[DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
Julian Kift
julian_kift at hotmail.com
Sat Oct 8 10:18:01 EDT 2016
Mike,
The alternator mounting plates come in Ford & GM alternator variants as the mounting on the GM is much narrower, you don't by chance have a Ford bracket with the GM one wire alternator that has not had the correct spacers applied?
If I recall a couple of weeks ago you put me onto the IPSCO product that relocates the alternator tensioner mounting for better tension, having recommende dit do you have that?
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Friday, October 7, 2016 5:51 PM
To: Tomas Gunnarsson
Cc: <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
All,
Check this out. I have never bothered to look at the alternator while the engine was running before, as it can only be seen from under the car.
Today I put the car on the lift and had Lori start it up while I filmed it:
http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew
[https://i.ytimg.com/vi/05CddX-lbew/maxresdefault.jpg]<http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew>
Pantera alternator shake, rattle and roll....<http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew>
youtu.be
Pantera with Kirk Evans flat firewall kit and GM three-wire alternator. After multiple failures I investigated with the engine running and discovered violent...
Look at how violently it's shaking! You can feel it throughout the car--the engine was smooth on the dyno but there is a vibration now.
I haven't yet explored to see WHY it's shaking so much. I wonder if the mounting bolt that came with the kit is the wrong diameter and the alternator is loose even when it's tight?
I can easily imagine this kind of motion being responsible for the problems we have been having, don't you?
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 7, 2016, at 0:29, "Tomas Gunnarsson" <guson at home.se> wrote:
> The AC Delco 10si alternator has nine internal rectifier diodes, see attached pics. The main six diode rectifier bridge is top middle. The triple diode that powers the regulator is to the left of the ball bearing. This triple diode is also what turns off the alternator lamp. If you hook up a load between lamp terminal and ground this bridge will provide power to the load, something it's not designed to do. The result will be burnt out diodes in the diode trio and a loss of power to the regulator which in turn leads to loss of alternator output. Like you I think that the problem is the regulator but the question is why it keeps breaking.
>
> Tomas
>
> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
> From: Guido deTomaso [guido_detomaso at prodigy.net]
> Sent: 6/10/2016 6:01:07 PM
> To: guson at home.se;tipo874 at gmail.com
> Cc: MikeLDrew at aol.com;detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
>
>
> I'm lost ... the rectifier diodes, typically six, each transit roughly 1/3 of the alternators output. Collectively they transmit all the output power. Any loads added anywhere tax the diodes.
> OTOH, certain cars I'm aware of run many loads through the lamp circuit, bulb test in the example I'm familiar with, and some/many/most alternator voltage regulators can't handle the current. These require a special voltage regulator.
> Unlikely the root cause of the problem at hand ... my money is on bad regulator unfortunately inside the GM alternator not conveniently remote mounted.
> Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong.
> GD
>
>
> From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se>
> To: tipo874 at gmail.com
> Cc: MikeLDrew at aol.com; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
>
> If the marginal connection is between battery and ammeter it will
> fluctuate between zero and charge. If it's between alternator and
> ammeter it will fluctuate between charge and discharge. Right Thomas?
> Another thought: Have you by accident hooked anything up to the lamp
> post on the alternator (or the wire going between post and dashboard
> lamp) that's using significant power? That pin will provide power when
> running but the rectifier diodes inside will not be up for the task and
> burn out in short time. Just a thought as you've been going through
> alternators at high pace. I'd like to disconnect the lamp wire from the
> alternator with the engine running and see what happens. Note that the
> sense wire will have to stay connected if you have one.
>
>
>
> Tomas
> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>
> From: Thomas Toernblom [tipo874 at gmail.com]
> Sent: 3/10/2016 9:49:41 PM
> To: MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
> Check the fat wire from B+ (or what it is called on the alt) to the
> ammeter. If there is a marginal connection there the voltage can
> fluctuate wildly and possibly kill semiconductors in the alt.
> > 3 okt. 2016 kl. 18:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso
> <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>:
> >
> > All,
> >
> > Further to my original inquiry, I failed to mention that this is a GM
> alternator with built-in regulator, running in the stock three-wire
> configuration. Normally it works normally--shows a somewhat strong
> charge for a short time after engine start, coming back down to slight
> charge when battery is 'full' again, with slight discharge at idle when
> fans, lights etc are on.
