[DeTomaso] Comp Cam's roller lifters

Dave Londry davel at emspace.com
Sat Oct 14 23:19:06 EDT 2017


Enables higher RPM operation also.

On 14/10/2017 5:36 PM, Forest Goodhart wrote:
>     A fast bleed rate tames a radical cam a small bit by decreasing the
>     duration.
>       __________________________________________________________________
>
>     From: Chuck and Linda Huber <lindahuber at cox.net>
>     To: 'Daniel C Jones' <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
>     Cc: 'detomaso' <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>     Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2017 4:38 PM
>     Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Comp Cam's roller lifters
>     What is the advantage of a fast bleed rate over a slow one?  It would
>     seem that a slower bleed down would help in the situation of
>     intermittent oil pressure, or pressure fluctuations.
>     Thanks -
>     Chuck
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Daniel C Jones [mailto:[1]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com]
>     Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 9:23 AM
>     Cc: detomaso
>     Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Comp Cam's roller lifters
>     >  I have not used Johnson Lifters, but it is my understanding that
>     they
>     have a good reputation and are good quality.
>     There are two lifter companies using the Johnson name.  HyLift Johnson
>     (
>     www.hylift-johnson.com) and Johnson ([2]https://johnsonlifters.com).
>     Hylift owned the Johson brand when they were an OEM supplier and, like
>     Stanadyne and Eaton, they were a high quality supplier.  Hylift went
>     out of business due to dropping sales volume as the OEM's moved to OHC
>     engines.  As I understand it, Johnson is in no way related to Hylift.
>     Also, Hylift's name was bought and a new plant was opened with new
>     people so they aren't really the old Hylift Johnson company, either.
>     Much of the flat tappet cam issues were due to Hylift exiting the
>     business and the void being filled by sub-par Mexican (Moresa) and
>     Chinese suppliers.  Be aware that Eaton sold their aftermarket lifter
>     business to Stanadyne then later purchased the Moresa plant and
>     re-entered the business.
>     > Anybody have any experience with Johnson Lifters?
>     I've not used either Johson or Hylift-Johnson hydraulic roller
>     lifters.  On their website, they list four versions of the SBF
>     lifters.  Two of them have "short travel" in the name but if you follow
>     the links all four of
>     them mentioned reduced travel.  Not sure what's up with that but
>     elsewhere
>     on the site it claims all hydraulic lifters are available with short
>     travel, variable duration lift and axle oiling features.  Variable
>     duration would be a fast bleed rate lifter like the old Rhoads lifters.
>     Dan Jones
>     On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 9:40 AM, <[3]jgkrenton at comcast.net> wrote:
>     > Dan et-al:
>     >
>     > I stumbled over these guys while looking for something else.
>     >
>     >
>     [4]https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicRollerLifters/2222SBR.a
>     sp
>     > x
>     >
>     > Anybody have any experience with Johnson Lifters?
>     >
>     > Jeff
>     >
>     > ------------------------------
>     > *From: *"Daniel C Jones" <[5]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
>     > *Cc: *"detomaso" <[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>     > *Sent: *Friday, October 6, 2017 11:51:22 AM
>     > *Subject: *Re: [DeTomaso] Comp Cam's roller lifters
>     >
>     > > Does anyone have any experience with the Comp Cam's retrofit kit's
>     > > such
>     > as this?
>     >
>     > There are two ways to run a hydraulic roller cam in a 351C.  The
>     first
>     > is to run link bar lifters.  The other is to run the spider and dog
>     > bones arrangement similar to what was introduced in the mid 1980s on
>     > the 5.0L Ford V8.  The Comp retrofit kit is the latter.  We've run
>     > both arrangements and there are some issues to be aware of.  It
>     varies
>     > from block-to-block and depends upon the size of the chamfer at the
>     > top of the lifter bore but, on many blocks, the oil feed is exposed
>     at
>     > maximum lobe lift on stock base circle cams.  Some manufacturers
>     (like
>     > Comp) will reduce the base circle of the cam so the OEM type lifters
>     > can be used.  As a rule, irregardless of how much lift that a
>     camshaft
>     > has, the lifters generally all stop in approximately the same
>     location
>     > at the top unless the base circle is deliberately reduced which can
>     > cause problems at the other end of the lifter bores.  With a reduced
>     > base circle cam, the OEM lifters will usually be safe at maximum lift
>     > but some blocks will have interference problems with the dog bones.
>     A
>     > local shop which uses the Comp retrofit kit has a fixture to machine
>     > the block for clearance but it can also be done by hand.  Comps link
>     > bar lifters have the oil feed (and associated band on the
>     > lifter) in the same place as the OEM lifters so have the same
>     problems
>     > at max lobe lift.
>     >
>     > Other retrofit link bar lifters like the Crane, Gaterman (copies of
>     > the Crane), Howards (made by Gaterman), Lunati (made by Morel) have
>     > the oil feed placed lower on the lifter body and do not have the max
>     lift
>     > problem.  My favorites are the Crane link bars but they are quite
>     > expensive.  The Lunati/Morel hydraulic roller lifters cost about half
>     > what the Cranes do and seem to work well.  Be aware there are some
>     > Chinese knock-offs of the Cranes that should be avoided (tested on a
>     > spring load machine and failed).
>     >
>     > Comps kit comes with pushrods, springs and timing chain set.  Comp
>     > doesn't make the timing chains and gets them from a variety of
>     manufacturers.
>     > Often (usually) the gears are from one manufacturer and the chains
