[DeTomaso] Comp Cam's roller lifters

jgkrenton at comcast.net jgkrenton at comcast.net
Fri Oct 13 10:40:46 EDT 2017


Dan et-al: 

I stumbled over these guys while looking for something else. 

https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicRollerLifters/2222SBR.aspx 

Anybody have any experience with Johnson Lifters? 

Jeff 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Daniel C Jones" <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com> 
Cc: "detomaso" <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> 
Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 11:51:22 AM 
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Comp Cam's roller lifters 

> Does anyone have any experience with the Comp Cam's retrofit kit's such 
as this? 

There are two ways to run a hydraulic roller cam in a 351C. The first is 
to run link bar lifters. The other is to run the spider and dog bones 
arrangement similar to what was introduced in the mid 1980s on the 5.0L 
Ford V8. The Comp retrofit kit is the latter. We've run both arrangements 
and there are some issues to be aware of. It varies from block-to-block 
and depends upon the size of the chamfer at the top of the lifter bore but, 
on many blocks, the oil feed is exposed at maximum lobe lift on stock base 
circle cams. Some manufacturers (like Comp) will reduce the base circle of 
the cam so the OEM type lifters can be used. As a rule, irregardless of 
how much lift that a camshaft has, the lifters generally all stop in 
approximately the same location at the top unless the base circle is 
deliberately reduced which can cause problems at the other end of the 
lifter bores. With a reduced base circle cam, the OEM lifters will usually 
be safe at maximum lift but some blocks will have interference problems 
with the dog bones. A local shop which uses the Comp retrofit kit has a 
fixture to machine the block for clearance but it can also be done by 
hand. Comps link bar lifters have the oil feed (and associated band on the 
lifter) in the same place as the OEM lifters so have the same problems at 
max lobe lift. 

Other retrofit link bar lifters like the Crane, Gaterman (copies of the 
Crane), Howards (made by Gaterman), Lunati (made by Morel) have the oil 
feed placed lower on the lifter body and do not have the max lift 
problem. My favorites are the Crane link bars but they are quite 
expensive. The Lunati/Morel hydraulic roller lifters cost about half what 
the Cranes do and seem to work well. Be aware there are some Chinese 
knock-offs of the Cranes that should be avoided (tested on a spring load 
machine and failed). 

Comps kit comes with pushrods, springs and timing chain set. Comp doesn't 
make the timing chains and gets them from a variety of manufacturers. 
Often (usually) the gears are from one manufacturer and the chains are from 
another. There are some good and some very bad chains out there so you 
need to verify the name on the chain links. Avoid chains with no name or 
"Rolon". The pushrods are shorter for the taller hydraulic roller lifters 
but may not be correct for your engine. Due to tolerance stack up in the 
cam base circle diameter, rocker arm, whether or not the heads and/or block 
have been milled, the pushrod length you need may be different. Given the 
angles involved with the canted valve heads, it is important to get the 
pushrod length and valve train geometry correct. 

Have your heads been converted to studs and guide plates or are they the 
original pedestal mount? What rocker arms are you using? The spring loads 
required for a hydraulic roller cam may exceed the pedestal mount bolt 
strength. 

Another issue is distributor gear compatibility. The cam core can be made 
from a variety of materials, generally either on of several steels or a 
SADI core. Unless you get a custom grind, Comp uses a SADI core. SADI 
stands for selectively austempered ductile iron. SADI cores are generally 
compatible with cast iron distributor gears. Be aware the quality of cast 
iron gears varies greatly. Following several cast iron gear failures, a 
friend Brinneltested several different cast iron distributor gears and 
found that some gears (especially those purchased from auto parts stores) 
were softer than the OEM Ford cast iron gear and some were even softer than 
an aluminum-bronze gear. Mallory makes a distributor gear for their 
distributors that is made specifically for "austempered ductile iron 
billets" and "proferal billet" cams. "Proferal" is a grade of iron alloy 
that is used primarily for non-roller camshafts because of its anti-wear 
characteristics. 

> I used the Crane Cams roller conversion kit, with a Crane 351C hydraulic 
roller cam and lifters. 

We've used the Crane kit before as well. It differs from Comp in that 
Crane uses an 8620 steel cam core of standard base circle. The steel core 
requires one of Crane's compatible steel distributor gears: 

52970-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.500" shaft diameter 
52971-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.531" shaft diameter 

As noted above, the size of the lifter bore chamfer determines whether a 
standard base circle cam like Crane uses will work in a specific block with 
OEM style lifters. 

We've used both steel and SADI cores successfully (with the proper 
distributor gear). The Gaterman/Howards or Morel/Lunati link bar lifters 
are inexpensive enough that we no longer use the OEM style retrofit kits. 
Rather than buying a kit with parts of unknown brand and specification, I 
prefer to put together parts of known pedigree that fit the application. A 
custom hydraulic roller cam is around $100 more than an off-the-shelf grind 
which may not match your engine. 

> When Denny Aldridge built our 351C he used Comp Cams roller lifters. 
Thank the lord above that he then dyno'd the engine - and found the lifters 
would not stay up. 

Plus one on the dyno testing. We found a link bar that had come detached 
on a Crane lifter during a dyno test. This was back when Crane went out of 
business but before they reorganized. Someone had bought the remaining 
inventory and had sold the lifters without realizing they had not been 
finish machined. The specific problem was the link bars had been pressed 
into place but the ends of the axles had not been peened to retain the link 
bars. 

