[DeTomaso] Pantera Racing
Motorspot Webmaster
webmaster at motorspot.com
Sun Nov 20 13:28:34 EST 2016
Team Pantera Orange County used to put-on the track events for a few
years at the Las Vegas Fun Rallye. We had drag racing and road racing
and one time, both types of racing on the same day. The attendance and
participation was decent. The track events were not considered part of
the Rallye itself and this was stated in the schedule of events that was
circulated by the Rallye organizers. Indeed, conflicting events were
scheduled at the same time as the racing events for those participants
who did not want to participate by even being a spectator. Although
Linda and I enjoy taking our cars onto a racing circuit, we wouldn't
expect those attending the Rallye to foot the bill. Taking some parade
laps at Laguna Seca is a monumental accomplishment by itself and
something very few DeTomaso owners will ever have the opportunity to do.
Only Jacob Shalit in his Candy Pantera ever competed at Laguna Seca
during the 'Historics. However, I did watch Mr. Cotter, the subsequent
owner of Candy compete in an SCCA event and did amazingly well, even
though he was grouped with the historic NASCAR class. If anybody has a
burning desire to track their car, they should do as Ed pointed out and
prepare their car for competition in the SCCA event. If a Pantera can't
meet the tech requirements of the SCCA, it probably wouldn't be a good
idea to race their car in the first place on a circuit like Laguna Seca.
I am certain that if any Pantera is allowed to compete in that weekend's
SCCA meeting, there will be plenty of Pantera enthusiasts present to
root them on! Forza! Dave and Linda
On 11/20/2016 9:00 AM, detomaso-request at server.detomasolist.com wrote:
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> Daily Detomaso List Digest
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: 2017 POCA Fun Rally (Jeff Detrich)
> 2. Re: Data for K&N filters (Julian Kift)
> 3. Re: 2017 POCA Fun Rally (Julian Kift)
> 4. Qvale Mangusta on FOX (The DeTomaso Registry Guy)
> 5. Re: 2017 POCA Fun Rally (Ed Mendez)
> 6. Re: Data for K&N filters (Charles McCall)
> 7. Re: Data for K&N filters (Daniel C Jones)
> 8. Re: Data for K&N filters (marshallgsmith)
> 9. NPC (Michael Barnes)
> 10. Re: Data for K&N filters (Roland)
> 11. Re: Data for K&N filters (Charles McCall)
> 12. Data for K&N filters (Garth Rodericks)
> 13. No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally? (Dan Courtney)
> 14. Re: No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally? (mark skwarek)
> 15. Re: Data for K&N filters (Ken Green)
> 16. Re: No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally? (Asa Jay Laughton)
> 17. Re: No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally? (Dan Courtney)
> 18. Re: No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally? (Ed Mendez)
> 19. Re: Data for K&N filters (Roland)
> 20. Re: No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally? (Jeff Detrich)
> 21. Re: 2017 POCA Fun Rally (Jeff Detrich)
> 22. Re: 2017 POCA Fun Rally (Ed Mendez)
> 23. Re: No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally? (Rich Hoppe)
> 24. Re: 2017 POCA Fun Rally (Julian Kift)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 11:09:21 -0600
> From: Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>
> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> Cc: "DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
> <DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Inland Empire California Highway
> Panteras <poca1 at aol.com>, San Diego Panteras
> <sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
> Message-ID:
> <CANX29aXn4MLN06bxFNB1S-DTGPSjCp+k9_ryxecjfuKJTzPv9A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself so
> we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those of
> us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
>
> Jeff
> 6659
>
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Dennis,
>>
>> I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom web
>> link where it will take you right to the area to register for your room
>> at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will send
>> out an email to everyone once that happens.
>>
>> Thanks Ed
>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>>
>> On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez <[1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Nice Flyer Ed!
>> This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
>> Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
>> reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
>> Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
>> Dennis
>> On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez <[2]edducati at mac.com>
>> wrote:
>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
>> 2. mailto:edducati at mac.com
>> 3. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
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>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself
> so we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for
> those of us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
> Jeff
> 6659
>
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez <[1]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>
> A A Thank you Dennis,
> A A I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a
> custom web
> A A link where it will take you right to the area to register for
> your room
> A A at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I
> will send
> A A out an email to everyone once that happens.
> A A Thanks Ed
> A A Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> A A On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez
> <[1][2]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
> A A wrote:
> A A Nice Flyer Ed!
> A A This works well for me since we won't be able to attend
> Concorso
> A A Italiano weekend next year.A Any Idea when the hotel will
> accept
> A A reservations?A Any idea what the room rates will be?
> A A Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
> A A Dennis
> A A On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez
> <[2][3]edducati at mac.com>
> A A wrote:
> A A Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> A A _______________________________________________
> A A Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> A A DeTomaso mailing list
> A A [3][4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> A A [4][5]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> A A To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.)
> A A use the links above.
> A A Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
> forward any
> A A message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
> the
> A A list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive
> A A or approve the archiving of list messages.
> References
> A A 1. mailto:[6]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> A A 2. mailto:[7]edducati at mac.com
> A A 3. mailto:[8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> A A 4. [9]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
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> [11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
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> References
>
> 1. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 2. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> 3. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 4. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 5. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 6. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> 7. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 8. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 10. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 17:13:38 +0000
> From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> To: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>, Detomaso Email List
> <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> Message-ID:
> <DM5PR18MB1323E2BDEBFF07F74D3E3E9695B30 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Charlie,
>
>
> It is almost an impossible task to find unbiased data, ask any statistician they make a living at it!
>
>
> Getting more air in the engine = more HP right? So if K&N filters are higher air flow through a coarser mesh then science says there must be a corresponding HP increase! That said I have yet to find a before and after dyno test with a stock, alternative or K&N filter that proves such, however there are many web comments attesting that the decal K&N supply is good for 5HP alone.....
>
>
> So why is there no clear evidence? Well it is probably because a stock air filter is not a restriction to getting air into the engine, car manufacturers simply don't design that way, that is unless you run NASCAR restrictor plate series! If the engine is getting enough air already (and maintaining ideal Air to Fuel Ratio) what difference does providing access to more air (at constant pressure) make? None, you can pick a nice day remove your air filter and go for a test drive and this is the ultimate unrestricted air filter.......
>
>
> But now you are not 'filtering' anything, so the K&N overcomes this with a light coating of oil on the coarse mesh to theoretically catch dust. Simple physics says there is higher probability that at least a portion of the dust will find a clear path to the intake without being impeded by the mesh or oil. However, as you can attest at least a good portion of dust remains on the outside of the filter! How much the passing dust impacts engine life is the big unknown, but assuming you had enough air getting to the engine with your stock filter anyway you are now just adding contaminants to your air/fuel mixture.
>
>
> If we also think about the dirt/dust increased inflow in specific relation to a Pantera application we know that the engine bay is a vacuum for road dirt from under the car so with higher dust loading in the air I'd expect even more dirt sees its way into the engine. In addition, comparing a stock filter assembly to aftermarket, in the latter you also typically have an exposed filter element sandwiched between an upper and lower plate with a much greater surface area exposed to that dirt than a stock style snorkel air filter would have.
>
>
> If you do find your engine is starving for air at higher rpms and you really need more volume then why not just increase the surface area of the stock style air filter? i.e. use a bigger filter. If you really want to increase HP then provide denser air i.e. colder or higher pressure. The moral of the story is throw the K&N filter away and get a blower/intercooler, but wait then you might need a high flow air filter to pass all that extra air...
>
>
> Personally I just have to drive over to CA and the elevation difference alone will give me 15% more power for the cost of a tank of gas! And yes it is very noticeable from my unbiased and highly tuned seat of the pants, relaying to my Adrenalin meter!
>
>
> Julian
>
> ________________________________
> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 7:06 AM
> To: Detomaso Email List
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>
> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people on
> the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a good
> idea. Comments received include:
>
>
>
> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
>
> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly oiled,
> it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
>
>
>
> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually gained
> by using one? Or lost?
>
>
>
> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his truck
> with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate the
> comparative engine wear between filter types?
>
>
>
> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I don't
> believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> Charlie,
>
> It is almost an impossible task to find unbiased data, ask any
> statistician they make a living at it!
>
> Getting more air in the engine = more HP right? So if K&N filters are
> higher air flow through a coarser mesh then science says there must be
> a corresponding HP increase! That said I have yet to find a before and
> after dyno test with a stock, alternative or K&N filter that proves
> such, however there are many web comments attesting that the decal K&N
> supply is good for 5HP alone.....
>
> So why is there no clear evidence? Well it is probably because a stock
> air filter is not a restriction to getting air into the engine,
> car manufacturers simply don't design that way, that is unless you run
> NASCAR restrictor plate series! If the engine is getting enough air
> already (and maintaining ideal Air to Fuel Ratio) what difference does
> providing access to more air (at constant pressure) make? None, you can
> pick a nice day remove your air filter and go for a test drive and this
> is the ultimate unrestricted air filter.......
>
> But now you are not 'filtering' anything, so the K&N overcomes this
> with a light coating of oil on the coarse mesh to theoretically catch
> dust. Simple physics says there is higher probability that at least a
> portion of the dust will find a clear path to the intake without being
> impeded by the mesh or oil. However, as you can attest at least a good
> portion of dust remains on the outside of the filter! How much
> the passing dust impacts engine life is the big unknown, but assuming
> you had enough air getting to the engine with your stock filter anyway
> you are now just adding contaminants to your air/fuel mixture.
>
> If we also think about the dirt/dust increased
> inflow in specific relation to a Pantera application we know that the
> engine bay is a vacuum for road dirt from under the car so with
> higher dust loading in the air I'd expect even more dirt sees its way
> into the engine. In addition, comparing a stock filter assembly to
> aftermarket, in the latter you also typically have an exposed filter
> element sandwiched between an upper and lower plate with a much greater
> surface area exposed to that dirt than a stock style snorkel air filter
> would have.
>
> If you do find your engine is starving for air at higher rpms and
> you really need more volume then why not just increase the surface area
> of the stock style air filter? i.e. use a bigger filter. If you
> really want to increase HP then provide denser air i.e. colder or
> higher pressure. The moral of the story is throw the K&N filter away
> and get a blower/intercooler, but wait then you might need a high flow
> air filter to pass all that extra air...
>
> Personally I just have to drive over to CA and the elevation difference
> alone will give me 15% more power for the cost of a tank of gas! And
> yes it is very noticeable from my unbiased and highly tuned seat of the
> pants, relaying to my Adrenalin meter!
>
> Julian
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
> Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 7:06 AM
> To: Detomaso Email List
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>
> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
> on
> the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
> good
> idea. Comments received include:
>
> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
> oiled,
> it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
>
> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
> gained
> by using one? Or lost?
>
> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
> truck
> with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate
> the
> comparative engine wear between filter types?
>
> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
> don't
> believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 17:15:08 +0000
> From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> To: Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> Cc: "DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
> <DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Inland Empire California Highway
> Panteras <poca1 at aol.com>, San Diego Panteras
> <sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
> Message-ID:
> <DM5PR18MB1323B8843922ECF05FBC5ED895B30 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Yeah if you could stay over until the August Monterey week when all the REAL car action happens that would be great!
>
>
> Julian
>
> ________________________________
> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:09 AM
> To: Ed Mendez
> Cc: DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Inland Empire California Highway Panteras; San Diego Panteras
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
>
> Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself so
> we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those of
> us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
>
> Jeff
> 6659
>
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Dennis,
>>
>> I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom web
>> link where it will take you right to the area to register for your room
>> at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will send
>> out an email to everyone once that happens.
>>
>> Thanks Ed
>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>>
>> On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez <[1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Nice Flyer Ed!
>> This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
>> Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
>> reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
>> Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
>> Dennis
>> On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez <[2]edducati at mac.com>
>> wrote:
>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>> use the links above.
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
>> 2. mailto:edducati at mac.com
>> 3. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
>> the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
>> the archiving of list messages.
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> Yeah if you could stay over until the August Monterey week when all the
> REAL car action happens that would be great!
>
> Julian
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
> Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:09 AM
> To: Ed Mendez
> Cc: DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Inland Empire California Highway
> Panteras; San Diego Panteras
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
>
> Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself
> so
> we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those
> of
> us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
> Jeff
> 6659
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com> wrote:
> > Thank you Dennis,
> >
> > I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom
> web
> > link where it will take you right to the area to register for your
> room
> > at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will
> send
> > out an email to everyone once that happens.
> >
> > Thanks Ed
> > Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> >
> > On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez <[1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Nice Flyer Ed!
> > This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
> > Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
> > reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
> > Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
> > Dennis
> > On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez
> <[2]edducati at mac.com>
> > wrote:
> > Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> > _______________________________________________
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.)
> > use the links above.
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> > list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive
> > or approve the archiving of list messages.
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. [1]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> > 2. [2]mailto:edducati at mac.com
> > 3. [3]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > 4. [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > [5]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use
> > the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list.
> > They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
> approve
> > the archiving of list messages.
> >
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> 2. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 3. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 5. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:41:47 -0800
> From: The DeTomaso Registry Guy <detomasoregistry at gmail.com>
> To: "DeTomaso List" <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Qvale Mangusta on FOX
> Message-ID: <5AB08D9EAB5145F88A1D0505661B23B4 at BOSS3A>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/11/18/under-30000-exotics-that-arent-terrible.html
> <http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/11/18/under-30000-exotics-tht-arent-terrible.html>
>
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
>
>
> The De Tomaso Registry Guy
>
> http://www.detomasoregistry.org/Members/ProvaMoMemMain.asp
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
>
> [1]www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/11/18/under-30000-exotics-that-arent-terri
> ble.html
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> The De Tomaso Registry Guy
>
> [2]http://www.detomasoregistry.org/Members/ProvaMoMemMain.asp
>
> References
>
> 1. http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/11/18/under-30000-exotics-tht-arent-terrible.html
> 2. http://www.detomasoregistry.org/Members/ProvaMoMemMain.asp
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 10:59:26 -0700
> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> To: Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>
> Cc: "DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
> <DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Inland Empire California Highway
> Panteras <poca1 at aol.com>, San Diego Panteras
> <sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
> Message-ID: <4AB4CEA1-A7B6-4B57-851C-8D2094DA8827 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I will talk to them on Monday but I am sure it would be no big deal I am thinking about staying there for the whole week.
>
> Ed
>
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>
>> On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:09, Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself so we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those of us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
>>
>> Jeff
>> 6659
>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>>> Thank you Dennis,
>>>
>>> I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom web
>>> link where it will take you right to the area to register for your room
>>> at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will send
>>> out an email to everyone once that happens.
>>>
>>> Thanks Ed
>>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>>>
>>> On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez <[1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Nice Flyer Ed!
>>> This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
>>> Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
>>> reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
>>> Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
>>> Dennis
>>> On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez <[2]edducati at mac.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> [3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>>> use the links above.
>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
>>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
>>> 2. mailto:edducati at mac.com
>>> 3. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>>>
>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
> -------------- next part --------------
> I will talk to them on Monday but I am sure it would be no big deal I
> am thinking about staying there for the whole week.
>
> Ed
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>
> On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:09, Jeff Detrich <[1]jjdetrich at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself
> so we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for
> those of us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
> Jeff
> 6659
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez <[2]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you Dennis,
> I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a
> custom web
> link where it will take you right to the area to register for
> your room
> at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will
> send
> out an email to everyone once that happens.
> Thanks Ed
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez
> <[1][3]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> Nice Flyer Ed!
> This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
> Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
> reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
> Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
> Dennis
> On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez
> <[2][4]edducati at mac.com>
> wrote:
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [3][5]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [4][6]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
> forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
> the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
> References
> 1. mailto:[7]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> 2. mailto:[8]edducati at mac.com
> 3. mailto:[9]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. [10]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [11]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [12]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.) use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
> the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
> 2. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 3. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> 4. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 5. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 7. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> 8. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 9. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 10. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 11. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 12. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:07:00 +0100
> From: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> To: "'marshallgsmith'" <marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net>, "'Detomaso
> Email List'" <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> Message-ID: <031e01d2428f$ba2502f0$2e6f08d0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> By unbiased, I mean that K&N has an interest in selling their filters. Is there a reputable engine builder that has done back to back dyno testing and published the results?
>
> Someone like Dan Jones, or someone else that isn?t on the payroll of a manufacturer? Some enthusiast that has done testing but isn?t sponsored by anyone?
>
>
>
> From: marshallgsmith [mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: s?bado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 17:39
> To: Charles McCall; Detomaso Email List
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>
>
>
> In reference to unbiased data, are you referring to the K & N Corporation or your fellow Pantera owners opinions?
>
>
>
> M
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Date: 11/19/16 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
> To: Detomaso Email List <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>
> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people on
> the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a good
> idea. Comments received include:
>
>
>
> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
>
> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly oiled,
> it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
>
>
>
> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually gained
> by using one? Or lost?
>
>
>
> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his truck
> with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate the
> comparative engine wear between filter types?
>
>
>
> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I don't
> believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
>
>
> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
> on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
> good idea. Comments received include:
>
>
> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
>
> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
> oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
>
>
> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
> gained by using one? Or lost?
>
>
> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
> truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
> indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
>
>
> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
> don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data... Thanks!
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> By unbiased, I mean that K&N has an interest in selling their filters.
> Is there a reputable engine builder that has done back to back dyno
> testing and published the results?
>
> Someone like Dan Jones, or someone else that isn't on the payroll of a
> manufacturer? Some enthusiast that has done testing but isn't sponsored
> by anyone?
>
>
> From: marshallgsmith [mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: sabado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 17:39
> To: Charles McCall; Detomaso Email List
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>
>
> In reference to unbiased data, are you referring to the K & N
> Corporation or your fellow Pantera owners opinions?
>
>
> M
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Charles McCall <[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Date: 11/19/16 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
> To: Detomaso Email List <[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
> on
> the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
> good
> idea. Comments received include:
> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
> oiled,
> it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
> gained
> by using one? Or lost?
> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
> truck
> with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate
> the
> comparative engine wear between filter types?
> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
> don't
> believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several
> people
> on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such
> a
> good idea. Comments received include:
> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
> oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
> gained by using one? Or lost?
> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
> truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
> indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but
> I
> don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data...
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 2. mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 12:07:35 -0600
> From: Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> Cc: Detomaso Email List <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> Message-ID:
> <CAD=EzWVyWUYNiL1hbk82cvOzJp=J8fU7O9CgYNmaoQYTSJt1Ag at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> See Chapter 2 of David Vizard's "How to Build Horsepower". Google's book
> preview shows this chapter.
>
> Dan Jones
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
>> on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
>> good idea. Comments received include:
>>
>>
>> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
>>
>> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
>> oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
>>
>>
>> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
>> gained by using one? Or lost?
