[DeTomaso] Longchamp spyder questions....
Mark Charlton
pantera01826 at rogers.com
Mon Jan 9 18:01:32 EST 2017
Hi Patrick,
Until a real expert jumps in, here are my answers to the best of my knowledge.
> 1. Were the Spyders ( type 1 and type 2 ) built AT or BY the factory ,
> or were they built - (i.e. converted ) A at /by PAVESI in Milano ?
> Where there any conversions by other body shops ?A
All were converted by Pavesi as far as I know.
> 2. Does anyone know how many spyders with narrow fenders were built ?
> And with “wide body" A ?A
While I don’t know exactly how many Spyders were built, I do know (from a factory letter dated June 1992) that 11 of them only were GTS/GTSE so the rest were all narrow.
> 3. Did they all come with 8 inch wheels in the front , and 10 at the
> back ? Were the wheels the same as the Pantera ( how many slots ? )A
> Only the GTS/GTSE received 8” and 10” wheels (same as the Pantera wheels). All “narrow” Longchamps received a different 7” wheel (same as the Deauville I believe)
> 4. How does it feel driving ? With the ZF ? With the 3 speed automatic
> gearbox ? How about the handling ? A drunken ship , or "something
> reasonably vague " due to the weight and the lack of chassis rigidity
> ?A
My car was one of the 10 (again, based on a factory letter which contradicts common belief that there were 17 manuals) was built with a ZF 5-speed. NONE of the 5-speed cars were Spyders so if you find one, it was converted later (as many Longchamps have been). In my opinion, the Longchamp is a very nice handling car. Of course I am NOT comparing it to a GR4 Pantera… The ride is very compliant. The power steering is a bit on the numb side, but does make the car feel very light and agile.
> 5. Did they all originally come with LHD, and the RHD were later
> conversions , performed at the factory / at Pavesi ?A
This I do not know except that there were RHD cars.
> 6. Has anyone experienced the conversion from RHD to LHD or vice versa
> ? Has it ever been done, like it sometimesA A happens on the Pantera (
> Mike Miller …. )
I can’t really help with this, but ANYTHING can be done with enough money.
> 7. I have been told by a present owner, that no less than 3 different
> types of engines were used on the first models . True ?A What engines
> ? Which one is the best ?
That is the first I have heard this. As far as I am aware, ALL Longchamps received the 351 Cleveland V8. Perhaps they meant the various compression ratios as were changed through the life of Cleveland development?
> 8. Any suggestion to discreetly improve the handling if need be, while
> keeping the original look A ?
Why would you? It handles fairly well as-is. New bushes and stiffer springs will tighten it up, but perhaps you will like the “luxe” ride as it is. I certainly do.
> 9. Does anyone have a copy of the service book ? The chassis, brakes
> A and suspensions are totally different from a Pantera. Where can we
> find original spares ? Where did A Alejandro buy some of the components
> ? ( from what other brand ? Alfa, Lancia, Peugeot ….???A
There is not a service book that I have ever seen. There is a Parts Book, usually available on eBay but as usual, it lists only the De Tomaso part numbers. There are some shared parts with the Pantera (Group3 brakes, exterior door handles, tail lights, GT5 seat hardware and some other small bits throughout). Other parts that are not unique to the Longchamp/Deaville were “bin-sourced” from other Italian or European cars (Ford Granada or Audi headlamps (4 round) and signal lights, various switches and so on).
> 10. How about the brake calipers and disks ?A
Group3 Pantera as far as I am aware.
> In the EU , prices presently vary from a mere 35.000 euros for a wreck
> ( a coupe) A in Germany, to 185.000 euros ( a concours GTS cabrio ) in
> Switzerland. What is , in your opinion, a fair price for a fair cabrio
> ( not concours, but in good driving condition )
They are so rare that if one comes up for sale, then that is what the price is. If you buy it then it was “worth” that price. :-) I think anything over €100K had better be a very nice car indeed, in my opinion.
> How would you rate the
> purchase of a Longchamp as an investment for the years to come A ?A
I think there might be some room to grow in value, but it’s more likely the price peak has been reached for a while. Those of us who loved these cars in our youth are getting on, and that is why so many cars are being sold now (I believe).
