[DeTomaso] Cabin heat question
B Hower
b.hower3400 at yahoo.com
Sun Feb 19 18:11:09 EST 2017
I enjoyed reading the information and hopefully got some good information for future up grades for Lolita. Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be ! )
From: Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
To: fred at creekspeak.com; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Cabin heat question
In a message dated 2/17/17 9:05:35 PM, fred at creekspeak.com writes:
I have read the different problems with unwanted heat in the Pantera
cabin. I heard the console kick panels need to be shortened, one or
more of the control levers are backwards, and a hardware store valve is
needed to shut off the water to the heater. What is the real solution?
When I turn on the fan it blows hot air even with all 3 levers to the
left. I can turn on th AC compressor all the way with the fan and it
will blow cool, but that isn't a good solution. Can someone please
EMAIL me with directions so I can print it out easier. As usual, Thanks
for your time and incredible expertise.
>>>Fred,
It's time to shed some light on all of this, as it can be confusing and
there is a lot of misinformation out there.
I've never heard of shortening the console kick panels? I don't
understand what that could possibly achieve, but would be interested to
know the story? The kick panel on the driver's side is intrusive
against the gas pedal and there is much to be gained by securing it to
the center chassis structure with a sheetmetal screw and fender washer,
but that's not a cabin heat issue. So please elaborate and tell us
what you've heard about this?
Heat pours into the cabin from three distinct sources:
1) The heater itself
2) The firewall
3) The center tunnel
I'll address each of them in turn.
1) The stock heater control valve was likely a standard European Ford
part, although I don't know the source. It might have come from an
industrial product such as a Ford transit van, or perhaps something
else? It's difficult to know, because the valve is mounted to a
bracket and sold as an assembly, and that assembly has a
Pantera-specific part number.
All Ford heater valves, from just about any Ford you can name, have the
same number, it's 18495. If you do a Google image search on "18475-A"
you will see a million different valves, all of them wrong for the
Pantera. The prefix sets out the specific Ford model the valve is used
in. The original Pantera part number is D16Y 18495-A (D16Y is 1971
spec), in the 1972 Ford parts book (which most people have never
seen--I only have a scanned copy). The later, orange-colored parts
book has an updated revision part of D36Y 18495-A (from 1973). I don't
know what the difference is between the two valves however. I have two
of the latter valves in the original Ford boxes, destined for my and
Lori's Panteras (someday).
Anyway. The stock valve is a plunger affair, as opposed to a rotary,
ball-style valve. Moving the lever moves a plunger in and out which
varies the amount of water that flows through the heater core (and in
theory, blocks it completely when it is fully shut). The odd thing
about it is that it doesn't just have a single input and single output,
as you might expect. Instead, it has provisions to be threaded to a
metal pipe which comes out of the heater core, as well as provisions
for TWO hoses. The parts book shows only one of those two hose
connections being used, so I truly have no idea what's going on with
the other one. Perhaps somebody who has a highly original Pantera can
shed some light on the plumbing scheme?
The seals in those valves can break down, and they can leak, so that
the heater is always 'on' even when the lever is closed. The valves
can also freeze in position if they aren't actuated periodically. Many
Panteras I've seen have had their stock valves replaced with generic
one-hose valves, readily available at any parts store. These probably
seal better, but they require far greater effort to actuate, and can
often overwhelm the relatively feeble stock control cable and lever
(particular the plastic lever in the later cars--the early cars used
pot metal levers and it's not uncommon to find later cars with
broken-off heater valve levers).
Lori's Pantera has such a valve installed (by a previous owner) and
it's almost impossible to move. In practice, we just keep it in the
'on' position all the timea|.
a|which leads us to the first 'fix', one commonly performed and likely
found on the majority of the Panteras out there. The heater is
supplied by two hoses/pipes; an outlet on the front of the engine
block, and an inlet on the water pump. In practice, most people
install manual shutoff valves in the engine bay on both inlet and
outlet hoses, or alternately, just bypass the heater entirely and run a
hose directly from the engine outlet to the water pump inlet.