>>
>>
>> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
>> truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
>> indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
>>
>>
>> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
>> don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data... Thanks!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
>> the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
>> the archiving of list messages.
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> See Chapter 2 of David Vizard's "How to Build Horsepower".A Google's
> book preview shows this chapter.
> Dan Jones
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Charles McCall
> <[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A A After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several
> people
> A A on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't
> such a
> A A good idea. Comments received include:
> A A "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
> A A "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't
> properly
> A A oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
> A A Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is
> actually
> A A gained by using one? Or lost?
> A A On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in
> his
> A A truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with
> controls to
> A A indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
> A A Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election
> campaign, but I
> A A don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data...
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [2]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [3]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.) use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
> the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 2. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 10:37:23 -0800
> From: marshallgsmith <marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net>
> To: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>, 'Detomaso Email List'
> <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> Message-ID: <x1cty9y4npadkd5gncsk1s19.1479580349206 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> I always thought that the lack of comparative Dyno testing by K & N between their filter and paper filters was pretty suspect. All we've ever had from them is the claim of 5 more horsepower and a filter that lasts a lifetime. And that if you believe that a garden hose could rinse all the dirt out of a filter that millions of cubic feet of air passes through over years of operation.
> Marshall
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Date: 11/19/16 10:07 AM (GMT-08:00)
> To: 'marshallgsmith' <marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net>, 'Detomaso Email List' <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>
> By unbiased, I mean that K&N has an interest in selling their filters. Is there a reputable engine builder that has done back to back dyno testing and published the results?Someone like Dan Jones, or someone else that isn?t on the payroll of a manufacturer? Some enthusiast that has done testing but isn?t sponsored by anyone??From: marshallgsmith [mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: s?bado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 17:39
> To: Charles McCall; Detomaso Email List
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters?In reference to unbiased data, are you referring to the K & N Corporation or your fellow Pantera owners opinions??M???Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Date: 11/19/16 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
> To: Detomaso Email List <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>
> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people on
> the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a good
> idea. Comments received include:
>
>
>
> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
>
> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly oiled,
> it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
>
>
>
> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually gained
> by using one? Or lost?
>
>
>
> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his truck
> with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate the
> comparative engine wear between filter types?
>
>
>
> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I don't
> believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
>
>
> ?? After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
> ?? on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
> ?? good idea. Comments received include:
>
>
> ?? "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
>
> ?? "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
> ?? oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
>
>
> ?? Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
> ?? gained by using one? Or lost?
>
>
> ?? On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
> ?? truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
> ?? indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
>
>
> ?? Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
> ?? don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data... Thanks!
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
> -------------- next part --------------
> I always thought that the lack of comparative Dyno testing by K & N
> between their filter and paper filters was pretty suspect. All we've
> ever had from them is the claim of 5 more horsepower and a filter that
> lasts a lifetime. And that if you believe that a garden hose could
> rinse all the dirt out of a filter that millions of cubic feet of air
> passes through over years of operation.
>
> Marshall
>
> Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Date: 11/19/16 10:07 AM (GMT-08:00)
> To: 'marshallgsmith' <marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net>, 'Detomaso Email
> List' <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>
> By unbiased, I mean that K&N has an interest in selling their filters.
> Is there a reputable engine builder that has done back to back dyno
> testing and published the results?
>
> Someone like Dan Jones, or someone else that isn't on the payroll of a
> manufacturer? Some enthusiast that has done testing but isn't sponsored
> by anyone?
>
>
> From: marshallgsmith [mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: sabado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 17:39
> To: Charles McCall; Detomaso Email List
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>
>
> In reference to unbiased data, are you referring to the K & N
> Corporation or your fellow Pantera owners opinions?
>
>
> M
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Charles McCall <[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Date: 11/19/16 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
> To: Detomaso Email List <[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
> on
> the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
> good
> idea. Comments received include:
> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
> oiled,
> it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
> gained
> by using one? Or lost?
> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
> truck
> with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate
> the
> comparative engine wear between filter types?
> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
> don't
> believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several
> people
> on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such
> a
> good idea. Comments received include:
> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
> oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
> gained by using one? Or lost?
> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
> truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
> indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but
> I
> don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data...
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 2. mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 18:48:44 +0000
> From: Michael Barnes <michaelbarnessrt10 at hotmail.co.uk>
> To: "detomaso at detomasolist.com" <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] NPC
> Message-ID:
> <LOXP123MB0072B0179CBA2585D9FB051D88B30 at LOXP123MB0072.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hello chaps,
> Thought I'd share one of the upgrades I've been carrying out in my Mopar garage,hope you like it
>
> Michael
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:17:34 +0000
> From: Roland <willibillie at live.de>
> To: "detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
> <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> Message-ID:
> <VI1PR0101MB1758744BD5490FC3D5E0D262B3B30 at VI1PR0101MB1758.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> This might help:
>
> https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
>
> Am 19.11.2016 um 19:07 schrieb Charles McCall:
>
> By unbiased, I mean that K&N has an interest in selling their filters.
> Is there a reputable engine builder that has done back to back dyno
> testing and published the results?
>
> Someone like Dan Jones, or someone else that isn't on the payroll of a
> manufacturer? Some enthusiast that has done testing but isn't sponsored
> by anyone?
>
>
> From: marshallgsmith [mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: sabado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 17:39
> To: Charles McCall; Detomaso Email List
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>
>
> In reference to unbiased data, are you referring to the K & N
> Corporation or your fellow Pantera owners opinions?
>
>
> M
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Charles McCall <[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com><mailto:[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Date: 11/19/16 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
> To: Detomaso Email List <[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com><mailto:[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
> on
> the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
> good
> idea. Comments received include:
> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
> oiled,
> it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
> gained
> by using one? Or lost?
> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
> truck
> with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate
> the
> comparative engine wear between filter types?
> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
> don't
> believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several
> people
> on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such
> a
> good idea. Comments received include:
> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
> oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
> gained by using one? Or lost?
> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
> truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
> indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but
> I
> don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data...
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 2. mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> This might help:
>
> [1]https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
>
> Am 19.11.2016 um 19:07 schrieb Charles McCall:
>
> By unbiased, I mean that K&N has an interest in selling their filters.
> Is there a reputable engine builder that has done back to back dyno
> testing and published the results?
>
> Someone like Dan Jones, or someone else that isn't on the payroll of a
> manufacturer? Some enthusiast that has done testing but isn't sponsored
> by anyone?
>
>
> From: marshallgsmith [[2]mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: sabado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 17:39
> To: Charles McCall; Detomaso Email List
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>
>
> In reference to unbiased data, are you referring to the K & N
> Corporation or your fellow Pantera owners opinions?
>
>
> M
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Charles McCall [3]<[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Date: 11/19/16 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
> To: Detomaso Email List [4]<[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
> on
> the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
> good
> idea. Comments received include:
> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
> oiled,
> it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
> gained
> by using one? Or lost?
> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
> truck
> with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate
> the
> comparative engine wear between filter types?
> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
> don't
> believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several
> people
> on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such
> a
> good idea. Comments received include:
> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
> oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
> gained by using one? Or lost?
> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
> truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
> indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but
> I
> don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data...
> Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [[5]3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [4][6]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. [7]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 2. [8]mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
> 3. [9]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. [10]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [11]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [12]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the li
> nks above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message p
> osted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant
> the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of lis
> t messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
> 2. mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net
> 3. mailto:[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 4. mailto:[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com
> 5. mailto:3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 7. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 8. mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
> 9. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 10. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 11. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 12. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 20:19:12 +0100
> From: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> To: "'Daniel C Jones'" <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> Cc: 'Detomaso Email List' <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> Message-ID: <03a501d24299$d0430b90$70c922b0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Thanks, Dan. Very interesting reading!
>
> May be found here:
> https://books.google.es/books?id=OAw1GDB0kN0C&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage&q&f=false
>
> Basically says that K&N works, it flows nearly double the best of the paper filters. Even a dirty K&N flows more than a new paper filter.
>
> Also says that cold air is hugely important to dyno numbers and 1/4 mile times.. Worth a few minutes reading
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf Of Daniel C Jones
> Sent: s?bado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 19:08
> Cc: Detomaso Email List
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>
> See Chapter 2 of David Vizard's "How to Build Horsepower". Google's book
> preview shows this chapter.
>
> Dan Jones
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
>> on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
>> good idea. Comments received include:
>>
>>
>> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
>>
>> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
>> oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
>>
>>
>> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
>> gained by using one? Or lost?
>>
>>
>> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
>> truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
>> indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
>>
>>
>> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
>> don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data... Thanks!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
>> the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
>> the archiving of list messages.
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 20:50:35 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Garth Rodericks <garth_rodericks at yahoo.com>
> To: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> Message-ID: <743741959.344191.1479588635160 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Years ago I recall reading a magazine dyno test (Hot Rod? Car Craft? or one of those) of a typical round K&N filter against a comparable paper filter, but I can't find it online. ?I recall they found the K&N didn't provide any additional horsepower against a stock filter when new, however after a limited time/miles (simulated by adding dust to the filters on the dyno) they found the K&N provided a horsepower increase over the paper filters as their flow capacity was greatly reduced pretty quickly as they began to collect dirt. But, they also provided more protection for your engine! ?Again, this is just from memory, and I have no interest in promoting K&N. I do have a K&N filter on my Pantera and have thought about just stocking up on inexpensive paper filters and changing them more regularly as the K&N it seems to get dirty quite quickly and it's a PITA to clean.
>
> Here are some other resources:http://www.knfilters.com/filter_facts.htm?- Yes, this is K&N's website, but there are some links to other resources (which are favorable toward K&N of course)
>
> https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm?- Bob is the oil guy filter test results - a good read.
>
>
> I couldn't find any other resources online worth reading other than Dan's post from David Vizard's book "How to Build Horsepower" (Thanks for the link Julian).https://books.google.es/books?id=OAw1GDB0kN0C&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage&q&f=false
>
> Everything else online is just miscellaneous drivel on other car forums with people arguing back and forth.
>
> Cheers!
> Garth
> #4033
> -------------- next part --------------
> Years ago I recall reading a magazine dyno test (Hot Rod? Car Craft? or
> one of those) of a typical round K&N filter against a comparable paper
> filter, but I can't find it online. I recall they found the K&N didn't
> provide any additional horsepower against a stock filter when new,
> however after a limited time/miles (simulated by adding dust to the
> filters on the dyno) they found the K&N provided a horsepower increase
> over the paper filters as their flow capacity was greatly reduced
> pretty quickly as they began to collect dirt. But, they also provided
> more protection for your engine! Again, this is just from memory, and
> I have no interest in promoting K&N. I do have a K&N filter on my
> Pantera and have thought about just stocking up on inexpensive paper
> filters and changing them more regularly as the K&N it seems to get
> dirty quite quickly and it's a PITA to clean.
> Here are some other resources:
> [1]http://www.knfilters.com/filter_facts.htm - Yes, this is K&N's
> website, but there are some links to other resources (which are
> favorable toward K&N of course)
> [2]https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm - Bob is the
> oil guy filter test results - a good read.
> I couldn't find any other resources online worth reading other than
> Dan's post from David Vizard's book "How to Build Horsepower" (Thanks
> for the link Julian).
> [3]https://books.google.es/books?id=OAw1GDB0kN0C&printsec=frontcover&hl
> =es#v=onepage&q&f=false
> Everything else online is just miscellaneous drivel on other car forums
> with people arguing back and forth.
> Cheers!
> Garth
> #4033
>
> References
>
> 1. http://www.knfilters.com/filter_facts.htm
> 2. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
> 3. https://books.google.es/books?id=OAw1GDB0kN0C&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage&q&f=false
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 13:49:21 -0800
> From: "Dan Courtney" <dan at excaliburre.com>
> To: <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
> Message-ID: <3331D43CCABC45BA83170DEC9AE9C749 at HPLaptop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but that?s primarily because of the ability to race on a world class track.
> I?m really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and alienating the racers in the Club.
> Two years in a row without a track event? What?s the point in having a Pantera track car if you can?t compete against other Panteras?
> Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a race car for a 1,000 mile trip.
> I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now it?s looking like the Club doesn?t care about it?s racing contingency, or about the Pantera racing tradition.
> As of this moment I?d say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior, out.
> Maybe I?ll get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
>
> Dan Courtney
> -------------- next part --------------
> Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
> because of the ability to race on a world class track.
> Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
> alienating the racers in the Club.
> Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having a
> Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
> Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a race
> car for a 1,000 mile trip.
> I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
> the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
> Pantera racing tradition.
> As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
> out.
> Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
> feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
> priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
>
> Dan Courtney
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:21:52 +0000 (UTC)
> From: mark skwarek <ehpantera at yahoo.com>
> To: Dan Courtney <dan at excaliburre.com>,
> "detomaso at server.detomasolist.com" <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
> Message-ID: <298645879.384547.1479594112153 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dan,
> How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a?parade lap.
> Mark
>
> On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney <dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
>
>
> ? Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
> ? because of the ability to race on a world class track.
> ? Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
> ? alienating the racers in the Club.
> ? Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having a
> ? Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
> ? Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a race
> ? car for a 1,000 mile trip.
> ? I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
> ? the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
> ? Pantera racing tradition.
> ? As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
> ? out.
> ? Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
> ? feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
> ? priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
>
> ? Dan Courtney
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> Dan,
> How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a parade lap.
> Mark
> On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney
> <dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
> Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
> because of the ability to race on a world class track.
> Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
> alienating the racers in the Club.
> Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having
> a
> Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
> Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
> race
> car for a 1,000 mile trip.
> I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
> the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
> Pantera racing tradition.
> As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
> out.
> Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
> feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
> priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
> Dan Courtney
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [1]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 23:00:24 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> To: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>, Charles McCall
> <charlesmccall at gmail.com>, Detomaso Email List
> <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> Message-ID: <855018109.370005.1479596424548 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> You probably have to factor in? your maintenance habits.? If you buy a new paper filter once a month versus cleaning a K&N filter once a year you may get one result.? If you buy a new paper filter once a year versus cleaning a K&N filter once a year you may get?another result.?
>
> From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> To: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>; Detomaso Email List <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>
> ? Charlie,
>
> ? It is almost an impossible task to find unbiased data, ask any
> ? statistician they make a living at it!
>
> ? Getting more air in the engine = more HP right? So if K&N filters are
> ? higher air flow through a coarser mesh then science says there must be
> ? a corresponding HP increase!? That said I have yet to find a before and
> ? after dyno test with a stock, alternative or K&N filter that proves
> ? such, however there are many web comments? attesting that the decal K&N
> ? supply is good for 5HP alone.....
>
> ? So why is there no clear evidence? Well it is probably because a stock
> ? air filter is not a restriction to getting air into the engine,
> ? car manufacturers simply don't design that way, that is unless you run
> ? NASCAR restrictor plate series! If the engine is getting enough air
> ? already (and maintaining ideal Air to Fuel Ratio) what difference does
> ? providing access to more air (at constant pressure) make? None, you can
> ? pick a nice day remove your air filter and go for a test drive and this
> ? is the ultimate unrestricted air filter.......
>
> ? But now you are not 'filtering' anything, so the K&N overcomes this
> ? with a light coating of oil on the coarse mesh to theoretically catch
> ? dust. Simple physics says there is higher probability that at least a
> ? portion of the dust will find a clear path to the intake without being
> ? impeded by the mesh or oil. However, as you can attest at least a good
> ? portion of dust remains on the outside of the filter! How much
> ? the passing dust impacts engine life is the big unknown, but assuming
> ? you had enough air getting to the engine with your stock filter anyway
> ? you are now just adding contaminants to your air/fuel mixture.
>
> ? If we also think about the dirt/dust increased
> ? inflow in specific relation to a Pantera application we know that the
> ? engine bay is a vacuum for road dirt from under the car so with
> ? higher dust loading in the air I'd expect even more dirt sees its way
> ? into the engine. In addition, comparing a stock filter assembly to
> ? aftermarket, in the latter you also typically have an exposed filter
> ? element sandwiched between an upper and lower plate with a much greater
> ? surface area exposed to that dirt than a stock style snorkel air filter
> ? would have.
>
> ? If you do find your engine is starving for air at higher rpms and
> ? you really need more volume then why not just increase the surface area
> ? of the stock style air filter? i.e. use a bigger filter. If you
> ? really want to increase HP then provide denser air i.e. colder or
> ? higher pressure. The moral of the story is throw the K&N filter away
> ? and get a blower/intercooler, but wait then you might need a high flow
> ? air filter to pass all that extra air...
>
> ? Personally I just have to drive over to CA and the elevation difference
> ? alone will give me 15% more power for the cost of a tank of gas! And
> ? yes it is very noticeable from my unbiased and highly tuned seat of the
> ? pants, relaying to my Adrenalin meter!
>
> ? Julian
> ? ? __________________________________________________________________
>
> ? From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
> ? Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> ? Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 7:06 AM
> ? To: Detomaso Email List
> ? Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>
> ? After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
> ? on
> ? the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
> ? good
> ? idea. Comments received include:
>
> ? "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
> ? "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
> ? oiled,
> ? it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
>
> ? Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
> ? gained
> ? by using one? Or lost?
>
> ? On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
> ? truck
> ? with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate
> ? the
> ? comparative engine wear between filter types?
>
> ? Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
> ? don't
> ? believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> You probably have to factor in your maintenance habits. If you buy a
> new paper filter once a month versus cleaning a K&N filter once a year
> you may get one result. If you buy a new paper filter once a year
> versus cleaning a K&N filter once a year you may get another result.
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> To: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>; Detomaso Email List
> <detomaso at detomasolist.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> Charlie,
> It is almost an impossible task to find unbiased data, ask any
> statistician they make a living at it!
> Getting more air in the engine = more HP right? So if K&N filters are
> higher air flow through a coarser mesh then science says there must
> be
> a corresponding HP increase! That said I have yet to find a before
> and
> after dyno test with a stock, alternative or K&N filter that proves
> such, however there are many web comments attesting that the decal
> K&N
> supply is good for 5HP alone.....
> So why is there no clear evidence? Well it is probably because a
> stock
> air filter is not a restriction to getting air into the engine,
> car manufacturers simply don't design that way, that is unless you
> run
> NASCAR restrictor plate series! If the engine is getting enough air
> already (and maintaining ideal Air to Fuel Ratio) what difference
> does
> providing access to more air (at constant pressure) make? None, you
> can
> pick a nice day remove your air filter and go for a test drive and
> this
> is the ultimate unrestricted air filter.......
> But now you are not 'filtering' anything, so the K&N overcomes this
> with a light coating of oil on the coarse mesh to theoretically catch
> dust. Simple physics says there is higher probability that at least a
> portion of the dust will find a clear path to the intake without
> being
> impeded by the mesh or oil. However, as you can attest at least a
> good
> portion of dust remains on the outside of the filter! How much
> the passing dust impacts engine life is the big unknown, but assuming
> you had enough air getting to the engine with your stock filter
> anyway
> you are now just adding contaminants to your air/fuel mixture.
