[DeTomaso] Cabin heat question

B Hower b.hower3400 at yahoo.com
Sun Feb 19 18:11:09 EST 2017


I enjoyed reading the information and hopefully got some good information for future up grades for Lolita.  Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be ! )

      From: Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
 To: fred at creekspeak.com; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com 
 Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 4:51 PM
 Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Cabin heat question
   
  In a message dated 2/17/17 9:05:35 PM, fred at creekspeak.com writes:
  I have read the different problems with unwanted heat in the Pantera
  cabin. I heard the console kick panels need to be shortened, one or
  more of the control levers are backwards, and a hardware store valve is
  needed to shut off the water to the heater. What is the real solution?
  When I turn on the fan it blows hot air even with all 3 levers to the
  left. I can turn on th AC compressor all the way with the fan and it
  will blow cool, but that isn't a good solution. Can someone please
  EMAIL me with directions so I can print it out easier. As usual, Thanks
  for your time and incredible expertise.
  >>>Fred,
  It's time to shed some light on all of this, as it can be confusing and
  there is a lot of misinformation out there.
  I've never heard of shortening the console kick panels?  I don't
  understand what that could possibly achieve, but would be interested to
  know the story?  The kick panel on the driver's side is intrusive
  against the gas pedal and there is much to be gained by securing it to
  the center chassis structure with a sheetmetal screw and fender washer,
  but that's not a cabin heat issue.  So please elaborate and tell us
  what you've heard about this?
  Heat pours into the cabin from three distinct sources:
  1)  The heater itself
  2)  The firewall
  3)  The center tunnel
  I'll address each of them in turn.
  1)  The stock heater control valve was likely a standard European Ford
  part, although I don't know the source.  It might have come from an
  industrial product such as a Ford transit van, or perhaps something
  else?  It's difficult to know, because the valve is mounted to a
  bracket and sold as an assembly, and that assembly has a
  Pantera-specific part number.
  All Ford heater valves, from just about any Ford you can name, have the
  same number, it's 18495.  If you do a Google image search on "18475-A"
  you will see a million different valves, all of them wrong for the
  Pantera.  The prefix sets out the specific Ford model the valve is used
  in.  The original Pantera part number is D16Y 18495-A (D16Y is 1971
  spec), in the 1972 Ford parts book (which most people have never
  seen--I only have a scanned copy).  The later, orange-colored parts
  book has an updated revision part of D36Y 18495-A (from 1973).  I don't
  know what the difference is between the two valves however.  I have two
  of the latter valves in the original Ford boxes, destined for my and
  Lori's Panteras (someday).
  Anyway.  The stock valve is a plunger affair, as opposed to a rotary,
  ball-style valve.  Moving the lever moves a plunger in and out which
  varies the amount of water that flows through the heater core (and in
  theory, blocks it completely when it is fully shut).  The odd thing
  about it is that it doesn't just have a single input and single output,
  as you might expect. Instead, it has provisions to be threaded to a
  metal pipe which comes out of the heater core, as well as provisions
  for TWO hoses.  The parts book shows only one of those two hose
  connections being used, so I truly have no idea what's going on with
  the other one.  Perhaps somebody who has a highly original Pantera can
  shed some light on the plumbing scheme?
  The seals in those valves can break down, and they can leak, so that
  the heater is always 'on' even when the lever is closed.  The valves
  can also freeze in position if they aren't actuated periodically.  Many
  Panteras I've seen have had their stock valves replaced with generic
  one-hose valves, readily available at any parts store.  These probably
  seal better, but they require far greater effort to actuate, and can
  often overwhelm the relatively feeble stock control cable and lever
  (particular the plastic lever in the later cars--the early cars used
  pot metal levers and it's not uncommon to find later cars with
  broken-off heater valve levers).
  Lori's Pantera has such a valve installed (by a previous owner) and
  it's almost impossible to move.  In practice, we just keep it in the
  'on' position all the timea|.
  a|which leads us to the first 'fix', one commonly performed and likely
  found on the majority of the Panteras out there.  The heater is
  supplied by two hoses/pipes; an outlet on the front of the engine
  block, and an inlet on the water pump.  In practice, most people
  install manual shutoff valves in the engine bay on both inlet and
