[DeTomaso] Movement of air

Daniel C Jones daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
Sun Nov 26 13:01:24 EST 2017


You're welcome.   Dan

On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:

> Dear Dan,
>
>
>                   Thanks for the excellent report.
>
>
>                                Warmest regards,  Chuck Engles
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On
> Behalf Of Daniel C Jones
> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 7:55 PM
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Movement of air
>
> > Did the NASCAR guys not know about the Pantera side boundary air layer
> > or
> did they know that their design would work and ignored the boundary layer?
>
> It's not clear if the NASCAR guys were involved in picking the location of
> the inlet duct or it chosen by the monkeys.  If the NASCAR guys had chosen
> the duct, I would have thought they would have used a NACA inlet.  In any
> case, the boundary layer effect is of no consequence since a plain duct,
> instead of a scoop, was chosen.  In a plain duct, all that matters is the
> pressure differential.  Since the system is sealed, the engine provides a
> low pressure side so air flows in.
>
> > I am even more interested in that sequential 6 speed transmission from
> Australia. Does anyone have info on that unit?
>
> I did a quick search and came across someone who mentioned it cost him
> $30K USD to get one to the United States for his project.
>
> > The rear deck lid wing is one of the best looking wings on Panteras.
> > At
> least they got that part right.
>
> It's really more a decklid spoiler and I wonder what sort of airflow it
> actually sees.  The flow detaches at the aft edge of the roof.  The
> question is does it re-attach before the decklid spoiler or is the only
> meaningful flow coming in from around the sides of the car?  In the first
> part of the build, they made mention of putting the Pantera in a wind
> tunnel but, if they did, it was not shown in the second part.  Oddly, the
> Cobra Daytona replica had a very large and tall rear wing even though the
> flow on that vehicle stays attached, thanks to the truncated tear drop body
> shape (a.k.a. Kamm back).  A wing is more efficient than a lip spoiler and
> they had extra front end down force (from the tri-plane front spoiler) so
> perhaps they needed the rear wing to balance it out.  Still, the rear wing
> size seems excessive.
>
> > It all looked very staged and scripted to me right down to the racing
>
> Ditto.  It was obviously a Ford Racing/NASCAR publicity stunt.
>
> > Sure would be nice if the parts were listed somewhere!
>
> Since Ford Racing supplied both engines (and probably more), I would have
> thought they would have gotten into more detail on them.
>
> > With EFI I guess any ram air effect isn't a big deal as the MAF/MAP
> sensor will adjust for the right Air/Fuel ratio, but I assume the ECU
> mapping would have to compensate for overall fuel charge?
>
> The Pantera had no ram air effect to deal with but, in general, yes.
>
> > The car was done by some group - maybe for TV - or auction - or
> > something
> - that had a scoop going over the cockpit and into the engine bay. I think
> it had a high performance V-6
>
> That was built for the same "Fast and Loud" TV show when Aaron Kaufmann
> was still working there.  It was a modified Ford 3.5L Ecoboost V6.
>
>
> https://www.drivingline.com/articles/an-ecoboosted-
> pantera-you-ll-go-bananas-for/
>
> > BUT - my point (or question) is: does air go IN or OUT of the screen
> behind the cockpit.
>
> If that scoop had been properly designed, it would have had a sealed path
> to the engine so the flow in the engine compartment is irrelevant.
> However, the scoop was way too low with the inlet opening area directly in
> the dead zone of the boundary layer.
>
> Dan Jones
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
   You're welcome.A A  Dan

   On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Charles Engles <[1]cengles at cox.net>
   wrote:

     Dear Dan,
     A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  Thanks for the excellent report.
     A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A  A Warmest regards,A
     Chuck Engles
     -----Original Message-----
     From: DeTomaso [mailto:[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com]
     On Behalf Of Daniel C Jones
     Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 7:55 PM
     Cc: [3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
     Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Movement of air
     > Did the NASCAR guys not know about the Pantera side boundary air
     layer
     > or
     did they know that their design would work and ignored the boundary
     layer?
     It's not clear if the NASCAR guys were involved in picking the
     location of the inlet duct or it chosen by the monkeys.A  If the
     NASCAR guys had chosen the duct, I would have thought they would
     have used a NACA inlet.A  In any case, the boundary layer effect is
     of no consequence since a plain duct, instead of a scoop, was
     chosen.A  In a plain duct, all that matters is the pressure
     differential.A  Since the system is sealed, the engine provides a
     low pressure side so air flows in.
     > I am even more interested in that sequential 6 speed transmission
     from
     Australia. Does anyone have info on that unit?
     I did a quick search and came across someone who mentioned it cost
     him $30K USD to get one to the United States for his project.
     > The rear deck lid wing is one of the best looking wings on
     Panteras.
     > At
     least they got that part right.
     It's really more a decklid spoiler and I wonder what sort of airflow
     it actually sees.A  The flow detaches at the aft edge of the roof.A
     The question is does it re-attach before the decklid spoiler or is
     the only meaningful flow coming in from around the sides of the
     car?A  In the first part of the build, they made mention of putting
     the Pantera in a wind tunnel but, if they did, it was not shown in
     the second part.A  Oddly, the Cobra Daytona replica had a very large
     and tall rear wing even though the flow on that vehicle stays
     attached, thanks to the truncated tear drop body shape (a.k.a. Kamm
     back).A  A wing is more efficient than a lip spoiler and they had
     extra front end down force (from the tri-plane front spoiler) so
     perhaps they needed the rear wing to balance it out.A  Still, the
     rear wing size seems excessive.
     > It all looked very staged and scripted to me right down to the
     racing
     Ditto.A  It was obviously a Ford Racing/NASCAR publicity stunt.
     > Sure would be nice if the parts were listed somewhere!
     Since Ford Racing supplied both engines (and probably more), I would
     have thought they would have gotten into more detail on them.
     > With EFI I guess any ram air effect isn't a big deal as the
     MAF/MAP
     sensor will adjust for the right Air/Fuel ratio, but I assume the
     ECU mapping would have to compensate for overall fuel charge?
     The Pantera had no ram air effect to deal with but, in general, yes.
     > The car was done by some group - maybe for TV - or auction - or
     > something
     - that had a scoop going over the cockpit and into the engine bay. I
     think it had a high performance V-6
     That was built for the same "Fast and Loud" TV show when Aaron
     Kaufmann was still working there.A  It was a modified Ford 3.5L
     Ecoboost V6.
     [4]https://www.drivingline.com/articles/an-ecoboosted-
     pantera-you-ll-go-bananas-for/
     > BUT - my point (or question) is: does air go IN or OUT of the
     screen
     behind the cockpit.

   If that scoop had been properly designed, it would have had a sealed
   path to the engine so the flow in the engine compartment is irrelevant.
   However, the scoop was way too low with the inlet opening area directly
   in the dead zone of the boundary layer.
   Dan Jones

References

   1. mailto:cengles at cox.net
   2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   4. https://www.drivingline.com/articles/an-ecoboosted-pantera-you-ll-go-bananas-for/


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