[DeTomaso] Stubborn Pilot Bushing
B Hower
b.hower3400 at yahoo.com
Fri Jan 27 22:27:20 EST 2017
I like his adjustable throwout bearing. I had to get one due to the Pro-Comp flywheel being thinner than an ORM.
Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be ! )
From: Mike Thomas <mbefthomas at comcast.net>
To: 'Julian Kift' <julian_kift at hotmail.com>; cengles at cox.net
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com; oldwheel at shaw.ca
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Stubborn Pilot Bushing
Have a fresh one from Dennis along with a new clutch and adjustable throwout
bearing. Other story on the clutch. It's a needle bearing from Dennis thatI'm trying to remove. Probably should have just given it a good grease and
left it alone.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Kift [mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 8:01 AM
To: cengles at cox.net
Cc: oldwheel at shaw.ca; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com;
mbefthomas at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Stubborn Pilot Bushing
To reiterate Chuck's experience, when I purchased the GT5 my first task was
to help Jim reinstall a freshly rebuilt ZF by DQ. The next day I jumped in
and made the 12 hour drive from Phoenix to Reno.
The ZF was not shifting that well for a freshly rebuilt unit so I spoke
with DQ, pulled it and he took it back again to re-inspect. Nothing found
and no change upon reinstall, so at the next Fun Rally Dennis dove the car a
couple laps around Spring Mountain, agreed it was shifting poorly and asked
what I had for a pilot bushing, which was Oilite. He said I'm going to send
you a needle bearing, so to cut a long story short after a further removal
of said ZF and install of the needle bearing I had a perfect shifting ZF.
I'm sold on the solution and only use a needle bearing now, I have heard
stories of varying quality bronze/Oilite bushings.
Julian
> On Jan 27, 2017, at 8:01 AM, "cengles at cox.net" <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Mike,
>
>
> As it happens, I am in the final chapters of my latest engine
project. Your comments reminded me of my earlier challenging problem
removing the same needle bearing pilot bushing. I had not had that problem
with the conventional bronze pilot bushings in the past.
>
> I called Dennis Quella yesterday. PPC sells the needle bearing
pilot bushing. Dennis spoke with me and he was very impressed with the
benefits of them over the normal bushing. He said that over his years of
Pantera/ZF experience, he had seen bad wear patterns on the normal bushings
(ovoid, wallowed out etc) that then began to translate into problems with
the ZF input shaft. He praised the absence of those problems in Panteras
that he has serviced for clutch change, etc, where he is able to inspect the
pilot bushing. He said that whereas the standard practice is to change the
inexpensive ( in the past...) pilot bushing whenever it was accessible for
other service, he now simply inspects the needle bearing pilot bushing and
applies a bit of fresh grease and does *not* change them out.
>
> Now, after the conversation, I realize, too late, that I didn't
ask about *how* to remove the stubborn things.
>
> If Dennis is right, and I expect that he is, then the
frustrating exercise that I endured and you are suffering may not be
necessary.
>
> I decided that I will use the PPC needle bearing pilot bushing
on the new engine and expect that it will last a good long time.
>
> FWIW.
>
>
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:29 PM, B. SEIB wrote:
>>
>> I wish I lived near you Mike. (for a lot of reasons 8>) It wouldn't
>> take long with a cheap little portable mig welder. I'm not an expert
>> welder either, but this isn't hard to do.
>> Maybe a club member near by could help?
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mike Thomas [mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net] Sent: January-26-17
>> 7:24 PM
>> To: 'B. SEIB'
>> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Stubborn Pilot Bushing
>>
>> I don't have a welder or any experience with one.
>> Thanks
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: B. SEIB [mailto:oldwheel at shaw.ca] Sent: Thursday, January 26,
>> 2017 12:51 PM
>> To: mbefthomas at comcast.net; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Stubborn Pilot Bushing
>>
>> Mike
>> I assume it is the hardened outer race that is left in the end of the
crank.
>> If that is the case, an old trick for removing blind end bearings
>> like that is to put a little arc weld on several places around the
>> inside of the race without welding it to the crank. This is actually
>> easier to do than it sounds.
>> The weld expands the race when it heats up and it contracts with the
>> weld so that it will be quite easy to remove after cooling. I've used
>> this method for removing steering head bearing races in motorcycles in
the past.
>>
>> PS Make sure you isolate or remove your electronic ignition before you
weld.