  outlet hoses, or alternately, just bypass the heater entirely and run a
  hose directly from the engine outlet to the water pump inlet.
  Either of these schemes is desirable for several reasons, not the least
  of which is safety.  If the hoses from the metal pipes in the center of
  the cabin to the heater matrix have never been changed, they are a
  genuine danger and can lead to all sorts of catastrophes if one
  bursts.  Just in the past few days you have heard first-hand testimony
  from owners (including Jackie Stewart) who experienced a combination of
  burns and fright when a heater hose burst and the cabin filled with
  steam.  What you haven't heard is the testimony from owners who
  literally wrecked their cars as a result.  One well-known person was
  running his car at a dragstrip in Dallas, and managed to find the wall
  and smash the hell out of his Pantera when the hose burst and
  high-pressure scalding water burned his feet and blinded him.
  Yow.
  Besides safety, addressing your original query, the metal pipes that
  carry water to and from the heater will radiate heat into the cabin,
  especially if the heater valve is leaking.  Preventing water from
  entering those pipes (either through the use of external shutoff valves
  or a bypass arrangement) goes a long way towards reducing cabin heat.
  In Lori's car, we keep the in-cabin valve open all the time, and the
  external valves closed.  On those rare occasions where heat is desired,
  it's a simple matter to open up the external valves, in which case the
  heater performs quite nicely, as intended.  My car has the heater
  completely bypassed, but one day I do hope to plumb it and get it
  working properly.
  If you still have an original plunger-type valve, hopefully it still
  moves freely.  If you are feeling ambitious, you can disconnect the
  inlet and outlet hoses from the engine, close the valve, and then test
  using compressed air or vacuum to see if it leaks.  If so, Larry Stock
  has heater valve rebuild kits available (and, I presume, will sell a
  rebuilt stock valve on an exchange basis).
  2)  There is an awful lot of heat right behind you in the form of a
  hulking great engine.  There is not much between you and that engine
  except for a steel firewall and some very rudimentary heatproofing
  material, and the upholstered fiberglass interior back panel.  There is
  much to be gained by adding additional insulating material between the
  steel firewall and the fiberglass panel.  Actually, if one is making
  the effort, it makes sense to kill two birds with one stone and also
  install a layer of Dynamat or similar vibration-absorbing mat.  While
  this won't do an awful lot for heat (it does supposedly do something),
  it will dampen vibration and reduce perceived noise in the cabin.
  With a layer of Dynamat applied to the firewall, then one or more
  layers of heat insulation can then be applied atop it.  There is plenty
  of airspace between the firewall and the back side of the fiberglass
  interior panel, which can be safely occupied by heat insulation.  More
  is always better here, and there is absolutely nothing to be lost by
  doubling or even tripling up on such insulation.
  3)  Similarly, the center tunnel is a prime source of radiant heat, not
  only from the heater pipes, but also (and more significantly), from the
  undercar pipes that transmit water to and from the radiator.  If you
  ever drive your Pantera with the center interior console removed, you
  will find the center steel box structure can become too hot to touch!
  This is another area that benefits from the Dynamat/heat insulation
  treatment.  Even if the heater pipes are blocked off or disconnected,
  enough heat from the radiator pipes makes its way into the cabin that
  it is worthwhile to insulate the center box structure as much as
  possible.
  Finally, it's worth mentioning that any and all holes in the firewall
  should be hunted down and blocked off.  I was once riding in a friend's
  Pantera, and my right elbow was almost burned by hot air blowing around
  the back panel and onto the back edge of the passenger door.  It turns
  out he had a hole in the firewall, and very hot air was blasting into
  the cabin, wholly unnoticed by the owner because it was on the
  passenger side.  We removed the interior panel to investigate and found
  some unused access holes for A/C lines that had been removed.  Plugging
  those holes made a huge difference in cabin comfort immediately.
  FWIW, years ago Gray Gregory and I shared my Pantera on the drive to
  the POCA Fun Rally.  Crossing the Sierra Nevada mountains, we had to
  pull over and stop to put on jackets because my cabin was so cold!  So
  believe me, you don't need to suffer with cabin heat.  Fortunately it's
  relatively easy and inexpensive to eliminate it almost entirely.
  Good luck!
  Mike

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-------------- next part --------------
   I enjoyed reading the information and hopefully got some good
   information for future up grades for Lolita.

   Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be
   ! )
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   To: fred at creekspeak.com; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 4:51 PM
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Cabin heat question
     In a message dated 2/17/17 9:05:35 PM, [1]fred at creekspeak.com writes:
     I have read the different problems with unwanted heat in the Pantera
     cabin. I heard the console kick panels need to be shortened, one or
     more of the control levers are backwards, and a hardware store valve
   is
     needed to shut off the water to the heater. What is the real
   solution?
     When I turn on the fan it blows hot air even with all 3 levers to the
     left. I can turn on th AC compressor all the way with the fan and it
     will blow cool, but that isn't a good solution. Can someone please
     EMAIL me with directions so I can print it out easier. As usual,
   Thanks
     for your time and incredible expertise.
     >>>Fred,
     It's time to shed some light on all of this, as it can be confusing
   and
     there is a lot of misinformation out there.
     I've never heard of shortening the console kick panels?  I don't
     understand what that could possibly achieve, but would be interested
   to
     know the story?  The kick panel on the driver's side is intrusive
     against the gas pedal and there is much to be gained by securing it
   to
     the center chassis structure with a sheetmetal screw and fender
   washer,
     but that's not a cabin heat issue.  So please elaborate and tell us
     what you've heard about this?
     Heat pours into the cabin from three distinct sources:
     1)  The heater itself
     2)  The firewall
     3)  The center tunnel
     I'll address each of them in turn.
     1)  The stock heater control valve was likely a standard European
   Ford
     part, although I don't know the source.  It might have come from an
     industrial product such as a Ford transit van, or perhaps something
     else?  It's difficult to know, because the valve is mounted to a
     bracket and sold as an assembly, and that assembly has a
     Pantera-specific part number.
     All Ford heater valves, from just about any Ford you can name, have
   the
     same number, it's 18495.  If you do a Google image search on
   "18475-A"
     you will see a million different valves, all of them wrong for the
     Pantera.  The prefix sets out the specific Ford model the valve is
   used
     in.  The original Pantera part number is D16Y 18495-A (D16Y is 1971
     spec), in the 1972 Ford parts book (which most people have never
     seen--I only have a scanned copy).  The later, orange-colored parts
     book has an updated revision part of D36Y 18495-A (from 1973).  I
   don't
     know what the difference is between the two valves however.  I have
   two
     of the latter valves in the original Ford boxes, destined for my and
     Lori's Panteras (someday).
     Anyway.  The stock valve is a plunger affair, as opposed to a rotary,
     ball-style valve.  Moving the lever moves a plunger in and out which
     varies the amount of water that flows through the heater core (and in
     theory, blocks it completely when it is fully shut).  The odd thing
     about it is that it doesn't just have a single input and single
   output,
     as you might expect. Instead, it has provisions to be threaded to a
     metal pipe which comes out of the heater core, as well as provisions
     for TWO hoses.  The parts book shows only one of those two hose
     connections being used, so I truly have no idea what's going on with
     the other one.  Perhaps somebody who has a highly original Pantera
   can
     shed some light on the plumbing scheme?
     The seals in those valves can break down, and they can leak, so that
     the heater is always 'on' even when the lever is closed.  The valves
     can also freeze in position if they aren't actuated periodically.
   Many
     Panteras I've seen have had their stock valves replaced with generic
     one-hose valves, readily available at any parts store.  These
   probably
     seal better, but they require far greater effort to actuate, and can
     often overwhelm the relatively feeble stock control cable and lever
     (particular the plastic lever in the later cars--the early cars used
     pot metal levers and it's not uncommon to find later cars with
     broken-off heater valve levers).
     Lori's Pantera has such a valve installed (by a previous owner) and
     it's almost impossible to move.  In practice, we just keep it in the
     'on' position all the timea|.
     a|which leads us to the first 'fix', one commonly performed and
   likely
     found on the majority of the Panteras out there.  The heater is
     supplied by two hoses/pipes; an outlet on the front of the engine
     block, and an inlet on the water pump.  In practice, most people
     install manual shutoff valves in the engine bay on both inlet and
     outlet hoses, or alternately, just bypass the heater entirely and run
   a
     hose directly from the engine outlet to the water pump inlet.
     Either of these schemes is desirable for several reasons, not the