Either of these schemes is desirable for several reasons, not the least
of which is safety. If the hoses from the metal pipes in the center of
the cabin to the heater matrix have never been changed, they are a
genuine danger and can lead to all sorts of catastrophes if one
bursts. Just in the past few days you have heard first-hand testimony
from owners (including Jackie Stewart) who experienced a combination of
burns and fright when a heater hose burst and the cabin filled with
steam. What you haven't heard is the testimony from owners who
literally wrecked their cars as a result. One well-known person was
running his car at a dragstrip in Dallas, and managed to find the wall
and smash the hell out of his Pantera when the hose burst and
high-pressure scalding water burned his feet and blinded him.
Yow.
Besides safety, addressing your original query, the metal pipes that
carry water to and from the heater will radiate heat into the cabin,
especially if the heater valve is leaking. Preventing water from
entering those pipes (either through the use of external shutoff valves
or a bypass arrangement) goes a long way towards reducing cabin heat.
In Lori's car, we keep the in-cabin valve open all the time, and the
external valves closed. On those rare occasions where heat is desired,
it's a simple matter to open up the external valves, in which case the
heater performs quite nicely, as intended. My car has the heater
completely bypassed, but one day I do hope to plumb it and get it
working properly.
If you still have an original plunger-type valve, hopefully it still
moves freely. If you are feeling ambitious, you can disconnect the
inlet and outlet hoses from the engine, close the valve, and then test
using compressed air or vacuum to see if it leaks. If so, Larry Stock
has heater valve rebuild kits available (and, I presume, will sell a
rebuilt stock valve on an exchange basis).
2) There is an awful lot of heat right behind you in the form of a
hulking great engine. There is not much between you and that engine
except for a steel firewall and some very rudimentary heatproofing
material, and the upholstered fiberglass interior back panel. There is
much to be gained by adding additional insulating material between the
steel firewall and the fiberglass panel. Actually, if one is making
the effort, it makes sense to kill two birds with one stone and also
install a layer of Dynamat or similar vibration-absorbing mat. While
this won't do an awful lot for heat (it does supposedly do something),
it will dampen vibration and reduce perceived noise in the cabin.
With a layer of Dynamat applied to the firewall, then one or more
layers of heat insulation can then be applied atop it. There is plenty
of airspace between the firewall and the back side of the fiberglass
interior panel, which can be safely occupied by heat insulation. More
is always better here, and there is absolutely nothing to be lost by
doubling or even tripling up on such insulation.
3) Similarly, the center tunnel is a prime source of radiant heat, not
only from the heater pipes, but also (and more significantly), from the
undercar pipes that transmit water to and from the radiator. If you
ever drive your Pantera with the center interior console removed, you
will find the center steel box structure can become too hot to touch!
This is another area that benefits from the Dynamat/heat insulation
treatment. Even if the heater pipes are blocked off or disconnected,
enough heat from the radiator pipes makes its way into the cabin that
it is worthwhile to insulate the center box structure as much as
possible.
Finally, it's worth mentioning that any and all holes in the firewall
should be hunted down and blocked off. I was once riding in a friend's
Pantera, and my right elbow was almost burned by hot air blowing around
the back panel and onto the back edge of the passenger door. It turns
out he had a hole in the firewall, and very hot air was blasting into
the cabin, wholly unnoticed by the owner because it was on the
passenger side. We removed the interior panel to investigate and found
some unused access holes for A/C lines that had been removed. Plugging
those holes made a huge difference in cabin comfort immediately.
FWIW, years ago Gray Gregory and I shared my Pantera on the drive to
the POCA Fun Rally. Crossing the Sierra Nevada mountains, we had to
pull over and stop to put on jackets because my cabin was so cold! So
believe me, you don't need to suffer with cabin heat. Fortunately it's
relatively easy and inexpensive to eliminate it almost entirely.
Good luck!
