[DeTomaso] DeTomaso Digest, Vol 150, Issue 14

jderyke at aol.com jderyke at aol.com
Sat Dec 17 18:50:44 EST 2016


Cullen, ALL narrow body GTS cars sold in Europe, the Middle East or in Australia or NZ were called 'GTS' by DeTomaso, all the way from 1971 to 1989. Not very exclusive, I'm afraid unless the car was a GTS/Gr-3, and those cars were regular production with optional bolt-ons.


-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-request <detomaso-request at server.detomasolist.com>
To: detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 14, 2016 9:00 am
Subject: DeTomaso Digest, Vol 150, Issue 14

Send DeTomaso mailing list submissions to
detomaso at server.detomasolist.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
detomaso-request at server.detomasolist.com

You can reach the person managing the list at
detomaso-owner at server.detomasolist.com

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of DeTomaso digest..."


Daily Detomaso List Digest

Today's Topics:

1. body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Cullen McCann)
2. Re: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Julian Kift)
3. Re: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Cullen McCann)
4. Re: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Julian Kift)
5. Re: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
(Richard Greenblum)
6. Re: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Cullen McCann)
7. Re: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Julian Kift)
8. Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Mike Drew)
9. Re: Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
(Ken Green)
10. Re: Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
(Cullen McCann)
11. Re: Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
(Paul A Rimov)
12. Re: Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
(Cullen McCann)
13. Re: Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Mike Drew)
14. Re: Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
(Emiliano Ballejos)
15. Re: Fwd:? body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
(MikeLDrew at aol.com)
16. Re: Fwd:? body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
(Ken Green)
17. Side Marker Lights (Patrick Orlando)
18. Re: Fwd:? body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
(Mike Drew)
19. FW: Archer Episode (The DeTomaso Registry Guy)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 13:42:48 -0600
From: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
To: Email List Address For Posting <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
Message-ID:
<CAFwr-MWkOFZAVhd5cEoVTS=eF=jJYGXeHwUepSMNp3D28vZJSg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi All,

I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet metal
on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told the
USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?

Thank you so much!!

Cullen
Yukon, OK
-------------- next part --------------
Hi All,
I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based onA its
characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe?
I'm toldA the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin.A Do Euro GTS
cars have any GT-specificA identifying marks in the steel?
Thank you so much!!
Cullen
Yukon, OK

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:59:28 +0000
From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>, Email List Address For
Posting <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
Message-ID:
<DM5PR18MB1323804059802A24FCBACC4D959B0 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?


For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.


Julian


________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
To: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Hi All,

I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet metal
on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told the
USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?

Thank you so much!!

Cullen
Yukon, OK
-------------- next part --------------
I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?

For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.

Julian
__________________________________________________________________

From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
To: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Hi All,
I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
metal
on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
the
USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
Thank you so much!!
Cullen
Yukon, OK

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 14:23:33 -0600
From: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
To: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
Cc: Email List Address For Posting <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
Message-ID:
<CAFwr-MWfxGTSuQowga0sAs+rLrbm3y33jC3ZQFQvzt4S5Hz_kw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Julian!

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my car,
which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many years, was
destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect Ted to know,
but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in boxes, and that's
how I acquired it.

A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It did not
come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes and I see
no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front end work has
been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which
simply raises the question in my mind. I know that's not conclusive.

I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the production
line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those characteristics were
definitive, but If any body online does have history on the car, please
contact me offline.

thank you!! Cullen

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
> year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
>
>
> For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
> establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
> cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.
>
>
> Julian
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
> Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
> *To:* Email List Address For Posting
> *Subject:* [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
> characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet metal
> on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told the
> USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
> GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
>
> Thank you so much!!
>
> Cullen
> Yukon, OK
>
-------------- next part --------------
Hi Julian!
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
car, which is late 72 L, 4653.A It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
AA USA marketA "L" car would have a large frontA bumper, correct? It
did not come with one, andA it does not have shock bumper mounting
holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652
and 4654 beingA euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my
mind.A I know that'sA notA conclusive.A
I was justA hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent toA the
production line, rather than word of mouth.A Didn't know if those
characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
history on the car, please contact me offline.
thank you!! Cullen

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
<[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:

I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?

For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.

Julian
A
__________________________________________________________________

From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of Cullen McCann <[3]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
To: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
A
Hi All,
I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
metal
on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
the
USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
Thank you so much!!
Cullen
Yukon, OK

References

1. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
3. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 20:30:37 +0000
From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Cc: Email List Address For Posting <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
Message-ID:
<DM5PR18MB13238CB0ACE56CEE6B2A6399959B0 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cullen,


As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies as all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference in an Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper holes would be indicative of an Euro destined car to me. Does it have evidence of pot rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender flares? Do you have any other telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered dash, clock in the dash etc.?


Julian


________________________________
From: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
To: Julian Kift
Cc: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Hi Julian!

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in boxes, and that's how I acquired it.

A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my mind. I know that's not conclusive.

I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the production line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have history on the car, please contact me offline.

thank you!! Cullen

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com<mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com>> wrote:

I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?


For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.


Julian


________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>> on behalf of Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com<mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
To: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Hi All,

I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet metal
on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told the
USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?

Thank you so much!!

Cullen
Yukon, OK

-------------- next part --------------
Cullen,

As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies as
all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference
in an Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper holes
would be indicative of an Euro destined car to me. Does it have
evidence of pot rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender flares? Do
you have any other telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered dash, clock
in the dash etc.?

Julian
__________________________________________________________________

From: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
To: Julian Kift
Cc: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Hi Julian!
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It did
not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes and
I see no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front
end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654
being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my mind. I
know that's not conclusive.
I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
production line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those
characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
history on the car, please contact me offline.
thank you!! Cullen
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
<[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:

I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?

For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.

Julian
__________________________________________________________________

From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of Cullen McCann <[3]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
To: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Hi All,
I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
metal
on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
the
USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
Thank you so much!!
Cullen
Yukon, OK

References

1. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
3. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 14:45:40 -0600
From: Richard Greenblum <Richard at richardgreenblum.com>
To: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>, Cullen McCann
<cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Cc: Email List Address For Posting <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
Message-ID: <D475B9ED.545AF%Richard at richardgreenblum.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I think most of the Euro GTSs didn?t have flares.

Richard
Austin, TX




From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 14:30
To: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Cc: Email List Address For Posting <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Cullen,

As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies as
all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference
in an Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper holes
would be indicative of an Euro destined car to me. Does it have
evidence of pot rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender flares? Do
you have any other telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered dash, clock
in the dash etc.?

Julian
__________________________________________________________________

From: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
To: Julian Kift
Cc: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Hi Julian!
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It did
not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes and
I see no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front
end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654
being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my mind. I
know that's not conclusive.
I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
production line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those
characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
history on the car, please contact me offline.
thank you!! Cullen
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
<[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:

I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?

For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.

Julian
__________________________________________________________________

From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of Cullen McCann <[3]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
To: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Hi All,
I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
metal
on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
the
USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
Thank you so much!!
Cullen
Yukon, OK

References

1. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
3. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
_______________________________________________


Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
the links above.

Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
the archiving of list messages.


-------------- next part --------------
I think most of the Euro GTSs didn't have flares.
Richard
Austin, TX

From: DeTomaso <[1]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of Julian Kift <[2]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 14:30
To: Cullen McCann <[3]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Cc: Email List Address For Posting
<[4]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Cullen,
As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies
as
all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference
in an Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper
holes
would be indicative of an Euro destined car to me. Does it have
evidence of pot rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender flares? Do
you have any other telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered dash,
clock
in the dash etc.?
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: Cullen McCann <[5]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
To: Julian Kift
Cc: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
car
Hi Julian!
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
my
car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would
expect
Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was
in
boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It
did
not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes
and
I see no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front
end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654
being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my mind. I
know that's not conclusive.
I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
production line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those
characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
history on the car, please contact me offline.
thank you!! Cullen
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
<[1][6]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.?
What
year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the
Euro
cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not
exclusively.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <[2][7]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
behalf
of Cullen McCann <[3][8]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
To: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
Hi All,
I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the
sheet
metal
on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm
told
the
USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
Thank you so much!!
Cullen
Yukon, OK
References
1. [9]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
2. [10]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
3. [11]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[12]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[13]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

1. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
2. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
3. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
4. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
5. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
6. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
7. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
8. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
9. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
10. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
11. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
12. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
13. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 14:51:46 -0600
From: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
To: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
Cc: Email List Address For Posting <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
Message-ID:
<CAFwr-MXTgmMkJK56AJBgQ0XWbamGLP7zeAxNJPqH8yqtVB797Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not Grp 4
or 5 size. Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the perimeter.
With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even consider it when I
first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting GTS style flares back on
it.

It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no clock.
So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of course its LHD.
Hmmmm.

Cullen

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Cullen,
>
>
> As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies as
> all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference in an
> Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper holes would
> be indicative of an Euro destined car to me. Does it have evidence of pot
> rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender flares? Do you have any other
> telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered dash, clock in the dash etc.?
>
>
> Julian
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
> *To:* Julian Kift
> *Cc:* Email List Address For Posting
> *Subject:* Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
>
> Hi Julian!
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
> car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many years,
> was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect Ted to
> know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in boxes, and
> that's how I acquired it.
>
> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It did not
> come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes and I see
> no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front end work has
> been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which
> simply raises the question in my mind. I know that's not conclusive.
>
> I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
> production line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those
> characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have history
> on the car, please contact me offline.
>
> thank you!! Cullen
>
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
>> year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
>>
>>
>> For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
>> establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
>> cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.
>>
>>
>> Julian
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
>> Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
>> *To:* Email List Address For Posting
>> *Subject:* [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
>> characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
>> metal
>> on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
>> the
>> USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
>> GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
>>
>> Thank you so much!!
>>
>> Cullen
>> Yukon, OK
>>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
ItA DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not
Grp 4 or 5 size. Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even
consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting GTS
style flares back on it.
It does have aA two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no
clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of
course its LHD. Hmmmm.
Cullen

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Julian Kift
<[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:

Cullen,

As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies as
all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference
inA an Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper
holes would beA indicativeA ofA an Euro destined car to me. Does it
have evidence of pot rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender
flares?A Do you have any other telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered
dash, clock in the dash etc.?

Julian
A
__________________________________________________________________

From: Cullen McCann <[2]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
To: Julian Kift
Cc: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
A
Hi Julian!
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
car, which is late 72 L, 4653.A It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
AA USA marketA "L" car would have a large frontA bumper, correct? It
did not come with one, andA it does not have shock bumper mounting
holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652
and 4654 beingA euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my
mind.A I know that'sA notA conclusive.A
I was justA hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent toA the
production line, rather than word of mouth.A Didn't know if those
characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
history on the car, please contact me offline.
thank you!! Cullen
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
<[3]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:

I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?