>>
>> Good luck!
>> Barry
>> _____________________________________________________________________
>> _______
>> __
>> Mike Thomas mbefthomas at comcast.net Wed Jan 25 21:30:09 EST 2017
>>
>> OK, guys, I need some suggestions from the collective.
>>
>> I'm getting ready to put a new clutch into 6328, and am doing the
>> usual due diligence by replacing the pilot bushing. The one trying
>> to remove is a needle-bearing type. I had to drive it in bit when I
>> put it in about 6 years ago. I am now at the point where I've
>> trashed one bearing puller, completely pulled the guts out of the
>> bearing part of the bushing except for the race and the steel
>> surrounding it. Trying a second puller and it's not working. There
>> is only a round edge of the inner lip of the bearing race left. When
>> I removed this ones' predecessor, I used the
>> fill-it-with-grease-and-beat-the-crap-(and grease)
>> out-of-it-with-a-socket method, and it finally worked. Made me
>> nervous beating on the end of the crank that way for 20 minutes. As
>> it is now, just the race is left of the bearing in the center, with
>> lips (or what's left of them) fore and aft, so there is not a clean
>> shaft to put a socket or other in to try the grease thing again. I'm
>> beginning to think I need to file the outer lip off of the remains of
>> the race and tap it for a bolt, then get a slide hammer and start working
on it, or . . .? I'm likely need to try to remove the inner race to do the
tap as that's likely all I'll pull out by tapping it.
>>
>> Any and all suggestions are welcome. Engine is still in the car.
>> I'm drizzling penetrating oil on the steel insert part of the bearing
>> twice daily in hopes I can still get enough pull with puller #2.
>>
>> Thanks . . .
>> Mike Thomas
>> Pres., Panteras Northwest
>> Yellow '74 #6328
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
>> exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
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>>
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>>
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They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
the archiving of list messages.
> _______________________________________________
>
>
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>
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They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
the archiving of list messages.
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-------------- next part --------------
I like his adjustable throwout bearing. I had to get one due to the
Pro-Comp flywheel being thinner than an ORM.
Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be
! )
__________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Thomas <mbefthomas at comcast.net>
To: 'Julian Kift' <julian_kift at hotmail.com>; cengles at cox.net
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com; oldwheel at shaw.ca
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Stubborn Pilot Bushing
Have a fresh one from Dennis along with a new clutch and adjustable
throwout
bearing. Other story on the clutch. It's a needle bearing from Dennis
that
I'm trying to remove. Probably should have just given it a good grease
and
left it alone.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Kift [mailto:[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 8:01 AM
To: [2]cengles at cox.net
Cc: [3]oldwheel at shaw.ca; [4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com;
[5]mbefthomas at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Stubborn Pilot Bushing
To reiterate Chuck's experience, when I purchased the GT5 my first task
was
to help Jim reinstall a freshly rebuilt ZF by DQ. The next day I jumped
in
and made the 12 hour drive from Phoenix to Reno.
The ZF was not shifting that well for a freshly rebuilt unit so I
spoke
with DQ, pulled it and he took it back again to re-inspect. Nothing
found
and no change upon reinstall, so at the next Fun Rally Dennis dove the
car a
couple laps around Spring Mountain, agreed it was shifting poorly and
asked
what I had for a pilot bushing, which was Oilite. He said I'm going to
send
you a needle bearing, so to cut a long story short after a further
removal
of said ZF and install of the needle bearing I had a perfect shifting
ZF.
I'm sold on the solution and only use a needle bearing now, I have
heard
stories of varying quality bronze/Oilite bushings.
Julian
> On Jan 27, 2017, at 8:01 AM, "[6]cengles at cox.net"
<[7]cengles at cox.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Mike,
>
>
> As it happens, I am in the final chapters of my latest
engine
project. Your comments reminded me of my earlier challenging problem
removing the same needle bearing pilot bushing. I had not had that
problem
with the conventional bronze pilot bushings in the past.
>
> I called Dennis Quella yesterday. PPC sells the needle
bearing
pilot bushing. Dennis spoke with me and he was very impressed with the
benefits of them over the normal bushing. He said that over his years
of
Pantera/ZF experience, he had seen bad wear patterns on the normal
bushings
(ovoid, wallowed out etc) that then began to translate into problems
with
the ZF input shaft. He praised the absence of those problems in
Panteras
that he has serviced for clutch change, etc, where he is able to
inspect the
pilot bushing. He said that whereas the standard practice is to change
the
inexpensive ( in the past...) pilot bushing whenever it was accessible
for
other service, he now simply inspects the needle bearing pilot bushing
and
applies a bit of fresh grease and does *not* change them out.