> If we also think about the dirt/dust increased
> inflow in specific relation to a Pantera application we know that the
> engine bay is a vacuum for road dirt from under the car so with
> higher dust loading in the air I'd expect even more dirt sees its way
> into the engine. In addition, comparing a stock filter assembly to
> aftermarket, in the latter you also typically have an exposed filter
> element sandwiched between an upper and lower plate with a much
> greater
> surface area exposed to that dirt than a stock style snorkel air
> filter
> would have.
> If you do find your engine is starving for air at higher rpms and
> you really need more volume then why not just increase the surface
> area
> of the stock style air filter? i.e. use a bigger filter. If you
> really want to increase HP then provide denser air i.e. colder or
> higher pressure. The moral of the story is throw the K&N filter away
> and get a blower/intercooler, but wait then you might need a high
> flow
> air filter to pass all that extra air...
> Personally I just have to drive over to CA and the elevation
> difference
> alone will give me 15% more power for the cost of a tank of gas! And
> yes it is very noticeable from my unbiased and highly tuned seat of
> the
> pants, relaying to my Adrenalin meter!
> Julian
> __________________________________________________________________
> From: DeTomaso <[1]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
> behalf of
> Charles McCall <[2]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 7:06 AM
> To: Detomaso Email List
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several
> people
> on
> the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
> good
> idea. Comments received include:
> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
> oiled,
> it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
> gained
> by using one? Or lost?
> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
> truck
> with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
> indicate
> the
> comparative engine wear between filter types?
> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but
> I
> don't
> believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [webicon_gray.png]
> [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 2. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 3. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 15:12:10 -0800
> From: Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>
> To: Mark Skwarek <ehpantera at yahoo.com>
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com, Dan Courtney
> <dan at excaliburre.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
> Message-ID: <1w4ouinrb0gn7clrvbq953ik.1479596467945 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dan's been there and done that and we'd like to see him do it again in the 150 class. What he forgets is that POCA doesn't do the track event. It used to be PCNC for years and it just happened to be convenient that a track was nearby and something could be set up. That's become more and more difficult not to mention very expensive. Most the other Pantera owners/racers don't typically complain about it, they just don't come if their primary focus is racing.
>
> I think it would be great to have a track event, but I'm not going to complain after seeing all the trouble it's taken people over the last few years. The Fun Rally was first and foremost an event for owners to get together and socialize, not race. The track event came along later and could draw more owners, but in reality, some of them didn't attend the Fun Rally anyway, they just raced.
>
> I think it's great Ed has done as much as he has, and its apparent he's still working on some things. If owners would like to race, I'm sure an experienced person might step up and help. I can think of at least two people who could help (me not being one of them) who have done so in the past.
>
>
> Asa
>
> Sent using Jedi Mind Tricks
>
> mark skwarek via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
>> Dan,
>> How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a?parade lap.
>> Mark
>>
>> On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney <dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> ? Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
>> ? because of the ability to race on a world class track.
>> ? Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
>> ? alienating the racers in the Club.
>> ? Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having a
>> ? Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
>> ? Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a race
>> ? car for a 1,000 mile trip.
>> ? I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
>> ? the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
>> ? Pantera racing tradition.
>> ? As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
>> ? out.
>> ? Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
>> ? feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
>> ? priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
>>
>> ? Dan Courtney
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>
>>
>> Dan,
>> How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a parade lap.
>> Mark
>> On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney
>> <dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
>> Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
>> because of the ability to race on a world class track.
>> Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
>> alienating the racers in the Club.
>> Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having
>> a
>> Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
>> Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
>> race
>> car for a 1,000 mile trip.
>> I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
>> the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
>> Pantera racing tradition.
>> As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
>> out.
>> Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
>> feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
>> priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
>> Dan Courtney
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [1]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> [2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>> use the links above.
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
> -------------- next part --------------
> Dan's been there and done that and we'd like to see him do it again in
> the 150 class. What he forgets is that POCA doesn't do the track
> event. It used to be PCNC for years and it just happened to be
> convenient that a track was nearby and something could be set up.
> That's become more and more difficult not to mention very expensive.
> Most the other Pantera owners/racers don't typically complain about it,
> they just don't come if their primary focus is racing.
> I think it would be great to have a track event, but I'm not going to
> complain after seeing all the trouble it's taken people over the last
> few years. The Fun Rally was first and foremost an event for owners to
> get together and socialize, not race. The track event came along later
> and could draw more owners, but in reality, some of them didn't attend
> the Fun Rally anyway, they just raced.
> I think it's great Ed has done as much as he has, and its apparent he's
> still working on some things. If owners would like to race, I'm sure
> an experienced person might step up and help. I can think of at least
> two people who could help (me not being one of them) who have done so
> in the past.
> Asa
> Sent using Jedi Mind Tricks
>
> mark skwarek via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> Dan,
> How about coming out to Silver State. Better than aA parade lap.
> Mark
> On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney
> <dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
> A Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
> A because of the ability to race on a world class track.
> A Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
> A alienating the racers in the Club.
> A Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having
> a
> A Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
> A Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
> race
> A car for a 1,000 mile trip.
> A I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking
> like
> A the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
> A Pantera racing tradition.
> A As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged
> Warrior,
> A out.
> A Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
> A feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
> A priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
> A Dan Courtney
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> Dan,
> How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a parade lap.
> Mark
> On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney
> <dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
> Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas
> primarily
> because of the ability to race on a world class track.
> Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring
> and
> alienating the racers in the Club.
> Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in
> having
> a
> Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
> Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
> race
> car for a 1,000 mile trip.
> I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking
> like
> the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
> Pantera racing tradition.
> As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged
> Warrior,
> out.
> Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I
> strongly
> feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
> priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
> Dan Courtney
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [1]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
> References
> 1. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 15:27:34 -0800
> From: "Dan Courtney" <dan at excaliburre.com>
> To: "Asa Jay Laughton" <asajay at asajay.com>, "Mark Skwarek"
> <ehpantera at yahoo.com>
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
> Message-ID: <79190697B4AF4A7EAD0EB00189580E20 at HPLaptop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I don?t know what constraints were encountered in this year?s site selection but I really think securing a site with an available road track should be a prerequisite.
> The racing was, in my opinion and experience, one, if not the highlight of the Fun Rally and motivated me to build a Pantera track car.
> Bench and internet racing is fine, but the Club needs to get back to the real action.
> The racing is great for the vendors and for all of us who put so much time, effort and energy into making these ancient cars go faster and faster.
>
> As for Silver State, after five of those, including the 145 mph bracket my next class would be Super Sport.
> I?m not a fan of GPS ?racing?, so I?m only really interested in the Unlimited bracket. I wonder if mAD dAWG?S offer to pay my registration still stands?
>
> DanTomaso Courtney
>
> From: Asa Jay Laughton
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 3:12 PM
> To: Mark Skwarek
> Cc: Dan Courtney ; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
>
> Dan's been there and done that and we'd like to see him do it again in the 150 class. What he forgets is that POCA doesn't do the track event. It used to be PCNC for years and it just happened to be convenient that a track was nearby and something could be set up. That's become more and more difficult not to mention very expensive. Most the other Pantera owners/racers don't typically complain about it, they just don't come if their primary focus is racing.
>
> I think it would be great to have a track event, but I'm not going to complain after seeing all the trouble it's taken people over the last few years. The Fun Rally was first and foremost an event for owners to get together and socialize, not race. The track event came along later and could draw more owners, but in reality, some of them didn't attend the Fun Rally anyway, they just raced.
>
> I think it's great Ed has done as much as he has, and its apparent he's still working on some things. If owners would like to race, I'm sure an experienced person might step up and help. I can think of at least two people who could help (me not being one of them) who have done so in the past.
>
>
> Asa
>
> Sent using Jedi Mind Tricks
>
>
> mark skwarek via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
> Dan,
> How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a parade lap.
> Mark
>
> On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney <dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
> because of the ability to race on a world class track.
> Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
> alienating the racers in the Club.
> Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having a
> Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
> Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a race
> car for a 1,000 mile trip.
> I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
> the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
> Pantera racing tradition.
> As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
> out.
> Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
> feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
> priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
>
> Dan Courtney
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
>
> Dan,
> How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a parade lap.
> Mark
> On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney
> <dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
> Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
> because of the ability to race on a world class track.
> Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
> alienating the racers in the Club.
> Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having
> a
> Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
> Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
> race
> car for a 1,000 mile trip.
> I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
> the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
> Pantera racing tradition.
> As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
> out.
> Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
> feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
> priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
> Dan Courtney
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [1]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
> -------------- next part --------------
> I donat know what constraints were encountered in this yearas site
> selection but I really think securing a site with an available road
> track should be a prerequisite.
> The racing was, in my opinion and experience, one, if not the highlight
> of the Fun Rally and motivated me to build a Pantera track car.
> Bench and internet racing is fine, but the Club needs to get back to
> the real action.
> The racing is great for the vendors and for all of us who put so much
> time, effort and energy into making these ancient cars go faster and
> faster.
>
> As for Silver State, after five of those, including the 145 mph bracket
> my next class would be Super Sport.
> Iam not a fan of GPS aracinga, so Iam only really interested in the
> Unlimited bracket. I wonder if mAD dAWGaS offer to pay my registration
> still stands?
>
> DanTomaso Courtney
>
> From: Asa Jay Laughton
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 3:12 PM
> To: Mark Skwarek
> Cc: Dan Courtney ; detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
>
> Dan's been there and done that and we'd like to see him do it again in
> the 150 class. What he forgets is that POCA doesn't do the track
> event. It used to be PCNC for years and it just happened to be
> convenient that a track was nearby and something could be set up.
> That's become more and more difficult not to mention very expensive.
> Most the other Pantera owners/racers don't typically complain about it,
> they just don't come if their primary focus is racing.
>
> I think it would be great to have a track event, but I'm not going to
> complain after seeing all the trouble it's taken people over the last
> few years. The Fun Rally was first and foremost an event for owners to
> get together and socialize, not race. The track event came along later
> and could draw more owners, but in reality, some of them didn't attend
> the Fun Rally anyway, they just raced.
>
> I think it's great Ed has done as much as he has, and its apparent he's
> still working on some things. If owners would like to race, I'm sure
> an experienced person might step up and help. I can think of at least
> two people who could help (me not being one of them) who have done so
> in the past.
>
>
> Asa
>
> Sent using Jedi Mind Tricks
> mark skwarek via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> Dan,
> How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a parade lap.
> Mark
> On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney
> <dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
> Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
> because of the ability to race on a world class track.
> Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
> alienating the racers in the Club.
> Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having
> a
> Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
> Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
> race
> car for a 1,000 mile trip.
> I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
> the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
> Pantera racing tradition.
> As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
> out.
> Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
> feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
> priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
> Dan Courtney
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> Dan,
> How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a parade lap.
> Mark
> On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney
> <dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
> Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas
> primarily
> because of the ability to race on a world class track.
> Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring
> and
> alienating the racers in the Club.
> Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in
> having
> a
> Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
> Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
> race
> car for a 1,000 mile trip.
> I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking
> like
> the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
> Pantera racing tradition.
> As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged
> Warrior,
> out.
> Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I
> strongly
> feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
> priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
> Dan Courtney
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [1]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
> References
> 1. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 16:55:27 -0700
> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> To: Dan Courtney <dan at excaliburre.com>
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
> Message-ID: <90EA64B4-A702-407D-AF01-8CACB457E12D at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> You can race, but you'll have to get with the SCCA in order to join their event that same weekend. SCCA race licensing and compliance. Its financially infeasible and not prudent for the majority of membership to subsidize a track event benefiting a very small portion of the membership. Track costs and insurance makes it cost prohibitive. Individual racers can get with the SCCA and race that weekend.
>
> This will be a great event not to be missed.
>
> Ed
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>
>> On Nov 19, 2016, at 14:49, Dan Courtney <dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
>> because of the ability to race on a world class track.
>> Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
>> alienating the racers in the Club.
>> Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having a
>> Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
>> Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a race
>> car for a 1,000 mile trip.
>> I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
>> the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
>> Pantera racing tradition.
>> As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
>> out.
>> Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
>> feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
>> priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
>>
>> Dan Courtney
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 09:51:37 +0000
> From: Roland <willibillie at live.de>
> To: "detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
> <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
> Message-ID:
> <VI1PR0101MB1758BCF4E9CEAC50CD917A74B3B20 at VI1PR0101MB1758.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> It doesn't say anything about how much it filters. No filter will also
> flow way more, but what is the sense of a filter?? If your paper filter
> is big enough for your car, what sense does it make to have more air flow?
>
> Keep the K&N and make your engine builder happy !
>
>
>
> Am 19.11.2016 um 20:19 schrieb Charles McCall:
>> Thanks, Dan. Very interesting reading!
>>
>> May be found here:
>> https://books.google.es/books?id=OAw1GDB0kN0C&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage&q&f=false
>>
>> Basically says that K&N works, it flows nearly double the best of the paper filters. Even a dirty K&N flows more than a new paper filter.
>>
>> Also says that cold air is hugely important to dyno numbers and 1/4 mile times.. Worth a few minutes reading
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf Of Daniel C Jones
>> Sent: s?bado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 19:08
>> Cc: Detomaso Email List
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
>>
>> See Chapter 2 of David Vizard's "How to Build Horsepower". Google's book
>> preview shows this chapter.
>>
>> Dan Jones
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
>>> on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
>>> good idea. Comments received include:
>>>
>>>
>>> "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
>>>
>>> "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
>>> oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
>>>
>>>
>>> Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
>>> gained by using one? Or lost?
>>>
>>>
>>> On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
>>> truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
>>> indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
>>> don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data... Thanks!
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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>>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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>>>
>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
>>> the links above.
>>>
>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
>>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
>>> the archiving of list messages.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 06:01:09 -0600
> From: Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>
> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com, Dan Courtney
> <dan at excaliburre.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
> Message-ID:
> <CANX29aV6MwmUfhxewupcT6uhYjMTONVNSrGo90oSK3fL+iF67Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> The racing event was also important for a number of members who went and
> watched the racing and enjoyed walking the pit area. The Lone Star Fun
> Rally was a good example of coordinating the fun rally dates with a track
> event run by a third party with less onerous requirements than getting an
> SCCA license.
>
> Jeff
> 6559
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> You can race, but you'll have to get with the SCCA in order to join their
>> event that same weekend. SCCA race licensing and compliance. Its
>> financially infeasible and not prudent for the majority of membership to
>> subsidize a track event benefiting a very small portion of the membership.
>> Track costs and insurance makes it cost prohibitive. Individual racers can
>> get with the SCCA and race that weekend.
>>
>> This will be a great event not to be missed.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>>
>>> On Nov 19, 2016, at 14:49, Dan Courtney <dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
>>> because of the ability to race on a world class track.
>>> Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
>>> alienating the racers in the Club.
>>> Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having a
>>> Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
>>> Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a race
>>> car for a 1,000 mile trip.
>>> I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
>>> the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
>>> Pantera racing tradition.
>>> As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
>>> out.
>>> Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
>>> feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
>>> priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
>>>
>>> Dan Courtney
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>> use the links above.
>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
>> the archiving of list messages.
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
>> the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
>> the archiving of list messages.
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> The racing event was also important for a number of members who went
> and watched the racing and enjoyed walking the pit area. The Lone Star
> FunA
> Rally was a good example of coordinating the fun rally dates with a
> track event run by a third party with less onerous requirements than
> getting an SCCA license.
> Jeff
> 6559
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Ed Mendez <[1]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>
> You can race, but you'll have to get with the SCCA in order to join
> their event that same weekend. SCCA race licensing and compliance.
> Its financially infeasible and not prudent for the majority of
> membership to subsidize a track event benefiting a very small
> portion of the membership. Track costs and insurance makes it cost
> prohibitive. Individual racers can get with the SCCA and race that
> weekend.
> This will be a great event not to be missed.
> Ed
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>
> > On Nov 19, 2016, at 14:49, Dan Courtney <[2]dan at excaliburre.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >A A Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas
> primarily
> >A A because of the ability to race on a world class track.
> >A A Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring
> and
> >A A alienating the racers in the Club.
> >A A Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in
> having a
> >A A Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
> >A A Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
> race
> >A A car for a 1,000 mile trip.
> >A A I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking
> like
> >A A the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
> >A A Pantera racing tradition.
> >A A As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged
> Warrior,
> >A A out.
> >A A Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I
> strongly
> >A A feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
> >A A priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
> >
> >A A Dan Courtney
>
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [5]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [6]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 2. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
> 3. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 5. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 06:04:11 -0600
> From: Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>
> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> Cc: "DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
> <DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Inland Empire California Highway
> Panteras <poca1 at aol.com>, San Diego Panteras
> <sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
> Message-ID:
> <CANX29aW7i2Bm=aCk_KxOH7C8Fp_QOHh15KydwqsDs0=YOu9gaw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I would do the same. It would be a shame not to after coming all that way.
>
> Jeff - from the hinterlands
> 6559
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> I will talk to them on Monday but I am sure it would be no big deal I am
>> thinking about staying there for the whole week.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>>
>> On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:09, Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself so
>> we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those of
>> us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
>>
>> Jeff
>> 6659
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Dennis,
>>>
>>> I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom web
>>> link where it will take you right to the area to register for your room
>>> at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will send
>>> out an email to everyone once that happens.
>>>
>>> Thanks Ed
>>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>>>
>>> On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez <[1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Nice Flyer Ed!
>>> This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
>>> Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
>>> reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
>>> Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
>>> Dennis
>>> On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez <[2]edducati at mac.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> [3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>>> use the links above.
>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
>>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
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>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
>>> 2. mailto:edducati at mac.com
>>> 3. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
>>> the links above.
>>>
>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
>>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
>>> the archiving of list messages.
>>>
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> I would do the same. It would be a shame not to after coming all that
> way.
> Jeff - from the hinterlands
> 6559
>
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Ed Mendez <[1]edducati at mac.com>
> wrote:
>
> I will talk to them on Monday but I am sure it would be no big deal I
> am thinking about staying there for the whole week.A
> Ed
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:09, Jeff Detrich <[2]jjdetrich at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself
> so we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for
> those of us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
> Jeff
> 6659
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez <[3]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>
> A A Thank you Dennis,
> A A I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a
> custom web
> A A link where it will take you right to the area to register for
> your room
> A A at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I
> will send
> A A out an email to everyone once that happens.
> A A Thanks Ed
> A A Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> A A On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez
> <[1][4]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
> A A wrote:
> A A Nice Flyer Ed!
> A A This works well for me since we won't be able to attend
> Concorso
> A A Italiano weekend next year.A Any Idea when the hotel will
> accept
> A A reservations?A Any idea what the room rates will be?
