[DeTomaso] Stubborn Pilot Bushing

[cengles at cox.net]

Dear John,



                    No........., but I have heard of it.   Kirby 
Schraeder told me that Tom Upton has some sort of tool or fixture to 
align the ZF input shaft and the crank....or, perhaps, the ZF and the 
block.  In either event, Kirby was a bit dubious, but was convinced by 
Tom to do it.   Kirby, who has a *lot* of Pantera experience, says that 
it is a notable improvement.   Exactly, what the secret Tom Upton tool 
is......I don't know, but it does support the assertion that simple and 
proper alignment of the drivetrain can be advantageous and that it may 
often be sub-optimal and we don't realize it.


                   FWIW.


                          Warmest regards, Chuck Engles




On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 10:52 AM, John McKee wrote:

> Has anyone brought up bellhousing alignment as it relates the pilot 
> bushing? I understand this is an often overlooked adjustment.
>
> John
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
> On Jan 27, 2017 8:23 AM, "Joseph F. Byrd, Jr." <byrdjf at embarqmail.com> 
> wrote:
>>
>> OH...I just see it...If the pilot bushing(bearing) is not allowing 
>> "free spin", it is the same as not disengaging the clutch during the 
>> shift.   I was Just thinking of the bushing providing support for the 
>> transaxle input shaft for 99% of the time while clutch is engaged, 
>> thus I need to reconsider the importance of that 1% of the time 
>> during that second of gear change.
>> Do you recall if the DQ pilot bearing had an inner race or the 
>> needles on the input shaft?
>> Thanks for the relating your experience, made me understand better...
>> Joe
>> -----Original Message----- From: DeTomaso 
>> [mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf Of Julian 
>> Kift Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 11:01 AM To: cengles at cox.net Cc: 
>> detomaso at server.detomasolist.com; oldwheel at shaw.ca; 
>> mbefthomas at comcast.net Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Stubborn Pilot Bushing
>> To reiterate Chuck's experience, when I purchased the GT5 my first 
>> task was to help Jim reinstall a freshly rebuilt ZF by DQ. The next 
>> day I jumped in and made the 12 hour drive from Phoenix to Reno.
>> The ZF was not shifting that well for a freshly  rebuilt unit so I 
>> spoke with DQ, pulled it and he took it back again to re-inspect. 
>> Nothing found and no change upon reinstall, so at the next Fun Rally 
>> Dennis dove the car a couple laps around Spring Mountain, agreed it 
>> was shifting poorly and asked what I had for a pilot bushing, which 
>> was Oilite. He said I'm going to send you a needle bearing, so to cut 
>> a long story short after a further removal of said ZF and install of 
>> the needle bearing I had a perfect shifting ZF. I'm sold on the 
>> solution and only use a needle bearing now, I have heard stories of 
>> varying quality bronze/Oilite bushings.
>> Julian
>>> On Jan 27, 2017, at 8:01 AM, "cengles at cox.net" <cengles at cox.net> 
>>> wrote:
>>> Dear Mike,
>>>
>>>             As it happens, I am in the final chapters of my latest 
>>> engine
>> project.  Your comments reminded me of my earlier challenging problem 
>> removing the same needle bearing pilot bushing.   I had not had that 
>> problem with the conventional bronze pilot bushings in the past.
>>>
>>>             I called Dennis Quella yesterday.  PPC sells the needle 
>>> bearing
>> pilot bushing.  Dennis spoke with me and he was very impressed with 
>> the benefits of them over the normal bushing.   He said that over his 
>> years of Pantera/ZF experience, he had seen bad wear patterns on the 
>> normal bushings (ovoid, wallowed out etc) that then began to 
>> translate into  problems with the ZF input shaft.   He praised the 
>> absence of those problems in Panteras that he has serviced for clutch 
>> change, etc, where he is able to inspect the pilot bushing.  He said 
>> that whereas the standard practice is to change the inexpensive ( in 
>> the past...) pilot bushing whenever it was accessible for other 
>> service,  he now simply inspects the needle bearing pilot bushing and 