> Any additional suggestion or remarks welcome
I think they are beautiful cars. SO much easier to get in and out of than a Pantera. They have room for 4 ACTUAL adults AND a fair load of luggage. The 351 pulls the car along beautifully with the 5 speed ZF, but I understand the 3 speed auto box is pretty unimpressive.
A photo of mine is attached below.
Cheers!
Mark Charlton
pantera01826 at rogers.com
> On Jan 9, 2017, at 1:22 PM, Patrick HALS <patrickhals at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have interest in one of the less known DT models, the Longchamp
> Spyder GTS ( or GTSE ? ), type 2 ( VIN's 3000 and above ) .
> I think that this car, as a convertible, deserves more recognition than
> it presently has, ( so do all the DT's in general ) and I know that I
> am not only one sharing this idea A :>))) . It is a spectacular car in
> cabrio ( I like the coupA(c) less , but I am obviously a cabrio fan,
> whatever the brand ) , it is spectacularly rare, A it should be a very
> fast 4 seater, ( just because of the engine that we all love ) and the
> look is absolutely stunning, even ( and this is rare ) with the top on
> ! A . Two or three years ago, I had acquired a beautiful Aston V8
> cabrio from 1984, with a fantastic and beautifully designed engine ( so
> they say.... ) A and that was a terrible disappointment when i drove
> it. It was heavy, lacked power and torque, lacked precision in the
> driving, however all the suspension elements had been professionnally
> replaced... it felt like an overloaded boat carrying too many anchors
> .... I just hope the Longchamp does not feel the same on the road, due
> to its enormous weight . When I look at the announced weight, and
> knowing how Italians are romantically optimistic ( I am part of them,
> so to speak A ) I am afraid of the possible result ....A
> I have gone over almost everything I could easily find on the net over
> this model, and also consulted my old original 1994 Bill Van Ess
> registry that I preciously keep in my library. I of course, consulted
> Chuck's precious registry, but still, there are some important and
> unanswered questions. BTW, I noticed that the Longchamp section was not
> as "clean" and "user friendly" as the Pantera section, and if possible,
> I will be gladly cooperating to improve it if possible, for our
> community.
> Well, the result I have gathered so far is quite uncomplete , and there
> are some basic questions that remain unanswered.A
> So, my dearest "think tank" , here I am...
> 1. Were the Spyders ( type 1 and type 2 ) built AT or BY the factory ,
> or were they built - (i.e. converted ) A at /by PAVESI in Milano ?
> Where there any conversions by other body shops ?A
> 2. Does anyone know how many spyders with narrow fenders were built ?
> And with "wide body" A ?A
> 3. Did they all come with 8 inch wheels in the front , and 10 at the
> back ? Were the wheels the same as the Pantera ( how many slots ? )A
> 4. How does it feel driving ? With the ZF ? With the 3 speed automatic
> gearbox ? How about the handling ? A drunken ship , or "something
> reasonably vague " due to the weight and the lack of chassis rigidity
> ?A
> 5. Did they all originally come with LHD, and the RHD were later
> conversions , performed at the factory / at Pavesi ?A
> 6. Has anyone experienced the conversion from RHD to LHD or vice versa
> ? Has it ever been done, like it sometimesA A happens on the Pantera (
> Mike Miller .... )
> 7. I have been told by a present owner, that no less than 3 different
> types of engines were used on the first models . True ?A What engines
> ? Which one is the best ?
> 8. Any suggestion to discreetly improve the handling if need be, while
> keeping the original look A ?
> 9. Does anyone have a copy of the service book ? The chassis, brakes
> A and suspensions are totally different from a Pantera. Where can we
> find original spares ? Where did A Alejandro buy some of the components
> ? ( from what other brand ? Alfa, Lancia, Peugeot ....???A
> 10. How about the brake calipers and disks ?A
> In the EU , prices presently vary from a mere 35.000 euros for a wreck
> ( a coupe) A in Germany, to 185.000 euros ( a concours GTS cabrio ) in
> Switzerland. What is , in your opinion, a fair price for a fair cabrio
> ( not concours, but in good driving condition ) How would you rate the
> purchase of a Longchamp as an investment for the years to come A ?A
> Any additional suggestion or remarks welcome A
> Many many thanks to all, and Happy New Year from freezing Brussels
> A !A
> Pat
> Candy 2862
> ADA 9628
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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-------------- next part --------------
Hi Patrick,
Until a real expert jumps in, here are my answers to the best of my
knowledge.