> A A Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
> A A Dennis
> A A On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez
> <[2][5]edducati at mac.com>
> A A wrote:
> A A Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> A A _______________________________________________
> A A Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> A A DeTomaso mailing list
> A A [3][6]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> A A [4][7]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> A A To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.)
> A A use the links above.
> A A Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
> forward any
> A A message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
> the
> A A list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive
> A A or approve the archiving of list messages.
> References
> A A 1. mailto:[8]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> A A 2. mailto:[9]edducati at mac.com
> A A 3. mailto:[10]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> A A 4. [11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [12]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.) use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
> the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 2. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
> 3. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 4. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> 5. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 6. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 7. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 8. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> 9. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 10. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 09:13:34 -0700
> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> To: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> Cc: "DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
> <DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Inland Empire California Highway
> Panteras <poca1 at aol.com>, San Diego Panteras
> <sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
> Message-ID: <C3B905C5-08BF-4D64-B803-6B3D0E8B00CB at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> This hotel is $899 per night with a minimum of a 4 night stay during Monterey car week in August. That is $3600 just for the hotel.
>
> Laguna Seca is by invitation only during car week as well. The cost is astronomical.
>
> I have gotten the parade laps at Laguna Seca for our event at no cost.
>
> Ed
>
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>
>> On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:15, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah if you could stay over until the August Monterey week when all the REAL car action happens that would be great!
>>
>>
>> Julian
>>
>> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:09 AM
>> To: Ed Mendez
>> Cc: DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Inland Empire California Highway Panteras; San Diego Panteras
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
>>
>> Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself so
>> we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those of
>> us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
>>
>> Jeff
>> 6659
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Dennis,
>>>
>>> I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom web
>>> link where it will take you right to the area to register for your room
>>> at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will send
>>> out an email to everyone once that happens.
>>>
>>> Thanks Ed
>>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>>>
>>> On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez <[1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Nice Flyer Ed!
>>> This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
>>> Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
>>> reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
>>> Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
>>> Dennis
>>> On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez <[2]edducati at mac.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> [3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>>> use the links above.
>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
>>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
>>> 2. mailto:edducati at mac.com
>>> 3. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
>>> the links above.
>>>
>>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
>>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
>>> the archiving of list messages.
>>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> This hotel is $899 per night with a minimum of a 4 night stay during
> Monterey car week in August. That is $3600 just for the hotel.
>
> Laguna Seca is by invitation only during car week as well. The cost is
> astronomical.
>
> I have gotten the parade laps at Laguna Seca for our event at no cost.
>
> Ed
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>
> On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:15, Julian Kift <[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Yeah if you could stay over until the August Monterey week when all the
> REAL car action happens that would be great!
>
> Julian
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
> of Jeff Detrich <[3]jjdetrich at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:09 AM
> To: Ed Mendez
> Cc: [4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Inland Empire California
> Highway Panteras; San Diego Panteras
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
>
> Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself
> so
> we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those
> of
> us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
> Jeff
> 6659
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez <[5]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
> > Thank you Dennis,
> >
> > I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom
> web
> > link where it will take you right to the area to register for your
> room
> > at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will
> send
> > out an email to everyone once that happens.
> >
> > Thanks Ed
> > Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> >
> > On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez
> <[1][6]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Nice Flyer Ed!
> > This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
> > Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
> > reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
> > Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
> > Dennis
> > On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez
> <[2][7]edducati at mac.com>
> > wrote:
> > Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> > _______________________________________________
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [3][8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > [4][9]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.)
> > use the links above.
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> > list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive
> > or approve the archiving of list messages.
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. [10]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> > 2. [11]mailto:edducati at mac.com
> > 3. [12]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > 4. [13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [14]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > [15]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use
> > the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list.
> > They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
> approve
> > the archiving of list messages.
> >
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
> 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
> 4. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 5. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 6. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> 7. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 8. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 10. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> 11. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 14. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 09:27:49 -0700
> From: Rich Hoppe <richbhoppe at gmail.com>
> To: Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com, Dan Courtney
> <dan at excaliburre.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
> Message-ID:
> <CAFi5N0Hs0Bij_ttLWc1CJ7ty4BoPZgXvZ0FitcaGLEBJPfiCUg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I would also be interested in a track event.
> I realize it will not happen in 2017.
> I am not complaining but I want to respond to the statement that track
> events should not be paid by POCA.
> I disagree with that.
> It is clearly a Pantera car function for people that want to drive with
> other pantera cars at speed on the track.
> I realize not everyone is interested in driving or watching the track
> events.
> But for argument sake we could also use anything to separate the
> differences of owners.
> I like drinking beer but a person could say why do we spend money on open
> bars when not everyone uses the free stuff.
> We could go on and on about how this function is only for a few or that is
> only for a few etc.
> I get annoyed that the club had over $100k in the acct but did not have
> money for a $5k co sponsor track function.
> It is small thinking.
>
> Rich Hoppe
>
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 5:01 AM, Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The racing event was also important for a number of members who went
>> and watched the racing and enjoyed walking the pit area. The Lone Star
>> FunA
>> Rally was a good example of coordinating the fun rally dates with a
>> track event run by a third party with less onerous requirements than
>> getting an SCCA license.
>> Jeff
>> 6559
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Ed Mendez <[1]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> You can race, but you'll have to get with the SCCA in order to join
>> their event that same weekend. SCCA race licensing and compliance.
>> Its financially infeasible and not prudent for the majority of
>> membership to subsidize a track event benefiting a very small
>> portion of the membership. Track costs and insurance makes it cost
>> prohibitive. Individual racers can get with the SCCA and race that
>> weekend.
>> This will be a great event not to be missed.
>> Ed
>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>>
>> > On Nov 19, 2016, at 14:49, Dan Courtney <[2]dan at excaliburre.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >A A Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas
>> primarily
>> >A A because of the ability to race on a world class track.
>> >A A Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring
>> and
>> >A A alienating the racers in the Club.
>> >A A Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in
>> having a
>> >A A Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
>> >A A Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
>> race
>> >A A car for a 1,000 mile trip.
>> >A A I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking
>> like
>> >A A the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
>> >A A Pantera racing tradition.
>> >A A As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged
>> Warrior,
>> >A A out.
>> >A A Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I
>> strongly
>> >A A feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
>> >A A priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
>> >
>> >A A Dan Courtney
>>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> > DeTomaso mailing list
>> > [3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> > [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> >
>> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>> use the links above.
>> >
>> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
>> any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [5]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> [6]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>> use the links above.
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:edducati at mac.com
>> 2. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
>> 3. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 5. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 6. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
>> the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
>> the archiving of list messages.
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> I would also be interested in a track event.
> I realize it will not happen in 2017.
> I am not complaining but I want to respond to the statement that track
> events should not be paid by POCA.
> I disagree with that.
> It is clearly a Pantera car function for people that want to drive with
> other pantera cars at speed on the track.
> I realize not everyone is interested in driving or watching the track
> events.
> But for argument sake we could also use anything to separate the
> differences of owners.
> I like drinking beer but a person could say why do we spend money on
> open bars when not everyone uses the free stuff.
> We could go on and on about how this function is only for a few or that
> is only for a few etc.
> I get annoyed that the club had over $100k in the acct but did not have
> money for a $5k co sponsor track function.
> It is small thinking.
> Rich Hoppe
>
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 5:01 AM, Jeff Detrich <[1]jjdetrich at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> A A The racing event was also important for a number of members who
> went
> A A and watched the racing and enjoyed walking the pit area. The
> Lone Star
> A A FunA
> A A Rally was a good example of coordinating the fun rally dates
> with a
> A A track event run by a third party with less onerous requirements
> than
> A A getting an SCCA license.
> A A Jeff
> A A 6559
> A A On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Ed Mendez
> <[1][2]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
> A A A You can race, but you'll have to get with the SCCA in order
> to join
> A A A their event that same weekend. SCCA race licensing and
> compliance.
> A A A Its financially infeasible and not prudent for the majority
> of
> A A A membership to subsidize a track event benefiting a very
> small
> A A A portion of the membership. Track costs and insurance makes
> it cost
> A A A prohibitive. Individual racers can get with the SCCA and
> race that
> A A A weekend.
> A A A This will be a great event not to be missed.
> A A A Ed
> A A A Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> A A > On Nov 19, 2016, at 14:49, Dan Courtney
> <[2][3]dan at excaliburre.com>
> A A wrote:
> A A >
> A A >AA A Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but
> thatas
> A A primarily
> A A >AA A because of the ability to race on a world class track.
> A A >AA A Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again
> ignoring
> A A and
> A A >AA A alienating the racers in the Club.
> A A >AA A Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the
> point in
> A A having a
> A A >AA A Pantera track car if you canat compete against other
> Panteras?
> A A >AA A Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth
> trailering a
> A A race
> A A >AA A car for a 1,000 mile trip.
> A A >AA A I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas
> looking
> A A like
> A A >AA A the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or
> about the
> A A >AA A Pantera racing tradition.
> A A >AA A As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The
> Winged
> A A Warrior,
> A A >AA A out.
> A A >AA A Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but
> I
> A A strongly
> A A >AA A feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should
> be a top
> A A >AA A priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
> A A >
> A A >AA A Dan Courtney
> A A > _______________________________________________
> A A >
> A A >
> A A > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> A A > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> A A > DeTomaso mailing list
> A A > [3][4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> A A > [4][5]http://server.detomasolist.
> com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> A A >
> A A > To manage your subscription (change email address,
> unsubscribe, etc.)
> A A use the links above.
> A A >
> A A > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
> forward
> A A any message posted here to all past, current, or future members
> of the
> A A list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive
> A A or approve the archiving of list messages.
> A A _______________________________________________
> A A Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> A A DeTomaso mailing list
> A A [5][6]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> A A [6][7]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> A A To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.)
> A A use the links above.
> A A Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
> forward any
> A A message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
> the
> A A list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive
> A A or approve the archiving of list messages.
> References
> A A 1. mailto:[8]edducati at mac.com
> A A 2. mailto:[9]dan at excaliburre.com
> A A 3. mailto:[10]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> A A 4. [11]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> A A 5. mailto:[12]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> A A 6. [13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [14]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [15]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
> 2. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 3. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
> 4. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 5. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 6. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 7. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 8. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 9. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
> 10. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 11. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 14. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 16:40:39 +0000
> From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> Cc: "DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
> <DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Inland Empire California Highway
> Panteras <poca1 at aol.com>, San Diego Panteras
> <sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
> Message-ID:
> <DM5PR18MB1323C7C81098EB141A6F6B0095B20 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Yes Monterey car week is expensive, this hotel more so as it hosts the Mecum auction, but you can still attend Monterey during August car week at reasonable cost, as many of the Pantera owners who attend Concorso Italiano and the Historic Racing will attest.
>
> Good on you for taking this on, providing a new and alternate venue for Pantera owners to gather at a hotel in an excellent setting on the golf course and with the added novelty of putting around a very historic track at no cost, of which I am sure many will enjoy.
>
> What is the hotel rate for the Fun Rally, I must have missed that email?
>
>
> The dilemma for me personally is that Monterey represents all that August car week offers, a hectic week of car-centric sensory overload, so why do it any other time. Baja Cantina is not Baja Cantina without an eclectic mix of cars coming and going, music and beer on the lawn. Any other time it's, well just a Mexican Cantina. 17 mile drive is a 17 mile low speed congested traffic opportunity for Pantera's to parade along and I'm sure the folks in retirement homes along the seafront will get a kick out of sitting on the front porch, blankets over knees and watching all those Pantera's pass by, shame not many of them will be able to actually hear them...
>
>
> Julian
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 8:13 AM
> To: Julian Kift
> Cc: Jeff Detrich; DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Inland Empire California Highway Panteras; San Diego Panteras
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
>
> This hotel is $899 per night with a minimum of a 4 night stay during Monterey car week in August. That is $3600 just for the hotel.
>
> Laguna Seca is by invitation only during car week as well. The cost is astronomical.
>
> I have gotten the parade laps at Laguna Seca for our event at no cost.
>
> Ed
>
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>
> On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:15, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com<mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Yeah if you could stay over until the August Monterey week when all the REAL car action happens that would be great!
>
>
> Julian
>
> ________________________________
> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>> on behalf of Jeff Detrich <jjdetrich at gmail.com<mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com>>
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:09 AM
> To: Ed Mendez
> Cc: DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>; Inland Empire California Highway Panteras; San Diego Panteras
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
>
> Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself so
> we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those of
> us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
>
> Jeff
> 6659
>
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com<mailto:edducati at mac.com>> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Dennis,
>>
>> I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom web
>> link where it will take you right to the area to register for your room
>> at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will send
>> out an email to everyone once that happens.
>>
>> Thanks Ed
>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>>
>> On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez <[1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com<mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Nice Flyer Ed!
>> This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
>> Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
>> reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
>> Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
>> Dennis
>> On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez <[2]edducati at mac.com<mailto:edducati at mac.com>>
>> wrote:
>> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> [4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>> use the links above.
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
>> 2. mailto:edducati at mac.com
>> 3. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
>> the links above.
>>
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
>> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
>> the archiving of list messages.
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> Yes Monterey car week is expensive, this hotel more so as it hosts the
> Mecum auction, but you can still attend Monterey during August car week
> at reasonable cost, as many of the Pantera owners who attend Concorso
> Italiano and the Historic Racing will attest.
>
> Good on you for taking this on, providing a new and alternate venue for
> Pantera owners to gather at a hotel in an excellent setting on the golf
> course and with the added novelty of putting around a very historic
> track at no cost, of which I am sure many will enjoy.
>
> What is the hotel rate for the Fun Rally, I must have missed that
> email?
>
> The dilemma for me personally is that Monterey represents all that
> August car week offers, a hectic week of car-centric sensory overload,
> so why do it any other time. Baja Cantina is not Baja Cantina without
> an eclectic mix of cars coming and going, music and beer on the lawn.
> Any other time it's, well just a Mexican Cantina. 17 mile drive is a 17
> mile low speed congested traffic opportunity for Pantera's to parade
> along and I'm sure the folks in retirement homes along the seafront
> will get a kick out of sitting on the front porch, blankets over knees
> and watching all those Pantera's pass by, shame not many of them will
> be able to actually hear them...
>
> Julian
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 8:13 AM
> To: Julian Kift
> Cc: Jeff Detrich; DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Inland Empire
> California Highway Panteras; San Diego Panteras
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
>
> This hotel is $899 per night with a minimum of a 4 night stay during
> Monterey car week in August. That is $3600 just for the hotel.
> Laguna Seca is by invitation only during car week as well. The cost is
> astronomical.
> I have gotten the parade laps at Laguna Seca for our event at no cost.
> Ed
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:15, Julian Kift <[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Yeah if you could stay over until the August Monterey week when all the
> REAL car action happens that would be great!
>
> Julian
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
> of Jeff Detrich <[3]jjdetrich at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:09 AM
> To: Ed Mendez
> Cc: [4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Inland Empire California
> Highway Panteras; San Diego Panteras
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
>
> Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself
> so
> we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those
> of
> us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
> Jeff
> 6659
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez <[5]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
> > Thank you Dennis,
> >
> > I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom
> web
> > link where it will take you right to the area to register for your
> room
> > at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will
> send
> > out an email to everyone once that happens.
> >
> > Thanks Ed
> > Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> >
> > On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez
> <[1][6]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Nice Flyer Ed!
> > This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
> > Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
> > reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
> > Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
> > Dennis
> > On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez
> <[2][7]edducati at mac.com>
> > wrote:
> > Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> > _______________________________________________
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [3][8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > [4][9]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.)
> > use the links above.
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> > list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
> archive
> > or approve the archiving of list messages.
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. [10]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> > 2. [11]mailto:edducati at mac.com
> > 3. [12]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > 4. [13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [14]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > [15]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use
> > the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
> any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list.
> > They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
> approve
> > the archiving of list messages.
> >
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
> 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
> 4. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 5. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 6. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> 7. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 8. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 9. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 10. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> 11. mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 14. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 15. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of DeTomaso Digest, Vol 149, Issue 20
> *****************************************
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
Team Pantera Orange County used to put-on the track events for a few
years at the Las Vegas Fun Rallye. We had drag racing and road racing
and one time, both types of racing on the same day. The attendance and
participation was decent. The track events were not considered part of
the Rallye itself and this was stated in the schedule of events that
was circulated by the Rallye organizers. Indeed, conflicting events
were scheduled at the same time as the racing events for those
participants who did not want to participate by even being a spectator.
Although Linda and I enjoy taking our cars onto a racing circuit, we
wouldn't expect those attending the Rallye to foot the bill. Taking
some parade laps at Laguna Seca is a monumental accomplishment by
itself and something very few DeTomaso owners will ever have the
opportunity to do. Only Jacob Shalit in his Candy Pantera ever competed
at Laguna Seca during the 'Historics. However, I did watch Mr. Cotter,
the subsequent owner of Candy compete in an SCCA event and did
amazingly well, even though he was grouped with the historic NASCAR
class. If anybody has a burning desire to track their car, they should
do as Ed pointed out and prepare their car for competition in the SCCA
event. If a Pantera can't meet the tech requirements of the SCCA, it
probably wouldn't be a good idea to race their car in the first place
on a circuit like Laguna Seca. I am certain that if any Pantera is
allowed to compete in that weekend's SCCA meeting, there will be plenty
of Pantera enthusiasts present to root them on! Forza! Dave and Linda
On 11/20/2016 9:00 AM, [1]detomaso-request at server.detomasolist.com
wrote:
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of DeTomaso digest..."
Daily Detomaso List Digest
Today's Topics:
1. Re: 2017 POCA Fun Rally (Jeff Detrich)
2. Re: Data for K&N filters (Julian Kift)
3. Re: 2017 POCA Fun Rally (Julian Kift)
4. Qvale Mangusta on FOX (The DeTomaso Registry Guy)
5. Re: 2017 POCA Fun Rally (Ed Mendez)
6. Re: Data for K&N filters (Charles McCall)
7. Re: Data for K&N filters (Daniel C Jones)
8. Re: Data for K&N filters (marshallgsmith)
9. NPC (Michael Barnes)
10. Re: Data for K&N filters (Roland)
11. Re: Data for K&N filters (Charles McCall)
12. Data for K&N filters (Garth Rodericks)
13. No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally? (Dan Courtney)
14. Re: No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally? (mark skwarek)
15. Re: Data for K&N filters (Ken Green)
16. Re: No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally? (Asa Jay Laughton)
17. Re: No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally? (Dan Courtney)
18. Re: No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally? (Ed Mendez)
19. Re: Data for K&N filters (Roland)
20. Re: No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally? (Jeff Detrich)
21. Re: 2017 POCA Fun Rally (Jeff Detrich)
22. Re: 2017 POCA Fun Rally (Ed Mendez)
23. Re: No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally? (Rich Hoppe)
24. Re: 2017 POCA Fun Rally (Julian Kift)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 11:09:21 -0600
From: Jeff Detrich [6]<jjdetrich at gmail.com>
To: Ed Mendez [7]<edducati at mac.com>
Cc: [8]"DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
[9]<DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Inland Empire California Highway
Panteras [10]<poca1 at aol.com>, San Diego Panteras
[11]<sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
Message-ID:
[12]<CANX29aXn4MLN06bxFNB1S-DTGPSjCp+k9_ryxecjfuKJTzPv9A at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself so
we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those of
us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
Jeff
6659
On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez [13]<edducati at mac.com> wrote:
Thank you Dennis,
I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom web
link where it will take you right to the area to register for your room
at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will send
out an email to everyone once that happens.
