[DeTomaso] Mismatched Intake and Head Ports
jderyke at aol.com
jderyke at aol.com
Sat Feb 13 17:06:30 EST 2016
Mike, if the intake gaskets can be arranged so they don't suck air or oil, the intake you have may still work. I and others routinely install 2V intakes on Boss and 351-4V heads to de-tune unwanted high-end power and enhance low-end torque for more comfortable around town driving. The resulting step in the ports acts as an 'anti-reversion plate' and falls flat at around 5200 rpms but works fine up to that level, with no other tuning needed. If you find yourself not visiting the upper edges of the tach very often, try it with good intake gaskets & see how it drives.
Its also pretty well known that Edelbrock had a small run of single 4bbl intakes of a particular model in which the ports were set too close to the edges, causing easy gasket failure. If your intake is an Edelbrock, call their tech line and ask them if you have one of those too-thin intakes. In most cases, they will exchange a proper intake for your heads, no questions asked. Good luck.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Becker <mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
To: 'David Briggs' <d.briggs at cox.net>; 'Ken Green' <kenn_green at yahoo.com>; 'Mike Drew' <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: detomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2016 11:24 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Mismatched Intake and Head Ports
The previous owner kept the Webers and gave me the Performer and Holley
carb. It was part of the negotiations.
From: David Briggs [mailto:d.briggs at cox.net]
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 8:17 AM
To: Mike Becker <mikebecker679 at gmail.com>; 'Ken Green'
<kenn_green at yahoo.com>; 'Mike Drew' <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Mismatched Intake and Head Ports
What happened to the Webers?
From: [1]Mike Becker
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 11:20 PM
To: [2]'Ken Green' ; [3]'Mike Drew'
Cc: [4]detomaso at poca.com ; [5]'David Briggs'
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Mismatched Intake and Head Ports
Yes, that could be an explanation. When I bought the car (15 or so
years ago), it was fitted with a Webers setup. They may have
port-matched the heads to the Weber intake.
mike
From: Ken Green [[6]mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 11:08 PM
To: Mike Becker <[7]mikebecker679 at gmail.com>; 'Mike Drew'
<[8]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: [9]detomaso at poca.com; David Briggs <[10]d.briggs at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Mismatched Intake and Head Ports
Maybe the heads were ported?
Ken
_______________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Becker <[11]mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
To: 'Mike Drew' <[12]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: [13]detomaso at poca.com; David Briggs <[14]d.briggs at cox.net>
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Mismatched Intake and Head Ports
ok, maybe I am nuts. But the ports are way bigger in the heads.
Almost
half an inch taller and quarter inch wider.
I've attached 2 pictures. When you look at the picture with the gasket
sitting on the intake manifold, it looks good, the size matches.
Excuse my
artwork, but on the picture of the gasket on the head, I've highlighted
with
yellow the approximate area behind the gasket where there is nothing,
just
the open port. So fair enough, along the sides, it's only about one
eighth
of an inch on each side, no big deal. But along the top and bottom,
that
means there will be very little gasket material sandwiched between the
head
and the intake. My fear is that the thin strip of gasket material will
blow
out again, just like the last set of gaskets.
mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Drew [mailto:[15]MikeLDrew at aol.com]
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 8:42 PM
To: Mike Becker <[16]mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
Cc: <[17]detomaso at poca.com> <[18]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Mismatched Intake and Head Ports
Mike,
You're a spaz. :)
Boss 351 heads and standard 4V 351C heads are identical, except that
the
Boss heads come from the factory with machining in the rocker arm mount
area
so they can accommodate adjustable rockers, because the Boss came with
solid
lifters. The rest of the head, including the intake ports were
absolutely
identical.
Now, it's possible that at some point somebody decked your block, which
lowers the heads and alters the relationship between the intake and the
heads. Normally the intake is machined accordingly if a bunch of
material is
taken from the block. The heads are not only lower, but also closer
together
since they move closer to the centerline of the engine as they are
moving
down. So the bottom of the intake may need to be machined to allow it
to fit
properly.
Could that explain the mating problem you are seeing?
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 12, 2016, at 20:24, "Mike Becker" <[19]mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hey Gang,
>
> I've just torn down my top end on my Pantera because the intake
> manifold gaskets were completely destroyed. They were the so called
> self-destructing Felpro Print-O-Seal / Print-O-Leak gaskets. Only,
I
> see now what the real problem was. I went to fit my brand new
> Edelbrock gaskets and there's no way they'll work! It turns out I
have
> BOSS 351 heads and a Cleveland intake! This undoubtedly contributed
to
> the early demise of the old intake gaskets. because in the
mismatch,
> there are several places where there is minimal surface contact in
> order to sandwich the gasket. The result is that the gasket isn't
held
> in place for long. While the engine was still assembled, there were
> places where the entire blue stripe on the gasket material was
> completely exposed, i.e. not sandwiched between the intake and the
> head. See attached photos for the results.
>
> So, now what do I do?
>
> - Switch to aluminum heads for a couple of grand (can't really
afford
> it)
>
> - get a BOSS intake (can't seem to find one, they all look like
> windsor intakes, except for one NOS unit for 3 grand!)
>
> - fabricate home-made gaskets
>
> I saw some nice original BOSS 351 iron heads on ebay for $2500. Are
> they really worth that much? If so, mine are still very fresh,
maybe I
> could sell them to fund a set of Trickflow aluminum heads.
>
> Somebody please help me before I blow a gasket!
>
> thanks,
>
> Mike Becker (San Diego)
>
> 1741
>
> <<...>> <<...>>
> <passengerside.jpg>
> <driverside.jpg>
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-------------- next part --------------
Mike, if the intake gaskets can be arranged so they don't suck air or
oil, the intake you have may still work. I and others routinely install
2V intakes on Boss and 351-4V heads to de-tune unwanted high-end power
and enhance low-end torque for more comfortable around town driving.
