[DeTomaso] Rear Window

Michael Shortt michaelsavga at gmail.com
Fri Mar 18 12:32:24 EDT 2016


simply put a cardboard tube between the camera face and the gauge, and wrap
it with aluminum foil and black gaffers tape.
if the gauges do not have built in lighting, you can insert a single LED
powered by a AA battery towards the gauge face
and a small shield on the camera side.

Michael



On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Stephen <steve at snclocks.com> wrote:

> Cameras are not the problem, it is lighting.  Ambient is flat bright – I
> had an led light shining on the gauges but not bright enough to compensate
> for the sky in the background.  Hopefully the next session will be on a
> cloudy day, or I can run it at night.
>
>
>
> With an engine that dyno’d at 480 hp, I am just not all that concerned
> with power.  I don’t run the car all that hard, and suspect that inlet air
> density will never be an issue.
>
>
>
> I was surprised to see positive pressure in the compartment – won’t
> compensate for much temperature increase (vis-à-vis air density) but does
> raise questions on the impact of a belly pan below the engine – increased
> rear lift?  Now I am totally outside of my knowledge band.
>
>
>
> Stephen Nelson
>
>
>
> SNClocks.com <http://www.snclocks.com/>
>
> Click here to join one of our mailing lists Contact Lists
> <http://fs19.formsite.com/kagforms/form675003155/index.html>
>
> Click here for our new Hammered Dulcimers
> <http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Hammered-Dulcimers/About-Steves-Dulcimers/19824807_4sHGgj#1558377542_LKmkrT7>
>  galleries
>
> Click here for my new blog <http://www.perfectoldman.com/> on finding
> happiness in retirement
>
>
>
> *From:* Michael Shortt [mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, March 18, 2016 8:57 AM
> *To:* Stephen <steve at snclocks.com>
> *Cc:* detomaso at poca.com
> *Subject:* Re: [DeTomaso] Rear Window
>
>
>
> Stephen,
>
>
>
> I would simply borrow, collect, rent a bunch of Go Pros,
>
>
>
> you can sync them with audio cues (clap sticks)
>
> and edit together a control panel video.
>
> if you could do it on a race track, you could also overlay
>
> info from an App like Harry's Race Timer.
>
>
>
> I look forward to seeing your results, your research
>
>
>
> methods seem intense and and very interesting.
>
>
>
> Are you also going to measure engine CFM intake and air temps?
>
>
>
> measure any performance loss, if any?
>
>
>
> Knowing as a racer that cool air is better than war air, will you be
>
>
>
> adding other cold air intakes or simply sucking it from the engine
>
>
>
> area at whatever the amibient temp might be in all conditions?
>
>
>
> Michael Shortt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Stephen <steve at snclocks.com> wrote:
>
>    I've been pondering for quite a while now the idea of putting a piece
>    of glass in the "window" in the deck lid behind the engine in 5332.
>    This would keep the engine from getting wet every time it rains and
>    would also keep from sucking grit and water off the road when the car
>    is running down the road.
>
>
>    Both seem like decent goals.  Oh, and it would also make it more
>    difficult for someone to just reach in and remove 5332's dog-bone air
>    cleaner.  OK - no one has taken it so far.  But, hey, it would be all
>    too easy to remove.
>
>
>    Looking at the opening - it sure looks like the original intent was to
>    put in a window.
>
>
>    I have sent an e-mail to Tom Tjaarda (attached) asking his thoughts.
>    Hopefully he will respond.
>
>
>    In the interim, I put together a set of sensors so I could see what I
>    could learn about conditions in the engine compartment just inches in
>    front of the opening, to the right side of the dog-bone.   The attached
>    photo shows the instrument cluster shot from inside the car.
>
>
>    I'm measuring air velocity through the rear window (vane anemometer)
>
>    Vacuum just in front of the window
>
>    Rotation of the a/c condenser fan (volt meter connected across the
>    motor, which acts as a generator when the fan turns)
>
>
>    Two of the above are fairly straight forward.  The vacuum - not so
>    much.
>
>
>    When one talks about a vacuum, one is usually talking about a vacuum,
>    relative to ambient atmospheric pressure.  So, if a vacuum gauge is
>    hooked up to your intake manifold, it reads the difference in pressure
>    between the atmosphere where the gauge is sitting, and the inside of
>    your manifold, where the hose from the gauge is connected.
>
>
>    So, what does one compare to in a moving car?  The interior of the
>    car?  That is what one would get if one puts a vacuum gauge in the cab
>    and routes the hose to the area in question.  But, what does the
>    pressure (or vacuum) inside the car do with the car moving down the
>    road.  Open the windows, your ears pop, and the pressure changes.  Most
>    of us don't have an external air inlet (at least an intentional one) to
>    the cab except for the windows.
>
>
>    My solution is to use a fairly sensitive pressure gauge (a
>    sphygmomanometer - gauge used to read blood pressure.  It reads in