Thanks Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez [14]<[1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
Nice Flyer Ed!
This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
Dennis
On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez [15]<[2]edducati at mac.com>
wrote:
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
_______________________________________________
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References
1. [18]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
2. [19]mailto:edducati at mac.com
3. [20]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. [21]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
_______________________________________________
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They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself
so we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for
those of us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
Jeff
6659
On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez [24]<[1]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
A A Thank you Dennis,
A A I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a
custom web
A A link where it will take you right to the area to register for
your room
A A at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I
will send
A A out an email to everyone once that happens.
A A Thanks Ed
A A Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
A A On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez
[25]<[1][2]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
A A wrote:
A A Nice Flyer Ed!
A A This works well for me since we won't be able to attend
Concorso
A A Italiano weekend next year.A Any Idea when the hotel will
accept
A A reservations?A Any idea what the room rates will be?
A A Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
A A Dennis
A A On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez
[26]<[2][3]edducati at mac.com>
A A wrote:
A A Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
A A _______________________________________________
A A Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A [3][[27]4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
A A [4][5][28]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
A A To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
A A use the links above.
A A Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward any
A A message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the
A A list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
A A or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
A A 1. mailto:[[29]6]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
A A 2. mailto:[[30]7]edducati at mac.com
A A 3. mailto:[[31]8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
A A 4. [9][32]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
_______________________________________________
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References
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2. [36]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
3. [37]mailto:edducati at mac.com
4. [38]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
5. [39]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
6. [40]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
7. [41]mailto:edducati at mac.com
8. [42]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
9. [43]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
10. [44]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
11. [45]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 17:13:38 +0000
From: Julian Kift [46]<julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: Charles McCall [47]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>, Detomaso Email List
[48]<detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
Message-ID:
[49]<DM5PR18MB1323E2BDEBFF07F74D3E3E9695B30 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod.
outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Charlie,
It is almost an impossible task to find unbiased data, ask any statistician they
make a living at it!
Getting more air in the engine = more HP right? So if K&N filters are higher air
flow through a coarser mesh then science says there must be a corresponding HP
increase! That said I have yet to find a before and after dyno test with a stoc
k, alternative or K&N filter that proves such, however there are many web commen
ts attesting that the decal K&N supply is good for 5HP alone.....
So why is there no clear evidence? Well it is probably because a stock air filte
r is not a restriction to getting air into the engine, car manufacturers simply
don't design that way, that is unless you run NASCAR restrictor plate series! If
the engine is getting enough air already (and maintaining ideal Air to Fuel Rat
io) what difference does providing access to more air (at constant pressure) mak
e? None, you can pick a nice day remove your air filter and go for a test drive
and this is the ultimate unrestricted air filter.......
But now you are not 'filtering' anything, so the K&N overcomes this with a light
coating of oil on the coarse mesh to theoretically catch dust. Simple physics s
ays there is higher probability that at least a portion of the dust will find a
clear path to the intake without being impeded by the mesh or oil. However, as y
ou can attest at least a good portion of dust remains on the outside of the filt
er! How much the passing dust impacts engine life is the big unknown, but assumi
ng you had enough air getting to the engine with your stock filter anyway you ar
e now just adding contaminants to your air/fuel mixture.
If we also think about the dirt/dust increased inflow in specific relation to a
Pantera application we know that the engine bay is a vacuum for road dirt from u
nder the car so with higher dust loading in the air I'd expect even more dirt se
es its way into the engine. In addition, comparing a stock filter assembly to af
termarket, in the latter you also typically have an exposed filter element sandw
iched between an upper and lower plate with a much greater surface area exposed
to that dirt than a stock style snorkel air filter would have.
If you do find your engine is starving for air at higher rpms and you really nee
d more volume then why not just increase the surface area of the stock style air
filter? i.e. use a bigger filter. If you really want to increase HP then provid
e denser air i.e. colder or higher pressure. The moral of the story is throw the
K&N filter away and get a blower/intercooler, but wait then you might need a hi
gh flow air filter to pass all that extra air...
Personally I just have to drive over to CA and the elevation difference alone wi
ll give me 15% more power for the cost of a tank of gas! And yes it is very noti
ceable from my unbiased and highly tuned seat of the pants, relaying to my Adren
alin meter!
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso [50]<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Charl
es McCall [51]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 7:06 AM
To: Detomaso Email List
Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people on
the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a good
idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly oiled,
it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually gained
by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his truck
with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate the
comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I don't
believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
-------------- next part --------------
Charlie,
It is almost an impossible task to find unbiased data, ask any
statistician they make a living at it!
Getting more air in the engine = more HP right? So if K&N filters are
higher air flow through a coarser mesh then science says there must be
a corresponding HP increase! That said I have yet to find a before and
after dyno test with a stock, alternative or K&N filter that proves
such, however there are many web comments attesting that the decal K&N
supply is good for 5HP alone.....
So why is there no clear evidence? Well it is probably because a stock
air filter is not a restriction to getting air into the engine,
car manufacturers simply don't design that way, that is unless you run
NASCAR restrictor plate series! If the engine is getting enough air
already (and maintaining ideal Air to Fuel Ratio) what difference does
providing access to more air (at constant pressure) make? None, you can
pick a nice day remove your air filter and go for a test drive and this
is the ultimate unrestricted air filter.......
But now you are not 'filtering' anything, so the K&N overcomes this
with a light coating of oil on the coarse mesh to theoretically catch
dust. Simple physics says there is higher probability that at least a
portion of the dust will find a clear path to the intake without being
impeded by the mesh or oil. However, as you can attest at least a good
portion of dust remains on the outside of the filter! How much
the passing dust impacts engine life is the big unknown, but assuming
you had enough air getting to the engine with your stock filter anyway
you are now just adding contaminants to your air/fuel mixture.
If we also think about the dirt/dust increased
inflow in specific relation to a Pantera application we know that the
engine bay is a vacuum for road dirt from under the car so with
higher dust loading in the air I'd expect even more dirt sees its way
into the engine. In addition, comparing a stock filter assembly to
aftermarket, in the latter you also typically have an exposed filter
element sandwiched between an upper and lower plate with a much greater
surface area exposed to that dirt than a stock style snorkel air filter
would have.
If you do find your engine is starving for air at higher rpms and
you really need more volume then why not just increase the surface area
of the stock style air filter? i.e. use a bigger filter. If you
really want to increase HP then provide denser air i.e. colder or
higher pressure. The moral of the story is throw the K&N filter away
and get a blower/intercooler, but wait then you might need a high flow
air filter to pass all that extra air...
Personally I just have to drive over to CA and the elevation difference
alone will give me 15% more power for the cost of a tank of gas! And
yes it is very noticeable from my unbiased and highly tuned seat of the
pants, relaying to my Adrenalin meter!
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso [52]<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Charles McCall [53]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 7:06 AM
To: Detomaso Email List
Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
on
the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
good
idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
oiled,
it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
gained
by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
truck
with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate
the
comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
don't
believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 17:15:08 +0000
From: Julian Kift [54]<julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: Jeff Detrich [55]<jjdetrich at gmail.com>, Ed Mendez [56]<edducati at mac.com>
Cc: [57]"DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
[58]<DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Inland Empire California Highway
Panteras [59]<poca1 at aol.com>, San Diego Panteras
[60]<sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
Message-ID:
[61]<DM5PR18MB1323B8843922ECF05FBC5ED895B30 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod.
outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Yeah if you could stay over until the August Monterey week when all the REAL car
action happens that would be great!
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso [62]<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Jeff
Detrich [63]<jjdetrich at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:09 AM
To: Ed Mendez
Cc: [64]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Inland Empire California Highway Pante
ras; San Diego Panteras
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself so
we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those of
us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
Jeff
6659
On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez [65]<edducati at mac.com> wrote:
Thank you Dennis,
I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom web
link where it will take you right to the area to register for your room
at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will send
out an email to everyone once that happens.
Thanks Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez [66]<[1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
Nice Flyer Ed!
This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
Dennis
On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez [67]<[2]edducati at mac.com>
wrote:
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[[68]3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[4][69]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
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list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. [70]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
2. [71]mailto:edducati at mac.com
3. [72]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. [73]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[74]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[75]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
Yeah if you could stay over until the August Monterey week when all the
REAL car action happens that would be great!
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso [76]<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Jeff Detrich [77]<jjdetrich at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:09 AM
To: Ed Mendez
Cc: [78]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Inland Empire California Highway
Panteras; San Diego Panteras
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself
so
we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those
of
us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
Jeff
6659
On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez [79]<edducati at mac.com> wrote:
> Thank you Dennis,
>
> I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom
web
> link where it will take you right to the area to register for your
room
> at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will
send
> out an email to everyone once that happens.
>
> Thanks Ed
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>
> On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez [80]<[1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> Nice Flyer Ed!
> This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
> Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
> reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
> Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
> Dennis
> On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez
[81]<[2]edducati at mac.com>
> wrote:
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [[82]3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [4][83]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. [1][84]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> 2. [2][85]mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 3. [3][86]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. [4][87]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [88]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [5][89]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use
> the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list.
> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
approve
> the archiving of list messages.
>
References
1. [90]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
2. [91]mailto:edducati at mac.com
3. [92]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. [93]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
5. [94]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:41:47 -0800
From: The DeTomaso Registry Guy [95]<detomasoregistry at gmail.com>
To: "DeTomaso List" [96]<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Qvale Mangusta on FOX
Message-ID: <5AB08D9EAB5145F88A1D0505661B23B4 at BOSS3A>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
[97]www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/11/18/under-30000-exotics-that-arent-terrible.html
[98]<http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/11/18/under-30000-exotics-tht-arent-terrib
le.html>
Chuck
The De Tomaso Registry Guy
[99]http://www.detomasoregistry.org/Members/ProvaMoMemMain.asp
-------------- next part --------------
[1]www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/11/18/under-30000-exotics-that-arent-terri
ble.html
Chuck
The De Tomaso Registry Guy
[2][100]http://www.detomasoregistry.org/Members/ProvaMoMemMain.asp
References
1. [101]http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/11/18/under-30000-exotics-tht-arent-
terrible.html
2. [102]http://www.detomasoregistry.org/Members/ProvaMoMemMain.asp
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 10:59:26 -0700
From: Ed Mendez [103]<edducati at mac.com>
To: Jeff Detrich [104]<jjdetrich at gmail.com>
Cc: [105]"DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
[106]<DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Inland Empire California Highwa
y
Panteras [107]<poca1 at aol.com>, San Diego Panteras
[108]<sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
Message-ID: [109]<4AB4CEA1-A7B6-4B57-851C-8D2094DA8827 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I will talk to them on Monday but I am sure it would be no big deal I am thinkin
g about staying there for the whole week.
Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:09, Jeff Detrich [110]<jjdetrich at gmail.com> wrote:
Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself so we ca
n make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those of us east of
the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
Jeff
6659
On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez [111]<edducati at mac.com> wrote:
Thank you Dennis,
I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom web
link where it will take you right to the area to register for your room
at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will send
out an email to everyone once that happens.
Thanks Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez [112]<[1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
Nice Flyer Ed!
This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
Dennis
On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez [113]<[2]edducati at mac.com>
wrote:
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[[114]3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[4][115]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
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or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. [116]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
2. [117]mailto:edducati at mac.com
3. [118]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. [119]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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[120]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[121]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the li
nks above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message p
osted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant
the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of lis
t messages.
-------------- next part --------------
I will talk to them on Monday but I am sure it would be no big deal I
am thinking about staying there for the whole week.
Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:09, Jeff Detrich [122]<[1]jjdetrich at gmail.com> wrote:
Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself
so we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for
those of us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
Jeff
6659
On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez [123]<[2]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
Thank you Dennis,
I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a
custom web
link where it will take you right to the area to register for
your room
at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will
send
out an email to everyone once that happens.
Thanks Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez
[124]<[1][3]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
Nice Flyer Ed!
This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
Dennis
On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez
[125]<[2][4]edducati at mac.com>
wrote:
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[3][[126]5]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[4][6][127]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward any
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the
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or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. mailto:[[128]7]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
2. mailto:[[129]8]edducati at mac.com
3. mailto:[[130]9]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. [10][131]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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[[132]11]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[12][133]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
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References
1. [134]mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
2. [135]mailto:edducati at mac.com
3. [136]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
4. [137]mailto:edducati at mac.com
5. [138]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
6. [139]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
7. [140]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
8. [141]mailto:edducati at mac.com
9. [142]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
10. [143]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
11. [144]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
12. [145]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:07:00 +0100
From: Charles McCall [146]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>
To: "'marshallgsmith'" [147]<marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net>, "'Detomaso
Email List'" [148]<detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
Message-ID: [149]<031e01d2428f$ba2502f0$2e6f08d0$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
By unbiased, I mean that K&N has an interest in selling their filters. Is there
a reputable engine builder that has done back to back dyno testing and published
the results?
Someone like Dan Jones, or someone else that isn?t on the payroll of a manufactu
rer? Some enthusiast that has done testing but isn?t sponsored by anyone?
From: marshallgsmith [[150]mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net]
Sent: s?bado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 17:39
To: Charles McCall; Detomaso Email List
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
In reference to unbiased data, are you referring to the K & N Corporation or you
r fellow Pantera owners opinions?
M
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charles McCall [151]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Date: 11/19/16 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: Detomaso Email List [152]<detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people on
the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a good
idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly oiled,
it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually gained
by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his truck
with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate the
comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I don't
believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
good idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
gained by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data... Thanks!
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[153]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[154]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the li
nks above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message p
osted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant
the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of lis
t messages.
-------------- next part --------------
By unbiased, I mean that K&N has an interest in selling their filters.
Is there a reputable engine builder that has done back to back dyno
testing and published the results?
Someone like Dan Jones, or someone else that isn't on the payroll of a
manufacturer? Some enthusiast that has done testing but isn't sponsored
by anyone?
From: marshallgsmith [[155]mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net]
Sent: sabado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 17:39
To: Charles McCall; Detomaso Email List
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
In reference to unbiased data, are you referring to the K & N
Corporation or your fellow Pantera owners opinions?
M
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charles McCall [156]<[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Date: 11/19/16 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: Detomaso Email List [157]<[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
on
the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
good
idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
oiled,
it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
gained
by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
truck
with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate
the
comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
don't
believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several
people
on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such
a
good idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
gained by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but
I
don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data...
Thanks!
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[[158]3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[4][159]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
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or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. [160]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
2. [161]mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
3. [162]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. [163]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 12:07:35 -0600
From: Daniel C Jones [164]<daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
Cc: Detomaso Email List [165]<detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
Message-ID:
[166]<CAD=EzWVyWUYNiL1hbk82cvOzJp=J8fU7O9CgYNmaoQYTSJt1Ag at mail.gmail.com
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
See Chapter 2 of David Vizard's "How to Build Horsepower". Google's book
preview shows this chapter.
Dan Jones
On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Charles McCall [167]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>
wrote:
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
good idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
gained by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data... Thanks!
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[168]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[169]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
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They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
See Chapter 2 of David Vizard's "How to Build Horsepower".A Google's
book preview shows this chapter.
Dan Jones
On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Charles McCall
[170]<[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com> wrote:
A A After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several
people
A A on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't
such a
A A good idea. Comments received include:
A A "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
A A "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't
properly
A A oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
A A Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is
actually
A A gained by using one? Or lost?
A A On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in
his
A A truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with
controls to
A A indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
A A Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election
campaign, but I
A A don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data...
Thanks!
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[[171]2]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[3][172]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
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the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. [173]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
2. [174]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
3. [175]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 10:37:23 -0800
From: marshallgsmith [176]<marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net>
To: Charles McCall [177]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>, 'Detomaso Email List'
[178]<detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
Message-ID: [179]<x1cty9y4npadkd5gncsk1s19.1479580349206 at email.android.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I always thought that the lack of comparative Dyno testing by K & N between thei
r filter and paper filters was pretty suspect. All we've ever had from them is t
he claim of 5 more horsepower and a filter that lasts a lifetime. And that if yo
u believe that a garden hose could rinse all the dirt out of a filter that milli
ons of cubic feet of air passes through over years of operation.
Marshall
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charles McCall [180]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Date: 11/19/16 10:07 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: 'marshallgsmith' [181]<marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net>, 'Detomaso Email List'
[182]<detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
By unbiased, I mean that K&N has an interest in selling their filters. Is there
a reputable engine builder that has done back to back dyno testing and published
the results?Someone like Dan Jones, or someone else that isn?t on the payroll o
f a manufacturer? Some enthusiast that has done testing but isn?t sponsored by a
nyone??From: marshallgsmith [[183]mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net]
Sent: s?bado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 17:39
To: Charles McCall; Detomaso Email List
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters?In reference to unbiased data, are
you referring to the K & N Corporation or your fellow Pantera owners opinions??M
???Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charles McCall [184]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Date: 11/19/16 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: Detomaso Email List [185]<detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people on
the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a good
idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly oiled,
it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually gained
by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his truck
with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate the
comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I don't
believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
?? After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
?? on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
?? good idea. Comments received include:
?? "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
?? "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
?? oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
?? Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
?? gained by using one? Or lost?
?? On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
?? truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
?? indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
?? Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
?? don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data... Thanks!
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[186]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[187]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the li
nks above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message p
osted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant
the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of lis
t messages.
-------------- next part --------------
I always thought that the lack of comparative Dyno testing by K & N
between their filter and paper filters was pretty suspect. All we've
ever had from them is the claim of 5 more horsepower and a filter that
lasts a lifetime. And that if you believe that a garden hose could
rinse all the dirt out of a filter that millions of cubic feet of air
passes through over years of operation.
Marshall
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charles McCall [188]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Date: 11/19/16 10:07 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: 'marshallgsmith' [189]<marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net>, 'Detomaso Email
List' [190]<detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
By unbiased, I mean that K&N has an interest in selling their filters.
Is there a reputable engine builder that has done back to back dyno
testing and published the results?
