[DeTomaso] New Rear Window and Engine-Bay Cooling Fan
Stephen
steve at snclocks.com
Tue Oct 25 23:41:56 EDT 2016
Asa Jay - thank you for the kind words - and, since you indicated you wanted
to see the article - I'm here to tell you - it's done!
I sent the article to the POCA editor - he indicated he liked it, but would
likely make a short article of the results of my tests, my comments on how
it visually completes the cars design, and maybe Tom Tjaarda's comments. I
think that will make a great short article, but, well, it won't begin to
cover all I wanted to document.
In as much as I've learned not to argue with editors, I think it will be
great to have a short article in one of the POCA publications. But, for
those of you who want more, I went ahead and put the entire article on my
site - Rear Window and Engine Bay Cooling
<http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Automotove-Techinical-Articles/Re
ar-Window-and-Engine-Bay/i-mjm5zbC> Check it out and let me know if
anything needs to be changed - in as much as I quoted a few of you. The
best way to view the article is to read the intro on the page that comes up
when you click the link. Then click on the larger picture of a page of
text. You can then use the arrows to go through the article.
And, yes, like Asa Jay, I would like to get photo's next to other Panteras.
Next time I find one I will park next to it and shoot away!
Stephen Nelson 5332
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf
Of Asa Jay Laughton
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2016 10:20 PM
To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] New Rear Window and Engine-Bay Cooling Fan
I would like to see more photos, outdoors sitting alongside other
Pantera's.
But with that said and only seeing the two photos you have in your
gallery, my opinion has changed. I had my doubts that it would look
significantly different, but I must say that I think adding the rear
window easily adds a few thousand dollars to the car's appeal.
Honestly, I think it gives it a really nice clean look. It -does- look
like it's meant to be there.
You did a great job of engineering to make it work. I'm anxious to
read the article.
:)
Asa Jay
Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired & Shelley Marie Spokane, WA
******************************
[1] <http://w7tsc.org> http://w7tsc.org
[2] <http://www.teampanteraracing.com> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
On 10/1/2016 8:11 PM, Stephen wrote:
For some time I have been thinking about installing a window in the
opening behind 5332's engine compartment. Originally there was meant
to be glass in the opening, but, according to Tom Tjaarda, there were
overheating issues and the window glass was left out.
I decided to firstly see what would happen with the opening blocked off
and the car idling. One 70 degree F day I blocked the opening and let
the car idle while I monitored the inlet air temperature via the remote
for my MSD fuel injection. With a hot engine and a 70 degree ambient
air temperature I saw the inlet air temperature go up at a rate of
roughly a degree Fahrenheit every 2 seconds. I quit the experiment
when the inlet air temperature hit 150F. As an aside, I had previously
noted when I was stuck in traffic on a hot day that the FI would get
finicky if I sat long enough. I figured the issue was excess
temperatures even with the opening behind the engine open.
Clearly it will get right hot in the engine compartment if one blocks
off the opening.
Earlier this year I did a series of tests to see how significant the
air flow was through the opening at speed. My testing showed the air
flow through the opening was around 20 to 25 feet per second (14 to 17
mph) at a road-speeds of 60 to 80 mph. The flow through the opening
equates to an air volume of around 2000 cfm at 70 mph. If I installed
glass in the opening I figured I needed to install a fan to provide a
reasonable flow to keep the engine compartment from overheating -
somewhere around the air flow rate when the car is going 30 mph -
around 800 CFM.
So, given I intended to install a window in the opening to keep from
pulling water and dirt and rocks and grass and whatever is on the road
up onto the engine when driving at speed, as well as to keep folks from
being able to reach in and take whatever they wanted off the top of the
engine, I figured the first step was to figure out how to keep the
engine compartment cool.
Looking at SPAL radiator fans - wow - even a 10" low profile fan puts
out 800 cfm. I thought this would be sufficient.
Next I looked below the car to see where I could hide a fan. Turns out
there is a great space below the coolant surge and swirl tanks - just
behind the bulkhead and above the frame rails. Measurements suggested
that a 10" fan would fit.
Next - how to keep dirt and rocks and leaves and the like from getting
thrown up into the fan. I did an online search for 12 inch circular
screens and found a rather novel solution - 12" stainless steel flour
sieves. Talk about a slick fit - check out this picture:
[1][3]
<http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7>
http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7
wzjK . You can see two of the angle brackets I used to mount the
fan/shroud to the frame rail and inner sill. There is one additional
bracket that mounts to the frame rail. When mounted, as shown in the
next 3 pictures in the above gallery, it is very solid and out of the
way.
I set up a SPAL PWM (pulse width modulated) fan controller with a
Derale 16760 Push-in Radiator Probe to control the fan speed. I like
the PWM controllers - they ramp up fan speed as the temperature goes
above the temperature you choose as your lower target. Then, if the
temperature continues to go up, the fan is at its maximum speed when
the temperature hits your upper target. If you have a second fan, it
will turn on when the temperature hits your upper target. I use one of
these on the radiator fans for 5332 and on the fans for our '69 XKE.