>    inches of mercury.  FYI, there are roughly 50 inches of mercury per
>    psi).  I have connected the gauge with small-diameter plastic tubing to
>    a 200 ml stainless sample bomb.  I wrapped the bomb in towels and
>    placed in a cooler to minimize temperature changes.  See, the pressure
>    in the bomb will change by roughly .03 psi (1.5 mm Hg) for each 1
>    degree F change in temperature.
>
>
>    I then pressured up the bomb and let it sit overnight to stabilize.  It
>    ended up at 280 mm.  This is my "zero" at the then current barometric
>    pressure.
>
>
>    One has to view the pressure gauge as a delta-pressure device.  It
>    shows the difference in pressure between the bomb (high pressure) and
>    the atmosphere around the gauge.  So, if the reading on the gauge goes
>    up, the differential is increasing, which means the atmospheric
>    pressure is going down.  As in a wee bit of a vacuum around the gauge.
>    Flip side, if the reading on the gauge goes down, well, there is less
>    differential between the 280 mm Hg in the bomb and the atmosphere
>    around the gauge, so the pressure is going up.
>
>
>    OK - that is complex.
>
>
>    While a gauge that can be read down to around 1 mm hg (0.02 psi) is
>    pretty sensitive, I suspect we are talking pretty minimal vacuum
>    levels.  Preliminary testing suggested a reading of 272 mm Hg at 80
>    mph.  The pressure around the gauge went up!
>
>
>    Huh.  A lot to learn here.
>
>
>    I also noted that the volt meter did not show any rotation of the fan
>    on the a/c condenser.  Need to make sure the wiring is ok.  But, note,
>    the meter reads in mV, and, in my earlier testing, it showed voltage if
>    the fan turned at all.
>
>
>    The rubber for the new window shows up today, the window next
>    Wednesday.
>
>
>    My plan is to get a decent video and stills of the test instruments at
>    several speeds.  Then, when the new window is installed, rerun the
>    test.  I suspect the anemometer will still be valuable, since I suspect
>    there will be a lot of turbulence in the air in the engine compartment
>    even with the window in place.
>
>
>    Needless to say, having the window in place will complicate putting the
>    deck-lid back in place.
>
>
>    Stephen Nelson
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Stephen <steve at snclocks.com>
> To: <tjaarda at astranet.it>
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 10:01:30 -0700
> Subject: Pantera Rear Window
>    Good morning Tom.  Whilst I am pretty sure you have no clue who I am,
>    being a member of POCA, I am aware of your contribution to the
>    Pantera.  And I thank you for what you designed.
>
>
>    Being fairly new to these cars (3 years) I am still learning a lot.
>    One thing I have noted is the ability of my car to pick stuff up off
>    the road when I am driving at speed.  I have found 1/4 inch gravel
>    behind the inlet manifold and was amazed to see high water marks on the
>    side of the rocker covers after a couple of hours driving in the rain
>    at 70 mph.  Really quite neat actually, little wave pattern down the
>    sides of the rocker covers.  Should have shot a picture.
>
>
>    None the less, I have queried the POCA forum about the absence of glass
>    in the opening behind the top of the engine.  Folks indicated no one
>    had ever tried installing glass, and some voiced concerns about the
>    cars overheating if there was not lots of air flow past the engine.
>
>
>    So, am writing to see if I can get your thoughts on the lack of a
>    window in the deck lid and would appreciate any wisdom you can impart.
>
>
>    Whilst I have done a number of upgrades to 5332, including making the
>    engine a wee bit stronger, installing the best radiator and fans that I
>    could identify, and getting the a/c so it keeps the car comfortable, I
>    haven't really made any changes in the aerodynamics - like wings or
>    spoilers or front air dams.  I suspect she would be a good test mule
>    for such a window and plan to start my investigation by figuring out
>    pressure (vacuum) levels above the engine at various speeds and also
>    the direction of rotation and relative rpm of the a/c condenser fan
>    (volt meter across the motor).  My thought is to then do the same with
>    a window in place.
>
>
>    Any and all comments would be appreciated.
>
>
>    Stephen Nelson
>
>
>    [1]SNClocks.com
>
>    Click here to join one of our mailing lists [2]Contact Lists
>
>    Click here for our new [3]Hammered Dulcimers galleries
>
>    Click here for [4]my new blog on finding happiness in retirement
>
> References
>
>    1. http://www.snclocks.com/
>    2. http://fs19.formsite.com/kagforms/form675003155/index.html
>    3.
> http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Hammered-Dulcimers/About-Steves-Dulcimers/19824807_4sHGgj#1558377542_LKmkrT7
>    4. http://www.perfectoldman.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
> the links above.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited.  Please reply to the sender that you
> have received this message in error, then delete it.  Thank you
>