Dan Jones 

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-------------- next part --------------
   Dan et-al:
   I stumbled over these guys while looking for something else.
   [1]https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicRollerLifters/2222SBR.a
   spx
   Anybody have any experience with Johnson Lifters?
   Jeff
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: "Daniel C Jones" <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
   Cc: "detomaso" <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 11:51:22 AM
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Comp Cam's roller lifters
   > Does anyone have any experience with the Comp Cam's retrofit kit's
   such
   as this?
   There are two ways to run a hydraulic roller cam in a 351C.  The first
   is
   to run link bar lifters.  The other is to run the spider and dog bones
   arrangement similar to what was introduced in the mid 1980s on the 5.0L
   Ford V8.  The Comp retrofit kit is the latter.  We've run both
   arrangements
   and there are some issues to be aware of.  It varies from
   block-to-block
   and depends upon the size of the chamfer at the top of the lifter bore
   but,
   on many blocks, the oil feed is exposed at maximum lobe lift on stock
   base
   circle cams.  Some manufacturers (like Comp) will reduce the base
   circle of
   the cam so the OEM type lifters can be used.  As a rule, irregardless
   of
   how much lift that a camshaft has, the lifters generally all stop in
   approximately the same location at the top unless the base circle is
   deliberately reduced which can cause problems at the other end of the
   lifter bores.  With a reduced base circle cam, the OEM lifters will
   usually
   be safe at maximum lift but some blocks will have interference problems
   with the dog bones.  A local shop which uses the Comp retrofit kit has
   a
   fixture to machine the block for clearance but it can also be done by
   hand.  Comps link bar lifters have the oil feed (and associated band on
   the
   lifter) in the same place as the OEM lifters so have the same problems
   at
   max lobe lift.
   Other retrofit link bar lifters like the Crane, Gaterman (copies of the
   Crane), Howards (made by Gaterman), Lunati (made by Morel) have the oil
   feed placed lower on the lifter body and do not have the max lift
   problem.   My favorites are the Crane link bars but they are quite
   expensive.  The Lunati/Morel hydraulic roller lifters cost about half
   what
   the Cranes do and seem to work well.  Be aware there are some Chinese
   knock-offs of the Cranes that should be avoided (tested on a spring
   load
   machine and failed).
   Comps kit comes with pushrods, springs and timing chain set.  Comp
   doesn't
   make the timing chains and gets them from a variety of manufacturers.
   Often (usually) the gears are from one manufacturer and the chains are
   from
   another.  There are some good and some very bad chains out there so you
   need to verify the name on the chain links.  Avoid chains with no name
   or
   "Rolon".  The pushrods are shorter for the taller hydraulic roller
   lifters
   but may not be correct for your engine.  Due to tolerance stack up in
   the
   cam base circle diameter, rocker arm, whether or not the heads and/or
   block
   have been milled, the pushrod length you need may be different.  Given
   the
   angles involved with the canted valve heads, it is important to get the
   pushrod length and valve train geometry correct.
   Have your heads been converted to studs and guide plates or are they
   the
   original pedestal mount?  What rocker arms are you using?  The spring
   loads
   required for a hydraulic roller cam may exceed the pedestal mount bolt
   strength.
   Another issue is distributor gear compatibility.  The cam core can be
   made
   from a variety of materials, generally either on of several steels or a
   SADI core.  Unless you get a custom grind, Comp uses a SADI core.  SADI
   stands for selectively austempered ductile iron.  SADI cores are
   generally
   compatible with cast iron distributor gears.  Be aware the quality of
   cast
   iron gears varies greatly.  Following several cast iron gear failures,
   a
   friend Brinneltested several different cast iron distributor gears and
   found that some gears (especially those purchased from auto parts
   stores)
   were softer than the OEM Ford cast iron gear and some were even softer
   than
   an aluminum-bronze gear.  Mallory makes a distributor gear for their
   distributors that is made specifically for "austempered ductile iron
   billets" and "proferal billet" cams.  "Proferal" is a grade of iron
   alloy
   that is used primarily for non-roller camshafts because of its
   anti-wear
   characteristics.
   > I used the Crane Cams roller conversion kit, with a Crane 351C
   hydraulic
   roller cam and lifters.
   We've used the Crane kit before as well.  It differs from Comp in that
   Crane uses an 8620 steel cam core of standard base circle.  The steel
   core
   requires one of Crane's compatible steel distributor gears:
    52970-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.500" shaft
   diameter
    52971-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.531" shaft
   diameter
   As noted above, the size of the lifter bore chamfer determines whether
   a
   standard base circle cam like Crane uses will work in a specific block
   with
   OEM style lifters.
   We've used both steel and SADI cores successfully (with the proper
   distributor gear).  The Gaterman/Howards or Morel/Lunati link bar
   lifters
   are inexpensive enough that we no longer use the OEM style retrofit
   kits.
   Rather than buying a kit with parts of unknown brand and specification,
   I
   prefer to put together parts of known pedigree that fit the
   application.  A
   custom hydraulic roller cam is around $100 more than an off-the-shelf
   grind
   which may not match your engine.
   > When Denny Aldridge built our 351C he used Comp Cams roller lifters.
   Thank the lord above that he then dyno'd the engine - and found the
   lifters
   would not stay up.
   Plus one on the dyno testing.  We found a link bar that had come
   detached
   on a Crane lifter during a dyno test.  This was back when Crane went
   out of
   business but before they reorganized.  Someone had bought the remaining
   inventory and had sold the lifters without realizing they had not been
   finish machined.  The specific problem was the link bars had been
   pressed
   into place but the ends of the axles had not been peened to retain the
   link
   bars.
   Dan Jones
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

   1. https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicRollerLifters/2222SBR.aspx


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