For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.

Julian
A
__________________________________________________________________

From: DeTomaso <[4]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of Cullen McCann <[5]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
To: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
A
Hi All,
I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
metal
on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
the
USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
Thank you so much!!
Cullen
Yukon, OK

References

1. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
2. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
3. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
4. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
5. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 20:55:51 +0000
From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
To: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Cc: Email List Address For Posting <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
Message-ID:
<DM5PR18MB1323C5141C21149929F39E88959B0 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Perhaps you could try to source a Marti report, if available it would confirm a US delivered car.


Julian



________________________________
From: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:51:46 PM
To: Julian Kift
Cc: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not Grp 4 or 5 size. Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting GTS style flares back on it.

It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of course its LHD. Hmmmm.

Cullen

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com<mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com>> wrote:

Cullen,


As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies as all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference in an Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper holes would be indicative of an Euro destined car to me. Does it have evidence of pot rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender flares? Do you have any other telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered dash, clock in the dash etc.?


Julian


________________________________
From: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com<mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
To: Julian Kift
Cc: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Hi Julian!

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in boxes, and that's how I acquired it.

A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my mind. I know that's not conclusive.

I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the production line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have history on the car, please contact me offline.

thank you!! Cullen

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com<mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com>> wrote:

I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?


For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.


Julian


________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com<mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com>> on behalf of Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com<mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
To: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Hi All,

I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet metal
on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told the
USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?

Thank you so much!!

Cullen
Yukon, OK


-------------- next part --------------
Perhaps you could try to source a Marti report, if available it
would confirm a US delivered car.

Julian

__________________________________________________________________

From: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:51:46 PM
To: Julian Kift
Cc: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not
Grp 4 or 5 size. Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even
consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting GTS
style flares back on it.
It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no
clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of
course its LHD. Hmmmm.
Cullen
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Julian Kift
<[1]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:

Cullen,

As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies as
all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference
in an Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper holes
would be indicative of an Euro destined car to me. Does it have
evidence of pot rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender flares? Do
you have any other telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered dash, clock
in the dash etc.?

Julian
__________________________________________________________________

From: Cullen McCann <[2]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
To: Julian Kift
Cc: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Hi Julian!
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It did
not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes and
I see no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front
end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654
being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my mind. I
know that's not conclusive.
I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
production line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those
characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
history on the car, please contact me offline.
thank you!! Cullen
On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
<[3]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:

I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?

For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.

Julian
__________________________________________________________________

From: DeTomaso <[4]detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
of Cullen McCann <[5]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
To: Email List Address For Posting
Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Hi All,
I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
metal
on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
the
USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
Thank you so much!!
Cullen
Yukon, OK

References

1. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
2. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
3. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
4. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
5. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 14:16:31 -0800
From: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
To: DeTomaso Mail List <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
car
Message-ID: <C71A043B-7666-4E58-A065-720E1F5BF2FD at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii


> Cullen wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
> characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
> metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe?
> I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS
> cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
> Thank you so much!!
> 
>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'. That is, it depends on the specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
> 
> The very first cars were produced in early 1972. What appears to be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with GTS cosmetic features. It has no cutouts for the reflector lights in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker lights the USA cars had.  It has GTS flares, the traditional red paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels). Oddly, it has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the prototype of the breed).
> 
> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies, with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and rear. In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light. Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras not receiving them.
> 
> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera Pre-L sheetmetal. The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn signals. The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body, while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the body. In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing. However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a one-piece rear bumper. In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
> 
> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
> 
> 
>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
> car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
> years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
> Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
> boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
> 
> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
> 
>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269) had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
> 
> It did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting
> holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
> extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652
> and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my
> mind. I know that's not conclusive. I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
> production line, rather than word of mouth.
> 
>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end sheetmetal does the car have? If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro GTS. If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body, then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
> 
>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
> present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not
> Grp 4 or 5 size. 
> 
>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the fenders. They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on top of the standard fenders.
> 
>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
> perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even
> consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting GTS
> style flares back on it.
> 
>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the fenders that were cut away and lost?
> 
> > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no
> clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of
> course its LHD. Hmmmm.
> 
>>>> LEATHER dash? Or vinyl? Euro L Panteras that I've seen all had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is. I would imagine (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
> 
> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn signal pods on the body. If they are there, it's an L of some sort. If not, it's a Euro GTS. Of course we could end all speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report! If you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that somebody has been horsing around with. If they come back with 'no record found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the other.
> 
> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this specific car, either. If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro GTS-specific thing. But somebody could easily have swapped it for a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
> 
> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
> 
> Mike
> 
> 


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 22:47:53 +0000 (UTC)
From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
To: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>, DeTomaso Mail List
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA
market car
Message-ID: <1340652307.2481924.1481669274008 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Mike,
??? Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?? 5093 appears to have?been modified
to the front corner lights, and a closer to square rear corner light.? The lights were lost before I bought the car.? I bought a pair of round lights that were described as being for a Fiat and they fit.? I have not found lights to fit the rear.
Ken


On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:16 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:



> Cullen wrote:
>? ? 
>? ? 
> 
>? ? ? Hi All,
>? ? ? I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
>? ? ? characteristics.? Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
>? ? ? metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe?
>? ? ? I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS
>? ? ? cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
>? ? ? Thank you so much!!
> 
>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.? That is, it depends on the specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
> 
> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.? What appears to be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with GTS cosmetic features.? It has no cutouts for the reflector lights in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker lights the USA cars had.? It has GTS flares, the traditional red paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).? Oddly, it has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the prototype of the breed).
> 
> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies, with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and rear.? In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.? Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras not receiving them.
> 
> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera Pre-L sheetmetal.? The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn signals.? The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body, while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the body.? In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.? However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a one-piece rear bumper.? In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
> 
> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
> 
> 
>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
>? ? ? car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
>? ? ? years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
>? ? ? Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
>? ? ? boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
>? ? ? 
> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
> 
>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269) had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
> 
> It? did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting
>? ? ? holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
>? ? ? extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652
>? ? ? and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my
>? ? ? mind. I know that's not conclusive.? ? ? I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
>? ? ? production line, rather than word of mouth.
> 
>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end sheetmetal does the car have?? If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro GTS.? If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body, then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
> 
>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
>? ? ? present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not
>? ? ? Grp 4 or 5 size. 
> 
>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the fenders.? They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on top of the standard fenders.
> 
>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
>? ? ? perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even
>? ? ? consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting GTS
>? ? ? style flares back on it.
> 
>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the fenders that were cut away and lost?
> 
>? ? > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no
>? ? ? clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of
>? ? ? course its LHD. Hmmmm.
> 
>>>> LEATHER dash?? Or vinyl?? Euro L Panteras that I've seen all had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.? I would imagine (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
> 
> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn signal pods on the body.? If they are there, it's an L of some sort.? If not, it's a Euro GTS.? Of course we could end all speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report!? If you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that somebody has been horsing around with.? If they come back with 'no record found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the other.
> 
> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this specific car, either.? If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro GTS-specific thing.? But somebody could easily have swapped it for a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
> 
> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
_______________________________________________


Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.

Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.



-------------- next part --------------
Mike,
Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?
5093 appears to have been modified Inline image
to the front corner lights, and a closer to square rear corner light.
The lights were lost before I bought the car. I bought a pair of round
lights that were described as being for a Fiat and they fit. I have
not found lights to fit the rear.
Ken Inline image
On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:16 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> Cullen wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi All,
> I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on
its
> characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the
sheet
> metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
timeframe?
> I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
GTS
> cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
> Thank you so much!!
>
>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'. That is, it depends on the
specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
>
> The very first cars were produced in early 1972. What appears to be
the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so could
well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with GTS
cosmetic features. It has no cutouts for the reflector lights in the
rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot light on the
front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker lights the USA
cars had. It has GTS flares, the traditional red paint with satin
black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro GTS graphics on the
side (with the satin black extending up to the beltline instead of just
the top of the rocker panels). Oddly, it has a two-pod dash, the only
Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built that way (which lends credence
to the theory that it was the prototype of the breed).
>
> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies, with
the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and rear. In
front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a full-sized
light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.
Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras not
receiving them.
>
> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
(#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
Pre-L sheetmetal. The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
signals. The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with the
turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body, while the
Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn signal in the
bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the body. In both
cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front for the one-piece
front bumper, which was a USA-only thing. However, some Euro GTS cars,
and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a one-piece rear bumper. In at least
some cases, it wasn't mounted on the compressible rams like the USA
cars, and instead was bolted solidly to the chassis with T-shaped
brackets.
>
> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but did
away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
>
>
>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
my
> car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for
many
> years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would
expect
> Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it
was in
> boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
>
> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
>
>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269) had
one-piece bumpers front and rear.
>
> It did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting
> holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
> extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows
4652
> and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question
in my
> mind. I know that's not conclusive. I was just hoping to
deduce from characteristics inherent to the
> production line, rather than word of mouth.
>
>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end sheetmetal
does the car have? If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with small indentations
to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted in the bumpers, that
is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro GTS. If it has the pods
for mounting the turn signals on the body, then it's a Pantera L of
some sort--most likely a European L if there are no holes for the front
bumper rams.
>
>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
> present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
size, not
> Grp 4 or 5 size.
>
>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
fenders. They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on top
of the standard fenders.
>
>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
> perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't
even
> consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
putting GTS
> style flares back on it.
>
>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to go
through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the fenders that
were cut away and lost?
>
> > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped,
no
> clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car.
Of
> course its LHD. Hmmmm.
>
>>>> LEATHER dash? Or vinyl? Euro L Panteras that I've seen all had
the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any Euro L
Panteras that are as early as yours is. I would imagine (read: guess)
that an early Euro L would have a standard vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
>
> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn signal
pods on the body. If they are there, it's an L of some sort. If not,
it's a Euro GTS. Of course we could end all speculation immediately if
you just requested a Marti report! If you request a Marti report, and
he has one to offer up to you, then that definitively identifies your
car as a USA L-model that somebody has been horsing around with. If
they come back with 'no record found' for your VIN, that means it's a
Euro car, and then the pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to
believe one way, or the other.
>
> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason to
assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
specific car, either. If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it would
have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro GTS-specific
thing. But somebody could easily have swapped it for a standard
two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
>
> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
>
> Mike
>
>
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[1]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

1. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: IMG_0200.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 243477 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/20161213/64e2c7e1/attachment-0003.jpe>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: IMG_0199.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 290790 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/20161213/64e2c7e1/attachment-0004.jpe>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: IMG_0200.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 285870 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/20161213/64e2c7e1/attachment-0005.jpe>

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:04:51 -0600
From: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
To: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Cc: Email List Address For Posting <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
car
Message-ID:
<CAFwr-MVaLKZZ9b_u6R0rGw4wdX8hixh5vXGQyi790edyqhy4SA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn signal
"pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will research the
other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but vinyl two pod
is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears original.