Someone like Dan Jones, or someone else that isn't on the payroll of a
manufacturer? Some enthusiast that has done testing but isn't sponsored
by anyone?
From: marshallgsmith [[191]mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net]
Sent: sabado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 17:39
To: Charles McCall; Detomaso Email List
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
In reference to unbiased data, are you referring to the K & N
Corporation or your fellow Pantera owners opinions?
M
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charles McCall [192]<[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Date: 11/19/16 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: Detomaso Email List [193]<[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
on
the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
good
idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
oiled,
it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
gained
by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
truck
with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate
the
comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
don't
believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several
people
on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such
a
good idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
gained by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but
I
don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data...
Thanks!
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[[194]3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[4][195]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. [196]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
2. [197]mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
3. [198]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. [199]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 18:48:44 +0000
From: Michael Barnes [200]<michaelbarnessrt10 at hotmail.co.uk>
To: [201]"detomaso at detomasolist.com" [202]<detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] NPC
Message-ID:
[203]<LOXP123MB0072B0179CBA2585D9FB051D88B30 at LOXP123MB0072.GBRP123.PROD.
OUTLOOK.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello chaps,
Thought I'd share one of the upgrades I've been carrying out in my Mopar garage,
hope you like it
Michael
-------------- next part --------------
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9/afd7be06/attachment-0001.jpe>
-------------- next part --------------
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------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:17:34 +0000
From: Roland [206]<willibillie at live.de>
To: [207]"detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
[208]<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
Message-ID:
[209]<VI1PR0101MB1758744BD5490FC3D5E0D262B3B30 at VI1PR0101MB1758.eurprd01.
prod.exchangelabs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
This might help:
[210]https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
Am 19.11.2016 um 19:07 schrieb Charles McCall:
By unbiased, I mean that K&N has an interest in selling their filters.
Is there a reputable engine builder that has done back to back dyno
testing and published the results?
Someone like Dan Jones, or someone else that isn't on the payroll of a
manufacturer? Some enthusiast that has done testing but isn't sponsored
by anyone?
From: marshallgsmith [[211]mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net]
Sent: sabado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 17:39
To: Charles McCall; Detomaso Email List
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
In reference to unbiased data, are you referring to the K & N
Corporation or your fellow Pantera owners opinions?
M
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charles McCall [212]<[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>[213]<mailto:[1]charles
mccall at gmail.com>
Date: 11/19/16 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: Detomaso Email List [214]<[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com>[215]<mailto:[2]de
tomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
on
the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
good
idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
oiled,
it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
gained
by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
truck
with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate
the
comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
don't
believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several
people
on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such
a
good idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
gained by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but
I
don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data...
Thanks!
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[[216]3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com[217]<mailto:3]DeTomaso at server.detoma
solist.com>
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
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References
1. [219]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
2. [220]mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
3. [221]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. [222]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
_______________________________________________
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DeTomaso mailing list
[223]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com[224]<mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.c
om>
[225]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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t messages.
-------------- next part --------------
This might help:
[1][226]https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
Am 19.11.2016 um 19:07 schrieb Charles McCall:
By unbiased, I mean that K&N has an interest in selling their filters.
Is there a reputable engine builder that has done back to back dyno
testing and published the results?
Someone like Dan Jones, or someone else that isn't on the payroll of a
manufacturer? Some enthusiast that has done testing but isn't sponsored
by anyone?
From: marshallgsmith [[2][227]mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net]
Sent: sabado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 17:39
To: Charles McCall; Detomaso Email List
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
In reference to unbiased data, are you referring to the K & N
Corporation or your fellow Pantera owners opinions?
M
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Charles McCall [3][228]<[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Date: 11/19/16 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: Detomaso Email List [4][229]<[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
on
the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
good
idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
oiled,
it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
gained
by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
truck
with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate
the
comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
don't
believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several
people
on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such
a
good idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
gained by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but
I
don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data...
Thanks!
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[[[230]5]3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[4][6][231]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
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References
1. [7][232]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
2. [8][233]mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
3. [9][234]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. [10][235]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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DeTomaso mailing list
[[236]11]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[12][237]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message p
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t messages.
References
1. [238]https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
2. [239]mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net
3. mailto:[[240]1]charlesmccall at gmail.com
4. mailto:[[241]2]detomaso at detomasolist.com
5. [242]mail[243]mailto:3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
6. [244]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
7. [245]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
8. [246]mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
9. [247]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
10. [248]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
11. [249]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
12. [250]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 20:19:12 +0100
From: Charles McCall [251]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>
To: "'Daniel C Jones'" [252]<daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
Cc: 'Detomaso Email List' [253]<detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
Message-ID: [254]<03a501d24299$d0430b90$70c922b0$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Thanks, Dan. Very interesting reading!
May be found here:
[255]https://books.google.es/books?id=OAw1GDB0kN0C&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=o
nepage&q&f=false
Basically says that K&N works, it flows nearly double the best of the paper filt
ers. Even a dirty K&N flows more than a new paper filter.
Also says that cold air is hugely important to dyno numbers and 1/4 mile times..
Worth a few minutes reading
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [[256]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf
Of Daniel C Jones
Sent: s?bado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 19:08
Cc: Detomaso Email List
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
See Chapter 2 of David Vizard's "How to Build Horsepower". Google's book
preview shows this chapter.
Dan Jones
On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Charles McCall [257]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>
wrote:
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
good idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
gained by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data... Thanks!
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------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 20:50:35 +0000 (UTC)
From: Garth Rodericks [260]<garth_rodericks at yahoo.com>
To: DeTomaso Mail List [261]<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
Message-ID: [262]<743741959.344191.1479588635160 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Years ago I recall reading a magazine dyno test (Hot Rod? Car Craft? or one of t
hose) of a typical round K&N filter against a comparable paper filter, but I can
't find it online. ?I recall they found the K&N didn't provide any additional ho
rsepower against a stock filter when new, however after a limited time/miles (si
mulated by adding dust to the filters on the dyno) they found the K&N provided a
horsepower increase over the paper filters as their flow capacity was greatly r
educed pretty quickly as they began to collect dirt. But, they also provided mor
e protection for your engine! ?Again, this is just from memory, and I have no in
terest in promoting K&N. I do have a K&N filter on my Pantera and have thought a
bout just stocking up on inexpensive paper filters and changing them more regula
rly as the K&N it seems to get dirty quite quickly and it's a PITA to clean.
Here are some other resources:[263]http://www.knfilters.com/filter_facts.htm?- Y
es, this is K&N's website, but there are some links to other resources (which ar
e favorable toward K&N of course)
[264]https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm?- Bob is the oil guy
filter test results - a good read.
I couldn't find any other resources online worth reading other than Dan's post f
rom David Vizard's book "How to Build Horsepower" (Thanks for the link Julian).h
ttps://books.google.es/books?id=OAw1GDB0kN0C&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage
&q&f=false
Everything else online is just miscellaneous drivel on other car forums with peo
ple arguing back and forth.
Cheers!
Garth
#4033
-------------- next part --------------
Years ago I recall reading a magazine dyno test (Hot Rod? Car Craft? or
one of those) of a typical round K&N filter against a comparable paper
filter, but I can't find it online. I recall they found the K&N didn't
provide any additional horsepower against a stock filter when new,
however after a limited time/miles (simulated by adding dust to the
filters on the dyno) they found the K&N provided a horsepower increase
over the paper filters as their flow capacity was greatly reduced
pretty quickly as they began to collect dirt. But, they also provided
more protection for your engine! Again, this is just from memory, and
I have no interest in promoting K&N. I do have a K&N filter on my
Pantera and have thought about just stocking up on inexpensive paper
filters and changing them more regularly as the K&N it seems to get
dirty quite quickly and it's a PITA to clean.
Here are some other resources:
[1][265]http://www.knfilters.com/filter_facts.htm - Yes, this is K&N's
website, but there are some links to other resources (which are
favorable toward K&N of course)
[2][266]https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm - Bob is the
oil guy filter test results - a good read.
I couldn't find any other resources online worth reading other than
Dan's post from David Vizard's book "How to Build Horsepower" (Thanks
for the link Julian).
[3][267]https://books.google.es/books?id=OAw1GDB0kN0C&printsec=frontcover&hl
=es#v=onepage&q&f=false
Everything else online is just miscellaneous drivel on other car forums
with people arguing back and forth.
Cheers!
Garth
#4033
References
1. [268]http://www.knfilters.com/filter_facts.htm
2. [269]https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
3. [270]https://books.google.es/books?id=OAw1GDB0kN0C&printsec=frontcover&hl=
es#v=onepage&q&f=false
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 13:49:21 -0800
From: "Dan Courtney" [271]<dan at excaliburre.com>
To: [272]<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
Message-ID: <3331D43CCABC45BA83170DEC9AE9C749 at HPLaptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but that?s primarily because of t
he ability to race on a world class track.
I?m really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and alienating
the racers in the Club.
Two years in a row without a track event? What?s the point in having a Pantera t
rack car if you can?t compete against other Panteras?
Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a race car for a
1,000 mile trip.
I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now it?s looking like the Club d
oesn?t care about it?s racing contingency, or about the Pantera racing tradition
.
As of this moment I?d say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior, out.
Maybe I?ll get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly feel that th
e ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top priority in selecting a ve
nue for any Fun Rally.
Dan Courtney
-------------- next part --------------
Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
because of the ability to race on a world class track.
Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
alienating the racers in the Club.
Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having a
Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a race
car for a 1,000 mile trip.
I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
Pantera racing tradition.
As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
out.
Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
Dan Courtney
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:21:52 +0000 (UTC)
From: mark skwarek [273]<ehpantera at yahoo.com>
To: Dan Courtney [274]<dan at excaliburre.com>,
[275]"detomaso at server.detomasolist.com" [276]<detomaso at server.detomasoli
st.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
Message-ID: [277]<298645879.384547.1479594112153 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Dan,
How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a?parade lap.
Mark
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney [278]<dan at excaliburre.c
om> wrote:
? Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
? because of the ability to race on a world class track.
? Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
? alienating the racers in the Club.
? Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having a
? Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
? Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a race
? car for a 1,000 mile trip.
? I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
? the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
? Pantera racing tradition.
? As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
? out.
? Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
? feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
? priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
? Dan Courtney
_______________________________________________
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Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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[280]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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t messages.
-------------- next part --------------
Dan,
How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a parade lap.
Mark
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney
[281]<dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
because of the ability to race on a world class track.
Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
alienating the racers in the Club.
Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having
a
Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
race
car for a 1,000 mile trip.
I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
Pantera racing tradition.
As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
out.
Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
Dan Courtney
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[[282]1]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[2][283]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. [284]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
2. [285]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 23:00:24 +0000 (UTC)
From: Ken Green [286]<kenn_green at yahoo.com>
To: Julian Kift [287]<julian_kift at hotmail.com>, Charles McCall
[288]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>, Detomaso Email List
[289]<detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
Message-ID: [290]<855018109.370005.1479596424548 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
You probably have to factor in? your maintenance habits.? If you buy a new paper
filter once a month versus cleaning a K&N filter once a year you may get one re
sult.? If you buy a new paper filter once a year versus cleaning a K&N filter on
ce a year you may get?another result.?
From: Julian Kift [291]<julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: Charles McCall [292]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>; Detomaso Email List [293]<de
tomaso at detomasolist.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
? Charlie,
? It is almost an impossible task to find unbiased data, ask any
? statistician they make a living at it!
? Getting more air in the engine = more HP right? So if K&N filters are
? higher air flow through a coarser mesh then science says there must be
? a corresponding HP increase!? That said I have yet to find a before and
? after dyno test with a stock, alternative or K&N filter that proves
? such, however there are many web comments? attesting that the decal K&N
? supply is good for 5HP alone.....
? So why is there no clear evidence? Well it is probably because a stock
? air filter is not a restriction to getting air into the engine,
? car manufacturers simply don't design that way, that is unless you run
? NASCAR restrictor plate series! If the engine is getting enough air
? already (and maintaining ideal Air to Fuel Ratio) what difference does
? providing access to more air (at constant pressure) make? None, you can
? pick a nice day remove your air filter and go for a test drive and this
? is the ultimate unrestricted air filter.......
? But now you are not 'filtering' anything, so the K&N overcomes this
? with a light coating of oil on the coarse mesh to theoretically catch
? dust. Simple physics says there is higher probability that at least a
? portion of the dust will find a clear path to the intake without being
? impeded by the mesh or oil. However, as you can attest at least a good
? portion of dust remains on the outside of the filter! How much
? the passing dust impacts engine life is the big unknown, but assuming
? you had enough air getting to the engine with your stock filter anyway
? you are now just adding contaminants to your air/fuel mixture.
? If we also think about the dirt/dust increased
? inflow in specific relation to a Pantera application we know that the
? engine bay is a vacuum for road dirt from under the car so with
? higher dust loading in the air I'd expect even more dirt sees its way
? into the engine. In addition, comparing a stock filter assembly to
? aftermarket, in the latter you also typically have an exposed filter
? element sandwiched between an upper and lower plate with a much greater
? surface area exposed to that dirt than a stock style snorkel air filter
? would have.
? If you do find your engine is starving for air at higher rpms and
? you really need more volume then why not just increase the surface area
? of the stock style air filter? i.e. use a bigger filter. If you
? really want to increase HP then provide denser air i.e. colder or
? higher pressure. The moral of the story is throw the K&N filter away
? and get a blower/intercooler, but wait then you might need a high flow
? air filter to pass all that extra air...
? Personally I just have to drive over to CA and the elevation difference
? alone will give me 15% more power for the cost of a tank of gas! And
? yes it is very noticeable from my unbiased and highly tuned seat of the
? pants, relaying to my Adrenalin meter!
? Julian
? ? __________________________________________________________________
? From: DeTomaso [294]<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
? Charles McCall [295]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>
? Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 7:06 AM
? To: Detomaso Email List
? Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
? After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
? on
? the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
? good
? idea. Comments received include:
? "My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
? "If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
? oiled,
? it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
? Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
? gained
? by using one? Or lost?
? On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
? truck
? with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to indicate
? the
? comparative engine wear between filter types?
? Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
? don't
? believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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[296]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[297]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the li
nks above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message p
osted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant
the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of lis
t messages.
-------------- next part --------------
You probably have to factor in your maintenance habits. If you buy a
new paper filter once a month versus cleaning a K&N filter once a year
you may get one result. If you buy a new paper filter once a year
versus cleaning a K&N filter once a year you may get another result.
__________________________________________________________________
From: Julian Kift [298]<julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: Charles McCall [299]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>; Detomaso Email List
[300]<detomaso at detomasolist.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
Charlie,
It is almost an impossible task to find unbiased data, ask any
statistician they make a living at it!
Getting more air in the engine = more HP right? So if K&N filters are
higher air flow through a coarser mesh then science says there must
be
a corresponding HP increase! That said I have yet to find a before
and
after dyno test with a stock, alternative or K&N filter that proves
such, however there are many web comments attesting that the decal
K&N
supply is good for 5HP alone.....
So why is there no clear evidence? Well it is probably because a
stock
air filter is not a restriction to getting air into the engine,
car manufacturers simply don't design that way, that is unless you
run
NASCAR restrictor plate series! If the engine is getting enough air
already (and maintaining ideal Air to Fuel Ratio) what difference
does
providing access to more air (at constant pressure) make? None, you
can
pick a nice day remove your air filter and go for a test drive and
this
is the ultimate unrestricted air filter.......
But now you are not 'filtering' anything, so the K&N overcomes this
with a light coating of oil on the coarse mesh to theoretically catch
dust. Simple physics says there is higher probability that at least a
portion of the dust will find a clear path to the intake without
being
impeded by the mesh or oil. However, as you can attest at least a
good
portion of dust remains on the outside of the filter! How much
the passing dust impacts engine life is the big unknown, but assuming
you had enough air getting to the engine with your stock filter
anyway
you are now just adding contaminants to your air/fuel mixture.
If we also think about the dirt/dust increased
inflow in specific relation to a Pantera application we know that the
engine bay is a vacuum for road dirt from under the car so with
higher dust loading in the air I'd expect even more dirt sees its way
into the engine. In addition, comparing a stock filter assembly to
aftermarket, in the latter you also typically have an exposed filter
element sandwiched between an upper and lower plate with a much
greater
surface area exposed to that dirt than a stock style snorkel air
filter
would have.
If you do find your engine is starving for air at higher rpms and
you really need more volume then why not just increase the surface
area
of the stock style air filter? i.e. use a bigger filter. If you
really want to increase HP then provide denser air i.e. colder or
higher pressure. The moral of the story is throw the K&N filter away
and get a blower/intercooler, but wait then you might need a high
flow
air filter to pass all that extra air...
Personally I just have to drive over to CA and the elevation
difference
alone will give me 15% more power for the cost of a tank of gas! And
yes it is very noticeable from my unbiased and highly tuned seat of
the
pants, relaying to my Adrenalin meter!
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso [301]<[1]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf of
Charles McCall [302]<[2]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 7:06 AM
To: Detomaso Email List
Subject: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several
people
on
the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
good
idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
oiled,
it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
gained
by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
truck
with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
indicate
the
comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but
I
don't
believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data. Thanks!
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[[303]3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[webicon_gray.png]
[4][304]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. [305]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
2. [306]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
3. [307]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. [308]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 15:12:10 -0800
From: Asa Jay Laughton [309]<asajay at asajay.com>
To: Mark Skwarek [310]<ehpantera at yahoo.com>
Cc: [311]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com, Dan Courtney
[312]<dan at excaliburre.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
Message-ID: [313]<1w4ouinrb0gn7clrvbq953ik.1479596467945 at email.android.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Dan's been there and done that and we'd like to see him do it again in the 150 c
lass. What he forgets is that POCA doesn't do the track event. It used to be P
CNC for years and it just happened to be convenient that a track was nearby and
something could be set up. That's become more and more difficult not to mention
very expensive. Most the other Pantera owners/racers don't typically complain
about it, they just don't come if their primary focus is racing.
I think it would be great to have a track event, but I'm not going to complain a
fter seeing all the trouble it's taken people over the last few years. The Fun
Rally was first and foremost an event for owners to get together and socialize,
not race. The track event came along later and could draw more owners, but in r
eality, some of them didn't attend the Fun Rally anyway, they just raced.
I think it's great Ed has done as much as he has, and its apparent he's still wo
rking on some things. If owners would like to race, I'm sure an experienced per
son might step up and help. I can think of at least two people who could help (
me not being one of them) who have done so in the past.
Asa
Sent using Jedi Mind Tricks
mark skwarek via DeTomaso [314]<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Dan,
How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a?parade lap.
Mark
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney [315]<dan at excaliburre.co
m> wrote:
? Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
? because of the ability to race on a world class track.
? Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
? alienating the racers in the Club.
? Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having a
? Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
? Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a race
? car for a 1,000 mile trip.