Mike
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Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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-------------- next part --------------
I enjoyed reading the information and hopefully got some good
information for future up grades for Lolita.
Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be
! )
__________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
To: fred at creekspeak.com; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Cabin heat question
In a message dated 2/17/17 9:05:35 PM, [1]fred at creekspeak.com writes:
I have read the different problems with unwanted heat in the Pantera
cabin. I heard the console kick panels need to be shortened, one or
more of the control levers are backwards, and a hardware store valve
is
needed to shut off the water to the heater. What is the real
solution?
When I turn on the fan it blows hot air even with all 3 levers to the
left. I can turn on th AC compressor all the way with the fan and it
will blow cool, but that isn't a good solution. Can someone please
EMAIL me with directions so I can print it out easier. As usual,
Thanks
for your time and incredible expertise.
>>>Fred,
It's time to shed some light on all of this, as it can be confusing
and
there is a lot of misinformation out there.
I've never heard of shortening the console kick panels? I don't
understand what that could possibly achieve, but would be interested
to
know the story? The kick panel on the driver's side is intrusive
against the gas pedal and there is much to be gained by securing it
to
the center chassis structure with a sheetmetal screw and fender
washer,
but that's not a cabin heat issue. So please elaborate and tell us
what you've heard about this?
Heat pours into the cabin from three distinct sources:
1) The heater itself
2) The firewall
3) The center tunnel
I'll address each of them in turn.
1) The stock heater control valve was likely a standard European
Ford
part, although I don't know the source. It might have come from an
industrial product such as a Ford transit van, or perhaps something
else? It's difficult to know, because the valve is mounted to a
bracket and sold as an assembly, and that assembly has a
Pantera-specific part number.
All Ford heater valves, from just about any Ford you can name, have
the
same number, it's 18495. If you do a Google image search on
"18475-A"
you will see a million different valves, all of them wrong for the
Pantera. The prefix sets out the specific Ford model the valve is
used
in. The original Pantera part number is D16Y 18495-A (D16Y is 1971
spec), in the 1972 Ford parts book (which most people have never
seen--I only have a scanned copy). The later, orange-colored parts
book has an updated revision part of D36Y 18495-A (from 1973). I
don't
know what the difference is between the two valves however. I have
two
of the latter valves in the original Ford boxes, destined for my and
Lori's Panteras (someday).
Anyway. The stock valve is a plunger affair, as opposed to a rotary,
ball-style valve. Moving the lever moves a plunger in and out which
varies the amount of water that flows through the heater core (and in
theory, blocks it completely when it is fully shut). The odd thing
about it is that it doesn't just have a single input and single
output,
as you might expect. Instead, it has provisions to be threaded to a
metal pipe which comes out of the heater core, as well as provisions
for TWO hoses. The parts book shows only one of those two hose
connections being used, so I truly have no idea what's going on with
the other one. Perhaps somebody who has a highly original Pantera
can
shed some light on the plumbing scheme?
The seals in those valves can break down, and they can leak, so that
the heater is always 'on' even when the lever is closed. The valves
can also freeze in position if they aren't actuated periodically.
Many
Panteras I've seen have had their stock valves replaced with generic
one-hose valves, readily available at any parts store. These
probably
seal better, but they require far greater effort to actuate, and can
often overwhelm the relatively feeble stock control cable and lever
(particular the plastic lever in the later cars--the early cars used
pot metal levers and it's not uncommon to find later cars with
broken-off heater valve levers).
Lori's Pantera has such a valve installed (by a previous owner) and
it's almost impossible to move. In practice, we just keep it in the
'on' position all the timea|.
a|which leads us to the first 'fix', one commonly performed and
likely
found on the majority of the Panteras out there. The heater is
supplied by two hoses/pipes; an outlet on the front of the engine
block, and an inlet on the water pump. In practice, most people
install manual shutoff valves in the engine bay on both inlet and
outlet hoses, or alternately, just bypass the heater entirely and run
a
hose directly from the engine outlet to the water pump inlet.
