[DeTomaso] High Torque Mini Starters - Need a Recommendation
Daniel C Jones
daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
Tue Jun 21 15:55:30 EDT 2016
> Many could be retrofitted by drilling and tapping the bosses that were
cast in place but not drilled and taped, but I think the early 2V engines
did not even have the cast bosses but the later 2V engines had the cast
Bosses but not the 4 bolt Caps.
To convert a 2 bolt main 351C block to a 4 bolt main, you want to use 4
bolt main caps and align hone afterward. The outer boss on 2 bolt main
caps isn't thick enough to drill for the outboard 3/8" bolts. See the
attached Ford bulletin for details.
> So I know there were running block casting changes.
Yes, there were a number of running casting changes. The second letter of
a casting number like DOAE-J corresponds to the year of the introduction or
revision. The suffix letter after the dash indicates the change level of a
part, regardless of whether it is applied to the casting, the finished part
or the service part.
> The Cleveland facility was state of the art at the time, and that is why
the Australian Blocks were cast heavier because the Aussie¹s could not hold
the precision in casting that the Cleveland folks did.
There were several varieties of Australian 351C blocks (blue, black,
pillow, XE). My Aussie 2 bolt main blue block had no Cleveland Foundry
marks but had a D2AE-CA casting number, the same as one of my 4 bolt main
U.S. blocks and was a thin wall casting with scalloped pan rail just like
the U.S. blocks. Bare, clean, with main caps and a standard bore, that
block weighed in at 172 lbs on a bathroom scale. A 0.030" over U.S. block
weighed in at 170 lbs on the same scale. As I understand it, the U.S.
tooling was shipped to Australia after Ford ceased production in
Cleveland. Prior to that, the Australians imported their 351Cs. My 4 bolt
main XE blocks were heavier and cast thicker but not because they couldn't
hold the precision but because they were cast as race blocks.
Two batches of XE192540 race blocks were cast at the Geelong foundry in
Australia. The first batch of XE blocks were manufactured in 1975 and were
available over the counter, if you knew enough to ask for the right part
number and had the cash. They were listed under the catalog part number
D1ZZ-6010-T and were quite expensive for the time, about $1500 in 1976.
The blocks were completely machined, except for the cylinder bores which
were semi-finished, being rough-bored at 3.990". A number of these blocks
were shipped to Holman and Moody and Gapp and Roush. Holman and Moody used
to list these blocks under the part number D6HM-6010-1.
A second batch was commissioned when Ford (U.S.) decided to get back into
racing in the early 1980's with the formation of the SVO program. These
were manufactured during 1982 and 1983. There were quite a few of the
second batch that didn't meet minimum specs with respect to core shift and
other defects. Some of these blocks were subsequently transferred to the
standard machining production line and were sometimes fitted with two bolt
main bearing caps (depending on when they were discovered to be defective)
for use in a standard production engine in Australia. The blocks that
passed inspection were originally listed in the U.S. SVO catalog under the
part number M-6015-A3 with a list price of around $900.
I've had one of each batch of blocks. Both of my blocks carried the
XE192540 part number but I've seen XE182540 part numbers as well. One had a
5M2 date code (December 2, 1975) and a 1975 in a circle and the other had a
"24C2" date code which would indicate it was cast on 24 March, 1982.
Neither had Siamese bores but they did have thicker, non-contoured main
bearing webs, a thicker non-sculpted block skirt (oil pan rail), beefier
high nodular iron four bolt main caps, and thicker cylinder walls. I
weighed one of my bare XE blocks with caps at 181 lbs. It was bored to
4.030". Oddly, there were SK iron blocks that had Siamese bores but
retained the scalloped pan rails and main webs of the standard production
351C blocks. When I sold Kaase my first XE block (the one he won the 2004
Engine Masters Competition with), he said it wasn't uncommon to have one
cylinder with a thin spot needing a sleeve. He still had an Siamese bore
SK block but wanted my XE block since the EMC dyno pulls started at 2500
RPM and he was afraid he'd spit his custom Sonny Bryant crank out the
bottom if he rattled the mains on the scalloped main SK block.