> >
> > When it starts acting up, initially the needle bounces erratically
> over a small range between slight charge and slight discharge. After a
> few minutes of that, it goes into greater discharge mode as it quits
> completely.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:15, "Himes, Terry (397C)"
> <terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >>
> >> Ditto. I put in 2 rebuilt units and they both failed. Finally bought
> >> a new one.
> >> No problem since.
> >>
> >> "A Purple Heart proves you were smart enough to hatch a plan,
> >>
> >> stupid enough to try it and lucky enough to survive!"
> >>
> >> Terry W. Himes
> >>
> >> JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
> >>
> >> Dawn Spacecraft Team
> >>
> >> Rosetta Sequence Team Lead
> >>
> >> Phone: (818) 393-6261
> >>
> >> Cell: (818) 653-8213
> >>
> >> Fax: (818) 393-3147
> >>
> >> [1]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> >>
> >> From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
> behalf
> >> of Julian Kift <[3]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> >> Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:57 AM
> >> To: "[4]MikeLDrew at aol.com" <[5]MikeLDrew at aol.com>,
> >> "[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
> >> <[7]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
> >>
> >> Mike,
> >> I hate chasing these type of electrical problems, but here's some
> >> thoughts;
> >> i) Battery going bad (how old is it?), requiring the alternator to
> have
> >> to constantly charge
> >> ii) Some alternator re builders are notorious for units failing,
> over a
> >> 50% failure rate is not uncommon. I had a similar issue with my
> GT40;
> >> on the third alternator we switched to a higher amp 'new' unit and
> >> never had a problem since.
> >> iii) It could also be an intermittent short or bad ground
> >> Julian
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: DeTomaso <[8]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
> behalf
> >> of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> >> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 9:11 PM
> >> To: [10]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> Subject: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
> >> Hi guys,
> >> Just got home from a terrific weekend in the Sierra foothills; 24
> >> Panteras
> >> (of the 36 scheduled) took part in the Niello concours at Serrano.
> It
> >> heaved down with rain for a very brief period, but that rain then
> >> turned to snow
> >> which kept the large Reno/Tahoe contingent from braving the summit.
> >> Still, a great time was had by all who attended, and we drove home
> in
> >> splendid
> >> sunshine.
> >> We were driving in Lori's Pantera, which has a flat firewall kit and
> >> uses a
> >> GM alternator with built-in regulator. She drove the car to Vegas
> >> this
> >> spring, and the alternator failed while we were there. At first it
> >> started
> >> acting erratic, with the amp needle bouncing around, and then
> finally
> >> it quit
> >> and just showed a partial discharge. Testing at the battery revealed
> >> it
> >> was doing nothing at that point. We replaced it with another one,
> >> which did
> >> exactly the same thing and failed about 50 miles from home.
> >> We replaced THAT one, and the third one has worked fine until today.
> >> But
> >> it probably only has about 250 miles on it or so. On the way home,
> >> once
> >> again, I noticed the ammeter needle behaving erratically, then it
> quit
> >> and
> >> showed partial discharge for many miles, then briefly came back to
> life
> >> and
> >> showed a very strong charge (since we had been running on battery
> power
> >> for
> >> awhile), then discharged again.
> >> Methinks the problem is not simply that alternators are failing, but
> >> rather
> >> that there is some sort of fault in the electrical system. As
> >> electrons
> >> are far from my strong suit, I hesitate to start diving it to it
> >> blindly.
> >> What say all of you?
> >> FWIW we've got a spare alternator we will be installing tomorrow,
> which
> >> almost assuredly will work just fine...for awhile anyway????
> >> Mike
> >>
> >> References
> >>
> >> 1. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> >> 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 3. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
> >> 4. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
> >> 5. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
> >> 6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 7. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 8. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 9. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 10. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >> DeTomaso mailing list
> >> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >>
> >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.) use the links above.
> >>
> >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> <rebuild kit.jpg>
> <10si schematic.bmp>
-------------- next part --------------
Mike,
The alternator mounting plates come in Ford & GM alternator variants as
the mounting on the GM is much narrower, you don't by chance have a
Ford bracket with the GM one wire alternator that has not had the
correct spacers applied?
