[DeTomaso] Detomaso SOHC heads?
jderyke at aol.com
jderyke at aol.com
Wed Apr 19 16:53:16 EDT 2017
Don't lose sight of the fact that those SOHC heads seem to be mounted on Windsor straight-valve heads with less efficient combustion chambers & smaller valves & ports than 351-Cs. SOHC .doesn't always yield big power. A decade before, Jack Brabham converted the Buick 215 from pushrods to SOHC for his open-wheel Repco GP cars, and won the Championship twice, even though he admitted to being down by up to 40 bhp over his competition. Brabham said the switch was for reliability over pushrods rather than for extra power. And it's certainly easier with straight valves such as the 351-W & Buick rather than canted as in the Cleveland.
J Deryke
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Greenblum <richard at richardgreenblum.com>
To: detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Apr 19, 2017 7:59 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Detomaso SOHC heads?
I wonder how he would have dealt with the longer crank pulley
setup--the hump would be even larger than it is now, and that's only if
the jack-shafts and cam belt drive cleared the firewall.
Richard
Austin, TX
From: DeTomaso <[1]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of Julian Kift <[2]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 9:51
To: "[3]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com" <[4]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>,
MikeDrew <[5]MikeLDrew at aol.com>, "[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
<[7]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Detomaso SOHC heads?
Mike,
>From your photo it would appear that the heads could indeed be stock
351C with the addition of a bolt on housing (rocker cover) carrying
the
camshaft, which would be the simplest way to get the overhead cam
actuating the valves.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <[8]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf of
Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 3:06 AM
To: [10]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com;
[11]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Detomaso SOHC heads?
In a message dated 4/18/17 23 57 10, [12]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
writes:
Anyone know the story on this engine (see attached photo)?
>>>Sorry I didn't get to this sooner, but 'yes'!
>Detomaso belt driven SOHC heads on a 351C block with dual plane
intake
manifold. Heads and belt drive arrangement are very similar to
the
Ford 289 SOHC experimental engine but the intake (a raw casting)
and
the valve covers are unique. Were these heads developed
independently
or in conjunction with Ford?
I know Detomaso had Weslake produce some pushrod heads that were
very
similar to the Gurney Weslake 2 valve pushrod heads.A Were the
SOHC
heads
developed for the Detomaso Sports 5000 (a.k.a. P70) or some other
racer?
>>>Here's the story, as told to me by Don Coleman, who was an
executive
for
Ford in the 1960s/1970s. He was the head of the smallblock V-8
program
(289/302) during the Gulf GT40 years, and through his friendship
with
Claude
Dubois, he was the fellow that arranged the sale of those engines to
De
Tomaso for the Mangusta. When the Pantera program started ramping
up,
in 1970,
due to his pre-existing relationship with De Tomaso, Ford sent him
to
Modena
to be the sole American coordinating the project with De Tomaso.
The Pantera was designed to use the standard 351C, but De Tomaso
loved
trick, exotic things, and he took it upon himself to have his
engineers
(with
ZERO Ford input) design and construct several examples of an
aluminum
head
SOHC conversion for the stock 351C bottom end. While attention was
primarily
focused on the Pantera, in 1970 De Tomaso had also (on his own, with
only
minimal encouragement from Lee Iacocca) conjured up the Deauville,
and
if you
look at the original cutaway drawing of the Deauville (see link
below),
you
will see that it is equipped with this SOHC engine.
[1][13]https://images.honestjohn.co.uk/imagecache/file/fit/730x700/medi
a/76
19551/De
%20Tomaso%20Deauville%20(3).jpg
The original configuration called for it to have four, two-barrel
Weber
carburetors, but instead of being arranged in the fashion we're most
accustomed
to seeing on Ford V8s like the GT40, and later Pantera race cars,
these
carbs were arranged in-line, like a Ferrari V-12, or Maserati
Quattroporte/Kyalami/Bora. (In fact, the whole carburetor/air
cleaner
arrangement was
virtually identical to the Maseratis, but of course the intake
manifold
was
different).