? I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
? the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
? Pantera racing tradition.
? As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
? out.
? Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
? feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
? priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
? Dan Courtney
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[316]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[317]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the li
nks above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message p
osted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant
the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of lis
t messages.
Dan,
How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a parade lap.
Mark
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney
[318]<dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
because of the ability to race on a world class track.
Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
alienating the racers in the Club.
Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having
a
Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
race
car for a 1,000 mile trip.
I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
Pantera racing tradition.
As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
out.
Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
Dan Courtney
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[[319]1]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[2][320]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
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2. [322]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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-------------- next part --------------
Dan's been there and done that and we'd like to see him do it again in
the 150 class. What he forgets is that POCA doesn't do the track
event. It used to be PCNC for years and it just happened to be
convenient that a track was nearby and something could be set up.
That's become more and more difficult not to mention very expensive.
Most the other Pantera owners/racers don't typically complain about it,
they just don't come if their primary focus is racing.
I think it would be great to have a track event, but I'm not going to
complain after seeing all the trouble it's taken people over the last
few years. The Fun Rally was first and foremost an event for owners to
get together and socialize, not race. The track event came along later
and could draw more owners, but in reality, some of them didn't attend
the Fun Rally anyway, they just raced.
I think it's great Ed has done as much as he has, and its apparent he's
still working on some things. If owners would like to race, I'm sure
an experienced person might step up and help. I can think of at least
two people who could help (me not being one of them) who have done so
in the past.
Asa
Sent using Jedi Mind Tricks
mark skwarek via DeTomaso [325]<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Dan,
How about coming out to Silver State. Better than aA parade lap.
Mark
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney
[326]<dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
A Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
A because of the ability to race on a world class track.
A Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
A alienating the racers in the Club.
A Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having
a
A Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
A Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
race
A car for a 1,000 mile trip.
A I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking
like
A the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
A Pantera racing tradition.
A As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged
Warrior,
A out.
A Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
A feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
A priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
A Dan Courtney
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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[327]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[328]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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Dan,
How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a parade lap.
Mark
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney
[329]<dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas
primarily
because of the ability to race on a world class track.
Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring
and
alienating the racers in the Club.
Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in
having
a
Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
race
car for a 1,000 mile trip.
I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking
like
the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
Pantera racing tradition.
As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged
Warrior,
out.
Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I
strongly
feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
Dan Courtney
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[[330]1]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[2][331]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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References
1. [332]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
2. [333]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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[334]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[335]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 15:27:34 -0800
From: "Dan Courtney" [336]<dan at excaliburre.com>
To: "Asa Jay Laughton" [337]<asajay at asajay.com>, "Mark Skwarek"
[338]<ehpantera at yahoo.com>
Cc: [339]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
Message-ID: <79190697B4AF4A7EAD0EB00189580E20 at HPLaptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I don?t know what constraints were encountered in this year?s site selection but
I really think securing a site with an available road track should be a prerequ
isite.
The racing was, in my opinion and experience, one, if not the highlight of the F
un Rally and motivated me to build a Pantera track car.
Bench and internet racing is fine, but the Club needs to get back to the real ac
tion.
The racing is great for the vendors and for all of us who put so much time, effo
rt and energy into making these ancient cars go faster and faster.
As for Silver State, after five of those, including the 145 mph bracket my next
class would be Super Sport.
I?m not a fan of GPS ?racing?, so I?m only really interested in the Unlimited br
acket. I wonder if mAD dAWG?S offer to pay my registration still stands?
DanTomaso Courtney
From: Asa Jay Laughton
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 3:12 PM
To: Mark Skwarek
Cc: Dan Courtney ; [340]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
Dan's been there and done that and we'd like to see him do it again in the 150 c
lass. What he forgets is that POCA doesn't do the track event. It used to be P
CNC for years and it just happened to be convenient that a track was nearby and
something could be set up. That's become more and more difficult not to mention
very expensive. Most the other Pantera owners/racers don't typically complain
about it, they just don't come if their primary focus is racing.
I think it would be great to have a track event, but I'm not going to complain a
fter seeing all the trouble it's taken people over the last few years. The Fun
Rally was first and foremost an event for owners to get together and socialize,
not race. The track event came along later and could draw more owners, but in r
eality, some of them didn't attend the Fun Rally anyway, they just raced.
I think it's great Ed has done as much as he has, and its apparent he's still wo
rking on some things. If owners would like to race, I'm sure an experienced per
son might step up and help. I can think of at least two people who could help (
me not being one of them) who have done so in the past.
Asa
Sent using Jedi Mind Tricks
mark skwarek via DeTomaso [341]<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Dan,
How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a parade lap.
Mark
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney [342]<dan at excaliburre.c
om> wrote:
Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
because of the ability to race on a world class track.
Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
alienating the racers in the Club.
Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having a
Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a race
car for a 1,000 mile trip.
I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
Pantera racing tradition.
As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
out.
Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
Dan Courtney
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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[343]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[344]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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osted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant
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t messages.
Dan,
How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a parade lap.
Mark
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney
[345]<dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
because of the ability to race on a world class track.
Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
alienating the racers in the Club.
Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having
a
Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
race
car for a 1,000 mile trip.
I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
Pantera racing tradition.
As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
out.
Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
Dan Courtney
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[[346]1]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[2][347]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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References
1. [348]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
2. [349]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
_______________________________________________
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[350]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[351]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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nks above.
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t messages.
-------------- next part --------------
I donat know what constraints were encountered in this yearas site
selection but I really think securing a site with an available road
track should be a prerequisite.
The racing was, in my opinion and experience, one, if not the highlight
of the Fun Rally and motivated me to build a Pantera track car.
Bench and internet racing is fine, but the Club needs to get back to
the real action.
The racing is great for the vendors and for all of us who put so much
time, effort and energy into making these ancient cars go faster and
faster.
As for Silver State, after five of those, including the 145 mph bracket
my next class would be Super Sport.
Iam not a fan of GPS aracinga, so Iam only really interested in the
Unlimited bracket. I wonder if mAD dAWGaS offer to pay my registration
still stands?
DanTomaso Courtney
From: Asa Jay Laughton
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 3:12 PM
To: Mark Skwarek
Cc: Dan Courtney ; [352]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
Dan's been there and done that and we'd like to see him do it again in
the 150 class. What he forgets is that POCA doesn't do the track
event. It used to be PCNC for years and it just happened to be
convenient that a track was nearby and something could be set up.
That's become more and more difficult not to mention very expensive.
Most the other Pantera owners/racers don't typically complain about it,
they just don't come if their primary focus is racing.
I think it would be great to have a track event, but I'm not going to
complain after seeing all the trouble it's taken people over the last
few years. The Fun Rally was first and foremost an event for owners to
get together and socialize, not race. The track event came along later
and could draw more owners, but in reality, some of them didn't attend
the Fun Rally anyway, they just raced.
I think it's great Ed has done as much as he has, and its apparent he's
still working on some things. If owners would like to race, I'm sure
an experienced person might step up and help. I can think of at least
two people who could help (me not being one of them) who have done so
in the past.
Asa
Sent using Jedi Mind Tricks
mark skwarek via DeTomaso [353]<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Dan,
How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a parade lap.
Mark
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney
[354]<dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
because of the ability to race on a world class track.
Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
alienating the racers in the Club.
Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having
a
Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
race
car for a 1,000 mile trip.
I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
Pantera racing tradition.
As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
out.
Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
Dan Courtney
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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[355]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[356]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
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or approve the archiving of list messages.
Dan,
How about coming out to Silver State. Better than a parade lap.
Mark
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:49 PM, Dan Courtney
[357]<dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas
primarily
because of the ability to race on a world class track.
Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring
and
alienating the racers in the Club.
Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in
having
a
Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
race
car for a 1,000 mile trip.
I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking
like
the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
Pantera racing tradition.
As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged
Warrior,
out.
Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I
strongly
feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
Dan Courtney
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[[358]1]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[2][359]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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References
1. [360]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
2. [361]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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[362]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 16:55:27 -0700
From: Ed Mendez [364]<edducati at mac.com>
To: Dan Courtney [365]<dan at excaliburre.com>
Cc: [366]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
Message-ID: [367]<90EA64B4-A702-407D-AF01-8CACB457E12D at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
You can race, but you'll have to get with the SCCA in order to join their event
that same weekend. SCCA race licensing and compliance. Its financially infeasibl
e and not prudent for the majority of membership to subsidize a track event bene
fiting a very small portion of the membership. Track costs and insurance makes i
t cost prohibitive. Individual racers can get with the SCCA and race that weeken
d.
This will be a great event not to be missed.
Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 19, 2016, at 14:49, Dan Courtney [368]<dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
because of the ability to race on a world class track.
Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
alienating the racers in the Club.
Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having a
Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a race
car for a 1,000 mile trip.
I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
Pantera racing tradition.
As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
out.
Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
Dan Courtney
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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[369]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[370]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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t messages.
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 09:51:37 +0000
From: Roland [371]<willibillie at live.de>
To: [372]"detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
[373]<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
Message-ID:
[374]<VI1PR0101MB1758BCF4E9CEAC50CD917A74B3B20 at VI1PR0101MB1758.eurprd01.
prod.exchangelabs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
It doesn't say anything about how much it filters. No filter will also
flow way more, but what is the sense of a filter?? If your paper filter
is big enough for your car, what sense does it make to have more air flow?
Keep the K&N and make your engine builder happy !
Am 19.11.2016 um 20:19 schrieb Charles McCall:
Thanks, Dan. Very interesting reading!
May be found here:
[375]https://books.google.es/books?id=OAw1GDB0kN0C&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=o
nepage&q&f=false
Basically says that K&N works, it flows nearly double the best of the paper filt
ers. Even a dirty K&N flows more than a new paper filter.
Also says that cold air is hugely important to dyno numbers and 1/4 mile times..
Worth a few minutes reading
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [[376]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com] On Behalf
Of Daniel C Jones
Sent: s?bado, 19 de noviembre de 2016 19:08
Cc: Detomaso Email List
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Data for K&N filters
See Chapter 2 of David Vizard's "How to Build Horsepower". Google's book
preview shows this chapter.
Dan Jones
On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Charles McCall [377]<charlesmccall at gmail.com>
wrote:
After cleaning my filter last week, I got to wondering. Several people
on the list have heard anecdotal evidence that the K&N's aren't such a
good idea. Comments received include:
"My friend's mechanic said to get rid of it..."
"If it's properly oiled, it's too restrictive. If it isn't properly
oiled, it doesn't filter properly and lets junk through"
Is anyone aware of a dyno test to indicate if any power is actually
gained by using one? Or lost?
On the K&N webpage they have a guy who drove a million miles in his
truck with a K&N, but are there scientific studies with controls to
indicate the comparative engine wear between filter types?
Maybe it's a byproduct of Facebook during the election campaign, but I
don't believe anything I read without seeing unbiased data... Thanks!
_______________________________________________
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[380]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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t messages.
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 06:01:09 -0600
From: Jeff Detrich [382]<jjdetrich at gmail.com>
To: Ed Mendez [383]<edducati at mac.com>
Cc: [384]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com, Dan Courtney
[385]<dan at excaliburre.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
Message-ID:
[386]<CANX29aV6MwmUfhxewupcT6uhYjMTONVNSrGo90oSK3fL+iF67Q at mail.gmail.com
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
The racing event was also important for a number of members who went and
watched the racing and enjoyed walking the pit area. The Lone Star Fun
Rally was a good example of coordinating the fun rally dates with a track
event run by a third party with less onerous requirements than getting an
SCCA license.
Jeff
6559
On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Ed Mendez [387]<edducati at mac.com> wrote:
You can race, but you'll have to get with the SCCA in order to join their
event that same weekend. SCCA race licensing and compliance. Its
financially infeasible and not prudent for the majority of membership to
subsidize a track event benefiting a very small portion of the membership.
Track costs and insurance makes it cost prohibitive. Individual racers can
get with the SCCA and race that weekend.
This will be a great event not to be missed.
Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 19, 2016, at 14:49, Dan Courtney [388]<dan at excaliburre.com> wrote:
Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas primarily
because of the ability to race on a world class track.
Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring and
alienating the racers in the Club.
Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in having a
Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a race
car for a 1,000 mile trip.
I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking like
the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
Pantera racing tradition.
As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged Warrior,
out.
Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I strongly
feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
Dan Courtney
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-------------- next part --------------
The racing event was also important for a number of members who went
and watched the racing and enjoyed walking the pit area. The Lone Star
FunA
Rally was a good example of coordinating the fun rally dates with a
track event run by a third party with less onerous requirements than
getting an SCCA license.
Jeff
6559
On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Ed Mendez [393]<[1]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
You can race, but you'll have to get with the SCCA in order to join
their event that same weekend. SCCA race licensing and compliance.
Its financially infeasible and not prudent for the majority of
membership to subsidize a track event benefiting a very small
portion of the membership. Track costs and insurance makes it cost
prohibitive. Individual racers can get with the SCCA and race that
weekend.
This will be a great event not to be missed.
Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> On Nov 19, 2016, at 14:49, Dan Courtney [394]<[2]dan at excaliburre.com>
wrote:
>
>A A Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas
primarily
>A A because of the ability to race on a world class track.
>A A Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring
and
>A A alienating the racers in the Club.
>A A Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in
having a
>A A Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
>A A Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
race
>A A car for a 1,000 mile trip.
>A A I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking
like
>A A the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
>A A Pantera racing tradition.
>A A As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged
Warrior,
>A A out.
>A A Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I
strongly
>A A feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
>A A priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
>
>A A Dan Courtney
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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2. [400]mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
3. [401]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. [402]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
5. [403]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 06:04:11 -0600
From: Jeff Detrich [405]<jjdetrich at gmail.com>
To: Ed Mendez [406]<edducati at mac.com>
Cc: [407]"DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
[408]<DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Inland Empire California Highwa
y
Panteras [409]<poca1 at aol.com>, San Diego Panteras
[410]<sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
Message-ID:
[411]<CANX29aW7i2Bm=aCk_KxOH7C8Fp_QOHh15KydwqsDs0=YOu9gaw at mail.gmail.com
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I would do the same. It would be a shame not to after coming all that way.
Jeff - from the hinterlands
6559
On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Ed Mendez [412]<edducati at mac.com> wrote:
I will talk to them on Monday but I am sure it would be no big deal I am
thinking about staying there for the whole week.
Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:09, Jeff Detrich [413]<jjdetrich at gmail.com> wrote:
Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself so
we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those of
us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
Jeff
6659
On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez [414]<edducati at mac.com> wrote:
Thank you Dennis,
I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom web
link where it will take you right to the area to register for your room
at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will send
out an email to everyone once that happens.
Thanks Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez [415]<[1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
Nice Flyer Ed!
This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
Dennis
On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez [416]<[2]edducati at mac.com>
wrote:
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
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2. [420]mailto:edducati at mac.com
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4. [422]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
_______________________________________________
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-------------- next part --------------
I would do the same. It would be a shame not to after coming all that
way.
Jeff - from the hinterlands
6559
On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Ed Mendez [425]<[1]edducati at mac.com>
wrote:
I will talk to them on Monday but I am sure it would be no big deal I
am thinking about staying there for the whole week.A
Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:09, Jeff Detrich [426]<[2]jjdetrich at gmail.com> wrote:
Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself
so we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for
those of us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
Jeff
6659
On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez [427]<[3]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
A A Thank you Dennis,
A A I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a
custom web
A A link where it will take you right to the area to register for
your room
A A at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I
will send
A A out an email to everyone once that happens.
A A Thanks Ed
A A Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
A A On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez
[428]<[1][4]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
A A wrote:
A A Nice Flyer Ed!
A A This works well for me since we won't be able to attend
Concorso
A A Italiano weekend next year.A Any Idea when the hotel will
accept
A A reservations?A Any idea what the room rates will be?
A A Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
A A Dennis
A A On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez
[429]<[2][5]edducati at mac.com>
A A wrote:
A A Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
A A _______________________________________________
A A Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A [3][[430]6]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
A A [4][7][431]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
A A To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
A A use the links above.
A A Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward any
A A message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the
A A list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
A A or approve the archiving of list messages.
References
A A 1. mailto:[[432]8]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
A A 2. mailto:[[433]9]edducati at mac.com
A A 3. mailto:[[434]10]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
A A 4. [11][435]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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2. [439]mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
3. [440]mailto:edducati at mac.com
4. [441]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
5. [442]mailto:edducati at mac.com
6. [443]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7. [444]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
8. [445]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
9. [446]mailto:edducati at mac.com
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------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 09:13:34 -0700
From: Ed Mendez [451]<edducati at mac.com>
To: Julian Kift [452]<julian_kift at hotmail.com>
Cc: [453]"DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
[454]<DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Inland Empire California Highwa
y
Panteras [455]<poca1 at aol.com>, San Diego Panteras
[456]<sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
Message-ID: [457]<C3B905C5-08BF-4D64-B803-6B3D0E8B00CB at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This hotel is $899 per night with a minimum of a 4 night stay during Monterey ca
r week in August. That is $3600 just for the hotel.
Laguna Seca is by invitation only during car week as well. The cost is astronomi
cal.
I have gotten the parade laps at Laguna Seca for our event at no cost.
Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:15, Julian Kift [458]<julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
Yeah if you could stay over until the August Monterey week when all the REAL car
action happens that would be great!
Julian
From: DeTomaso [459]<detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Jeff
Detrich [460]<jjdetrich at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:09 AM
To: Ed Mendez
Cc: [461]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Inland Empire California Highway Pant
eras; San Diego Panteras
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself so
we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those of
us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
Jeff
6659
On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez [462]<edducati at mac.com> wrote:
Thank you Dennis,
I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom web
link where it will take you right to the area to register for your room
at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will send
out an email to everyone once that happens.
Thanks Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez [463]<[1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
Nice Flyer Ed!
This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
Dennis
On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez [464]<[2]edducati at mac.com>
wrote:
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
_______________________________________________
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Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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References
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2. [468]mailto:edducati at mac.com
3. [469]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. [470]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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-------------- next part --------------
This hotel is $899 per night with a minimum of a 4 night stay during
Monterey car week in August. That is $3600 just for the hotel.
Laguna Seca is by invitation only during car week as well. The cost is
astronomical.
I have gotten the parade laps at Laguna Seca for our event at no cost.
Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:15, Julian Kift [473]<[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
wrote:
Yeah if you could stay over until the August Monterey week when all the
REAL car action happens that would be great!
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso [474]<[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of Jeff Detrich [475]<[3]jjdetrich at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:09 AM
To: Ed Mendez
Cc: [[476]4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Inland Empire California
Highway Panteras; San Diego Panteras
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself
so
we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those
of
us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
Jeff
6659
On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez [477]<[5]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
> Thank you Dennis,
>
> I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom
web
> link where it will take you right to the area to register for your
room
> at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will
send
> out an email to everyone once that happens.