I mounted the temperature sensor to the fuel line going to the FI
throttle body and set the controller to start spinning the fan at 140F,
with an upper limit of 150F, whereupon the fan is spinning at full
speed.
With the opening blocked, the fan, at full speed, brings the inlet air
temperature to the FI system down at about 2 degrees per second.
Worked like a charm!
After installing the new rear window Kels and I joined the PNW Pantera
Group for a run up into British Columbia - going to a car show in
Nelson. Logged around 1200 miles on that trip: The fan only came on
once - when we restarted the car after letting it sit for 30 minutes
while we were in a store. Fan came on, temperature dropped and it shut
off within 30 seconds.
When driving at speeds over 10 mph with the rear window in place the
inlet air temperature held around 40 degrees F above ambient. This
jives with what James Fusco told me - he explained that "the air that
comes into the engine compartment has already gone through the radiator
and along the bottom of the car". OK - that makes sense. And, it is
apparent that, even at fairly low speeds, there is a lot of turbulence
in the engine compartment, which keeps the compartments temperatures as
cool as could be expected, given that the air is coming from below the
car/the radiator.
Fortunately I mounted the engine-compartment cooling fan to one side of
the engine compartment - turning it on at speed does cool the inlet air
temperature. And, when sitting still, the fan is very effective since
it is likely drawing air that has not been through the radiator.
The fan blows air up the passenger side of the engine, across the top
of the engine compartment, and down the other side.
I've included a couple of pictures of the installed window in the above
referenced photo gallery, along with some pictures that I will discuss
when I put together an article for the newsletter. There are
definitely some challenges to getting the rubber around the window laid
in nicely - I will cover those in the article.
I think the rear window finishes the look of the car - it is surprising
to me how much more complete it makes the back of the car look. And,
before anyone howls about modifying the car - well, hmmm - it was
originally intended to be there - except there was no provision for
letting the engine compartment vent hot air when sitting still.
Stephen Nelson
References
1. [4]
<http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzj>
http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzj
K
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-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - [7] <http://www.avg.com> www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13127 - Release Date: 10/01/16
References
1. <http://w7tsc.org/> http://w7tsc.org/
2. <http://www.teampanteraracing.com/> http://www.teampanteraracing.com/
3.
<http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7>
http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7
4.
<http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzjK>
http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzjK
5. <mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
6. <http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso>
http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
7. <http://www.avg.com/> http://www.avg.com/
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They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
Asa Jay - thank you for the kind words - and, since you indicated you
wanted to see the article - I'm here to tell you - it's done!
I sent the article to the POCA editor - he indicated he liked it, but
would likely make a short article of the results of my tests, my
comments on how it visually completes the cars design, and maybe Tom
Tjaarda's comments. I think that will make a great short article, but,
well, it won't begin to cover all I wanted to document.
In as much as I've learned not to argue with editors, I think it will
be great to have a short article in one of the POCA publications. But,
for those of you who want more, I went ahead and put the entire article
on my site - [1]Rear Window and Engine Bay Cooling Check it out and
let me know if anything needs to be changed - in as much as I quoted a
few of you. The best way to view the article is to read the intro on
the page that comes up when you click the link. Then click on the
larger picture of a page of text. You can then use the arrows to go
through the article.
And, yes, like Asa Jay, I would like to get photo's next to other
Panteras. Next time I find one I will park next to it and shoot away!
Stephen Nelson 5332
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On
Behalf Of Asa Jay Laughton
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2016 10:20 PM
To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] New Rear Window and Engine-Bay Cooling Fan
I would like to see more photos, outdoors sitting alongside other
Pantera's.
But with that said and only seeing the two photos you have in your
gallery, my opinion has changed. I had my doubts that it would look
significantly different, but I must say that I think adding the rear
window easily adds a few thousand dollars to the car's appeal.
Honestly, I think it gives it a really nice clean look. It -does-
look
like it's meant to be there.
You did a great job of engineering to make it work. I'm anxious to
read the article.
:)
Asa Jay
Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired & Shelley Marie Spokane,
WA
******************************
[1][2]http://w7tsc.org
[2][3]http://www.teampanteraracing.com
On 10/1/2016 8:11 PM, Stephen wrote:
For some time I have been thinking about installing a window in the
opening behind 5332's engine compartment. Originally there was
meant
to be glass in the opening, but, according to Tom Tjaarda, there
were
overheating issues and the window glass was left out.
I decided to firstly see what would happen with the opening blocked
off
and the car idling. One 70 degree F day I blocked the opening and
let
the car idle while I monitored the inlet air temperature via the
remote
for my MSD fuel injection. With a hot engine and a 70 degree
ambient
air temperature I saw the inlet air temperature go up at a rate of
roughly a degree Fahrenheit every 2 seconds. I quit the experiment
when the inlet air temperature hit 150F. As an aside, I had
previously
noted when I was stuck in traffic on a hot day that the FI would get
finicky if I sat long enough. I figured the issue was excess
temperatures even with the opening behind the engine open.
Clearly it will get right hot in the engine compartment if one
blocks
off the opening.