As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the record
somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!

Thank you.


On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso" <
detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:


> Cullen wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi All,
> I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
> characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
> metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe?
> I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS
> cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
> Thank you so much!!
>
>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'. That is, it depends on the specific
nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
>
> The very first cars were produced in early 1972. What appears to be the
prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so could well be
wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with GTS cosmetic
features. It has no cutouts for the reflector lights in the rear quarter
panels, and only a round hole for a round dot light on the front fenders,
rather than the rectangular side marker lights the USA cars had. It has
GTS flares, the traditional red paint with satin black hood and decklid,
blacked-out trim, and Euro GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black
extending up to the beltline instead of just the top of the rocker
panels). Oddly, it has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen
that was built that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the
prototype of the breed).
>
> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies, with the
rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and rear. In front,
while the chrome surround was used, instead of a full-sized light, it used
a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a cigarette-shaped amber light,
while in the rear, the chrome surround was filled with a piece of
body-colored sheetmetal with no light. Flares were optional, with perhaps
a third of the Euro GTS Panteras not receiving them.
>
> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
(#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even through
1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera Pre-L
sheetmetal. The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are different,
reflecting the different positioning of the front turn signals. The Euro L
used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with the turn signals mounted in
L-model style housings on the body, while the Euro GTS used blacked-out
pre-L bumpers, with the turn signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for
mounting them to the body. In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes
in the front for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.
However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a one-piece rear
bumper. In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted on the compressible rams
like the USA cars, and instead was bolted solidly to the chassis with
T-shaped brackets.
>
> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but did away
with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and reverted to the
1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
>
>
>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
> car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
> years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would
expect
> Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was
in
> boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
>
> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
>
>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269) had
one-piece bumpers front and rear.
>
> It did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting
> holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
> extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652
> and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my
> mind. I know that's not conclusive. I was just hoping to deduce
from characteristics inherent to the
> production line, rather than word of mouth.
>
>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end sheetmetal
does the car have? If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with small indentations to
clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted in the bumpers, that is
fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro GTS. If it has the pods for
mounting the turn signals on the body, then it's a Pantera L of some
sort--most likely a European L if there are no holes for the front bumper
rams.
>
>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
> present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not
> Grp 4 or 5 size.
>
>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
fenders. They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on top of
the standard fenders.
>
>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
> perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even
> consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting
GTS
> style flares back on it.
>
>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to go
through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the fenders that
were cut away and lost?
>
> > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no
> clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of
> course its LHD. Hmmmm.
>
>>>> LEATHER dash? Or vinyl? Euro L Panteras that I've seen all had the
later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any Euro L Panteras
that are as early as yours is. I would imagine (read: guess) that an early
Euro L would have a standard vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
>
> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn signal pods
on the body. If they are there, it's an L of some sort. If not, it's a
Euro GTS. Of course we could end all speculation immediately if you just
requested a Marti report! If you request a Marti report, and he has one to
offer up to you, then that definitively identifies your car as a USA
L-model that somebody has been horsing around with. If they come back with
'no record found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the
pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the other.
>
> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason to
assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this specific
car, either. If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it would have had a
one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro GTS-specific thing. But
somebody could easily have swapped it for a standard two-pod dash somewhere
along the way?
>
> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
>
> Mike
>
>
_______________________________________________


Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
the links above.

Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
the archiving of list messages.
-------------- next part --------------
Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn signal
"pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will research
the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but vinyl
two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
original.A
As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the
record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
Thank you.A
On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
<[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:

> Cullen wrote:
>
>
>
>A A A Hi All,
>A A A I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based
on its

>A A A characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences
in the sheet

>A A A metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
timeframe?
>A A A I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
GTS

>A A A cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
>A A A Thank you so much!!
>
>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.A That is, it depends on the
specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
>
> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.A What appears to
be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so
could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with
GTS cosmetic features.A It has no cutouts for the reflector lights
in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot
light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker
lights the USA cars had.A It has GTS flares, the traditional red
paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro
GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the
beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).A Oddly, it
has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built
that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the
prototype of the breed).
>
> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and
rear.A In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a
full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.A
Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras
not receiving them.
>
> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
(#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
Pre-L sheetmetal.A The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
signals.A The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with
the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body,
while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn
signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the
body.A In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front
for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.A
However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a
one-piece rear bumper.A In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted
on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted
solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
>
> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.

>
>
>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
my

>A A A car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car
for many

>A A A years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I
would expect
>A A A Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car,
it was in
>A A A boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
>

> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
>
>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
>
> ItA did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
mounting

>A A A holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or
that
>A A A extensive front end work has been done. The registry also
shows 4652

>A A A and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
question in my
>A A A mind. I know that's not conclusive.A A A I was just
hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the

>A A A production line, rather than word of mouth.
>

>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
sheetmetal does the car have?A If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with
small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted
in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro
GTS.A If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body,
then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if
there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
>
>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
not

>A A A present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
size, not
>A A A Grp 4 or 5 size.
>

>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
fenders.A They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on
top of the standard fenders.

>
>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
>A A A perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I
didn't even
>A A A consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
putting GTS
>A A A style flares back on it.
>

>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to
go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the
fenders that were cut away and lost?
>
>A A A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather
wrapped, no

>A A A clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market
car. Of
>A A A course its LHD. Hmmmm.
>

>>>> LEATHER dash?A Or vinyl?A Euro L Panteras that I've seen all
had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any
Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.A I would imagine
(read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
>
> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
signal pods on the body.A If they are there, it's an L of some
sort.A If not, it's a Euro GTS.A Of course we could end all
speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report!A If
you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then
that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that somebody
has been horsing around with.A If they come back with 'no record
found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the
pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the
other.
>
> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
specific car, either.A If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it
would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro
GTS-specific thing.A But somebody could easily have swapped it for
a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
>
> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
>
> Mike

>
>
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[2]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[3]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

1. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
2. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
3. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:48:01 -0800
From: Paul A Rimov <rimovp at gmail.com>
To: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
Cc: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>, Email List Address For Posting
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
car
Message-ID: <7FF61A43-F1DA-4884-AA4D-490E747386A0 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii

Um why does the sheet metal look a half inch thick when looking into the side maker holes? 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 13, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn signal
> "pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will research
> the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but vinyl
> two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
> original.A
> As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the
> record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
> Thank you.A
> On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
> <[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> 
>> Cullen wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> A A A Hi All,
>> A A A I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based
> on its
> 
>> A A A characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences
> in the sheet
> 
>> A A A metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
> timeframe?
>> A A A I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
> GTS
> 
>> A A A cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
>> A A A Thank you so much!!
>> 
>>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.A That is, it depends on the
> specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
>> 
>> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.A What appears to
> be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so
> could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with
> GTS cosmetic features.A It has no cutouts for the reflector lights
> in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot
> light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker
> lights the USA cars had.A It has GTS flares, the traditional red
> paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro
> GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the
> beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).A Oddly, it
> has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built
> that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the
> prototype of the breed).
>> 
>> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
> with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and
> rear.A In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a
> full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
> cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
> was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.A
> Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras
> not receiving them.
>> 
>> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
> (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
> through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
> Pre-L sheetmetal.A The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
> different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
> signals.A The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with
> the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body,
> while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn
> signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the
> body.A In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front
> for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.A
> However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a
> one-piece rear bumper.A In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted
> on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted
> solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
>> 
>> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
> did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
> reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
> my
> 
>> A A A car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car
> for many
> 
>> A A A years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I
> would expect
>> A A A Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car,
> it was in
>> A A A boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
>> 
> 
>> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
>> 
>>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
> had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
>> 
>> ItA did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
> mounting
> 
>> A A A holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or
> that
>> A A A extensive front end work has been done. The registry also
> shows 4652
> 
>> A A A and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
> question in my
>> A A A mind. I know that's not conclusive.A A  A I was just
> hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
> 
>> A A A production line, rather than word of mouth.
>> 
> 
>>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
> sheetmetal does the car have?A If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with
> small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted
> in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro
> GTS.A If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body,
> then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if
> there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
>> 
>>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
> not
> 
>> A A A present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
> size, not
>> A A A Grp 4 or 5 size.
>> 
> 
>>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
> fenders.A They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on
> top of the standard fenders.
> 
>> 
>>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
>> A A A perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I
> didn't even
>> A A A consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
> putting GTS
>> A A A style flares back on it.
>> 
> 
>>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to
> go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the
> fenders that were cut away and lost?
>> 
>> A A A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather
> wrapped, no
> 
>> A A A clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market
> car. Of
>> A A A course its LHD. Hmmmm.
>> 
> 
>>>>> LEATHER dash?A Or vinyl?A Euro L Panteras that I've seen all
> had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any
> Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.A I would imagine
> (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
> vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
>> 
>> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
> signal pods on the body.A If they are there, it's an L of some
> sort.A If not, it's a Euro GTS.A Of course we could end all
> speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report!A If
> you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then
> that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that somebody
> has been horsing around with.A If they come back with 'no record
> found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the
> pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the
> other.
>> 
>> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
> to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
> specific car, either.A If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it
> would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro
> GTS-specific thing.A But somebody could easily have swapped it for
> a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
>> 
>> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
>> 
>> Mike
> 
>> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [2]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [3]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> or approve the archiving of list messages.
> 
> References
> 
> 1. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 2. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> 3. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
> 
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.


------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:17:54 -0600
From: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
To: Paul A Rimov <rimovp at gmail.com>
Cc: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>, Email List Address For Posting
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
car
Message-ID:
<CAFwr-MWpMxno8HRi5gdBiOsM9m84yNtmnD0Me3URj83UE-mHKw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Well...since my car is so far apart I can see that they are flanged, with
the sheet metal turned in to accept the light housing.

Woohoo! I got to answer a question. Hope I got it right.

Cullen.