>
> Now, after the conversation, I realize, too late, that I
didn't
ask about *how* to remove the stubborn things.
>
> If Dennis is right, and I expect that he is, then the
frustrating exercise that I endured and you are suffering may not be
necessary.
>
> I decided that I will use the PPC needle bearing pilot
bushing
on the new engine and expect that it will last a good long time.
>
> FWIW.
>
>
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:29 PM, B. SEIB wrote:
>>
>> I wish I lived near you Mike. (for a lot of reasons 8>) It wouldn't
>> take long with a cheap little portable mig welder. I'm not an expert
>> welder either, but this isn't hard to do.
>> Maybe a club member near by could help?
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mike Thomas [mailto:[8]mbefthomas at comcast.net] Sent:
January-26-17
>> 7:24 PM
>> To: 'B. SEIB'
>> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Stubborn Pilot Bushing
>>
>> I don't have a welder or any experience with one.
>> Thanks
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: B. SEIB [mailto:[9]oldwheel at shaw.ca] Sent: Thursday, January
26,
>> 2017 12:51 PM
>> To: [10]mbefthomas at comcast.net; [11]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Stubborn Pilot Bushing
>>
>> Mike
>> I assume it is the hardened outer race that is left in the end of
the
crank.
>> If that is the case, an old trick for removing blind end bearings
>> like that is to put a little arc weld on several places around the
>> inside of the race without welding it to the crank. This is actually
>> easier to do than it sounds.
>> The weld expands the race when it heats up and it contracts with the
>> weld so that it will be quite easy to remove after cooling. I've
used
>> this method for removing steering head bearing races in motorcycles
in
the past.
>>
>> PS Make sure you isolate or remove your electronic ignition before
you
weld.
>>
>> Good luck!
>> Barry
>>
_____________________________________________________________________
>> _______
>> __
>> Mike Thomas mbefthomas at comcast.net Wed Jan 25 21:30:09 EST 2017
>>
>> OK, guys, I need some suggestions from the collective.
>>
>> I'm getting ready to put a new clutch into 6328, and am doing the
>> usual due diligence by replacing the pilot bushing. The one trying
>> to remove is a needle-bearing type. I had to drive it in bit when I
>> put it in about 6 years ago. I am now at the point where I've
>> trashed one bearing puller, completely pulled the guts out of the
>> bearing part of the bushing except for the race and the steel
>> surrounding it. Trying a second puller and it's not working. There
>> is only a round edge of the inner lip of the bearing race left.
When
>> I removed this ones' predecessor, I used the
>> fill-it-with-grease-and-beat-the-crap-(and grease)
>> out-of-it-with-a-socket method, and it finally worked. Made me
>> nervous beating on the end of the crank that way for 20 minutes. As
>> it is now, just the race is left of the bearing in the center, with
>> lips (or what's left of them) fore and aft, so there is not a clean
>> shaft to put a socket or other in to try the grease thing again.
I'm
>> beginning to think I need to file the outer lip off of the remains
of
>> the race and tap it for a bolt, then get a slide hammer and start
working
on it, or . . .? I'm likely need to try to remove the inner race to do
the
tap as that's likely all I'll pull out by tapping it.
>>
>> Any and all suggestions are welcome. Engine is still in the car.
>> I'm drizzling penetrating oil on the steel insert part of the
bearing
>> twice daily in hopes I can still get enough pull with puller #2.
>>
>> Thanks . . .
>> Mike Thomas
>> Pres., Panteras Northwest
>> Yellow '74 #6328
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
>> exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
>> [12]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> [13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use
the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list.
They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
approve
the archiving of list messages.
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
> exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> [14]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [15]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use
the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list.
They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
approve
the archiving of list messages.
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
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To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
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References
1. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
2. mailto:cengles at cox.net
3. mailto:oldwheel at shaw.ca
4. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
5. mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net
6. mailto:cengles at cox.net
7. mailto:cengles at cox.net
8. mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net
9. mailto:oldwheel at shaw.ca
10. mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net
11. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
14. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
16. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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