If I recall a couple of weeks ago you put me onto the IPSCO product
that relocates the alternator tensioner mounting for better tension,
having recommende dit do you have that?
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Friday, October 7, 2016 5:51 PM
To: Tomas Gunnarsson
Cc: <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
All,
Check this out. I have never bothered to look at the alternator while
the engine was running before, as it can only be seen from under the
car.
Today I put the car on the lift and had Lori start it up while I filmed
it:
[1]http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew
[2][maxresdefault.jpg]
[3]Pantera alternator shake, rattle and roll....
youtu.be
Pantera with Kirk Evans flat firewall kit and GM three-wire alternator.
After multiple failures I investigated with the engine running and
discovered violent...
Look at how violently it's shaking! You can feel it throughout the
car--the engine was smooth on the dyno but there is a vibration now.
I haven't yet explored to see WHY it's shaking so much. I wonder if the
mounting bolt that came with the kit is the wrong diameter and the
alternator is loose even when it's tight?
I can easily imagine this kind of motion being responsible for the
problems we have been having, don't you?
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 7, 2016, at 0:29, "Tomas Gunnarsson" <guson at home.se> wrote:
> The AC Delco 10si alternator has nine internal rectifier diodes, see
attached pics. The main six diode rectifier bridge is top middle. The
triple diode that powers the regulator is to the left of the ball
bearing. This triple diode is also what turns off the alternator lamp.
If you hook up a load between lamp terminal and ground this bridge will
provide power to the load, something it's not designed to do. The
result will be burnt out diodes in the diode trio and a loss of power
to the regulator which in turn leads to loss of alternator output. Like
you I think that the problem is the regulator but the question is why
it keeps breaking.
>
> Tomas
>
> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
> From: Guido deTomaso [guido_detomaso at prodigy.net]
> Sent: 6/10/2016 6:01:07 PM
> To: guson at home.se;tipo874 at gmail.com
> Cc: MikeLDrew at aol.com;detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
>
>
> I'm lost ... the rectifier diodes, typically six, each transit
roughly 1/3 of the alternators output. Collectively they transmit all
the output power. Any loads added anywhere tax the diodes.
> OTOH, certain cars I'm aware of run many loads through the lamp
circuit, bulb test in the example I'm familiar with, and some/many/most
alternator voltage regulators can't handle the current. These require
a special voltage regulator.
> Unlikely the root cause of the problem at hand ... my money is on bad
regulator unfortunately inside the GM alternator not conveniently
remote mounted.
> Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong.
> GD
>
>
> From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se>
> To: tipo874 at gmail.com
> Cc: MikeLDrew at aol.com; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 5, 2016 11:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
>
> If the marginal connection is between battery and ammeter it will
> fluctuate between zero and charge. If it's between alternator and
> ammeter it will fluctuate between charge and discharge. Right
Thomas?
> Another thought: Have you by accident hooked anything up to the
lamp
> post on the alternator (or the wire going between post and
dashboard
> lamp) that's using significant power? That pin will provide power
when
> running but the rectifier diodes inside will not be up for the task
and
> burn out in short time. Just a thought as you've been going through
> alternators at high pace. I'd like to disconnect the lamp wire from
the
> alternator with the engine running and see what happens. Note that
the
> sense wire will have to stay connected if you have one.
>
>
>
> Tomas
> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>
> From: Thomas Toernblom [tipo874 at gmail.com]
> Sent: 3/10/2016 9:49:41 PM
> To: MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
> Check the fat wire from B+ (or what it is called on the alt) to the
> ammeter. If there is a marginal connection there the voltage can
> fluctuate wildly and possibly kill semiconductors in the alt.
> > 3 okt. 2016 kl. 18:00 skrev Mike Drew via DeTomaso
> <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>:
> >
> > All,
> >
> > Further to my original inquiry, I failed to mention that this is
a GM
> alternator with built-in regulator, running in the stock three-wire
> configuration. Normally it works normally--shows a somewhat strong
> charge for a short time after engine start, coming back down to
slight
> charge when battery is 'full' again, with slight discharge at idle
when
> fans, lights etc are on.
> >
> > When it starts acting up, initially the needle bounces
erratically
> over a small range between slight charge and slight discharge.