   least
     of which is safety.  If the hoses from the metal pipes in the center
   of
     the cabin to the heater matrix have never been changed, they are a
     genuine danger and can lead to all sorts of catastrophes if one
     bursts.  Just in the past few days you have heard first-hand
   testimony
     from owners (including Jackie Stewart) who experienced a combination
   of
     burns and fright when a heater hose burst and the cabin filled with
     steam.  What you haven't heard is the testimony from owners who
     literally wrecked their cars as a result.  One well-known person was
     running his car at a dragstrip in Dallas, and managed to find the
   wall
     and smash the hell out of his Pantera when the hose burst and
     high-pressure scalding water burned his feet and blinded him.
     Yow.
     Besides safety, addressing your original query, the metal pipes that
     carry water to and from the heater will radiate heat into the cabin,
     especially if the heater valve is leaking.  Preventing water from
     entering those pipes (either through the use of external shutoff
   valves
     or a bypass arrangement) goes a long way towards reducing cabin heat.
     In Lori's car, we keep the in-cabin valve open all the time, and the
     external valves closed.  On those rare occasions where heat is
   desired,
     it's a simple matter to open up the external valves, in which case
   the
     heater performs quite nicely, as intended.  My car has the heater
     completely bypassed, but one day I do hope to plumb it and get it
     working properly.
     If you still have an original plunger-type valve, hopefully it still
     moves freely.  If you are feeling ambitious, you can disconnect the
     inlet and outlet hoses from the engine, close the valve, and then
   test
     using compressed air or vacuum to see if it leaks.  If so, Larry
   Stock
     has heater valve rebuild kits available (and, I presume, will sell a
     rebuilt stock valve on an exchange basis).
     2)  There is an awful lot of heat right behind you in the form of a
     hulking great engine.  There is not much between you and that engine
     except for a steel firewall and some very rudimentary heatproofing
     material, and the upholstered fiberglass interior back panel.  There
   is
     much to be gained by adding additional insulating material between
   the
     steel firewall and the fiberglass panel.  Actually, if one is making
     the effort, it makes sense to kill two birds with one stone and also
     install a layer of Dynamat or similar vibration-absorbing mat.  While
     this won't do an awful lot for heat (it does supposedly do
   something),
     it will dampen vibration and reduce perceived noise in the cabin.
     With a layer of Dynamat applied to the firewall, then one or more
     layers of heat insulation can then be applied atop it.  There is
   plenty
     of airspace between the firewall and the back side of the fiberglass
     interior panel, which can be safely occupied by heat insulation.
   More
     is always better here, and there is absolutely nothing to be lost by
     doubling or even tripling up on such insulation.
     3)  Similarly, the center tunnel is a prime source of radiant heat,
   not
     only from the heater pipes, but also (and more significantly), from
   the
     undercar pipes that transmit water to and from the radiator.  If you
     ever drive your Pantera with the center interior console removed, you
     will find the center steel box structure can become too hot to touch!
     This is another area that benefits from the Dynamat/heat insulation
     treatment.  Even if the heater pipes are blocked off or disconnected,
     enough heat from the radiator pipes makes its way into the cabin that
     it is worthwhile to insulate the center box structure as much as
     possible.
     Finally, it's worth mentioning that any and all holes in the firewall
     should be hunted down and blocked off.  I was once riding in a
   friend's
     Pantera, and my right elbow was almost burned by hot air blowing
   around
     the back panel and onto the back edge of the passenger door.  It
   turns
     out he had a hole in the firewall, and very hot air was blasting into
     the cabin, wholly unnoticed by the owner because it was on the
     passenger side.  We removed the interior panel to investigate and
   found
     some unused access holes for A/C lines that had been removed.
   Plugging
     those holes made a huge difference in cabin comfort immediately.
     FWIW, years ago Gray Gregory and I shared my Pantera on the drive to
     the POCA Fun Rally.  Crossing the Sierra Nevada mountains, we had to
     pull over and stop to put on jackets because my cabin was so cold!
   So
     believe me, you don't need to suffer with cabin heat.  Fortunately
   it's
     relatively easy and inexpensive to eliminate it almost entirely.
     Good luck!
     Mike
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

   1. mailto:fred at creekspeak.com
   2. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   3. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso


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