-- 







Michael L. Shortt
Savannah, Georgia
www.michaelshortt.com
michael at michaelshortt.com
912-232-9390


This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited.  Please reply to the sender that you
have received this message in error, then delete it.  Thank you
-------------- next part --------------
   simply put a cardboard tube between the camera face and the gauge, and
   wrap it with aluminum foil and black gaffers tape.
   if the gauges do not have built in lighting, you can insert a single
   LED powered by a AA battery towards the gauge face
   and a small shield on the camera side.
   Michael

   On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Stephen <[1]steve at snclocks.com>
   wrote:

   Cameras are not the problem, it is lighting.A  Ambient is flat bright a
   I had an led light shining on the gauges but not bright enough to
   compensate for the sky in the background.A  Hopefully the next session
   will be on a cloudy day, or I can run it at night.A

   A

   With an engine that dynoad at 480 hp, I am just not all that concerned
   with power.A  I donat run the car all that hard, and suspect that inlet
   air density will never be an issue.A

   A

   I was surprised to see positive pressure in the compartment a wonat
   compensate for much temperature increase (vis-A -vis air density) but
   does raise questions on the impact of a belly pan below the engine a
   increased rear lift?A  Now I am totally outside of my knowledge band.

   A

   Stephen Nelson

   A

   [2]SNClocks.com

   Click here to join one of our mailing lists [3]Contact Lists

   Click here for our new [4]Hammered DulcimersA galleries

   Click here for [5]my new blogA on finding happiness in retirement

   A

   From: Michael Shortt [mailto:[6]michaelsavga at gmail.com]
   Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 8:57 AM
   To: Stephen <[7]steve at snclocks.com>
   Cc: [8]detomaso at poca.com
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Rear Window

   A

   Stephen,

   A

   I would simply borrow, collect, rent a bunch of Go Pros,

   A

   you can sync them with audio cues (clap sticks)

   and edit together a control panel video.

   if you could do it on a race track, you could also overlay

   info from an App like Harry's Race Timer.

   A

   I look forward to seeing your results, your research

   A

   methods seem intense and and very interesting.

   A

   Are you also going to measure engine CFM intake and air temps?

   A

   measure any performance loss, if any?

   A

   Knowing as a racer that cool air is better than war air, will you be

   A

   adding other cold air intakes or simply sucking it from the engine

   A

   area at whatever the amibient temp might be in all conditions?

   A

   Michael Shortt

   A

   A

   A

   On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Stephen <[9]steve at snclocks.com>
   wrote:

     A  A I've been pondering for quite a while now the idea of putting a
     piece
     A  A of glass in the "window" in the deck lid behind the engine in
     5332.
     A  A This would keep the engine from getting wet every time it rains
     and
     A  A would also keep from sucking grit and water off the road when
     the car
     A  A is running down the road.
     A  A Both seem like decent goals.A  Oh, and it would also make it
     more
     A  A difficult for someone to just reach in and remove 5332's
     dog-bone air
     A  A cleaner.A  OK - no one has taken it so far.A  But, hey, it
     would be all
     A  A too easy to remove.
     A  A Looking at the opening - it sure looks like the original intent
     was to
     A  A put in a window.
     A  A I have sent an e-mail to Tom Tjaarda (attached) asking his
     thoughts.
     A  A Hopefully he will respond.
     A  A In the interim, I put together a set of sensors so I could see
     what I
     A  A could learn about conditions in the engine compartment just
     inches in
     A  A front of the opening, to the right side of the dog-bone.A
     A The attached
     A  A photo shows the instrument cluster shot from inside the car.
     A  A I'm measuring air velocity through the rear window (vane
     anemometer)
     A  A Vacuum just in front of the window
     A  A Rotation of the a/c condenser fan (volt meter connected across
     the
     A  A motor, which acts as a generator when the fan turns)
     A  A Two of the above are fairly straight forward.A  The vacuum -
     not so
     A  A much.
     A  A When one talks about a vacuum, one is usually talking about a
     vacuum,
     A  A relative to ambient atmospheric pressure.A  So, if a vacuum
     gauge is
     A  A hooked up to your intake manifold, it reads the difference in
     pressure
     A  A between the atmosphere where the gauge is sitting, and the
     inside of
     A  A your manifold, where the hose from the gauge is connected.
     A  A So, what does one compare to in a moving car?A  The interior of
     the
     A  A car?A  That is what one would get if one puts a vacuum gauge in
     the cab
     A  A and routes the hose to the area in question.A  But, what does
     the
     A  A pressure (or vacuum) inside the car do with the car moving down
     the
     A  A road.A  Open the windows, your ears pop, and the pressure
     changes.A  Most
     A  A of us don't have an external air inlet (at least an intentional
     one) to
     A  A the cab except for the windows.
     A  A My solution is to use a fairly sensitive pressure gauge (a
     A  A sphygmomanometer - gauge used to read blood pressure.A  It
     reads in
     A  A inches of mercury.A  FYI, there are roughly 50 inches of
     mercury per
     A  A psi).A  I have connected the gauge with small-diameter plastic
     tubing to
     A  A a 200 ml stainless sample bomb.A  I wrapped the bomb in towels
     and
     A  A placed in a cooler to minimize temperature changes.A  See, the
     pressure
     A  A in the bomb will change by roughly .03 psi (1.5 mm Hg) for each
     1
     A  A degree F change in temperature.
     A  A I then pressured up the bomb and let it sit overnight to
     stabilize.A  It
     A  A ended up at 280 mm.A  This is my "zero" at the then current
     barometric
     A  A pressure.
     A  A One has to view the pressure gauge as a delta-pressure
     device.A  It
     A  A shows the difference in pressure between the bomb (high
     pressure) and
     A  A the atmosphere around the gauge.A  So, if the reading on the
     gauge goes
     A  A up, the differential is increasing, which means the atmospheric
     A  A pressure is going down.A  As in a wee bit of a vacuum around
     the gauge.
     A  A Flip side, if the reading on the gauge goes down, well, there
     is less
     A  A differential between the 280 mm Hg in the bomb and the
     atmosphere
     A  A around the gauge, so the pressure is going up.
     A  A OK - that is complex.
     A  A While a gauge that can be read down to around 1 mm hg (0.02
     psi) is
     A  A pretty sensitive, I suspect we are talking pretty minimal
     vacuum
     A  A levels.A  Preliminary testing suggested a reading of 272 mm Hg
     at 80
     A  A mph.A  The pressure around the gauge went up!
     A  A Huh.A  A lot to learn here.
     A  A I also noted that the volt meter did not show any rotation of
     the fan
     A  A on the a/c condenser.A  Need to make sure the wiring is ok.A
     But, note,
     A  A the meter reads in mV, and, in my earlier testing, it showed
     voltage if
     A  A the fan turned at all.
     A  A The rubber for the new window shows up today, the window next
     A  A Wednesday.
     A  A My plan is to get a decent video and stills of the test
     instruments at
     A  A several speeds.A  Then, when the new window is installed, rerun
     the
     A  A test.A  I suspect the anemometer will still be valuable, since
     I suspect
     A  A there will be a lot of turbulence in the air in the engine
     compartment
     A  A even with the window in place.
     A  A Needless to say, having the window in place will complicate
     putting the
     A  A deck-lid back in place.
     A  A Stephen Nelson
     ---------- Forwarded message ----------
     From:A Stephen <[10]steve at snclocks.com>
     To:A <[11]tjaarda at astranet.it>
     Cc:A
     Date:A Tue, 15 Mar 2016 10:01:30 -0700
     Subject:A Pantera Rear Window
     A  A Good morning Tom.A  Whilst I am pretty sure you have no clue
     who I am,
     A  A being a member of POCA, I am aware of your contribution to the
     A  A Pantera.A  And I thank you for what you designed.
     A  A Being fairly new to these cars (3 years) I am still learning a
     lot.
     A  A One thing I have noted is the ability of my car to pick stuff
     up off
     A  A the road when I am driving at speed.A  I have found 1/4 inch
     gravel
     A  A behind the inlet manifold and was amazed to see high water
     marks on the
     A  A side of the rocker covers after a couple of hours driving in
     the rain
     A  A at 70 mph.A  Really quite neat actually, little wave pattern
     down the
     A  A sides of the rocker covers.A  Should have shot a picture.
     A  A None the less, I have queried the POCA forum about the absence
     of glass
     A  A in the opening behind the top of the engine.A  Folks indicated
     no one
     A  A had ever tried installing glass, and some voiced concerns about
     the
     A  A cars overheating if there was not lots of air flow past the
     engine.
     A  A So, am writing to see if I can get your thoughts on the lack of
     a
     A  A window in the deck lid and would appreciate any wisdom you can
     impart.
     A  A Whilst I have done a number of upgrades to 5332, including
     making the
     A  A engine a wee bit stronger, installing the best radiator and
     fans that I
     A  A could identify, and getting the a/c so it keeps the car
     comfortable, I
     A  A haven't really made any changes in the aerodynamics - like
     wings or
     A  A spoilers or front air dams.A  I suspect she would be a good
     test mule
     A  A for such a window and plan to start my investigation by
     figuring out
     A  A pressure (vacuum) levels above the engine at various speeds and
     also
     A  A the direction of rotation and relative rpm of the a/c condenser
     fan
     A  A (volt meter across the motor).A  My thought is to then do the
     same with
     A  A a window in place.
     A  A Any and all comments would be appreciated.
     A  A Stephen Nelson
     A  A [1]SNClocks.com
     A  A Click here to join one of our mailing lists [2]Contact Lists
     A  A Click here for our new [3]Hammered Dulcimers galleries
     A  A Click here for [4]my new blog on finding happiness in
     retirement
     References
     A  A 1. [12]http://www.snclocks.com/
     A  A 2.
     [13]http://fs19.formsite.com/kagforms/form675003155/index.html
     A  A 3.
     [14]http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Hammered-Dulcimers/Abo
     ut-Steves-Dulcimers/19824807_4sHGgj#1558377542_LKmkrT7
     A  A 4. [15]http://www.perfectoldman.com/
     _______________________________________________
     Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
     Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
     DeTomaso mailing list
     [16]DeTomaso at poca.com
     [17]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
     etc.) use the links above.