Either of these schemes is desirable for several reasons, not the
least
of which is safety. If the hoses from the metal pipes in the center
of
the cabin to the heater matrix have never been changed, they are a
genuine danger and can lead to all sorts of catastrophes if one
bursts. Just in the past few days you have heard first-hand
testimony
from owners (including Jackie Stewart) who experienced a combination
of
burns and fright when a heater hose burst and the cabin filled with
steam. What you haven't heard is the testimony from owners who
literally wrecked their cars as a result. One well-known person was
running his car at a dragstrip in Dallas, and managed to find the
wall
and smash the hell out of his Pantera when the hose burst and
high-pressure scalding water burned his feet and blinded him.
Yow.
Besides safety, addressing your original query, the metal pipes that
carry water to and from the heater will radiate heat into the cabin,
especially if the heater valve is leaking. Preventing water from
entering those pipes (either through the use of external shutoff
valves
or a bypass arrangement) goes a long way towards reducing cabin heat.
In Lori's car, we keep the in-cabin valve open all the time, and the
external valves closed. On those rare occasions where heat is
desired,
it's a simple matter to open up the external valves, in which case
the
heater performs quite nicely, as intended. My car has the heater
completely bypassed, but one day I do hope to plumb it and get it
working properly.
If you still have an original plunger-type valve, hopefully it still
moves freely. If you are feeling ambitious, you can disconnect the
inlet and outlet hoses from the engine, close the valve, and then
test
using compressed air or vacuum to see if it leaks. If so, Larry
Stock
has heater valve rebuild kits available (and, I presume, will sell a
rebuilt stock valve on an exchange basis).
2) There is an awful lot of heat right behind you in the form of a
hulking great engine. There is not much between you and that engine
except for a steel firewall and some very rudimentary heatproofing
material, and the upholstered fiberglass interior back panel. There
is
much to be gained by adding additional insulating material between
the
steel firewall and the fiberglass panel. Actually, if one is making
the effort, it makes sense to kill two birds with one stone and also
install a layer of Dynamat or similar vibration-absorbing mat. While
this won't do an awful lot for heat (it does supposedly do
something),
it will dampen vibration and reduce perceived noise in the cabin.
With a layer of Dynamat applied to the firewall, then one or more
layers of heat insulation can then be applied atop it. There is
plenty
of airspace between the firewall and the back side of the fiberglass
interior panel, which can be safely occupied by heat insulation.
More
is always better here, and there is absolutely nothing to be lost by
doubling or even tripling up on such insulation.
3) Similarly, the center tunnel is a prime source of radiant heat,
not
only from the heater pipes, but also (and more significantly), from
the
undercar pipes that transmit water to and from the radiator. If you
ever drive your Pantera with the center interior console removed, you
will find the center steel box structure can become too hot to touch!
This is another area that benefits from the Dynamat/heat insulation
treatment. Even if the heater pipes are blocked off or disconnected,
enough heat from the radiator pipes makes its way into the cabin that
it is worthwhile to insulate the center box structure as much as
possible.
Finally, it's worth mentioning that any and all holes in the firewall
should be hunted down and blocked off. I was once riding in a
friend's
Pantera, and my right elbow was almost burned by hot air blowing
around
the back panel and onto the back edge of the passenger door. It
turns
out he had a hole in the firewall, and very hot air was blasting into
the cabin, wholly unnoticed by the owner because it was on the
passenger side. We removed the interior panel to investigate and
found
some unused access holes for A/C lines that had been removed.
Plugging
those holes made a huge difference in cabin comfort immediately.
FWIW, years ago Gray Gregory and I shared my Pantera on the drive to
the POCA Fun Rally. Crossing the Sierra Nevada mountains, we had to
pull over and stop to put on jackets because my cabin was so cold!
So
believe me, you don't need to suffer with cabin heat. Fortunately
it's
relatively easy and inexpensive to eliminate it almost entirely.
Good luck!
Mike
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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[2]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[3]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
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References
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