>     are
>     > from another.  There are some good and some very bad chains out there
>     > so you need to verify the name on the chain links.  Avoid chains with
>     > no name or "Rolon".  The pushrods are shorter for the taller
>     hydraulic
>     > roller lifters but may not be correct for your engine.  Due to
>     > tolerance stack up in the cam base circle diameter, rocker arm,
>     > whether or not the heads and/or block have been milled, the pushrod
>     > length you need may be different.  Given the angles involved with the
>     > canted valve heads, it is important to get the pushrod length and
>     valve train geometry correct.
>     >
>     > Have your heads been converted to studs and guide plates or are they
>     > the original pedestal mount?  What rocker arms are you using?  The
>     > spring loads required for a hydraulic roller cam may exceed the
>     > pedestal mount bolt strength.
>     >
>     > Another issue is distributor gear compatibility.  The cam core can be
>     > made from a variety of materials, generally either on of several
>     > steels or a SADI core.  Unless you get a custom grind, Comp uses a
>     > SADI core.  SADI stands for selectively austempered ductile iron.
>     > SADI cores are generally compatible with cast iron distributor
>     gears.
>     > Be aware the quality of cast iron gears varies greatly.  Following
>     > several cast iron gear failures, a friend Brinneltested several
>     > different cast iron distributor gears and found that some gears
>     > (especially those purchased from auto parts stores) were softer than
>     > the OEM Ford cast iron gear and some were even softer than an
>     > aluminum-bronze gear.  Mallory makes a distributor gear for their
>     > distributors that is made specifically for "austempered ductile iron
>     > billets" and "proferal billet" cams.  "Proferal" is a grade of iron
>     > alloy that is used primarily for non-roller camshafts because of its
>     anti-wear characteristics.
>     >
>     > > I used the Crane Cams roller conversion kit, with a Crane 351C
>     > > hydraulic
>     > roller cam and lifters.
>     >
>     > We've used the Crane kit before as well.  It differs from Comp in
>     that
>     > Crane uses an 8620 steel cam core of standard base circle.  The steel
>     > core requires one of Crane's compatible steel distributor gears:
>     >
>     >  52970-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.500" shaft
>     > diameter
>     >  52971-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.531" shaft
>     > diameter
>     >
>     > As noted above, the size of the lifter bore chamfer determines
>     whether
>     > a standard base circle cam like Crane uses will work in a specific
>     > block with OEM style lifters.
>     >
>     > We've used both steel and SADI cores successfully (with the proper
>     > distributor gear).  The Gaterman/Howards or Morel/Lunati link bar
>     > lifters are inexpensive enough that we no longer use the OEM style
>     retrofit kits.
>     > Rather than buying a kit with parts of unknown brand and
>     > specification, I prefer to put together parts of known pedigree that
>     > fit the application.  A custom hydraulic roller cam is around $100
>     > more than an off-the-shelf grind which may not match your engine.
>     >
>     > > When Denny Aldridge built our 351C he used Comp Cams roller
>     lifters.
>     > Thank the lord above that he then dyno'd the engine - and found the
>     > lifters would not stay up.
>     >
>     > Plus one on the dyno testing.  We found a link bar that had come
>     > detached on a Crane lifter during a dyno test.  This was back when
>     > Crane went out of business but before they reorganized.  Someone had
>     > bought the remaining inventory and had sold the lifters without
>     > realizing they had not been finish machined.  The specific problem
>     was
>     > the link bars had been pressed into place but the ends of the axles
>     > had not been peened to retain the link bars.
>     >
>     > Dan Jones
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     >
>     >
>     > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
>     > exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
>     > [7]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>     > [8]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>     >
>     > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>     > use the links above.
>     >
>     > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
>     any
>     > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>     list.
>     > They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
>     > approve the archiving of list messages.
>     >
>     >
>     _______________________________________________
>     Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>     Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>     DeTomaso mailing list
>     [9]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>     [10]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>     To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>     use the links above.
>     Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>     message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>     list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
>     or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
>     1. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
>     2. https://johnsonlifters.com/
>     3. mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net
>     4. https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicRollerLifters/2222SBR.asp
>     5. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
>     6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>     7. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>     8. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>     9. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>    10. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
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>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.