   A

   --

   Michael L. Shortt
   Savannah, Georgia
   [18]www.michaelshortt.com
   [19]michael at michaelshortt.com
   [20]912-232-9390
   A
   This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
   Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
   privileged.A  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
   notified
   that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
   communication is strictly prohibited.A  Please reply to the sender that
   you
   have received this message in error, then delete it.A  Thank you

   --
   Michael L. Shortt
   Savannah, Georgia
   [21]www.michaelshortt.com
   [22]michael at michaelshortt.com
   912-232-9390
   A
   This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
   Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
   privileged.A  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
   notified
   that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
   communication is strictly prohibited.A  Please reply to the sender that
   you
   have received this message in error, then delete it.A  Thank you

References

   1. mailto:steve at snclocks.com
   2. http://www.snclocks.com/
   3. http://fs19.formsite.com/kagforms/form675003155/index.html
   4. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Hammered-Dulcimers/About-Steves-Dulcimers/19824807_4sHGgj#1558377542_LKmkrT7
   5. http://www.perfectoldman.com/
   6. mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com
   7. mailto:steve at snclocks.com
   8. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
   9. mailto:steve at snclocks.com
  10. mailto:steve at snclocks.com
  11. mailto:tjaarda at astranet.it
  12. http://www.snclocks.com/
  13. http://fs19.formsite.com/kagforms/form675003155/index.html
  14. http://www.snclocks.com/TheRestofourWorld/Hammered-Dulcimers/About-Steves-Dulcimers/19824807_4sHGgj#1558377542_LKmkrT7
  15. http://www.perfectoldman.com/
  16. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  17. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  18. http://www.michaelshortt.com/
  19. mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com
  20. tel:912-232-9390
  21. http://www.michaelshortt.com/
  22. mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com


More information about the DeTomaso mailing list