De Tomaso spent a fortune developing this engine, and proudly walked
into
Don's office one day and announced it was complete. They saw it
run
on a
dyno, and while it worked, and it produced more power than a stock
351C, the
numbers weren't all that much better, and a stock 351C could easily
surpass
it by simply fitting a hotter camshaft. The cost to produce the
SOHC-head
version would triple the cost of the engine, for only a marginal
gain,
so Don
said "thanks but no thanks" and the Pantera got the standard Mustang
engine instead.
De Tomaso was disappointed that his Pantera would be stuck with such
a
plebian motor; he felt that the SOHC conversion would elevate the
status of the
whole car, and thought that Don and Ford were stupid to ignore his
idea.
That was one of many conflicts he had with Don, which finally
resulted
in Don
getting fired from the Pantera project about a year after arriving
in
Modena, and transferred back to Detroit.
(Don, BTW, is a resident of Carmel Valley and presumably will be in
attendance at the upcoming Fun Rally; he was the guest speaker at
the
Las Vegas
POCA Fun Rally about 10-15 years ago).
The last time I visited De Tomaso in Modena, I happened to pass one
of
the
prototype SOHC engines, but only shot one crappy photo (attached).
What is
difficult to make out in this photo is that the valve covers were
cut
away
and fitted with clear windows, so that the engineers could see what
was
happening inside the engine while it was running on the test stand.
Note also that this engine has a single four-barrel intake manifold
as
opposed to the quad-Weber intake. That Weber intake may have
existed
in
drawing form only. While I didn't look closely at the four-barrel
intake, the
impression I got was that the 'hard points' on the cylinder heads
matched
those of the standard 351C heads, so that a conventional 351C intake
would bolt
up to the engine. So if that's true, the intake is probably an
over-the-counter Ford aluminum 351C intake (Dan would know for sure,
I
would assume).
BTW, the photo that Dan shared is of a different engine, which
Wilkinson
bought from De Tomaso some years ago. It's sitting on a stand in
his
shop; I
just saw it there a couple of weeks ago, and meant to take photos of
it,
but I forgot!
Mike
References
1.
[14]https://images.honestjohn.co.uk/imagecache/file/fit/730x700/media/7
619551/De
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-------------- next part --------------
Don't lose sight of the fact that those SOHC heads seem to be mounted
on Windsor straight-valve heads with less efficient combustion chambers
& smaller valves & ports than 351-Cs. SOHC .doesn't always yield big
power. A decade before, Jack Brabham converted the Buick 215 from
pushrods to SOHC for his open-wheel Repco GP cars, and won the
Championship twice, even though he admitted to being down by up to 40
bhp over his competition. Brabham said the switch was for reliability
over pushrods rather than for extra power. And it's certainly easier
with straight valves such as the 351-W & Buick rather than canted as in
the Cleveland.
J Deryke
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Greenblum <richard at richardgreenblum.com>
To: detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Apr 19, 2017 7:59 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Detomaso SOHC heads?
I wonder how he would have dealt with the longer crank pulley
setup--the hump would be even larger than it is now, and that's only if
the jack-shafts and cam belt drive cleared the firewall.
Richard
Austin, TX
From: DeTomaso <[1]detomaso-[1]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf
of Julian Kift <[2][2]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 9:51
To: "[3][3]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com"
<[4][4]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>,
MikeDrew <[5][5]MikeLDrew at aol.com>,
"[6][6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
<[7][7]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Detomaso SOHC heads?
Mike,
From your photo it would appear that the heads could indeed be stock
351C with the addition of a bolt on housing (rocker cover) carrying
the
camshaft, which would be the simplest way to get the overhead cam
actuating the valves.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <[8]detomaso-[8]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf of
Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9][9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 3:06 AM
To: [10][10]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com;
[11][11]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Detomaso SOHC heads?
In a message dated 4/18/17 23 57 10, [12][12]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
writes:
Anyone know the story on this engine (see attached photo)?
>>>Sorry I didn't get to this sooner, but 'yes'!
>Detomaso belt driven SOHC heads on a 351C block with dual plane
intake
manifold. Heads and belt drive arrangement are very similar to
the
Ford 289 SOHC experimental engine but the intake (a raw casting)
and
the valve covers are unique. Were these heads developed
independently
or in conjunction with Ford?