>
> Thanks Ed
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>
> On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez
[478]<[1][6]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> Nice Flyer Ed!
> This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
> Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
> reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
> Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
> Dennis
> On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez
[479]<[2][7]edducati at mac.com>
> wrote:
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [3][[480]8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [4][9][481]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
> 1. [10][482]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
> 2. [11][483]mailto:edducati at mac.com
> 3. [12][484]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 4. [13][485]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
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> the archiving of list messages.
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References
1. [488]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
2. [489]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
3. [490]mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
4. [491]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
5. [492]mailto:edducati at mac.com
6. [493]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
7. [494]mailto:edducati at mac.com
8. [495]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
9. [496]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
10. [497]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
11. [498]mailto:edducati at mac.com
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------------------------------
Message: 23
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 09:27:49 -0700
From: Rich Hoppe [503]<richbhoppe at gmail.com>
To: Jeff Detrich [504]<jjdetrich at gmail.com>
Cc: [505]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com, Dan Courtney
[506]<dan at excaliburre.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] No racing again at the 2017 POCA Fun Rally?
Message-ID:
[507]<CAFi5N0Hs0Bij_ttLWc1CJ7ty4BoPZgXvZ0FitcaGLEBJPfiCUg at mail.gmail.com
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I would also be interested in a track event.
I realize it will not happen in 2017.
I am not complaining but I want to respond to the statement that track
events should not be paid by POCA.
I disagree with that.
It is clearly a Pantera car function for people that want to drive with
other pantera cars at speed on the track.
I realize not everyone is interested in driving or watching the track
events.
But for argument sake we could also use anything to separate the
differences of owners.
I like drinking beer but a person could say why do we spend money on open
bars when not everyone uses the free stuff.
We could go on and on about how this function is only for a few or that is
only for a few etc.
I get annoyed that the club had over $100k in the acct but did not have
money for a $5k co sponsor track function.
It is small thinking.
Rich Hoppe
On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 5:01 AM, Jeff Detrich [508]<jjdetrich at gmail.com> wrote:
The racing event was also important for a number of members who went
and watched the racing and enjoyed walking the pit area. The Lone Star
FunA
Rally was a good example of coordinating the fun rally dates with a
track event run by a third party with less onerous requirements than
getting an SCCA license.
Jeff
6559
On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Ed Mendez [509]<[1]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
You can race, but you'll have to get with the SCCA in order to join
their event that same weekend. SCCA race licensing and compliance.
Its financially infeasible and not prudent for the majority of
membership to subsidize a track event benefiting a very small
portion of the membership. Track costs and insurance makes it cost
prohibitive. Individual racers can get with the SCCA and race that
weekend.
This will be a great event not to be missed.
Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> On Nov 19, 2016, at 14:49, Dan Courtney [510]<[2]dan at excaliburre.com>
wrote:
>
>A A Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but thatas
primarily
>A A because of the ability to race on a world class track.
>A A Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again ignoring
and
>A A alienating the racers in the Club.
>A A Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the point in
having a
>A A Pantera track car if you canat compete against other Panteras?
>A A Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth trailering a
race
>A A car for a 1,000 mile trip.
>A A I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas looking
like
>A A the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or about the
>A A Pantera racing tradition.
>A A As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The Winged
Warrior,
>A A out.
>A A Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but I
strongly
>A A feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should be a top
>A A priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
>
>A A Dan Courtney
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [[511]3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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>
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or approve the archiving of list messages.
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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References
1. [515]mailto:edducati at mac.com
2. [516]mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
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I would also be interested in a track event.
I realize it will not happen in 2017.
I am not complaining but I want to respond to the statement that track
events should not be paid by POCA.
I disagree with that.
It is clearly a Pantera car function for people that want to drive with
other pantera cars at speed on the track.
I realize not everyone is interested in driving or watching the track
events.
But for argument sake we could also use anything to separate the
differences of owners.
I like drinking beer but a person could say why do we spend money on
open bars when not everyone uses the free stuff.
We could go on and on about how this function is only for a few or that
is only for a few etc.
I get annoyed that the club had over $100k in the acct but did not have
money for a $5k co sponsor track function.
It is small thinking.
Rich Hoppe
On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 5:01 AM, Jeff Detrich [523]<[1]jjdetrich at gmail.com>
wrote:
A A The racing event was also important for a number of members who
went
A A and watched the racing and enjoyed walking the pit area. The
Lone Star
A A FunA
A A Rally was a good example of coordinating the fun rally dates
with a
A A track event run by a third party with less onerous requirements
than
A A getting an SCCA license.
A A Jeff
A A 6559
A A On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Ed Mendez
[524]<[1][2]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
A A A You can race, but you'll have to get with the SCCA in order
to join
A A A their event that same weekend. SCCA race licensing and
compliance.
A A A Its financially infeasible and not prudent for the majority
of
A A A membership to subsidize a track event benefiting a very
small
A A A portion of the membership. Track costs and insurance makes
it cost
A A A prohibitive. Individual racers can get with the SCCA and
race that
A A A weekend.
A A A This will be a great event not to be missed.
A A A Ed
A A A Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
A A > On Nov 19, 2016, at 14:49, Dan Courtney
[525]<[2][3]dan at excaliburre.com>
A A wrote:
A A >
A A >AA A Ed, Monterey is a great place for a car event, but
thatas
A A primarily
A A >AA A because of the ability to race on a world class track.
A A >AA A Iam really, really disappointed that POCA is once again
ignoring
A A and
A A >AA A alienating the racers in the Club.
A A >AA A Two years in a row without a track event? Whatas the
point in
A A having a
A A >AA A Pantera track car if you canat compete against other
Panteras?
A A >AA A Parade laps are nice for daily drivers but not worth
trailering a
A A race
A A >AA A car for a 1,000 mile trip.
A A >AA A I thought last year was a one time foul-up, but now itas
looking
A A like
A A >AA A the Club doesnat care about itas racing contingency, or
about the
A A >AA A Pantera racing tradition.
A A >AA A As of this moment Iad say count me, The Beast and The
Winged
A A Warrior,
A A >AA A out.
A A >AA A Maybe Iall get over this by Spring, if anyone cares, but
I
A A strongly
A A >AA A feel that the ability to host a Pantera track day should
be a top
A A >AA A priority in selecting a venue for any Fun Rally.
A A >
A A >AA A Dan Courtney
A A > _______________________________________________
A A >
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------------------------------
Message: 24
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 16:40:39 +0000
From: Julian Kift [553]<julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: Ed Mendez [554]<edducati at mac.com>
Cc: [555]"DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
[556]<DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com>, Inland Empire California Highwa
y
Panteras [557]<poca1 at aol.com>, San Diego Panteras
[558]<sdpanteras at googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
Message-ID:
[559]<DM5PR18MB1323C7C81098EB141A6F6B0095B20 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod
.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Yes Monterey car week is expensive, this hotel more so as it hosts the Mecum auc
tion, but you can still attend Monterey during August car week at reasonable cos
t, as many of the Pantera owners who attend Concorso Italiano and the Historic R
acing will attest.
Good on you for taking this on, providing a new and alternate venue for Pantera
owners to gather at a hotel in an excellent setting on the golf course and with
the added novelty of putting around a very historic track at no cost, of which I
am sure many will enjoy.
What is the hotel rate for the Fun Rally, I must have missed that email?
The dilemma for me personally is that Monterey represents all that August car we
ek offers, a hectic week of car-centric sensory overload, so why do it any other
time. Baja Cantina is not Baja Cantina without an eclectic mix of cars coming a
nd going, music and beer on the lawn. Any other time it's, well just a Mexican C
antina. 17 mile drive is a 17 mile low speed congested traffic opportunity for P
antera's to parade along and I'm sure the folks in retirement homes along the s
eafront will get a kick out of sitting on the front porch, blankets over knees a
nd watching all those Pantera's pass by, shame not many of them will be able to
actually hear them...
Julian
________________________________
From: Ed Mendez [560]<edducati at mac.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 8:13 AM
To: Julian Kift
Cc: Jeff Detrich; [561]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Inland Empire Californi
a Highway Panteras; San Diego Panteras
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
This hotel is $899 per night with a minimum of a 4 night stay during Monterey ca
r week in August. That is $3600 just for the hotel.
Laguna Seca is by invitation only during car week as well. The cost is astronomi
cal.
I have gotten the parade laps at Laguna Seca for our event at no cost.
Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:15, Julian Kift <[562]julian_kift at hotmail.com[563]<mailto
:julian_kift at hotmail.com>> wrote:
Yeah if you could stay over until the August Monterey week when all the REAL car
action happens that would be great!
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <[564]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com[565]<mailto:detoma
so-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>> on behalf of Jeff Detrich <[566]jjdetrich at g
mail.com[567]<mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com>>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:09 AM
To: Ed Mendez
Cc: [568]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com[569]<mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasoli
st.com>; Inland Empire California Highway Panteras; San Diego Panteras
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself so
we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those of
us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
Jeff
6659
On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez <[570]edducati at mac.com[571]<mailto:ed
ducati at mac.com>> wrote:
Thank you Dennis,
I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom web
link where it will take you right to the area to register for your room
at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will send
out an email to everyone once that happens.
Thanks Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez <[[572]1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com[573]<m
ailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>>
wrote:
Nice Flyer Ed!
This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
Dennis
On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez <[[574]2]edducati at mac.com[575
]<mailto:edducati at mac.com>>
wrote:
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
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-------------- next part --------------
Yes Monterey car week is expensive, this hotel more so as it hosts the
Mecum auction, but you can still attend Monterey during August car week
at reasonable cost, as many of the Pantera owners who attend Concorso
Italiano and the Historic Racing will attest.
Good on you for taking this on, providing a new and alternate venue for
Pantera owners to gather at a hotel in an excellent setting on the golf
course and with the added novelty of putting around a very historic
track at no cost, of which I am sure many will enjoy.
What is the hotel rate for the Fun Rally, I must have missed that
email?
The dilemma for me personally is that Monterey represents all that
August car week offers, a hectic week of car-centric sensory overload,
so why do it any other time. Baja Cantina is not Baja Cantina without
an eclectic mix of cars coming and going, music and beer on the lawn.
Any other time it's, well just a Mexican Cantina. 17 mile drive is a 17
mile low speed congested traffic opportunity for Pantera's to parade
along and I'm sure the folks in retirement homes along the seafront
will get a kick out of sitting on the front porch, blankets over knees
and watching all those Pantera's pass by, shame not many of them will
be able to actually hear them...
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: Ed Mendez [586]<edducati at mac.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 8:13 AM
To: Julian Kift
Cc: Jeff Detrich; [587]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Inland Empire
California Highway Panteras; San Diego Panteras
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
This hotel is $899 per night with a minimum of a 4 night stay during
Monterey car week in August. That is $3600 just for the hotel.
Laguna Seca is by invitation only during car week as well. The cost is
astronomical.
I have gotten the parade laps at Laguna Seca for our event at no cost.
Ed
Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:15, Julian Kift [588]<[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
wrote:
Yeah if you could stay over until the August Monterey week when all the
REAL car action happens that would be great!
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso [589]<[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of Jeff Detrich [590]<[3]jjdetrich at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:09 AM
To: Ed Mendez
Cc: [[591]4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com; Inland Empire California
Highway Panteras; San Diego Panteras
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 2017 POCA Fun Rally
Will the Hotel extend the discounted rates longer than the Rally itself
so
we can make a longer vacation out of it? It's a long way away for those
of
us east of the Rockies so staying on afterward would be nice.
Jeff
6659
On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Ed Mendez [592]<[5]edducati at mac.com> wrote:
> Thank you Dennis,
>
> I just talked to the hotel today they are going to set up a custom
web
> link where it will take you right to the area to register for your
room
> at the discounted rates. This will be in about a week and I will
send
> out an email to everyone once that happens.
>
> Thanks Ed
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
>
> On Nov 18, 2016, at 18:41, Dennis Valdez
[593]<[1][6]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> Nice Flyer Ed!
> This works well for me since we won't be able to attend Concorso
> Italiano weekend next year. Any Idea when the hotel will accept
> reservations? Any idea what the room rates will be?
> Thanks for your hard work setting this up!
> Dennis
> On Friday, November 18, 2016 7:47 AM, Ed Mendez
[594]<[2][7]edducati at mac.com>
> wrote:
> Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
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etc.)
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>
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> 2. [11][598]mailto:edducati at mac.com
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------------------------------
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------------------------------
End of DeTomaso Digest, Vol 149, Issue 20
*****************************************
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86. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
87. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
88. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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99. http://www.detomasoregistry.org/Members/ProvaMoMemMain.asp
100. http://www.detomasoregistry.org/Members/ProvaMoMemMain.asp
101. http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/11/18/under-30000-exotics-tht-arent-terrible.html
102. http://www.detomasoregistry.org/Members/ProvaMoMemMain.asp
103. mailto:edducati at mac.com
104. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
105. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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109. mailto:4AB4CEA1-A7B6-4B57-851C-8D2094DA8827 at mac.com
110. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
111. mailto:edducati at mac.com
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113. mailto:[2]edducati at mac.com
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123. mailto:[2]edducati at mac.com
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126. mailto:5]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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128. mailto:7]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
129. mailto:8]edducati at mac.com
130. mailto:9]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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132. mailto:11]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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155. mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net
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157. mailto:[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com
158. mailto:3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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165. mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
166. mailto:CAD=EzWVyWUYNiL1hbk82cvOzJp=J8fU7O9CgYNmaoQYTSJt1Ag at mail.gmail.com
167. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
168. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
169. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
170. mailto:[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com
171. mailto:2]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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174. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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176. mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net
177. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
178. mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
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180. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
181. mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net
182. mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
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188. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
189. mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net
190. mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
191. mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net
192. mailto:[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com
193. mailto:[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com
194. mailto:3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
195. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
196. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
197. mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
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201. mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
202. mailto:detomaso at detomasolist.com
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204. http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/20161119/afd7be06/attachment-0001.jpe
205. http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/20161119/afd7be06/attachment-0001.txt
206. mailto:willibillie at live.de
207. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
208. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
209. mailto:VI1PR0101MB1758744BD5490FC3D5E0D262B3B30 at VI1PR0101MB1758.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com
210. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
211. mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net
212. mailto:[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com
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214. mailto:[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com
215. mailto:[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com
216. mailto:3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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225. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
226. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
227. mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net
228. mailto:[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com
229. mailto:[2]detomaso at detomasolist.com
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236. mailto:11]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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238. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
239. mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net
240. mailto:1]charlesmccall at gmail.com
241. mailto:2]detomaso at detomasolist.com
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243. mailto:mailto:3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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250. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
251. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
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255. https://books.google.es/books?id=OAw1GDB0kN0C&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage&q&f=false
256. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
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263. http://www.knfilters.com/filter_facts.htm
264. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
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266. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
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268. http://www.knfilters.com/filter_facts.htm
269. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm
270. https://books.google.es/books?id=OAw1GDB0kN0C&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage&q&f=false
271. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
272. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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274. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
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279. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
280. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
281. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
282. mailto:1]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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365. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
366. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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369. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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373. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
374. mailto:VI1PR0101MB1758BCF4E9CEAC50CD917A74B3B20 at VI1PR0101MB1758.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com
375. https://books.google.es/books?id=OAw1GDB0kN0C&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage&q&f=false
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385. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
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394. mailto:[2]dan at excaliburre.com
395. mailto:3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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410. mailto:sdpanteras at googlegroups.com
411. mailto:CANX29aW7i2Bm=aCk_KxOH7C8Fp_QOHh15KydwqsDs0=YOu9gaw at mail.gmail.com
412. mailto:edducati at mac.com
413. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
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426. mailto:[2]jjdetrich at gmail.com
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429. mailto:[2][5]edducati at mac.com
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432. mailto:8]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
433. mailto:9]edducati at mac.com
434. mailto:10]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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436. mailto:12]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
437. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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457. mailto:C3B905C5-08BF-4D64-B803-6B3D0E8B00CB at mac.com
458. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
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474. mailto:[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
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476. mailto:4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
477. mailto:[5]edducati at mac.com
478. mailto:[1][6]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
479. mailto:[2][7]edducati at mac.com
480. mailto:8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
481. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
482. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
483. mailto:edducati at mac.com
484. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
485. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
486. mailto:14]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
487. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
488. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
489. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
490. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
491. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
492. mailto:edducati at mac.com
493. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
494. mailto:edducati at mac.com
495. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
496. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
497. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
498. mailto:edducati at mac.com
499. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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501. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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503. mailto:richbhoppe at gmail.com
504. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
505. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
506. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
507. mailto:CAFi5N0Hs0Bij_ttLWc1CJ7ty4BoPZgXvZ0FitcaGLEBJPfiCUg at mail.gmail.com
508. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
509. mailto:[1]edducati at mac.com
510. mailto:[2]dan at excaliburre.com
511. mailto:3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
512. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
513. mailto:5]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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523. mailto:[1]jjdetrich at gmail.com
524. mailto:[1][2]edducati at mac.com
525. mailto:[2][3]dan at excaliburre.com
526. mailto:4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
527. http://server.detomasolist/
528. mailto:6]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
529. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
530. mailto:8]edducati at mac.com
531. mailto:9]dan at excaliburre.com
532. mailto:10]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
533. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
534. mailto:12]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
535. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
536. mailto:14]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
537. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
538. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
539. mailto:edducati at mac.com
540. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
541. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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543. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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546. mailto:dan at excaliburre.com
547. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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551. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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553. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
554. mailto:edducati at mac.com
555. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
556. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
557. mailto:poca1 at aol.com
558. mailto:sdpanteras at googlegroups.com
559. mailto:DM5PR18MB1323C7C81098EB141A6F6B0095B20 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
560. mailto:edducati at mac.com
561. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
562. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
563. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
564. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
565. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
566. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
567. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
568. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
569. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
570. mailto:edducati at mac.com
571. mailto:edducati at mac.com
572. mailto:1]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
573. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
574. mailto:2]edducati at mac.com
575. mailto:edducati at mac.com
576. mailto:3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
577. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
578. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
579. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
580. mailto:edducati at mac.com
581. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
582. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
583. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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586. mailto:edducati at mac.com
587. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
588. mailto:[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com
589. mailto:[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
590. mailto:[3]jjdetrich at gmail.com
591. mailto:4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
592. mailto:[5]edducati at mac.com
593. mailto:[1][6]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
594. mailto:[2][7]edducati at mac.com
595. mailto:8]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
596. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
597. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
598. mailto:edducati at mac.com
599. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
600. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
601. mailto:14]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
602. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
603. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
604. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
605. mailto:jjdetrich at gmail.com
606. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
607. mailto:edducati at mac.com
608. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
609. mailto:edducati at mac.com
610. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
611. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
612. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
613. mailto:edducati at mac.com
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