Dan Jones
On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com>
wrote:
> The earlier 351C 4V blocks typically did not have 4 bolt mains. Many could
> be retrofitted by drilling and tapping the bosses that were cast in place
> but not drilled and taped, but I think the early 2V engines did not even
> have the cast bosses but the later 2V engines had the cast Bosses but not
> the 4 bolt Caps. So I know there were running block casting changes. The
> Cleveland facility was state of the art at the time, and that is why the
> Australian Blocks were cast heavier because the Aussie¹s could not hold
> the precision in casting that the Cleveland folks did. Cleveland folks
> cast them pretty thin walled and light, which is why core shift is such an
> issue. I don¹t know if anyone is on the list that could comment as to what
> and when those casting changes went into effect?
> Larry
>
> On 6/21/16, 9:20 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Daniel C Jones"
> <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
> daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > That's just weird.A ?!? I wonder what the real difference is there.
> > >A A A Any ideas?A Maybe something Dan Jones could speak to?
> > I don't know of any design differences between early and late (D2AE)
> > blocks that would account for hot starting.A FWIW, two of my D2AE 4
> > bolt main blocks had hard starting when warm.A One was due to tight
> > fitting swap headers (351C in 1966 Mustang 2+2 fastback) cooking the
> > full size starter.A The other was in my second 1974 Pantera but that
> > was due to the 30+ year old starter windings.A Both went away with
> > mini starters.
> > Things that would make starting harder would be poor grounds, tighter
> > clearances/heavier oil viscosity and higher cranking compression.A
> > Later short blocks were low compression so would be easier to crank
> > over.
> > Dan Jones
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA
> >Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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> >approve the archiving of list messages.
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
> Many could be retrofitted by drilling and tapping the bosses that
were cast in place but not drilled and taped, but I think the early 2V
engines did not even have the cast bosses but the later 2V engines had
the cast Bosses but not the 4 bolt Caps.
To convert a 2 bolt main 351C block to a 4 bolt main, you want to use 4
bolt main caps and align hone afterward.A The outer boss on 2 bolt
main caps isn't thick enough to drill for the outboard 3/8" bolts.A
See the attached Ford bulletin for details.
> So I know there were running block casting changes.
Yes, there were a number of running casting changes.A The second
letter of a casting number like DOAE-J corresponds to the year of the
introduction or revision.A The suffix letter after the dash indicates
the change level of a part, regardless of whether it is applied to the
casting, the finished part or the service part.
> The Cleveland facility was state of the art at the time, and that is
why the Australian Blocks were cast heavier because the AussieA^1s
could not hold the precision in casting that the Cleveland folks did.
There were several varieties of Australian 351C blocks (blue, black,
pillow, XE).A My Aussie 2 bolt main blue block had no Cleveland
Foundry marks but had a D2AE-CA casting number, the same as one of my 4
bolt main U.S. blocks and was a thin wall casting with scalloped pan
rail just like the U.S. blocks.A Bare, clean, with main caps and a
standard bore, that block weighed in at 172 lbs on a bathroom scale.A
A 0.030" over U.S. block weighed in at 170 lbs on the same scale.A As
I understand it, the U.S. tooling was shipped to Australia after Ford
ceased production in Cleveland.A Prior to that, the Australians
imported their 351Cs.A My 4 bolt main XE blocks were heavier and cast
thicker but not because they couldn't hold the precision but because
they were cast as race blocks.A
Two batches of XE192540 race blocks were cast at the Geelong foundry in
Australia.A The first batch of XE blocks were manufactured in 1975 and
were available over the counter, if you knew enough to ask for the
right part number and had the cash.A They were listed under the
catalog part number D1ZZ-6010-T and were quite expensive for the time,
about $1500 in 1976.A The blocks were completely machined, except for
the cylinder bores which were semi-finished, being rough-bored at
3.990".A A number of these blocks were shipped to Holman and Moody and
Gapp and Roush.A Holman and Moody used to list these blocks under the
part number D6HM-6010-1.