On Dec 13, 2016 6:48 PM, "Paul A Rimov" <rimovp at gmail.com> wrote:

> Um why does the sheet metal look a half inch thick when looking into the
> side maker holes?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 13, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn signal
> > "pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will research
> > the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but vinyl
> > two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
> > original.A
> > As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the
> > record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
> > Thank you.A
> > On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
> > <[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Cullen wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> A A A Hi All,
> >> A A A I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based
> > on its
> >
> >> A A A characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences
> > in the sheet
> >
> >> A A A metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
> > timeframe?
> >> A A A I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
> > GTS
> >
> >> A A A cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
> >> A A A Thank you so much!!
> >>
> >>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.A That is, it depends on the
> > specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
> >>
> >> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.A What appears to
> > be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so
> > could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with
> > GTS cosmetic features.A It has no cutouts for the reflector lights
> > in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot
> > light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker
> > lights the USA cars had.A It has GTS flares, the traditional red
> > paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro
> > GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the
> > beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).A Oddly, it
> > has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built
> > that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the
> > prototype of the breed).
> >>
> >> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
> > with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and
> > rear.A In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a
> > full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
> > cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
> > was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.A
> > Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras
> > not receiving them.
> >>
> >> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
> > (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
> > through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
> > Pre-L sheetmetal.A The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
> > different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
> > signals.A The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with
> > the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body,
> > while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn
> > signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the
> > body.A In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front
> > for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.A
> > However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a
> > one-piece rear bumper.A In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted
> > on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted
> > solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
> >>
> >> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
> > did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
> > reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
> > my
> >
> >> A A A car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car
> > for many
> >
> >> A A A years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I
> > would expect
> >> A A A Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car,
> > it was in
> >> A A A boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
> >>
> >
> >> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
> >>
> >>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
> > had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
> >>
> >> ItA did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
> > mounting
> >
> >> A A A holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or
> > that
> >> A A A extensive front end work has been done. The registry also
> > shows 4652
> >
> >> A A A and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
> > question in my
> >> A A A mind. I know that's not conclusive.A  A A I was just
> > hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
> >
> >> A A A production line, rather than word of mouth.
> >>
> >
> >>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
> > sheetmetal does the car have?A If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with
> > small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted
> > in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro
> > GTS.A If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body,
> > then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if
> > there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
> >>
> >>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
> > not
> >
> >> A A A present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
> > size, not
> >> A A A Grp 4 or 5 size.
> >>
> >
> >>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
> > fenders.A They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on
> > top of the standard fenders.
> >
> >>
> >>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
> >> A A A perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I
> > didn't even
> >> A A A consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
> > putting GTS
> >> A A A style flares back on it.
> >>
> >
> >>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to
> > go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the
> > fenders that were cut away and lost?
> >>
> >> A A A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather
> > wrapped, no
> >
> >> A A A clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market
> > car. Of
> >> A A A course its LHD. Hmmmm.
> >>
> >
> >>>>> LEATHER dash?A Or vinyl?A Euro L Panteras that I've seen all
> > had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any
> > Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.A I would imagine
> > (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
> > vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
> >>
> >> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
> > signal pods on the body.A If they are there, it's an L of some
> > sort.A If not, it's a Euro GTS.A Of course we could end all
> > speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report!A If
> > you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then
> > that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that somebody
> > has been horsing around with.A If they come back with 'no record
> > found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the
> > pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the
> > other.
> >>
> >> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
> > to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
> > specific car, either.A If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it
> > would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro
> > GTS-specific thing.A But somebody could easily have swapped it for
> > a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
> >>
> >> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
> >>
> >> Mike
> >
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [2]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > [3]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> > use the links above.
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> > list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> > or approve the archiving of list messages.
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > 2. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > 3. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
> the archiving of list messages.
>
-------------- next part --------------
Well...since my car is so far apart I can see that they are flanged,
with the sheet metal turned in to accept the light housing.A
Woohoo! I got to answer a question. Hope I got it right.A
Cullen.A

On Dec 13, 2016 6:48 PM, "Paul A Rimov" <[1]rimovp at gmail.com> wrote:

Um why does the sheet metal look a half inch thick when looking into
the side maker holes?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Dec 13, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Cullen McCann
<[2]cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>A A Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the
turn signal
>A A "pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will
research
>A A the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash
but vinyl
>A A two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
>A A original.A
>A A As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should
set the
>A A record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
>A A Thank you.A
>A A On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
>A A <[1][3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>
>> Cullen wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> AA AA AA Hi All,
>> AA AA AA I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body
tub based
>A A on its
>
>> AA AA AA characteristics.AA Are there any recognizable
differences
>A A A in the sheet
>
>> AA AA AA metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the
same
>A A timeframe?
>> AA AA AA I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin.
Do Euro
>A A GTS
>
>> AA AA AA cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the
steel?
>> AA AA AA Thank you so much!!
>>
>>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.AA That is, it depends on the
>A A A specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was
built.
>>
>> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.AA What appears
to
>A A A be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from
memory so
>A A A could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European
Pre-L with
>A A A GTS cosmetic features.AA It has no cutouts for the
reflector lights
>A A A in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a
round dot
>A A A light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular
side marker
>A A A lights the USA cars had.AA It has GTS flares, the
traditional red
>A A A paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim,
and Euro
>A A A GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up
to the
>A A A beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).AA
Oddly, it
>A A A has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that
was built
>A A A that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was
the
>A A A prototype of the breed).
>>
>> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
>A A A with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights
front and
>A A A rear.AA In front, while the chrome surround was used,
instead of a
>A A A full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored
sheetmetal with a
>A A A cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome
surround
>A A A was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no
light.A
>A A A Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS
Panteras
>A A A not receiving them.
>>
>> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
>A A A (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while
even
>A A A through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover
Pantera
>A A A Pre-L sheetmetal.AA The noses of the Pre-L and L-model
cars are
>A A A different, reflecting the different positioning of the
front turn
>A A A signals.AA The Euro L used simple chrome blade front
bumpers, with
>A A A the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the
body,
>A A A while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the
turn
>A A A signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them
to the
>A A A body.AA In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in
the front
>A A A for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only
thing.A
>A A A However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used
a
>A A A one-piece rear bumper.AA In at least some cases, it wasn't
mounted
>A A A on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was
bolted
>A A A solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
>>
>> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
>A A A did away with the rectangular body openings for the side
markers and
>A A A reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front
only.
>
>>
>>
>>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret.
Its
>A A my
>
>> AA AA AA car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's
car
>A A A for many
>
>> AA AA AA years, was destined to be a race car but never
happened. I
>A A would expect
>> AA AA AA Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a
parts car,
>A A it was in
>> AA AA AA boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
>>
>
>> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
>>
>>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
>A A A had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
>>
>> ItAA did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
>A A A mounting
>
>> AA AA AA holes and I see no evidence that they have been
filled or
>A A that
>> AA AA AA extensive front end work has been done. The registry
also
>A A shows 4652
>
>> AA AA AA and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
>A A A question in my
>> AA AA AA mind. I know that's not conclusive.AA AA AA I was
just
>A A A hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
>
>> AA AA AA production line, rather than word of mouth.
>>
>
>>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
>A A A sheetmetal does the car have?AA If it has pre-L
sheetmetal, with
>A A A small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals
mounted
>A A A in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a
Euro
>A A A GTS.AA If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on
the body,
>A A A then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European
L if
>A A A there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
>>
>>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
>A A A not
>
>> AA AA AA present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a
smaller
>A A size, not
>> AA AA AA Grp 4 or 5 size.
>>
>
>>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut
the
>A A A fenders.AA They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit
right on
>A A A top of the standard fenders.
>
>>
>>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
>> AA AA AA perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed,
I
>A A didn't even
>> AA AA AA consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was
planning on
>A A putting GTS
>> AA AA AA style flares back on it.
>>
>
>>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want
to
>A A A go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of
the
>A A A fenders that were cut away and lost?
>>
>> AA AA A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin.
leather
>A A A wrapped, no
>
>> AA AA AA clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA
market
>A A car. Of
>> AA AA AA course its LHD. Hmmmm.
>>
>
>>>>> LEATHER dash?AA Or vinyl?AA Euro L Panteras that I've seen
all
>A A A had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't
seen any
>A A A Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.AA I would
imagine
>A A A (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
>A A A vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
>>
>> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
>A A A signal pods on the body.AA If they are there, it's an L of
some
>A A A sort.AA If not, it's a Euro GTS.AA Of course we could end
all
>A A A speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti
report!AA If
>A A A you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to
you, then
>A A A that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that
somebody
>A A A has been horsing around with.AA If they come back with 'no
record
>A A A found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then
the
>A A A pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one
way, or the
>A A A other.
>>
>> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
>A A A to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original
to this
>A A A specific car, either.AA If it was a Euro GTS of that
vintage, it
>A A A would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a
Euro
>A A A GTS-specific thing.AA But somebody could easily have
swapped it for
>A A A a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
>>
>> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
>>
>> Mike
>
>>
>>
>A A _______________________________________________
>A A Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>A A DeTomaso mailing list
>A A [2][4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>A A [3][5]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe, etc.)
>A A use the links above.
>A A Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
forward any
>A A message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the
>A A list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive
>A A or approve the archiving of list messages.
>
> References
>
>A A 1. mailto:[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>A A 2. mailto:[7]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>A A 3. [8]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [9]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> [10]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
>
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
archive or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

1. mailto:rimovp at gmail.com
2. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
5. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
7. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
8. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
9. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
10. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:25:39 -0800
From: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
To: Paul A Rimov <rimovp at gmail.com>
Cc: Email List Address For Posting <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
car
Message-ID: <1EABCFF4-A9DC-4E56-BADF-578FF2A2B304 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii

Paul,

They aren't simple holes. The metal is stamped and rolled inwards to make a flange. 

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 13, 2016, at 16:48, Paul A Rimov <rimovp at gmail.com> wrote:

> Um why does the sheet metal look a half inch thick when looking into the side maker holes? 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 13, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn signal
>> "pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will research
>> the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but vinyl
>> two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
>> original.A
>> As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the
>> record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
>> Thank you.A
>> On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
>> <[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Cullen wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> A A A Hi All,
>>> A A A I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based
>> on its
>> 
>>> A A A characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences
>> in the sheet
>> 
>>> A A A metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
>> timeframe?
>>> A A A I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
>> GTS
>> 
>>> A A A cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
>>> A A A Thank you so much!!
>>> 
>>>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.A That is, it depends on the
>> specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
>>> 
>>> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.A What appears to
>> be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so
>> could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with
>> GTS cosmetic features.A It has no cutouts for the reflector lights
>> in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot
>> light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker
>> lights the USA cars had.A It has GTS flares, the traditional red
>> paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro
>> GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the
>> beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).A Oddly, it
>> has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built
>> that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the
>> prototype of the breed).
>>> 
>>> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
>> with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and
>> rear.A In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a
>> full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
>> cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
>> was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.A
>> Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras
>> not receiving them.
>>> 
>>> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
>> (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
>> through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
>> Pre-L sheetmetal.A The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
>> different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
>> signals.A The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with
>> the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body,
>> while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn
>> signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the
>> body.A In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front
>> for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.A
>> However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a
>> one-piece rear bumper.A In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted
>> on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted
>> solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
>>> 
>>> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
>> did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
>> reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
>> my
>> 
>>> A A A car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car
>> for many
>> 
>>> A A A years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I
>> would expect
>>> A A A Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car,
>> it was in
>>> A A A boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
>> 
>>> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
>>> 
>>>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
>> had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
>>> 
>>> ItA did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
>> mounting
>> 
>>> A A A holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or
>> that
>>> A A A extensive front end work has been done. The registry also
>> shows 4652
>> 
>>> A A A and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
>> question in my
>>> A A A mind. I know that's not conclusive.A  A A I was just
>> hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
>> 
>>> A A A production line, rather than word of mouth.
>> 
>>>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
>> sheetmetal does the car have?A If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with
>> small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted
>> in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro
>> GTS.A If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body,
>> then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if
>> there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
>>> 
>>>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
>> not
>> 
>>> A A A present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
>> size, not
>>> A A A Grp 4 or 5 size.
>> 
>>>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
>> fenders.A They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on
>> top of the standard fenders.
>> 
>>> 
>>>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
>>> A A A perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I
>> didn't even
>>> A A A consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
>> putting GTS
>>> A A A style flares back on it.
>> 
>>>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to
>> go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the
>> fenders that were cut away and lost?
>>> 
>>> A A A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather
>> wrapped, no
>> 
>>> A A A clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market
>> car. Of
>>> A A A course its LHD. Hmmmm.
>> 
>>>>>> LEATHER dash?A Or vinyl?A Euro L Panteras that I've seen all
>> had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any
>> Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.A I would imagine
>> (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
>> vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
>>> 
>>> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
>> signal pods on the body.A If they are there, it's an L of some
>> sort.A If not, it's a Euro GTS.A Of course we could end all
>> speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report!A If
>> you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then
>> that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that somebody
>> has been horsing around with.A If they come back with 'no record
>> found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the
>> pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the
>> other.
>>> 
>>> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
>> to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
>> specific car, either.A If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it
>> would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro
>> GTS-specific thing.A But somebody could easily have swapped it for
>> a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
>>> 
>>> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
>>> 
>>> Mike
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [2]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> [3]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>> use the links above.
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>> 
>> References
>> 
>> 1. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 2. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 3. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> 
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>> 
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.


------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 01:34:32 +0000
From: Emiliano Ballejos <mghibli7 at hotmail.com>
To: Paul A Rimov <rimovp at gmail.com>
Cc: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>, Email List Address For Posting
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
car
Message-ID:
<BY2PR1201MB1031FB4DF2FF6F15D02619E4949A0 at BY2PR1201MB1031.namprd12.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Because the edges are folded in to give added strength and so the light is not sitting on a sharp edge. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 13, 2016, at 5:48 PM, Paul A Rimov <rimovp at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Um why does the sheet metal look a half inch thick when looking into the side maker holes? 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 13, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn signal
>> "pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will research
>> the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but vinyl
>> two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
>> original.A
>> As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the
>> record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
>> Thank you.A
>> On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
>> <[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Cullen wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> A A A Hi All,
>>> A A A I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based
>> on its
>> 
>>> A A A characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences
>> in the sheet
>> 
>>> A A A metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
>> timeframe?
>>> A A A I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
>> GTS
>> 
>>> A A A cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
>>> A A A Thank you so much!!
>>> 
>>>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.A That is, it depends on the
>> specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
>>> 
>>> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.A What appears to
>> be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so
>> could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with
>> GTS cosmetic features.A It has no cutouts for the reflector lights
>> in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot
>> light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker
>> lights the USA cars had.A It has GTS flares, the traditional red
>> paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro
>> GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the
>> beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).A Oddly, it
>> has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built
>> that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the
>> prototype of the breed).
>>> 
>>> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
>> with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and
>> rear.A In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a
>> full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
>> cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
>> was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.A
>> Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras
>> not receiving them.
>>> 
>>> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
>> (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
>> through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
>> Pre-L sheetmetal.A The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
>> different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
>> signals.A The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with
>> the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body,
>> while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn
>> signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the
>> body.A In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front
>> for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.A
>> However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a
>> one-piece rear bumper.A In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted
>> on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted
>> solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
>>> 
>>> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
>> did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
>> reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
>> my
>> 
>>> A A A car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car
>> for many
>> 
>>> A A A years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I
>> would expect
>>> A A A Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car,
>> it was in
>>> A A A boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
>>> 
>> 
>>> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
>>> 
>>>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
>> had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
>>> 
>>> ItA did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
>> mounting
>> 
>>> A A A holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or
>> that
>>> A A A extensive front end work has been done. The registry also
>> shows 4652
>> 
>>> A A A and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
>> question in my
>>> A A A mind. I know that's not conclusive.A  A A I was just
>> hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
>> 
>>> A A A production line, rather than word of mouth.
>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
>> sheetmetal does the car have?A If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with
>> small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted
>> in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro
>> GTS.A If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body,
>> then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if
>> there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
>>> 
>>>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
>> not
>> 
>>> A A A present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
>> size, not
>>> A A A Grp 4 or 5 size.
>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
>> fenders.A They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on
>> top of the standard fenders.
>> 
>>> 
>>>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
>>> A A A perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I
>> didn't even
>>> A A A consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
>> putting GTS
>>> A A A style flares back on it.
>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to
>> go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the
>> fenders that were cut away and lost?
>>> 
>>> A A A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather
>> wrapped, no
>> 
>>> A A A clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market
>> car. Of
>>> A A A course its LHD. Hmmmm.
>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> LEATHER dash?A Or vinyl?A Euro L Panteras that I've seen all
>> had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any
>> Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.A I would imagine
>> (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
>> vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
>>> 
>>> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
>> signal pods on the body.A If they are there, it's an L of some
>> sort.A If not, it's a Euro GTS.A Of course we could end all
>> speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report!A If
>> you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then
>> that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that somebody
>> has been horsing around with.A If they come back with 'no record
>> found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the
>> pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the
>> other.
>>> 
>>> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
>> to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
>> specific car, either.A If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it
>> would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro
>> GTS-specific thing.A But somebody could easily have swapped it for
>> a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
>>> 
>>> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
>>> 
>>> Mike
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [2]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> [3]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>> use the links above.
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
>> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
>> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
>> or approve the archiving of list messages.
>> 
>> References
>> 
>> 1. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 2. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> 3. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> 
>> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
>> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> 
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
>> 
>> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
> 
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.


------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 22:20:41 -0500
From: MikeLDrew at aol.com
To: kenn_green at yahoo.com, detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd:? body differences - Euro GTS vs USA
market car
Message-ID: <1046c7a.58deda9c.45821489 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Mike,

Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights? 
5093 appears to have been modified to the front corner lights, and a closer to 
square rear corner light. The lights were lost before I bought the car. 
I bought a pair of round lights that were described as being for a Fiat and 
they fit. I have not found lights to fit the rear. 

>>>Ken,

You should look on the inside of the fenders for evidence of work done. I 
don't know if the cars that came with round dots in front and nothing in 
the back, started off with smooth fenders, or if De Tomaso welded in patches.

For sure, your rear lights are non-De Tomaso. In order to import it into 
the USA, it would have had to be retrofitted with rear marker lights, and 
whoever imported it just grabbed whatever was at hand to satisfy the DOT. 
That's also what Kirk Evans had to do with the Amerisport cars, which is why 
those cars have USA-made external side marker lights. The cars were built 
with only round dots in front and smooth panels in the rear; Kirk drilled 
holes to accommodate external lights.

Mike
-------------- next part --------------
Mike,
Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?
5093 appears to have been modified to the front corner lights, and a
closer to square rear corner light. The lights were lost before I
bought the car. I bought a pair of round lights that were described as
being for a Fiat and they fit. I have not found lights to fit the
rear.
>>>Ken,
You should look on the inside of the fenders for evidence of work
done. I don't know if the cars that came with round dots in front and
nothing in the back, started off with smooth fenders, or if De Tomaso
welded in patches.
For sure, your rear lights are non-De Tomaso. In order to import it
into the USA, it would have had to be retrofitted with rear marker
lights, and whoever imported it just grabbed whatever was at hand to
satisfy the DOT. That's also what Kirk Evans had to do with the
Amerisport cars, which is why those cars have USA-made external side
marker lights. The cars were built with only round dots in front and
smooth panels in the rear; Kirk drilled holes to accommodate external
lights.
Mike

------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 04:24:31 +0000 (UTC)
From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
To: "MikeLDrew at aol.com" <MikeLDrew at aol.com>,
"detomaso at server.detomasolist.com" <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd:? body differences - Euro GTS vs USA
market car
Message-ID: <1689990019.2655758.1481689471595 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Mike,
??? It is a Claude DuBois import.? The US front and rear side marker supports are still there, just covered over.? I wonder if?most the Ford years Panteras started out as US versions?? 
Ken 

On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:20 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:


? Mike,
? ? ? Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?
? 5093 appears to have been modified to the front corner lights, and a
? closer to square rear corner light.? The lights were lost before I
? bought the car.? I bought a pair of round lights that were described as
? being for a Fiat and they fit.? I have not found lights to fit the
? rear.
? >>>Ken,
? You should look on the inside of the fenders for evidence of work
? done.? I don't know if the cars that came with round dots in front and
? nothing in the back, started off with smooth fenders, or if De Tomaso
? welded in patches.
? For sure, your rear lights are non-De Tomaso.? In order to import it
? into the USA, it would have had to be retrofitted with rear marker
? lights, and whoever imported it just grabbed whatever was at hand to
? satisfy the DOT.? That's also what Kirk Evans had to do with the
? Amerisport cars, which is why those cars have USA-made external side
? marker lights.? The cars were built with only round dots in front and
? smooth panels in the rear; Kirk drilled holes to accommodate external
? lights.
? Mike

_______________________________________________


Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.

Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.


-------------- next part --------------
Mike,
It is a Claude DuBois import. The US front and rear side marker
supports are still there, just covered over. I wonder if most the Ford
years Panteras started out as US versions?
Ken
On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:20 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Mike,
Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?
5093 appears to have been modified to the front corner lights, and a
closer to square rear corner light. The lights were lost before I
bought the car. I bought a pair of round lights that were described
as
being for a Fiat and they fit. I have not found lights to fit the
rear.
>>>Ken,
You should look on the inside of the fenders for evidence of work
done. I don't know if the cars that came with round dots in front
and
nothing in the back, started off with smooth fenders, or if De Tomaso
welded in patches.
For sure, your rear lights are non-De Tomaso. In order to import it
into the USA, it would have had to be retrofitted with rear marker
lights, and whoever imported it just grabbed whatever was at hand to
satisfy the DOT. That's also what Kirk Evans had to do with the
Amerisport cars, which is why those cars have USA-made external side
marker lights. The cars were built with only round dots in front and
smooth panels in the rear; Kirk drilled holes to accommodate external
lights.
Mike
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[1]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

1. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 23:31:26 -0500
From: Patrick Orlando <patrickf.orlando at gmail.com>
To: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: [DeTomaso] Side Marker Lights
Message-ID:
<CAPVjhOS6enEmXsWWfQQog22CUNgCL_ZR7Yh-sroPSnV42mgGFw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Thats the FIRST thing I did to my car when painted was to remove them.
Looks great like its supposed to look. Patrick Orlando 1972 Yellow Pantera
S/N 4011
-------------- next part --------------
Thats the FIRST thing I did to my car when painted was to remove them.
Looks great like its supposed to look. Patrick Orlando 1972 Yellow
Pantera S/N 4011

------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 21:05:51 -0800
From: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
Cc: "detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
<detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd:? body differences - Euro GTS vs USA
market car
Message-ID: <FDF78B37-24B0-4C2E-8584-C7B53643AD67 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Ken,

Well, the sheetmetal was all stamped the same, probably, and the euro cars were then modified to suit specific lighting schemes....

