[DeTomaso] Correct windshield?

[MikeLDrew at aol.com]

> 
> In a message dated 2/19/16 8 51 2, knottsj at galstar.com writes:
> 
> 
> I have a late model '73 that is in need of a windshield.   The windshield
> has turned cloudy and I am getting a repaint in preparation for selling
> the car this summer.   The weather stripping seems good and the molding
> inserts.   I would like to replace the windshield but reuse the molding. 
> Is there a difference in the manufactures of the windshield?   I would
> like to order a windshield that fits first time.
> 
> >>>Over time, there have been numerous different aftermarket windshield 
> manufacturers; not all of them maintained the desired standard.   The 
> original glass was made by Sicursiv.   My car has a 1980s replacement made by 
> Sigla, a German company.   I suspect it's a bit undersized, as it literally 
> squeaks in the gasket and I can feel it moving when going over bumps (and yes, 
> it leaks a bit too).   
> 
> The GT5-era Panteras had glass made by Saint Gobain, a French company.   
> In the 1990s, Sicursive sent the molds to their Finnish subsidiary, 
> Sicursivtro (or Sicurvtro, I can't quite remember exactly, but surely somebody here 
> has one and can tell us), and for awhile the vendors were selling those 
> (for $800 each); they were identical to the original glass.   And there were 
> dozens of domestic manufacturers that made them in the 1970s, just as there 
> are lots of makers of replacement glass for more modern cars today.
> 
> (As an aside, Lori's 2003 Toyota pickup truck needed a windshield 
> recently; an original Toyota windshield was $1700!   Safelite fixed it with 
> Safelite glass for under $200...)
> 
> Currently, Wilkinson sells glass that is marked "De Tomaso".   It's 
> actually made by Pilkington, a UK-based company that is an OEM supplier with 
> factories all over the world.   The De Tomaso glass is made in their Mexican 
> plant, in a very labor-intensive process where each one is made one at a 
> time, by hand.   The process has tremendous waste, as a substantial percentage 
> (approaching half) of the glass they make fails to meet their exacting 
> standards (which are substantially higher than government standards).   One 
> little bubble or imperfection, no matter how insignificant, and that completed 
> windshield goes right into the scrap heap.   (I learned all about this 
> speaking with the Pilkington rep at the SEMA show some years ago).
> 
> A few years ago there was an effort to get new windshields made in 
> Southern California.   John Buckman (original owner) bought a factory replacement 
> windshield as a spare, when the car was relatively new; he supplied it to 
> serve as a pattern for the new glass.
> 
> I believe (although I'm not sure--I'm sure he will tell me if I'm wrong) 
> that Scott at SACC restorations is sourcing his windshields from this 
> manufacturer.   He lists them here on his website in three different flavors:
> 
> http://www.saccrestorations.net/glass/
> 
> Hall Pantera has, for years, sold an aftermarket windshield that was of 
> dubious quality. The ones I saw were made in Brazil, and incorporated an 
> internal antenna.   This sounds like a nice feature, but the wires at the base 
> of the windshield were mere stubs, making it difficult to hook up.   More 
> problematic is the fact that the glass was both slightly undersize, and also 
> thinner than stock, so it was a sloppy fit in the opening and would 
> chronically leak.   What's especially bad is that the glass was not optically 
> pure, and had big distortions on each side.   I drove a car so-equipped to the 
> Fun Rally one year, and was surprised to discover that the optical 
> illusion (for instance, the line on the road demarking the shoulder would bend in 
> a funhouse mirror effect) screwed with my brain and gave me a big headache.
> 
> (Truth be told, in the interests of full disclosure, I don't know if their 
> current offering is the same as the ones I've encountered in the past).
> 
> >Also if I am in need of new weather stripping, (I will know after we get
> the old one out) what is the combination that weather stripping and
> windshield both match?
> 
> >>>The original Italian manufacturer is still making the original rubber; 
> you can find it here:
> 
> http://www.cicognaniguarnizioni.it/index.php?option=com_content&
> view=article&id=227:pantera-1970-89&catid=29:detomaso&Itemid=24&lang=en
> 
> If you don't want to chance ordering it from Italy, Roland Jackel in 
> Germany is a distributor and he sells it for the same price; with him, you have 
> the advantage of dealing with a friend and a known straight shooter who can 
> be relied on, not to mention somebody who speaks English.
> 
> www.detomaso.de
> 
> Sadly, the US Pantera vendors mostly don't stock this rubber because it's 
> too expensive (280 Euros) and they feel (I know because two of them told me 
> this directly) that US owners are simply too cheap to pay for quality.   