>> applies a bit of fresh grease and does *not* change them out.
>>>
>>>            Now, after the conversation, I realize, too late, that I 
>>> didn't
>> ask about *how* to remove the stubborn things.
>>>
>>>            If Dennis is right, and I expect that he is, then the
>> frustrating exercise that I endured and you are suffering may not be 
>> necessary.
>>>
>>>            I decided that I will use the PPC needle bearing pilot 
>>> bushing
>> on the new engine and expect that it will last a good long time.
>>>
>>>            FWIW.
>>>
>>>                             Warmest regards,  Chuck Engles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:29 PM, B. SEIB wrote:
>>>> I wish I lived near you Mike. (for a lot of reasons 8>) It wouldn't 
>>>> take long with a cheap little portable mig welder. I'm not an 
>>>> expert welder either, but this isn't hard to do. Maybe a club 
>>>> member near by could help? -----Original Message----- From: Mike 
>>>> Thomas [mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net] Sent: January-26-17 7:24 PM 
>>>> To: 'B. SEIB' Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Stubborn Pilot Bushing
>>>> I don't have a welder or any experience with one. Thanks
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: B. SEIB [mailto:oldwheel at shaw.ca] 
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2017 12:51 PM To: 
>>>> mbefthomas at comcast.net; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com Subject: 
>>>> [DeTomaso] Stubborn Pilot Bushing
>>>> Mike I assume it is the hardened outer race that is left in the end 
>>>> of the
>> crank.
>>>> If that is the case, an old trick for removing blind end bearings 
>>>> like that is to put a little arc weld on several places around the 
>>>> inside of the race without welding it to the crank. This is 
>>>> actually easier to do than it sounds. The weld expands the race 
>>>> when it heats up and it contracts with the weld so that it will be 
>>>> quite easy to remove after cooling. I've used this method for 
>>>> removing steering head bearing races in motorcycles in
>> the past.
>>>>
>>>> PS Make sure you isolate or remove your electronic ignition before 
>>>> you
>> weld.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck! Barry 
>>>> _____________________________________________________________________ 
>>>> _______ __ Mike Thomas mbefthomas at comcast.net Wed Jan 25 
>>>> 21:30:09 EST 2017
>>>> OK, guys, I need some suggestions from the collective.
>>>> I'm getting ready to put a new clutch into 6328, and am doing the 
>>>> usual due diligence by replacing the pilot bushing.  The one trying 
>>>> to remove is a needle-bearing type.  I had to drive it in bit when 
>>>> I put it in about 6 years ago.  I am now at the point where I've 
>>>> trashed one bearing puller, completely pulled the guts out of the 
>>>> bearing part of the bushing except for the race  and the steel 
>>>> surrounding it.  Trying a second puller and it's not working.  
>>>> There is only a round edge of the inner lip of the bearing race 
>>>> left.  When I removed this ones' predecessor, I used the 
>>>> fill-it-with-grease-and-beat-the-crap-(and grease) 
>>>> out-of-it-with-a-socket method, and it finally worked.  Made me 
>>>> nervous beating on the end of the crank that way for 20 minutes.  
>>>> As it is now, just the race is left of the bearing in the center, 
>>>> with lips (or what's left of them) fore and aft, so there is not a 
>>>> clean shaft to put a socket or other in to try the grease thing 
>>>> again.  I'm beginning to think I need to file the outer lip off of 
>>>> the remains of the race and tap it for a bolt, then get a slide 
>>>> hammer and start working
>> on it, or . . .?  I'm likely need to try to remove the inner race to 
>> do the tap as that's likely all I'll pull out by tapping it.
>>>>
>>>> Any and all suggestions are welcome.  Engine is still in the car.  
>>>> I'm drizzling penetrating oil on the steel insert part of the 
>>>> bearing twice daily in hopes I can still get enough pull with 
>>>> puller #2.
>>>> Thanks . . . Mike Thomas Pres., Panteras Northwest Yellow '74 #6328
>>>> _______________________________________________
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