Mike

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 13, 2016, at 8:24 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Mike,
> 
> It is a Claude DuBois import. The US front and rear side marker supports are still there, just covered over. I wonder if most the Ford years Panteras started out as US versions? 
> 
> Ken
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:20 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Mike,
> Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?
> 5093 appears to have been modified to the front corner lights, and a
> closer to square rear corner light. The lights were lost before I
> bought the car. I bought a pair of round lights that were described as
> being for a Fiat and they fit. I have not found lights to fit the
> rear.
> >>>Ken,
> You should look on the inside of the fenders for evidence of work
> done. I don't know if the cars that came with round dots in front and
> nothing in the back, started off with smooth fenders, or if De Tomaso
> welded in patches.
> For sure, your rear lights are non-De Tomaso.  In order to import it
> into the USA, it would have had to be retrofitted with rear marker
> lights, and whoever imported it just grabbed whatever was at hand to
> satisfy the DOT. That's also what Kirk Evans had to do with the
> Amerisport cars, which is why those cars have USA-made external side
> marker lights. The cars were built with only round dots in front and
> smooth panels in the rear; Kirk drilled holes to accommodate external
> lights.
> Mike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> 
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
> 
> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
> 
-------------- next part --------------
Ken,

Well, the sheetmetal was all stamped the same, probably, and the euro
cars were then modified to suit specific lighting schemes....

Mike
Sent from my iPad

On Dec 13, 2016, at 8:24 PM, Ken Green <[1]kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:

Mike,
It is a Claude DuBois import. The US front and rear side marker
supports are still there, just covered over. I wonder if most the Ford
years Panteras started out as US versions?
Ken
On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:20 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso
<[2]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
Mike,
Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?
5093 appears to have been modified to the front corner lights, and a
closer to square rear corner light. The lights were lost before I
bought the car. I bought a pair of round lights that were described
as
being for a Fiat and they fit. I have not found lights to fit the
rear.
>>>Ken,
You should look on the inside of the fenders for evidence of work
done. I don't know if the cars that came with round dots in front
and
nothing in the back, started off with smooth fenders, or if De Tomaso
welded in patches.
For sure, your rear lights are non-De Tomaso. In order to import it
into the USA, it would have had to be retrofitted with rear marker
lights, and whoever imported it just grabbed whatever was at hand to
satisfy the DOT. That's also what Kirk Evans had to do with the
Amerisport cars, which is why those cars have USA-made external side
marker lights. The cars were built with only round dots in front and
smooth panels in the rear; Kirk drilled holes to accommodate external
lights.
Mike
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[3]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
[4]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
or approve the archiving of list messages.

References

1. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
2. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
3. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
4. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 08:25:13 -0800
From: The DeTomaso Registry Guy <detomasoregistry at gmail.com>
To: "DeTomaso List" <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] FW: Archer Episode
Message-ID: <9BB6B7833908411DB57D2E8A5B233817 at BOSS3A>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"





_____ 

From: M Stewart 
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:01 PM
To: Admin at DeTomasoRegistry.org
Subject: Archer Episode



Titled "Deadly Prep" dated 41416 features a yellow early Euro bumper Pantera is background and then in a decent length car chase.
Details of animation are pretty good.



Archer is an animated spy series on F/X Network.

-------------- next part --------------

_______________________________________________________________________

From: M Stewart
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:01 PM
To: Admin at DeTomasoRegistry.org
Subject: Archer Episode


Titled "Deadly Prep" dated 41416 features a yellow early Euro bumper
Pantera is background and then in a decent length car chase. Details
of animation are pretty good.


Archer is an animated spy series on F/X Network.

------------------------------

Subject: Digest Footer

_______________________________________________
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso

Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve the archiving of list messages.