-------------- next part --------------
   Enables higher RPM operation also.

   On 14/10/2017 5:36 PM, Forest Goodhart wrote:

   A fast bleed rate tames a radical cam a small bit by decreasing the
   duration.
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: Chuck and Linda Huber [1]<lindahuber at cox.net>
   To: 'Daniel C Jones' [2]<daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
   Cc: 'detomaso' [3]<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2017 4:38 PM
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Comp Cam's roller lifters
   What is the advantage of a fast bleed rate over a slow one?  It would
   seem that a slower bleed down would help in the situation of
   intermittent oil pressure, or pressure fluctuations.
   Thanks -
   Chuck
   -----Original Message-----
   From: Daniel C Jones [mailto:[[4]1]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com]
   Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 9:23 AM
   Cc: detomaso
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Comp Cam's roller lifters
   >  I have not used Johnson Lifters, but it is my understanding that
   they
   have a good reputation and are good quality.
   There are two lifter companies using the Johnson name.  HyLift Johnson
   (
   [5]www.hylift-johnson.com) and Johnson ([2][6]https://johnsonlifters.com).
   Hylift owned the Johson brand when they were an OEM supplier and, like
   Stanadyne and Eaton, they were a high quality supplier.  Hylift went
   out of business due to dropping sales volume as the OEM's moved to OHC
   engines.  As I understand it, Johnson is in no way related to Hylift.
   Also, Hylift's name was bought and a new plant was opened with new
   people so they aren't really the old Hylift Johnson company, either.
   Much of the flat tappet cam issues were due to Hylift exiting the
   business and the void being filled by sub-par Mexican (Moresa) and
   Chinese suppliers.  Be aware that Eaton sold their aftermarket lifter
   business to Stanadyne then later purchased the Moresa plant and
   re-entered the business.
   > Anybody have any experience with Johnson Lifters?
   I've not used either Johson or Hylift-Johnson hydraulic roller
   lifters.  On their website, they list four versions of the SBF
   lifters.  Two of them have "short travel" in the name but if you follow
   the links all four of
   them mentioned reduced travel.  Not sure what's up with that but
   elsewhere
   on the site it claims all hydraulic lifters are available with short
   travel, variable duration lift and axle oiling features.  Variable
   duration would be a fast bleed rate lifter like the old Rhoads lifters.
   Dan Jones
   On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 9:40 AM, [7]<[3]jgkrenton at comcast.net> wrote:
   > Dan et-al:
   >
   > I stumbled over these guys while looking for something else.
   >
   >
   [4][8]https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicRollerLifters/2222SBR.a
   sp
   > x
   >
   > Anybody have any experience with Johnson Lifters?
   >
   > Jeff
   >
   > ------------------------------
   > *From: *"Daniel C Jones" [9]<[5]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
   > *Cc: *"detomaso" [10]<[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   > *Sent: *Friday, October 6, 2017 11:51:22 AM
   > *Subject: *Re: [DeTomaso] Comp Cam's roller lifters
   >
   > > Does anyone have any experience with the Comp Cam's retrofit kit's
   > > such
   > as this?
   >
   > There are two ways to run a hydraulic roller cam in a 351C.  The
   first
   > is to run link bar lifters.  The other is to run the spider and dog
   > bones arrangement similar to what was introduced in the mid 1980s on
   > the 5.0L Ford V8.  The Comp retrofit kit is the latter.  We've run
   > both arrangements and there are some issues to be aware of.  It
   varies
   > from block-to-block and depends upon the size of the chamfer at the
   > top of the lifter bore but, on many blocks, the oil feed is exposed
   at
   > maximum lobe lift on stock base circle cams.  Some manufacturers
   (like
   > Comp) will reduce the base circle of the cam so the OEM type lifters
   > can be used.  As a rule, irregardless of how much lift that a
   camshaft