A second batch was commissioned when Ford (U.S.) decided to get back
into racing in the early 1980's with the formation of the SVO
program.A These were manufactured during 1982 and 1983.A There were
quite a few of the second batch that didn't meet minimum specs with
respect to core shift and other defects.A Some of these blocks were
subsequently transferred to the standard machining production line and
were sometimes fitted with two bolt main bearing caps (depending on
when they were discovered to be defective) for use in a standard
production engine in Australia.A The blocks that passed inspection
were originally listed in the U.S. SVO catalog under the part number
M-6015-A3 with a list price of around $900.
I've had one of each batch of blocks.A Both of my blocks carried the
XE192540 part number but I've seen XE182540 part numbers as well. One
had a 5M2 date code (December 2, 1975) and a 1975 in a circle and the
other had a "24C2" date code which would indicate it was cast on 24
March, 1982.A Neither had Siamese bores but they did have thicker,
non-contoured main bearing webs, a thicker non-sculpted block skirt
(oil pan rail), beefier high nodular iron four bolt main caps, and
thicker cylinder walls.A I weighed one of my bare XE blocks with caps
at 181 lbs.A It was bored to 4.030".A Oddly, there were SK iron
blocks that had Siamese bores but retained the scalloped pan rails and
main webs of the standard production 351C blocks.A When I sold Kaase
my first XE block (the one he won the 2004 Engine Masters Competition
with), he said it wasn't uncommon to have one cylinder with a thin spot
needing a sleeve.A He still had an Siamese bore SK block but wanted my
XE block since the EMC dyno pulls started at 2500 RPM and he was afraid
he'd spit his custom Sonny Bryant crank out the bottom if he rattled
the mains on the scalloped main SK block.
Dan Jones
On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Larry Stock
<[1]larrys at panteraparts.com> wrote:
The earlier 351C 4V blocks typically did not have 4 bolt mains. Many
could
be retrofitted by drilling and tapping the bosses that were cast in
place
but not drilled and taped, but I think the early 2V engines did not
even
have the cast bosses but the later 2V engines had the cast Bosses
but not
the 4 bolt Caps. So I know there were running block casting changes.
The
Cleveland facility was state of the art at the time, and that is why
the
Australian Blocks were cast heavier because the AussieA^1s could not
hold
the precision in casting that the Cleveland folks did. Cleveland
folks
cast them pretty thin walled and light, which is why core shift is
such an
issue. I donA^1t know if anyone is on the list that could comment as
to what
and when those casting changes went into effect?
Larry
On 6/21/16, 9:20 AM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Daniel C Jones"
<[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com on behalf of
[3]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>A A > That's just weird.AA ?!? I wonder what the real difference
is there.
>A A >A A AA Any ideas?AA Maybe something Dan Jones could speak
to?
>A A I don't know of any design differences between early and late
(D2AE)
>A A blocks that would account for hot starting.AA FWIW, two of my
D2AE 4
>A A bolt main blocks had hard starting when warm.AA One was due
to tight
>A A fitting swap headers (351C in 1966 Mustang 2+2 fastback)
cooking the
>A A full size starter.AA The other was in my second 1974 Pantera
but that
>A A was due to the 30+ year old starter windings.AA Both went
away with
>A A mini starters.
>A A Things that would make starting harder would be poor grounds,
tighter
>A A clearances/heavier oil viscosity and higher cranking
compression.A
>A A Later short blocks were low compression so would be easier to
crank
>A A over.
>A A Dan Jones
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>Detomaso Forum NO LONGER Managed by POCA
>Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>DeTomaso mailing list
>[4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>[5]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use
>the links above.
>
>Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list.
>They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
>approve the archiving of list messages.
References
1. mailto:larrys at panteraparts.com
2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
3. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
4. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
5. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
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