> The reproduction rubber that they are offering is shameful.   You know to be 
> alarmed when you open the box, and it contains instructions on how to cut 
> and carve the gasket 'if it doesn't fit properly'.
> 
> Which, of course, it doesn't.
> 
> The rubber has the wrong profile so you have to go all the way around the 
> inside with a knife to cut part of it away.   But what's worse, it doesn't 
> fit the body opening properly, so you have to cut the one-piece gasket at 
> all four corners, and shorten it, then glue the whole thing in with sealer.
> 
> Yes, the gasket is less expensive.   But if you are paying a glass 
> installer by the hour, it takes so much longer to install this POS that by the 
> time you're done, you wind up spending more than you would have otherwise!
> 
> Mike Mayberry sells this rubber on E-bay and calls it “NOS”.   I've 
> returned several to him, which were purchased by overseas customers and sent to 
> me to forward on to them.   NOS is not the same as 'new'.
> 
> On this same subject, Jack wrote:
> 
>  >Currently there are two windshield types available- one of clear glass, 
> one blue-green tinted (a bit darker at the top than at the bottom). 
> 
> >>>Actually, as seen in Scott's link above, there are three types 
> available, and several different competing manufacturers.
> 
> >The side windows are usually a matching tint including the rear quarter 
> glass. Can't verify when tinted glass became factory-available- possibly 
> with the late '72 L models. 
> 
> >>>The first couple of hundred cars (pre-USA pushbuttons) used clear 
> glass.   Interestingly, the rear quarter window glass has a slightly different 
> shape, and the later glass won't fit those cars.
> 
> >Stock was marked 'Sicursive' . Our '72 L had a clear 'Sicursive' 
> windshield when we bought it in 1980.
> 
> >>>No it didn't--no US cars had clear glass.   They all came with glass 
> with a uniform greenish tint to it.   The clear glass in the early cars is 
> REALLY clear.   You've probably never seen it, as there are only a tiny 
> handful of Euro pushbuttons in the USA.
> 
> > It had debonded same way yours did so I replaced it a year later with a 
> tinted one made somewhere in the U.S. Its still just fine. 
> 
> >>>Presumably you mean glass that is completely tinted green, and then has 
> a darker green sunshade band at the top?   This is how the Saint Gobain 
> GT5-spec windshields were made, if I'm not mistaken.   
> 
> >The stainless windshield trim was inset into the stock gasket by means of 
> a shallow L shaped recess molded in to accept a protruding stainless 
> section of the trim.
> 
> >>>True dat.   And people have found out the hard way that if you install 
> the rubber on the glass, then install the rubber/glass combo on the car, 
> it's physically impossible to then install the trim afterwards!   The trim is 
> held in place by the compression between the edge of the glass and the 
> edge of the windshield opening.   So the rubber and chrome have to be 
> installed on the glass first, then the whole works is installed as an assembly.
> 
> 
> >There are gaskets now made that have no L-recess. Although not stock, the 
> 'blank' gasket makes far more sense than powder-coating or otherwise 
> blacking out the bright stainless trim, then adding it to a slit gasket so it 
> nearly disappears from view 10 ft away against the flat-black gasket. 
> 
> >>>Although blacked-out trim is what the factory did on the GTS and the 
> later cars.
> 
> I personally think the cars look weird/dumb with side window trim, but no 
> windshield trim.   It's a 1970s car, and when the trim is missing, it just 
> looks to me like something is missing.   I know others like that look 
> though.
> 
> >There are windshields now made all over the world that are a little 
> thinner and of slightly different dimensions than the early '70s ones, and some 
> that are 1/2" or so larger in all dimensions for gluing in directly without 
> a gasket, in various tint-shades.
> 
> >>>Yes, windshields are indeed a bit of a crapshoot it seems.
> 
> >At one time, Hall sold stock-appearing windshields (probably locally 
> made) that had radio antenna wires molded in. The thinner or smaller-dimension 
> glass often tends to leak when driving in the rain since it doesn't stretch 
> the gasket enough to seal.
> 
> >>>Very true.
> 
> > Windshield-glass-specific RTV-silicone is your best recourse since 
> there's no guarantee that fresh glass won't also leak- even if professionally 
> installed. 
> 
> >>>Absolutely true. 3M and others make dedicated windshield sealer, which 
> looks like simple RTV silicone but is made differently.   Normal RTV is 
> acidic, and can lead to rust.   When you are installing your windshield (or 
> rather, having it done professionally as I imagine you will do), make sure 
> they don't take this shortcut, and insist on proper windshield sealer.