1. Were the Spyders ( type 1 and type 2 ) built AT or BY the
factory ,
or were they built - (i.e. converted ) A at /by PAVESI in Milano
?
Where there any conversions by other body shops ?A
All were converted by Pavesi as far as I know.
2. Does anyone know how many spyders with narrow fenders were
built ?
And with "wide body" A ?A
While I don't know exactly how many Spyders were built, I do know (from
a factory letter dated June 1992) that 11 of them only were GTS/GTSE so
the rest were all narrow.
3. Did they all come with 8 inch wheels in the front , and 10 at
the
back ? Were the wheels the same as the Pantera ( how many slots ?
)A
Only the GTS/GTSE received 8" and 10" wheels (same as the Pantera
wheels). All "narrow" Longchamps received a different 7" wheel (same
as the Deauville I believe)
4. How does it feel driving ? With the ZF ? With the 3 speed
automatic
gearbox ? How about the handling ? A drunken ship , or "something
reasonably vague " due to the weight and the lack of chassis
rigidity
?A
My car was one of the 10 (again, based on a factory letter which
contradicts common belief that there were 17 manuals) was built with a
ZF 5-speed. NONE of the 5-speed cars were Spyders so if you find one,
it was converted later (as many Longchamps have been). In my opinion,
the Longchamp is a very nice handling car. Of course I am NOT comparing
it to a GR4 Pantera... The ride is very compliant. The power steering
is a bit on the numb side, but does make the car feel very light and
agile.
5. Did they all originally come with LHD, and the RHD were later
conversions , performed at the factory / at Pavesi ?A
This I do not know except that there were RHD cars.
6. Has anyone experienced the conversion from RHD to LHD or vice
versa
? Has it ever been done, like it sometimesA A happens on the
Pantera (
Mike Miller .... )
I can't really help with this, but ANYTHING can be done with enough
money.
7. I have been told by a present owner, that no less than 3
different
types of engines were used on the first models . True ?A What
engines
? Which one is the best ?
That is the first I have heard this. As far as I am aware, ALL
Longchamps received the 351 Cleveland V8. Perhaps they meant the
various compression ratios as were changed through the life of
Cleveland development?
8. Any suggestion to discreetly improve the handling if need be,
while
keeping the original look A ?
Why would you? It handles fairly well as-is. New bushes and stiffer
springs will tighten it up, but perhaps you will like the "luxe" ride
as it is. I certainly do.
9. Does anyone have a copy of the service book ? The chassis,
brakes
A and suspensions are totally different from a Pantera. Where can
we
find original spares ? Where did A Alejandro buy some of the
components
? ( from what other brand ? Alfa, Lancia, Peugeot ....???A
There is not a service book that I have ever seen. There is a Parts
Book, usually available on eBay but as usual, it lists only the De
Tomaso part numbers. There are some shared parts with the Pantera
(Group3 brakes, exterior door handles, tail lights, GT5 seat hardware
and some other small bits throughout). Other parts that are not unique
to the Longchamp/Deaville were "bin-sourced" from other Italian or
European cars (Ford Granada or Audi headlamps (4 round) and signal
lights, various switches and so on).
10. How about the brake calipers and disks ?A
Group3 Pantera as far as I am aware.
In the EU , prices presently vary from a mere 35.000 euros for a
wreck
( a coupe) A in Germany, to 185.000 euros ( a concours GTS cabrio
) in
Switzerland. What is , in your opinion, a fair price for a fair
cabrio
( not concours, but in good driving condition )
They are so rare that if one comes up for sale, then that is what the
price is. If you buy it then it was "worth" that price. :-) I think
anything over EUR100K had better be a very nice car indeed, in my
opinion.
How would you rate the
purchase of a Longchamp as an investment for the years to come A
?A
I think there might be some room to grow in value, but it's more likely
the price peak has been reached for a while. Those of us who loved
these cars in our youth are getting on, and that is why so many cars
are being sold now (I believe).