The resulting step in the ports acts as an 'anti-reversion plate' and
falls flat at around 5200 rpms but works fine up to that level, with no
other tuning needed. If you find yourself not visiting the upper edges
of the tach very often, try it with good intake gaskets & see how it
drives.
Its also pretty well known that Edelbrock had a small run of single
4bbl intakes of a particular model in which the ports were set too
close to the edges, causing easy gasket failure. If your intake is an
Edelbrock, call their tech line and ask them if you have one of those
too-thin intakes. In most cases, they will exchange a proper intake for
your heads, no questions asked. Good luck.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Becker <mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
To: 'David Briggs' <d.briggs at cox.net>; 'Ken Green'
<kenn_green at yahoo.com>; 'Mike Drew' <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: detomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2016 11:24 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Mismatched Intake and Head Ports
The previous owner kept the Webers and gave me the Performer and Holley
carb. It was part of the negotiations.
From: David Briggs [[1]mailto:d.briggs at cox.net]
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 8:17 AM
To: Mike Becker <[2]mikebecker679 at gmail.com>; 'Ken Green'
<[3]kenn_green at yahoo.com>; 'Mike Drew' <[4]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: [5]detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Mismatched Intake and Head Ports
What happened to the Webers?
From: [1]Mike Becker
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 11:20 PM
To: [2]'Ken Green' ; [3]'Mike Drew'
Cc: [4][6]detomaso at poca.com ; [5]'David Briggs'
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Mismatched Intake and Head Ports
Yes, that could be an explanation. When I bought the car (15 or so
years ago), it was fitted with a Webers setup. They may have
port-matched the heads to the Weber intake.
mike
From: Ken Green [[6][7]mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 11:08 PM
To: Mike Becker <[7][8]mikebecker679 at gmail.com>; 'Mike Drew'
<[8][9]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: [9][10]detomaso at poca.com; David Briggs <[10][11]d.briggs at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Mismatched Intake and Head Ports
Maybe the heads were ported?
Ken
_______________________________________________________________________
From: Mike Becker <[11][12]mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
To: 'Mike Drew' <[12][13]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: [13][14]detomaso at poca.com; David Briggs <[14][15]d.briggs at cox.net>
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Mismatched Intake and Head Ports
ok, maybe I am nuts. But the ports are way bigger in the heads.
Almost
half an inch taller and quarter inch wider.
I've attached 2 pictures. When you look at the picture with the gasket
sitting on the intake manifold, it looks good, the size matches.
Excuse my
artwork, but on the picture of the gasket on the head, I've highlighted
with
yellow the approximate area behind the gasket where there is nothing,
just
the open port. So fair enough, along the sides, it's only about one
eighth
of an inch on each side, no big deal. But along the top and bottom,
that
means there will be very little gasket material sandwiched between the
head
and the intake. My fear is that the thin strip of gasket material will
blow
out again, just like the last set of gaskets.
mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Drew [[16]mailto:[15]MikeLDrew at aol.com]
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 8:42 PM
To: Mike Becker <[16][17]mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
Cc: <[17][18]detomaso at poca.com> <[18][19]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Mismatched Intake and Head Ports
Mike,
You're a spaz. :)
Boss 351 heads and standard 4V 351C heads are identical, except that
the
Boss heads come from the factory with machining in the rocker arm mount
area
so they can accommodate adjustable rockers, because the Boss came with
solid
lifters. The rest of the head, including the intake ports were
absolutely
identical.
Now, it's possible that at some point somebody decked your block, which
lowers the heads and alters the relationship between the intake and the
heads. Normally the intake is machined accordingly if a bunch of
material is
taken from the block. The heads are not only lower, but also closer
together
since they move closer to the centerline of the engine as they are
moving
down. So the bottom of the intake may need to be machined to allow it
to fit
properly.
Could that explain the mating problem you are seeing?
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 12, 2016, at 20:24, "Mike Becker"
<[19][20]mikebecker679 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hey Gang,
>
> I've just torn down my top end on my Pantera because the intake
> manifold gaskets were completely destroyed. They were the so called
> self-destructing Felpro Print-O-Seal / Print-O-Leak gaskets. Only,
I
> see now what the real problem was. I went to fit my brand new
> Edelbrock gaskets and there's no way they'll work! It turns out I
have
> BOSS 351 heads and a Cleveland intake! This undoubtedly contributed
to
> the early demise of the old intake gaskets. because in the
mismatch,
> there are several places where there is minimal surface contact in
> order to sandwich the gasket. The result is that the gasket isn't
held
> in place for long. While the engine was still assembled, there were
> places where the entire blue stripe on the gasket material was
> completely exposed, i.e. not sandwiched between the intake and the
> head. See attached photos for the results.
>
> So, now what do I do?
>
> - Switch to aluminum heads for a couple of grand (can't really
afford
> it)
>
> - get a BOSS intake (can't seem to find one, they all look like
> windsor intakes, except for one NOS unit for 3 grand!)
>
> - fabricate home-made gaskets
>
> I saw some nice original BOSS 351 iron heads on ebay for $2500. Are
> they really worth that much? If so, mine are still very fresh,
maybe I
> could sell them to fund a set of Trickflow aluminum heads.
>
> Somebody please help me before I blow a gasket!
>
> thanks,
>
> Mike Becker (San Diego)
>
> 1741
>
> <<...>> <<...>>
> <passengerside.jpg>
> <driverside.jpg>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> [20][21]DeTomaso at poca.com
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>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use
the links above.
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