> 
> Finally, I do know there is one guy on this forum who had a Wilkinson 
> windshield that absolutely would not fit in his car.   I don't remember if the 
> problem was the hokey gasket, or not, but I seem to remember it was 
> dimensionally different from the one he was removing.   Having said that, I also 
> can't remember if the one he was removing was original, or an aftermarket 
> replacement, and it strikes me as distinctly possible that a former owner had 
> modified the car to accomodate ill-fitting glass, making proper glass no 
> longer suitable?
> 
> Mike
> 
-------------- next part --------------
     In a message dated 2/19/16 8 51 2, knottsj at galstar.com writes:
     I have a late model '73 that is in need of a windshield.  The
     windshield
     has turned cloudy and I am getting a repaint in preparation for
     selling
     the car this summer.  The weather stripping seems good and the
     molding
     inserts.  I would like to replace the windshield but reuse the
     molding.
     Is there a difference in the manufactures of the windshield?  I
     would
     like to order a windshield that fits first time.
     >>>Over time, there have been numerous different aftermarket
     windshield manufacturers; not all of them maintained the desired
     standard.  The original glass was made by Sicursiv.  My car has a
     1980s replacement made by Sigla, a German company.  I suspect it's a
     bit undersized, as it literally squeaks in the gasket and I can feel
     it moving when going over bumps (and yes, it leaks a bit too).
     The GT5-era Panteras had glass made by Saint Gobain, a French
     company.  In the 1990s, Sicursive sent the molds to their Finnish
     subsidiary, Sicursivtro (or Sicurvtro, I can't quite remember
     exactly, but surely somebody here has one and can tell us), and for
     awhile the vendors were selling those (for $800 each); they were
     identical to the original glass.  And there were dozens of domestic
     manufacturers that made them in the 1970s, just as there are lots of
     makers of replacement glass for more modern cars today.
     (As an aside, Lori's 2003 Toyota pickup truck needed a windshield
     recently; an original Toyota windshield was $1700!  Safelite fixed
     it with Safelite glass for under $200...)
     Currently, Wilkinson sells glass that is marked "De Tomaso".  It's
     actually made by Pilkington, a UK-based company that is an OEM
     supplier with factories all over the world.  The De Tomaso glass is
     made in their Mexican plant, in a very labor-intensive process where
     each one is made one at a time, by hand.  The process has tremendous
     waste, as a substantial percentage (approaching half) of the glass
     they make fails to meet their exacting standards (which are
     substantially higher than government standards).  One little bubble
     or imperfection, no matter how insignificant, and that completed
     windshield goes right into the scrap heap.  (I learned all about
     this speaking with the Pilkington rep at the SEMA show some years
     ago).
     A few years ago there was an effort to get new windshields made in
     Southern California.  John Buckman (original owner) bought a factory
     replacement windshield as a spare, when the car was relatively new;
     he supplied it to serve as a pattern for the new glass.
     I believe (although I'm not sure--I'm sure he will tell me if I'm
     wrong) that Scott at SACC restorations is sourcing his windshields
     from this manufacturer.  He lists them here on his website in three
     different flavors:
     http://www.saccrestorations.net/glass/
     Hall Pantera has, for years, sold an aftermarket windshield that was
     of dubious quality. The ones I saw were made in Brazil, and
     incorporated an internal antenna.  This sounds like a nice feature,
     but the wires at the base of the windshield were mere stubs, making
     it difficult to hook up.  More problematic is the fact that the
     glass was both slightly undersize, and also thinner than stock, so
     it was a sloppy fit in the opening and would chronically leak.
     What's especially bad is that the glass was not optically pure, and
     had big distortions on each side.  I drove a car so-equipped to the
     Fun Rally one year, and was surprised to discover that the optical
     illusion (for instance, the line on the road demarking the shoulder
     would bend in a funhouse mirror effect) screwed with my brain and
     gave me a big headache.
     (Truth be told, in the interests of full disclosure, I don't know if
     their current offering is the same as the ones I've encountered in
     the past).
     >Also if I am in need of new weather stripping, (I will know after
     we get
     the old one out) what is the combination that weather stripping and
     windshield both match?
     >>>The original Italian manufacturer is still making the original
     rubber; you can find it here:
     http://www.cicognaniguarnizioni.it/index.php?option=com_content&view
     =article&id=227:pantera-1970-89&catid=29:detomaso&Itemid=24&lang=en
     If you don't want to chance ordering it from Italy, Roland Jackel in
     Germany is a distributor and he sells it for the same price; with
     him, you have the advantage of dealing with a friend and a known
     straight shooter who can be relied on, not to mention somebody who
     speaks English.
     www.detomaso.de
     Sadly, the US Pantera vendors mostly don't stock this rubber because
     it's too expensive (280 Euros) and they feel (I know because two of
     them told me this directly) that US owners are simply too cheap to
     pay for quality.  The reproduction rubber that they are offering is
     shameful.  You know to be alarmed when you open the box, and it
     contains instructions on how to cut and carve the gasket 'if it
     doesn't fit properly'.