Any additional suggestion or remarks welcome
I think they are beautiful cars. SO much easier to get in and out of
than a Pantera. They have room for 4 ACTUAL adults AND a fair load of
luggage. The 351 pulls the car along beautifully with the 5 speed ZF,
but I understand the 3 speed auto box is pretty unimpressive.
A photo of mine is attached below.
Cheers!
Mark Charlton
[1]pantera01826 at rogers.com
[cid:49271FBB-D1A7-430F-B06F-7FD41C52E375 at no-dns-available.example.com]
On Jan 9, 2017, at 1:22 PM, Patrick HALS <[2]patrickhals at gmail.com>
wrote:
I have interest in one of the less known DT models, the Longchamp
Spyder GTS ( or GTSE ? ), type 2 ( VIN's 3000 and above ) .
I think that this car, as a convertible, deserves more recognition
than
it presently has, ( so do all the DT's in general ) and I know that I
am not only one sharing this idea A :>))) . It is a spectacular car
in
cabrio ( I like the coupA(c) less , but I am obviously a cabrio fan,
whatever the brand ) , it is spectacularly rare, A it should be a
very
fast 4 seater, ( just because of the engine that we all love ) and
the
look is absolutely stunning, even ( and this is rare ) with the top
on
! A . Two or three years ago, I had acquired a beautiful Aston V8
cabrio from 1984, with a fantastic and beautifully designed engine (
so
they say.... ) A and that was a terrible disappointment when i drove
it. It was heavy, lacked power and torque, lacked precision in the
driving, however all the suspension elements had been professionnally
replaced... it felt like an overloaded boat carrying too many anchors
.... I just hope the Longchamp does not feel the same on the road,
due
to its enormous weight . When I look at the announced weight, and
knowing how Italians are romantically optimistic ( I am part of them,
so to speak A ) I am afraid of the possible result ....A
I have gone over almost everything I could easily find on the net
over
this model, and also consulted my old original 1994 Bill Van Ess
registry that I preciously keep in my library. I of course, consulted
Chuck's precious registry, but still, there are some important and
unanswered questions. BTW, I noticed that the Longchamp section was
not
as "clean" and "user friendly" as the Pantera section, and if
possible,
I will be gladly cooperating to improve it if possible, for our
community.
Well, the result I have gathered so far is quite uncomplete , and
there
are some basic questions that remain unanswered.A
So, my dearest "think tank" , here I am...
1. Were the Spyders ( type 1 and type 2 ) built AT or BY the factory
,
or were they built - (i.e. converted ) A at /by PAVESI in Milano ?
Where there any conversions by other body shops ?A
2. Does anyone know how many spyders with narrow fenders were built ?
And with "wide body" A ?A
3. Did they all come with 8 inch wheels in the front , and 10 at the
back ? Were the wheels the same as the Pantera ( how many slots ? )A
4. How does it feel driving ? With the ZF ? With the 3 speed
automatic
gearbox ? How about the handling ? A drunken ship , or "something
reasonably vague " due to the weight and the lack of chassis rigidity
?A
5. Did they all originally come with LHD, and the RHD were later
conversions , performed at the factory / at Pavesi ?A
6. Has anyone experienced the conversion from RHD to LHD or vice
versa
? Has it ever been done, like it sometimesA A happens on the Pantera
(
Mike Miller .... )
7. I have been told by a present owner, that no less than 3 different
types of engines were used on the first models . True ?A What
engines
? Which one is the best ?
8. Any suggestion to discreetly improve the handling if need be,
while
keeping the original look A ?
9. Does anyone have a copy of the service book ? The chassis, brakes
A and suspensions are totally different from a Pantera. Where can we
find original spares ? Where did A Alejandro buy some of the
components
? ( from what other brand ? Alfa, Lancia, Peugeot ....???A
10. How about the brake calipers and disks ?A
In the EU , prices presently vary from a mere 35.000 euros for a
wreck
( a coupe) A in Germany, to 185.000 euros ( a concours GTS cabrio )
in
Switzerland. What is , in your opinion, a fair price for a fair
cabrio
( not concours, but in good driving condition ) How would you rate
the
purchase of a Longchamp as an investment for the years to come A ?A
Any additional suggestion or remarks welcome A
Many many thanks to all, and Happy New Year from freezing Brussels
A !A
Pat
Candy 2862
ADA 9628
_______________________________________________
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References
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