Earlier this year I did a series of tests to see how significant the
air flow was through the opening at speed. My testing showed the
air
flow through the opening was around 20 to 25 feet per second (14 to
17
mph) at a road-speeds of 60 to 80 mph. The flow through the opening
equates to an air volume of around 2000 cfm at 70 mph. If I
installed
glass in the opening I figured I needed to install a fan to provide
a
reasonable flow to keep the engine compartment from overheating -
somewhere around the air flow rate when the car is going 30 mph -
around 800 CFM.
So, given I intended to install a window in the opening to keep from
pulling water and dirt and rocks and grass and whatever is on the
road
up onto the engine when driving at speed, as well as to keep folks
from
being able to reach in and take whatever they wanted off the top of
the
engine, I figured the first step was to figure out how to keep the
engine compartment cool.
Looking at SPAL radiator fans - wow - even a 10" low profile fan
puts
out 800 cfm. I thought this would be sufficient.
Next I looked below the car to see where I could hide a fan. Turns
out
there is a great space below the coolant surge and swirl tanks -
just
behind the bulkhead and above the frame rails. Measurements
suggested
that a 10" fan would fit.
Next - how to keep dirt and rocks and leaves and the like from
getting
thrown up into the fan. I did an online search for 12 inch circular
screens and found a rather novel solution - 12" stainless steel
flour
sieves. Talk about a slick fit - check out this picture:
[1][3][4]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits
/i-mN7
wzjK . You can see two of the angle brackets I used to mount the
fan/shroud to the frame rail and inner sill. There is one
additional
bracket that mounts to the frame rail. When mounted, as shown in
the
next 3 pictures in the above gallery, it is very solid and out of
the
way.
I set up a SPAL PWM (pulse width modulated) fan controller with a
Derale 16760 Push-in Radiator Probe to control the fan speed. I
like
the PWM controllers - they ramp up fan speed as the temperature goes
above the temperature you choose as your lower target. Then, if the
temperature continues to go up, the fan is at its maximum speed when
the temperature hits your upper target. If you have a second fan,
it
will turn on when the temperature hits your upper target. I use one
of
these on the radiator fans for 5332 and on the fans for our '69 XKE.
I mounted the temperature sensor to the fuel line going to the FI
throttle body and set the controller to start spinning the fan at
140F,
with an upper limit of 150F, whereupon the fan is spinning at full
speed.
With the opening blocked, the fan, at full speed, brings the inlet
air
temperature to the FI system down at about 2 degrees per second.
Worked like a charm!
After installing the new rear window Kels and I joined the PNW
Pantera
Group for a run up into British Columbia - going to a car show in
Nelson. Logged around 1200 miles on that trip: The fan only came
on
once - when we restarted the car after letting it sit for 30 minutes
while we were in a store. Fan came on, temperature dropped and it
shut
off within 30 seconds.
When driving at speeds over 10 mph with the rear window in place the
inlet air temperature held around 40 degrees F above ambient. This
jives with what James Fusco told me - he explained that "the air
that
comes into the engine compartment has already gone through the
radiator
and along the bottom of the car". OK - that makes sense. And, it
is
apparent that, even at fairly low speeds, there is a lot of
turbulence
in the engine compartment, which keeps the compartments temperatures
as
cool as could be expected, given that the air is coming from below
the
car/the radiator.
Fortunately I mounted the engine-compartment cooling fan to one side
of
the engine compartment - turning it on at speed does cool the inlet
air
temperature. And, when sitting still, the fan is very effective
since
it is likely drawing air that has not been through the radiator.
The fan blows air up the passenger side of the engine, across the
top
of the engine compartment, and down the other side.
I've included a couple of pictures of the installed window in the
above
referenced photo gallery, along with some pictures that I will
discuss
when I put together an article for the newsletter. There are
definitely some challenges to getting the rubber around the window
laid
in nicely - I will cover those in the article.
I think the rear window finishes the look of the car - it is
surprising
to me how much more complete it makes the back of the car look.
And,
before anyone howls about modifying the car - well, hmmm - it was
originally intended to be there - except there was no provision for
letting the engine compartment vent hot air when sitting still.
Stephen Nelson
References
1.
[4][5]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-
mN7wzj
K
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
[5][6]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[6][7]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the li nks above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message p osted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of lis t messages.
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - [7][8]www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database: 4656/13127 - Release Date:
10/01/16
References
1. [9]http://w7tsc.org/
2. [10]http://www.teampanteraracing.com/
3.
[11]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN
7
4.
[12]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN
7wzjK
5. [13]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
6. [14]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
7. [15]http://www.avg.com/
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA Posted emails must not
exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
[16]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[17]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Automotove-Techinical-Articles/Rear-Window-and-Engine-Bay/i-mjm5zbC
2. http://w7tsc.org/
3. http://www.teampanteraracing.com/
4. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7
5. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzj
6. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
8. http://www.avg.com/
9. http://w7tsc.org/
10. http://www.teampanteraracing.com/
11. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7
12. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Autos/Technical-Bits/i-mN7wzjK
13. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
14. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
15. http://www.avg.com/
16. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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