     Which, of course, it doesn't.
     The rubber has the wrong profile so you have to go all the way
     around the inside with a knife to cut part of it away.  But what's
     worse, it doesn't fit the body opening properly, so you have to cut
     the one-piece gasket at all four corners, and shorten it, then glue
     the whole thing in with sealer.
     Yes, the gasket is less expensive.  But if you are paying a glass
     installer by the hour, it takes so much longer to install this POS
     that by the time you're done, you wind up spending more than you
     would have otherwise!
     Mike Mayberry sells this rubber on E-bay and calls it aNOSa.  I've
     returned several to him, which were purchased by overseas customers
     and sent to me to forward on to them.  NOS is not the same as 'new'.
     On this same subject, Jack wrote:
     >Currently there are two windshield types available- one of clear
     glass, one blue-green tinted (a bit darker at the top than at the
     bottom).
     >>>Actually, as seen in Scott's link above, there are three types
     available, and several different competing manufacturers.
     >The side windows are usually a matching tint including the rear
     quarter glass. Can't verify when tinted glass became
     factory-available- possibly with the late '72 L models.
     >>>The first couple of hundred cars (pre-USA pushbuttons) used clear
     glass.  Interestingly, the rear quarter window glass has a slightly
     different shape, and the later glass won't fit those cars.
     >Stock was marked 'Sicursive' . Our '72 L had a clear 'Sicursive'
     windshield when we bought it in 1980.
     >>>No it didn't--no US cars had clear glass.  They all came with
     glass with a uniform greenish tint to it.  The clear glass in the
     early cars is REALLY clear.  You've probably never seen it, as there
     are only a tiny handful of Euro pushbuttons in the USA.
     > It had debonded same way yours did so I replaced it a year later
     with a tinted one made somewhere in the U.S. Its still just fine.
     >>>Presumably you mean glass that is completely tinted green, and
     then has a darker green sunshade band at the top?  This is how the
     Saint Gobain GT5-spec windshields were made, if I'm not mistaken.
     >The stainless windshield trim was inset into the stock gasket by
     means of a shallow L shaped recess molded in to accept a protruding
     stainless section of the trim.
     >>>True dat.  And people have found out the hard way that if you
     install the rubber on the glass, then install the rubber/glass combo
     on the car, it's physically impossible to then install the trim
     afterwards!  The trim is held in place by the compression between
     the edge of the glass and the edge of the windshield opening.  So
     the rubber and chrome have to be installed on the glass first, then
     the whole works is installed as an assembly.
     >There are gaskets now made that have no L-recess. Although not
     stock, the 'blank' gasket makes far more sense than powder-coating
     or otherwise blacking out the bright stainless trim, then adding it
     to a slit gasket so it nearly disappears from view 10 ft away
     against the flat-black gasket.
     >>>Although blacked-out trim is what the factory did on the GTS and
     the later cars.
     I personally think the cars look weird/dumb with side window trim,
     but no windshield trim.  It's a 1970s car, and when the trim is
     missing, it just looks to me like something is missing.  I know
     others like that look though.
     >There are windshields now made all over the world that are a little
     thinner and of slightly different dimensions than the early '70s
     ones, and some that are 1/2" or so larger in all dimensions for
     gluing in directly without a gasket, in various tint-shades.
     >>>Yes, windshields are indeed a bit of a crapshoot it seems.
     >At one time, Hall sold stock-appearing windshields (probably
     locally made) that had radio antenna wires molded in. The thinner or
     smaller-dimension glass often tends to leak when driving in the rain
     since it doesn't stretch the gasket enough to seal.
     >>>Very true.
     > Windshield-glass-specific RTV-silicone is your best recourse since
     there's no guarantee that fresh glass won't also leak- even if
     professionally installed.
     >>>Absolutely true. 3M and others make dedicated windshield sealer,
     which looks like simple RTV silicone but is made differently.
     Normal RTV is acidic, and can lead to rust.  When you are installing
     your windshield (or rather, having it done professionally as I
     imagine you will do), make sure they don't take this shortcut, and
     insist on proper windshield sealer.
     Finally, I do know there is one guy on this forum who had a
     Wilkinson windshield that absolutely would not fit in his car.  I
     don't remember if the problem was the hokey gasket, or not, but I
     seem to remember it was dimensionally different from the one he was
     removing.  Having said that, I also can't remember if the one he was
     removing was original, or an aftermarket replacement, and it strikes
     me as distinctly possible that a former owner had modified the car
     to accomodate ill-fitting glass, making proper glass no longer
     suitable?
     Mike