   > has, the lifters generally all stop in approximately the same
   location
   > at the top unless the base circle is deliberately reduced which can
   > cause problems at the other end of the lifter bores.  With a reduced
   > base circle cam, the OEM lifters will usually be safe at maximum lift
   > but some blocks will have interference problems with the dog bones.
   A
   > local shop which uses the Comp retrofit kit has a fixture to machine
   > the block for clearance but it can also be done by hand.  Comps link
   > bar lifters have the oil feed (and associated band on the
   > lifter) in the same place as the OEM lifters so have the same
   problems
   > at max lobe lift.
   >
   > Other retrofit link bar lifters like the Crane, Gaterman (copies of
   > the Crane), Howards (made by Gaterman), Lunati (made by Morel) have
   > the oil feed placed lower on the lifter body and do not have the max
   lift
   > problem.  My favorites are the Crane link bars but they are quite
   > expensive.  The Lunati/Morel hydraulic roller lifters cost about half
   > what the Cranes do and seem to work well.  Be aware there are some
   > Chinese knock-offs of the Cranes that should be avoided (tested on a
   > spring load machine and failed).
   >
   > Comps kit comes with pushrods, springs and timing chain set.  Comp
   > doesn't make the timing chains and gets them from a variety of
   manufacturers.
   > Often (usually) the gears are from one manufacturer and the chains
   are
   > from another.  There are some good and some very bad chains out there
   > so you need to verify the name on the chain links.  Avoid chains with
   > no name or "Rolon".  The pushrods are shorter for the taller
   hydraulic
   > roller lifters but may not be correct for your engine.  Due to
   > tolerance stack up in the cam base circle diameter, rocker arm,
   > whether or not the heads and/or block have been milled, the pushrod
   > length you need may be different.  Given the angles involved with the
   > canted valve heads, it is important to get the pushrod length and
   valve train geometry correct.
   >
   > Have your heads been converted to studs and guide plates or are they
   > the original pedestal mount?  What rocker arms are you using?  The
   > spring loads required for a hydraulic roller cam may exceed the
   > pedestal mount bolt strength.
   >
   > Another issue is distributor gear compatibility.  The cam core can be
   > made from a variety of materials, generally either on of several
   > steels or a SADI core.  Unless you get a custom grind, Comp uses a
   > SADI core.  SADI stands for selectively austempered ductile iron.
   > SADI cores are generally compatible with cast iron distributor
   gears.
   > Be aware the quality of cast iron gears varies greatly.  Following
   > several cast iron gear failures, a friend Brinneltested several
   > different cast iron distributor gears and found that some gears
   > (especially those purchased from auto parts stores) were softer than
   > the OEM Ford cast iron gear and some were even softer than an
   > aluminum-bronze gear.  Mallory makes a distributor gear for their
   > distributors that is made specifically for "austempered ductile iron
   > billets" and "proferal billet" cams.  "Proferal" is a grade of iron
   > alloy that is used primarily for non-roller camshafts because of its
   anti-wear characteristics.
   >
   > > I used the Crane Cams roller conversion kit, with a Crane 351C
   > > hydraulic
   > roller cam and lifters.
   >
   > We've used the Crane kit before as well.  It differs from Comp in
   that
   > Crane uses an 8620 steel cam core of standard base circle.  The steel
   > core requires one of Crane's compatible steel distributor gears:
   >
   >  52970-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.500" shaft
   > diameter
   >  52971-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.531" shaft
   > diameter
   >
   > As noted above, the size of the lifter bore chamfer determines
   whether
   > a standard base circle cam like Crane uses will work in a specific
   > block with OEM style lifters.
   >
   > We've used both steel and SADI cores successfully (with the proper
   > distributor gear).  The Gaterman/Howards or Morel/Lunati link bar