I know Detomaso had Weslake produce some pushrod heads that were
very
similar to the Gurney Weslake 2 valve pushrod heads.A Were the
SOHC
heads
developed for the Detomaso Sports 5000 (a.k.a. P70) or some other
racer?
>>>Here's the story, as told to me by Don Coleman, who was an
executive
for
Ford in the 1960s/1970s. He was the head of the smallblock V-8
program
(289/302) during the Gulf GT40 years, and through his friendship
with
Claude
Dubois, he was the fellow that arranged the sale of those engines to
De
Tomaso for the Mangusta. When the Pantera program started ramping
up,
in 1970,
due to his pre-existing relationship with De Tomaso, Ford sent him
to
Modena
to be the sole American coordinating the project with De Tomaso.
The Pantera was designed to use the standard 351C, but De Tomaso
loved
trick, exotic things, and he took it upon himself to have his
engineers
(with
ZERO Ford input) design and construct several examples of an
aluminum
head
SOHC conversion for the stock 351C bottom end. While attention was
primarily
focused on the Pantera, in 1970 De Tomaso had also (on his own, with
only
minimal encouragement from Lee Iacocca) conjured up the Deauville,
and
if you
look at the original cutaway drawing of the Deauville (see link
below),
you
will see that it is equipped with this SOHC engine.
[1][13][13]https://images.honestjohn.co.uk/imagecache/file/fit/730x700/
medi
a/76
19551/De
%20Tomaso%20Deauville%20(3).jpg
The original configuration called for it to have four, two-barrel
Weber
carburetors, but instead of being arranged in the fashion we're most
accustomed
to seeing on Ford V8s like the GT40, and later Pantera race cars,
these
carbs were arranged in-line, like a Ferrari V-12, or Maserati
Quattroporte/Kyalami/Bora. (In fact, the whole carburetor/air
cleaner
arrangement was
virtually identical to the Maseratis, but of course the intake
manifold
was
different).
De Tomaso spent a fortune developing this engine, and proudly walked
into
Don's office one day and announced it was complete. They saw it
run
on a
dyno, and while it worked, and it produced more power than a stock
351C, the
numbers weren't all that much better, and a stock 351C could easily
surpass
it by simply fitting a hotter camshaft. The cost to produce the
SOHC-head
version would triple the cost of the engine, for only a marginal
gain,
so Don
said "thanks but no thanks" and the Pantera got the standard Mustang
engine instead.
De Tomaso was disappointed that his Pantera would be stuck with such
a
plebian motor; he felt that the SOHC conversion would elevate the
status of the
whole car, and thought that Don and Ford were stupid to ignore his
idea.
That was one of many conflicts he had with Don, which finally
resulted
in Don
getting fired from the Pantera project about a year after arriving
in
Modena, and transferred back to Detroit.
(Don, BTW, is a resident of Carmel Valley and presumably will be in
attendance at the upcoming Fun Rally; he was the guest speaker at
the
Las Vegas
POCA Fun Rally about 10-15 years ago).
The last time I visited De Tomaso in Modena, I happened to pass one
of
the
prototype SOHC engines, but only shot one crappy photo (attached).
What is
difficult to make out in this photo is that the valve covers were
cut
away
and fitted with clear windows, so that the engineers could see what
was
happening inside the engine while it was running on the test stand.
Note also that this engine has a single four-barrel intake manifold
as
opposed to the quad-Weber intake. That Weber intake may have
existed
in
drawing form only. While I didn't look closely at the four-barrel
intake, the
impression I got was that the 'hard points' on the cylinder heads
matched
those of the standard 351C heads, so that a conventional 351C intake
would bolt
up to the engine. So if that's true, the intake is probably an
over-the-counter Ford aluminum 351C intake (Dan would know for sure,
I
would assume).
BTW, the photo that Dan shared is of a different engine, which
Wilkinson
bought from De Tomaso some years ago. It's sitting on a stand in
his
shop; I
just saw it there a couple of weeks ago, and meant to take photos of
it,
but I forgot!
Mike
References
1.
[14][14]https://images.honestjohn.co.uk/imagecache/file/fit/730x700/med
ia/7
619551/De
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