After a
> few minutes of that, it goes into greater discharge mode as it
quits
> completely.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Oct 3, 2016, at 8:15, "Himes, Terry (397C)"
> <terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >>
> >> Ditto. I put in 2 rebuilt units and they both failed. Finally
bought
> >> a new one.
> >> No problem since.
> >>
> >> "A Purple Heart proves you were smart enough to hatch a plan,
> >>
> >> stupid enough to try it and lucky enough to survive!"
> >>
> >> Terry W. Himes
> >>
> >> JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
> >>
> >> Dawn Spacecraft Team
> >>
> >> Rosetta Sequence Team Lead
> >>
> >> Phone: (818) 393-6261
> >>
> >> Cell: (818) 653-8213
> >>
> >> Fax: (818) 393-3147
> >>
> >> [1]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> >>
> >> From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
> behalf
> >> of Julian Kift <[3]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> >> Date: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:57 AM
> >> To: "[4]MikeLDrew at aol.com" <[5]MikeLDrew at aol.com>,
> >> "[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
> >> <[7]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
> >>
> >> Mike,
> >> I hate chasing these type of electrical problems, but here's
some
> >> thoughts;
> >> i) Battery going bad (how old is it?), requiring the alternator
to
> have
> >> to constantly charge
> >> ii) Some alternator re builders are notorious for units failing,
> over a
> >> 50% failure rate is not uncommon. I had a similar issue with my
> GT40;
> >> on the third alternator we switched to a higher amp 'new' unit
and
> >> never had a problem since.
> >> iii) It could also be an intermittent short or bad ground
> >> Julian
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: DeTomaso <[8]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
> behalf
> >> of Mike Drew via DeTomaso <[9]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> >> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2016 9:11 PM
> >> To: [10]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> Subject: [DeTomaso] Alternator blues....
> >> Hi guys,
> >> Just got home from a terrific weekend in the Sierra foothills;
24
> >> Panteras
> >> (of the 36 scheduled) took part in the Niello concours at
Serrano.
> It
> >> heaved down with rain for a very brief period, but that rain
then
> >> turned to snow
> >> which kept the large Reno/Tahoe contingent from braving the
summit.
> >> Still, a great time was had by all who attended, and we drove
home
> in
> >> splendid
> >> sunshine.
> >> We were driving in Lori's Pantera, which has a flat firewall kit
and
> >> uses a
> >> GM alternator with built-in regulator. She drove the car to
Vegas
> >> this
> >> spring, and the alternator failed while we were there. At first
it
> >> started
> >> acting erratic, with the amp needle bouncing around, and then
> finally
> >> it quit
> >> and just showed a partial discharge. Testing at the battery
revealed
> >> it
> >> was doing nothing at that point. We replaced it with another
one,
> >> which did
> >> exactly the same thing and failed about 50 miles from home.
> >> We replaced THAT one, and the third one has worked fine until
today.
> >> But
> >> it probably only has about 250 miles on it or so. On the way
home,
> >> once
> >> again, I noticed the ammeter needle behaving erratically, then
it
> quit
> >> and
> >> showed partial discharge for many miles, then briefly came back
to
> life
> >> and
> >> showed a very strong charge (since we had been running on
battery
> power
> >> for
> >> awhile), then discharged again.
> >> Methinks the problem is not simply that alternators are failing,
but
> >> rather
> >> that there is some sort of fault in the electrical system. As
> >> electrons
> >> are far from my strong suit, I hesitate to start diving it to it
> >> blindly.
> >> What say all of you?
> >> FWIW we've got a spare alternator we will be installing
tomorrow,
> which
> >> almost assuredly will work just fine...for awhile anyway????
> >> Mike
> >>
> >> References
> >>
> >> 1. [4]mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> >> 2. [5]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 3. [6]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
> >> 4. [7]mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
> >> 5. [8]mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
> >> 6. [9]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 7. [10]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 8. [11]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 9. [12]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> 10. [13]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >> DeTomaso mailing list
> >> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >> [14]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >>
> >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.) use the links above.
> >>
> >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward
> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > [15]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward
> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [16]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [17]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> <rebuild kit.jpg>
> <10si schematic.bmp>
References
1. http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew
2. http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew
3. http://youtu.be/05CddX-lbew
4. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
5. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
6. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
7. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
8. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
9. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
10. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
11. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
12. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
14. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
16. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
17. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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