
years?
What's the current state of advancement in the fuel injection
world?
Has someone perfected a bolt-on system that can substitute a 4bbl
carb,
can be installed in minutes, only requires a couple of wires and
an
exhaust bung, and that's it?
It would automatically map itself by just driving around, and give
absolutely crisp performance. It wouldn't require fiddling, and
would
work just as well as a carb that's perfectly, absolutely,
dead-nuts
on.
Oh, and it would cost less than $50. Just kidding, but perhaps
under
$1000 for everything. Anyone have any first-hand experience?
_______________________________________________
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Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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3. [55]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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[57]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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References
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sQJPZYSoUI
2. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
3. mailto:bill at incendium.com
4. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
5. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
6. mailto:bill at incendium.com
7. mailto:bill at incendium.com
8. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
9. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
10. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
11. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
12. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
13. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
14. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
15. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
16. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
17. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
18. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
19. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
20. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
21. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
22. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
23. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
24. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
25. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
26. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
27. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
28. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
29. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
30. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
31. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
32. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
33. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
34. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
35. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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37. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
38. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
39. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
40. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
41. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
42. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
43. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
44. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
45. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
46. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
47. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
48. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
49. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
50. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
51. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
52. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
53. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
54. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
55. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
56. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
57. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
58. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
59. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
60. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
61. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
62. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
63. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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