   > lifters are inexpensive enough that we no longer use the OEM style
   retrofit kits.
   > Rather than buying a kit with parts of unknown brand and
   > specification, I prefer to put together parts of known pedigree that
   > fit the application.  A custom hydraulic roller cam is around $100
   > more than an off-the-shelf grind which may not match your engine.
   >
   > > When Denny Aldridge built our 351C he used Comp Cams roller
   lifters.
   > Thank the lord above that he then dyno'd the engine - and found the
   > lifters would not stay up.
   >
   > Plus one on the dyno testing.  We found a link bar that had come
   > detached on a Crane lifter during a dyno test.  This was back when
   > Crane went out of business but before they reorganized.  Someone had
   > bought the remaining inventory and had sold the lifters without
   > realizing they had not been finish machined.  The specific problem
   was
   > the link bars had been pressed into place but the ends of the axles
   > had not been peened to retain the link bars.
   >
   > Dan Jones
   >
   > _______________________________________________
   >
   >
   > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
   > exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
   > [[11]7]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   > [8][12]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >
   > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   > use the links above.
   >
   > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
   any
   > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list.
   > They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
   > approve the archiving of list messages.
   >
   >
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [[13]9]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

   1. [15]mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
   2. [16]https://johnsonlifters.com/
   3. [17]mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net
   4. [18]https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicRollerLifters/2222SBR.asp
   5. [19]mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
   6. [20]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   7. [21]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   8. [22]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   9. [23]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  10. [24]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso


_______________________________________________


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osted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant
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t messages.

References

   1. mailto:lindahuber at cox.net
   2. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
   3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   4. mailto:1]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
   5. http://www.hylift-johnson.com/
   6. https://johnsonlifters.com/
   7. mailto:[3]jgkrenton at comcast.net
   8. https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicRollerLifters/2222SBR.a
   9. mailto:[5]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
  10. mailto:[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  11. mailto:7]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  12. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  13. mailto:9]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  14. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  15. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
  16. https://johnsonlifters.com/
  17. mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net
  18. https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicRollerLifters/2222SBR.asp
  19. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
  20. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  21. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  22. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  23. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  24. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  25. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  26. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso


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