------------------------------

End of DeTomaso Digest, Vol 150, Issue 14
*****************************************
-------------- next part --------------
   Cullen, ALL narrow body GTS cars sold in Europe, the Middle East or in
   Australia or NZ were called 'GTS' by DeTomaso, all the way from 1971 to
   1989. Not very exclusive, I'm afraid unless the car was a GTS/Gr-3, and
   those cars were regular production with optional bolt-ons.
   -----Original Message-----
   From: detomaso-request <detomaso-request at server.detomasolist.com>
   To: detomaso <detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Sent: Wed, Dec 14, 2016 9:00 am
   Subject: DeTomaso Digest, Vol 150, Issue 14
   Send DeTomaso mailing list submissions to
   [1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
   [2]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
   detomaso-[3]request at server.detomasolist.com
   You can reach the person managing the list at
   detomaso-[4]owner at server.detomasolist.com
   When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
   than "Re: Contents of DeTomaso digest..."
   Daily Detomaso List Digest
   Today's Topics:
   1. body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Cullen McCann)
   2. Re: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Julian Kift)
   3. Re: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Cullen McCann)
   4. Re: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Julian Kift)
   5. Re: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   (Richard Greenblum)
   6. Re: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Cullen McCann)
   7. Re: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Julian Kift)
   8. Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Mike Drew)
   9. Re: Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   (Ken Green)
   10. Re: Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   (Cullen McCann)
   11. Re: Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   (Paul A Rimov)
   12. Re: Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   (Cullen McCann)
   13. Re: Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car (Mike Drew)
   14. Re: Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   (Emiliano Ballejos)
   15. Re: Fwd:? body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   ([5]MikeLDrew at aol.com)
   16. Re: Fwd:? body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   (Ken Green)
   17. Side Marker Lights (Patrick Orlando)
   18. Re: Fwd:? body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   (Mike Drew)
   19. FW: Archer Episode (The DeTomaso Registry Guy)
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------
   Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 13:42:48 -0600
   From: Cullen McCann <[6]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   To: Email List Address For Posting
   <[7]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Message-ID:
   <CAFwr-MWkOFZAVhd5cEoVTS=eF=[8]jJYGXeHwUepSMNp3D28vZJSg at mail.gmail.com>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
   Hi All,
   I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   metal
   on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
   the
   USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
   GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
   Thank you so much!!
   Cullen
   Yukon, OK
   -------------- next part --------------
   Hi All,
   I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based onA its
   characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe?
   I'm toldA the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin.A Do Euro GTS
   cars have any GT-specificA identifying marks in the steel?
   Thank you so much!!
   Cullen
   Yukon, OK
   ------------------------------
   Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:59:28 +0000
   From: Julian Kift <[9]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
   To: Cullen McCann <[10]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>, Email List Address For
   Posting <[11]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Message-ID:
   <[12]DM5PR18MB1323804059802A24FCBACC4D959B0 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod
   .outlook.com>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
   I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
   year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
   For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
   establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
   cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.
   Julian
   ________________________________
   From: DeTomaso <detomaso-[13]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
   of Cullen McCann <[14]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
   To: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Hi All,
   I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   metal
   on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
   the
   USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
   GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
   Thank you so much!!
   Cullen
   Yukon, OK
   -------------- next part --------------
   I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
   year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
   For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
   establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
   cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.
   Julian
   __________________________________________________________________
   From: DeTomaso <detomaso-[15]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
   of
   Cullen McCann <[16]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
   To: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Hi All,
   I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   metal
   on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
   the
   USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
   GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
   Thank you so much!!
   Cullen
   Yukon, OK
   ------------------------------
   Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 14:23:33 -0600
   From: Cullen McCann <[17]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   To: Julian Kift <[18]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   <[19]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Message-ID:
   <CAFwr-[20]MWfxGTSuQowga0sAs+rLrbm3y33jC3ZQFQvzt4S5Hz_kw at mail.gmail.com
   >
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
   Hi Julian!
   Thanks for the reply.
   Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
   car,
   which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many years, was
   destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect Ted to
   know,
   but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in boxes, and
   that's
   how I acquired it.
   A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It did
   not
   come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes and I
   see
   no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front end work
   has
   been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654 being euro GTS cars.
   Which
   simply raises the question in my mind. I know that's not conclusive.
   I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   production
   line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those characteristics
   were
   definitive, but If any body online does have history on the car, please
   contact me offline.
   thank you!! Cullen
   On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
   <[21]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
   wrote:
   > I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.?
   What
   > year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
   >
   >
   > For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
   > establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the
   Euro
   > cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not
   exclusively.
   >
   >
   > Julian
   >
   > ------------------------------
   > *From:* DeTomaso <detomaso-[22]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
   behalf of
   > Cullen McCann <[23]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
   > *To:* Email List Address For Posting
   > *Subject:* [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   >
   > Hi All,
   >
   > I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   > characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   metal
   > on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm
   told the
   > USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
   > GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
   >
   > Thank you so much!!
   >
   > Cullen
   > Yukon, OK
   >
   -------------- next part --------------
   Hi Julian!
   Thanks for the reply.
   Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
   car, which is late 72 L, 4653.A It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
   years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
   Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
   boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   AA USA marketA "L" car would have a large frontA bumper, correct? It
   did not come with one, andA it does not have shock bumper mounting
   holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
   extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652
   and 4654 beingA euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my
   mind.A I know that'sA notA conclusive.A
   I was justA hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent toA the
   production line, rather than word of mouth.A Didn't know if those
   characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
   history on the car, please contact me offline.
   thank you!! Cullen
   On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
   <[1][24]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
   I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
   year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
   For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
   establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
   cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.
   Julian
   A
   __________________________________________________________________
   From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-[25]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
   behalf
   of Cullen McCann <[3][26]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
   To: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   A
   Hi All,
   I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   metal
   on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
   the
   USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
   GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
   Thank you so much!!
   Cullen
   Yukon, OK
   References
   1. [27]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
   2. [28]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   3. [29]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   ------------------------------
   Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 20:30:37 +0000
   From: Julian Kift <[30]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
   To: Cullen McCann <[31]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   <[32]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Message-ID:
   <[33]DM5PR18MB13238CB0ACE56CEE6B2A6399959B0 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod
   .outlook.com>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
   Cullen,
   As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies as
   all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference in
   an Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper holes
   would be indicative of an Euro destined car to me. Does it have
   evidence of pot rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender flares? Do
   you have any other telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered dash, clock
   in the dash etc.?
   Julian
   ________________________________
   From: Cullen McCann <[34]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
   To: Julian Kift
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Hi Julian!
   Thanks for the reply.
   Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
   car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
   years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
   Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
   boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It did
   not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes and
   I see no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front
   end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654 being
   euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my mind. I know
   that's not conclusive.
   I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   production line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those
   characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
   history on the car, please contact me offline.
   thank you!! Cullen
   On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
   <[35]julian_kift at hotmail.com<[36]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com>>
   wrote:
   I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
   year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
   For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
   establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
   cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.
   Julian
   ________________________________
   From: DeTomaso
   <detomaso-[37]bounces at server.detomasolist.com<[38]mailto:detomaso-bounc
   es at server.detomasolist.com>> on behalf of Cullen McCann
   <[39]cmccann1972 at gmail.com<[40]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com>>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
   To: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Hi All,
   I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   metal
   on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
   the
   USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
   GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
   Thank you so much!!
   Cullen
   Yukon, OK
   -------------- next part --------------
   Cullen,
   As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies as
   all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference
   in an Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper holes
   would be indicative of an Euro destined car to me. Does it have
   evidence of pot rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender flares? Do
   you have any other telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered dash, clock
   in the dash etc.?
   Julian
   __________________________________________________________________
   From: Cullen McCann <[41]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
   To: Julian Kift
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Hi Julian!
   Thanks for the reply.
   Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
   car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
   years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
   Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
   boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It did
   not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes and
   I see no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front
   end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654
   being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my mind. I
   know that's not conclusive.
   I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   production line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those
   characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
   history on the car, please contact me offline.
   thank you!! Cullen
   On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
   <[1][42]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
   I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
   year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
   For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
   establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
   cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.
   Julian
   __________________________________________________________________
   From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-[43]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
   behalf
   of Cullen McCann <[3][44]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
   To: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Hi All,
   I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   metal
   on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
   the
   USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
   GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
   Thank you so much!!
   Cullen
   Yukon, OK
   References
   1. [45]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
   2. [46]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   3. [47]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   ------------------------------
   Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 14:45:40 -0600
   From: Richard Greenblum <[48]Richard at richardgreenblum.com>
   To: Julian Kift <[49]julian_kift at hotmail.com>, Cullen McCann
   <[50]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   <[51]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Message-ID: <D475B9ED.545AF%[52]Richard at richardgreenblum.com>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
   I think most of the Euro GTSs didn?t have flares.
   Richard
   Austin, TX
   From: DeTomaso <detomaso-[53]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf
   of
   Julian Kift <[54]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
   Date: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 14:30
   To: Cullen McCann <[55]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   <[56]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Cullen,
   As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies as
   all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference
   in an Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper holes
   would be indicative of an Euro destined car to me. Does it have
   evidence of pot rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender flares? Do
   you have any other telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered dash, clock
   in the dash etc.?
   Julian
   __________________________________________________________________
   From: Cullen McCann <[57]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
   To: Julian Kift
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Hi Julian!
   Thanks for the reply.
   Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
   car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
   years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
   Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
   boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It did
   not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes and
   I see no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front
   end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654
   being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my mind. I
   know that's not conclusive.
   I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   production line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those
   characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
   history on the car, please contact me offline.
   thank you!! Cullen
   On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
   <[1][58]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
   I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
   year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
   For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
   establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
   cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.
   Julian
   __________________________________________________________________
   From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-[59]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
   behalf
   of Cullen McCann <[3][60]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
   To: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Hi All,
   I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   metal
   on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
   the
   USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
   GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
   Thank you so much!!
   Cullen
   Yukon, OK
   References
   1. [61]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
   2. [62]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   3. [63]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [64]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   [65]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use
   the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list.
   They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
   approve
   the archiving of list messages.
   -------------- next part --------------
   I think most of the Euro GTSs didn't have flares.
   Richard
   Austin, TX
   From: DeTomaso <[1]detomaso-[66]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
   behalf
   of Julian Kift <[2][67]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
   Date: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 14:30
   To: Cullen McCann <[3][68]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   <[4][69]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Cullen,
   As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies
   as
   all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference
   in an Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper
   holes
   would be indicative of an Euro destined car to me. Does it have
   evidence of pot rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender flares? Do
   you have any other telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered dash,
   clock
   in the dash etc.?
   Julian
   __________________________________________________________________
   From: Cullen McCann <[5][70]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
   To: Julian Kift
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
   car
   Hi Julian!
   Thanks for the reply.
   Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
   my
   car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
   years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would
   expect
   Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was
   in
   boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It
   did
   not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes
   and
   I see no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front
   end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654
   being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my mind. I
   know that's not conclusive.
   I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   production line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those
   characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
   history on the car, please contact me offline.
   thank you!! Cullen
   On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
   <[1][6][71]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
   I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.?
   What
   year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
   For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
   establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the
   Euro
   cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not
   exclusively.
   Julian
   __________________________________________________________________
   From: DeTomaso <[2][7]detomaso-[72]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
   behalf
   of Cullen McCann <[3][8][73]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
   To: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Hi All,
   I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the
   sheet
   metal
   on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm
   told
   the
   USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
   GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
   Thank you so much!!
   Cullen
   Yukon, OK
   References
   1. [9][74]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
   2. [10][75]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   3. [11][76]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [12][77]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   [13][78]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   References
   1. [79]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   2. [80]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
   3. [81]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   4. [82]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   5. [83]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   6. [84]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
   7. [85]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   8. [86]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   9. [87]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
   10. [88]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   11. [89]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   12. [90]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   13. [91]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   ------------------------------
   Message: 6
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 14:51:46 -0600
   From: Cullen McCann <[92]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   To: Julian Kift <[93]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   <[94]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Message-ID:
   <CAFwr-[95]MXTgmMkJK56AJBgQ0XWbamGLP7zeAxNJPqH8yqtVB797Q at mail.gmail.com
   >
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
   It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
   present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not
   Grp 4
   or 5 size. Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
   perimeter.
   With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even consider it
   when I
   first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting GTS style flares back
   on
   it.
   It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no
   clock.
   So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of course its
   LHD.
   Hmmmm.
   Cullen
   On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Julian Kift
   <[96]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
   wrote:
   > Cullen,
   >
   >
   > As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies
   as
   > all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference
   in an
   > Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper holes
   would
   > be indicative of an Euro destined car to me. Does it have evidence of
   pot
   > rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender flares? Do you have any
   other
   > telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered dash, clock in the dash etc.?
   >
   >
   > Julian
   >
   > ------------------------------
   > *From:* Cullen McCann <[97]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
   > *To:* Julian Kift
   > *Cc:* Email List Address For Posting
   > *Subject:* Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
   car
   >
   > Hi Julian!
   >
   > Thanks for the reply.
   >
   > Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
   my
   > car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
   years,
   > was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect Ted
   to
   > know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
   boxes, and
   > that's how I acquired it.
   >
   > A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It did
   not
   > come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes and I
   see
   > no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front end
   work has
   > been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654 being euro GTS cars.
   Which
   > simply raises the question in my mind. I know that's not conclusive.
   >
   > I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   > production line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those
   > characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
   history
   > on the car, please contact me offline.
   >
   > thank you!! Cullen
   >
   > On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
   <[98]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
   > wrote:
   >
   >> I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.?
   What
   >> year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
   >>
   >>
   >> For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
   >> establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the
   Euro
   >> cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not
   exclusively.
   >>
   >>
   >> Julian
   >>
   >> ------------------------------
   >> *From:* DeTomaso <detomaso-[99]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
   behalf of
   >> Cullen McCann <[100]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   >> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
   >> *To:* Email List Address For Posting
   >> *Subject:* [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   >>
   >> Hi All,
   >>
   >> I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   >> characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   >> metal
   >> on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm
   told
   >> the
   >> USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
   >> GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
   >>
   >> Thank you so much!!
   >>
   >> Cullen
   >> Yukon, OK
   >>
   >
   >
   -------------- next part --------------
   ItA DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
   present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not
   Grp 4 or 5 size. Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
   perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even
   consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting GTS
   style flares back on it.
   It does have aA two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no
   clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of
   course its LHD. Hmmmm.
   Cullen
   On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Julian Kift
   <[1][101]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
   Cullen,
   As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies as
   all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference
   inA an Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper
   holes would beA indicativeA ofA an Euro destined car to me. Does it
   have evidence of pot rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender
   flares?A Do you have any other telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered
   dash, clock in the dash etc.?
   Julian
   A
   __________________________________________________________________
   From: Cullen McCann <[2][102]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
   To: Julian Kift
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   A
   Hi Julian!
   Thanks for the reply.
   Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
   car, which is late 72 L, 4653.A It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
   years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
   Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
   boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   AA USA marketA "L" car would have a large frontA bumper, correct? It
   did not come with one, andA it does not have shock bumper mounting
   holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
   extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652
   and 4654 beingA euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my
   mind.A I know that'sA notA conclusive.A
   I was justA hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent toA the
   production line, rather than word of mouth.A Didn't know if those
   characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
   history on the car, please contact me offline.
   thank you!! Cullen
   On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
   <[3][103]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
   I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
   year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
   For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
   establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
   cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.
   Julian
   A
   __________________________________________________________________
   From: DeTomaso <[4]detomaso-[104]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
   behalf
   of Cullen McCann <[5][105]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
   To: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   A
   Hi All,
   I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   metal
   on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
   the
   USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
   GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
   Thank you so much!!
   Cullen
   Yukon, OK
   References
   1. [106]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
   2. [107]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   3. [108]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
   4. [109]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   5. [110]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   ------------------------------
   Message: 7
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 20:55:51 +0000
   From: Julian Kift <[111]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
   To: Cullen McCann <[112]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   <[113]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Message-ID:
   <[114]DM5PR18MB1323C5141C21149929F39E88959B0 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.pro
   d.outlook.com>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
   Perhaps you could try to source a Marti report, if available it would
   confirm a US delivered car.
   Julian
   ________________________________
   From: Cullen McCann <[115]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:51:46 PM
   To: Julian Kift
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
   present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not
   Grp 4 or 5 size. Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
   perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even
   consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting GTS
   style flares back on it.
   It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no
   clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of
   course its LHD. Hmmmm.
   Cullen
   On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Julian Kift
   <[116]julian_kift at hotmail.com<[117]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com>>
   wrote:
   Cullen,
   As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies as
   all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference in
   an Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper holes
   would be indicative of an Euro destined car to me. Does it have
   evidence of pot rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender flares? Do
   you have any other telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered dash, clock
   in the dash etc.?
   Julian
   ________________________________
   From: Cullen McCann
   <[118]cmccann1972 at gmail.com<[119]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com>>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
   To: Julian Kift
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Hi Julian!
   Thanks for the reply.
   Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
   car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
   years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
   Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
   boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It did
   not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes and
   I see no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front
   end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654 being
   euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my mind. I know
   that's not conclusive.
   I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   production line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those
   characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
   history on the car, please contact me offline.
   thank you!! Cullen
   On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
   <[120]julian_kift at hotmail.com<[121]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com>>
   wrote:
   I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
   year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
   For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
   establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
   cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.
   Julian
   ________________________________
   From: DeTomaso
   <detomaso-[122]bounces at server.detomasolist.com<[123]mailto:detomaso-bou
   nces at server.detomasolist.com>> on behalf of Cullen McCann
   <[124]cmccann1972 at gmail.com<[125]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com>>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
   To: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Hi All,
   I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   metal
   on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
   the
   USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
   GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
   Thank you so much!!
   Cullen
   Yukon, OK
   -------------- next part --------------
   Perhaps you could try to source a Marti report, if available it
   would confirm a US delivered car.
   Julian
   __________________________________________________________________
   From: Cullen McCann <[126]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:51:46 PM
   To: Julian Kift
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
   present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not
   Grp 4 or 5 size. Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
   perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even
   consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting GTS
   style flares back on it.
   It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no
   clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of
   course its LHD. Hmmmm.
   Cullen
   On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Julian Kift
   <[1][127]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
   Cullen,
   As William attested there is likely no real difference in the bodies as
   all came from a single production line; that is to say no difference
   in an Euro regular car vs. an Euro GTS. A 4653 VIN without bumper holes
   would be indicative of an Euro destined car to me. Does it have
   evidence of pot rivet holes for the GTS fiberglass fender flares? Do
   you have any other telltale parts e.g. mouse hair covered dash, clock
   in the dash etc.?
   Julian
   __________________________________________________________________
   From: Cullen McCann <[2][128]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:23:33 PM
   To: Julian Kift
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Hi Julian!
   Thanks for the reply.
   Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its my
   car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
   years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would expect
   Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was in
   boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct? It did
   not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting holes and
   I see no evidence that they have been filled or that extensive front
   end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652 and 4654
   being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my mind. I
   know that's not conclusive.
   I was just hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   production line, rather than word of mouth. Didn't know if those
   characteristics were definitive, but If any body online does have
   history on the car, please contact me offline.
   thank you!! Cullen
   On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Julian Kift
   <[3][129]julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
   I assume you have tried researching the VIN in the registry etc.? What
   year is the car? Maybe someone on list would recognize the VIN?
   For a later VIN car the lack of shock bumper mounting holes could
   establish it as a Euro car, but not that it was a GTS. More of the Euro
   cars seem to employ the small button side marker, but not exclusively.
   Julian
   __________________________________________________________________
   From: DeTomaso <[4]detomaso-[130]bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on
   behalf
   of Cullen McCann <[5][131]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 11:42:48 AM
   To: Email List Address For Posting
   Subject: [DeTomaso] body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car
   Hi All,
   I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   metal
   on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe? I'm told
   the
   USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS cars have any
   GT-specific identifying marks in the steel?
   Thank you so much!!
   Cullen
   Yukon, OK
   References
   1. [132]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
   2. [133]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   3. [134]mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
   4. [135]mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com
   5. [136]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   ------------------------------
   Message: 8
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 14:16:31 -0800
   From: Mike Drew <[137]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
   To: DeTomaso Mail List <[138]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: [DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
   car
   Message-ID: <C71A043B-7666-4E58-A065-[139]720E1F5BF2FD at aol.com>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
   > Cullen wrote:
   >
   >
   >
   > Hi All,
   > I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   > characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   > metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe?
   > I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS
   > cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
   > Thank you so much!!
   >
   >>>> The answer is, 'that depends'. That is, it depends on the specific
   nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
   >
   > The very first cars were produced in early 1972. What appears to be
   the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so could
   well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with GTS
   cosmetic features. It has no cutouts for the reflector lights in the
   rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot light on the
   front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker lights the USA
   cars had. It has GTS flares, the traditional red paint with satin black
   hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro GTS graphics on the side
   (with the satin black extending up to the beltline instead of just the
   top of the rocker panels). Oddly, it has a two-pod dash, the only Euro
   GTS I've ever seen that was built that way (which lends credence to the
   theory that it was the prototype of the breed).
   >
   > Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies, with
   the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and rear. In
   front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a full-sized
   light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
   cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
   was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.
   Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras not
   receiving them.
   >
   > Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
   (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
   through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
   Pre-L sheetmetal. The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
   different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
   signals. The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with the
   turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body, while the
   Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn signal in the
   bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the body. In both
   cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front for the one-piece
   front bumper, which was a USA-only thing. However, some Euro GTS cars,
   and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a one-piece rear bumper. In at least some
   cases, it wasn't mounted on the compressible rams like the USA cars,
   and instead was bolted solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
   >
   > The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but did
   away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
   reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
   >
   >
   >> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
   my
   > car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
   > years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would
   expect
   > Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was
   in
   > boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   >
   > A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
   >
   >>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269) had
   one-piece bumpers front and rear.
   >
   > It did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting
   > holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
   > extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652
   > and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my
   > mind. I know that's not conclusive. I was just hoping to deduce from
   characteristics inherent to the
   > production line, rather than word of mouth.
   >
   >>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end sheetmetal
   does the car have? If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with small indentations
   to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted in the bumpers, that
   is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro GTS. If it has the pods for
   mounting the turn signals on the body, then it's a Pantera L of some
   sort--most likely a European L if there are no holes for the front
   bumper rams.
   >
   >> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
   > present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not
   > Grp 4 or 5 size.
   >
   >>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
   fenders. They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on top of
   the standard fenders.
   >
   >> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
   > perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even
   > consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting
   GTS
   > style flares back on it.
   >
   >>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to go
   through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the fenders that
   were cut away and lost?
   >
   > > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no
   > clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of
   > course its LHD. Hmmmm.
   >
   >>>> LEATHER dash? Or vinyl? Euro L Panteras that I've seen all had the
   later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any Euro L
   Panteras that are as early as yours is. I would imagine (read: guess)
   that an early Euro L would have a standard vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
   >
   > So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn signal
   pods on the body. If they are there, it's an L of some sort. If not,
   it's a Euro GTS. Of course we could end all speculation immediately if
   you just requested a Marti report! If you request a Marti report, and
   he has one to offer up to you, then that definitively identifies your
   car as a USA L-model that somebody has been horsing around with. If
   they come back with 'no record found' for your VIN, that means it's a
   Euro car, and then the pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to
   believe one way, or the other.
   >
   > Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason to
   assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
   specific car, either. If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it would
   have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro GTS-specific
   thing. But somebody could easily have swapped it for a standard two-pod
   dash somewhere along the way?
   >
   > Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
   >
   > Mike
   >
   >
   ------------------------------
   Message: 9
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 22:47:53 +0000 (UTC)
   From: Ken Green <[140]kenn_green at yahoo.com>
   To: Mike Drew <[141]MikeLDrew at aol.com>, DeTomaso Mail List
   <[142]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA
   market car
   Message-ID: <[143]1340652307.2481924.1481669274008 at mail.yahoo.com>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
   Mike,
   ??? Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights??
   5093 appears to have?been modified
   to the front corner lights, and a closer to square rear corner light.?
   The lights were lost before I bought the car.? I bought a pair of round
   lights that were described as being for a Fiat and they fit.? I have
   not found lights to fit the rear.
   Ken
   On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:16 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso
   <[144]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   > Cullen wrote:
   >? ?
   >? ?
   >
   >? ? ? Hi All,
   >? ? ? I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on
   its
   >? ? ? characteristics.? Are there any recognizable differences in the
   sheet
   >? ? ? metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
   timeframe?
   >? ? ? I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
   GTS
   >? ? ? cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
   >? ? ? Thank you so much!!
   >
   >>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.? That is, it depends on the
   specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
   >
   > The very first cars were produced in early 1972.? What appears to be
   the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so could
   well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with GTS
   cosmetic features.? It has no cutouts for the reflector lights in the
   rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot light on the
   front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker lights the USA
   cars had.? It has GTS flares, the traditional red paint with satin
   black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro GTS graphics on the
   side (with the satin black extending up to the beltline instead of just
   the top of the rocker panels).? Oddly, it has a two-pod dash, the only
   Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built that way (which lends credence
   to the theory that it was the prototype of the breed).
   >
   > Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies, with
   the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and rear.? In
   front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a full-sized
   light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
   cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
   was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.?
   Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras not
   receiving them.
   >
   > Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
   (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
   through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
   Pre-L sheetmetal.? The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
   different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
   signals.? The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with the
   turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body, while the
   Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn signal in the
   bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the body.? In both
   cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front for the one-piece
   front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.? However, some Euro GTS cars,
   and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a one-piece rear bumper.? In at least
   some cases, it wasn't mounted on the compressible rams like the USA
   cars, and instead was bolted solidly to the chassis with T-shaped
   brackets.
   >
   > The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but did
   away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
   reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
   >
   >
   >> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
   my
   >? ? ? car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for
   many
   >? ? ? years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would
   expect
   >? ? ? Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it
   was in
   >? ? ? boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   >? ? ?
   > A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
   >
   >>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269) had
   one-piece bumpers front and rear.
   >
   > It? did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting
   >? ? ? holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
   >? ? ? extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows
   4652
   >? ? ? and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question
   in my
   >? ? ? mind. I know that's not conclusive.? ? ? I was just hoping to
   deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   >? ? ? production line, rather than word of mouth.
   >
   >>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end sheetmetal
   does the car have?? If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with small indentations
   to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted in the bumpers, that
   is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro GTS.? If it has the pods
   for mounting the turn signals on the body, then it's a Pantera L of
   some sort--most likely a European L if there are no holes for the front
   bumper rams.
   >
   >> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
   >? ? ? present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
   size, not
   >? ? ? Grp 4 or 5 size.
   >
   >>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
   fenders.? They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on top
   of the standard fenders.
   >
   >> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
   >? ? ? perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't
   even
   >? ? ? consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
   putting GTS
   >? ? ? style flares back on it.
   >
   >>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to go
   through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the fenders that
   were cut away and lost?
   >
   >? ? > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped,
   no
   >? ? ? clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car.
   Of
   >? ? ? course its LHD. Hmmmm.
   >
   >>>> LEATHER dash?? Or vinyl?? Euro L Panteras that I've seen all had
   the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any Euro L
   Panteras that are as early as yours is.? I would imagine (read: guess)
   that an early Euro L would have a standard vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
   >
   > So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn signal
   pods on the body.? If they are there, it's an L of some sort.? If not,
   it's a Euro GTS.? Of course we could end all speculation immediately if
   you just requested a Marti report!? If you request a Marti report, and
   he has one to offer up to you, then that definitively identifies your
   car as a USA L-model that somebody has been horsing around with.? If
   they come back with 'no record found' for your VIN, that means it's a
   Euro car, and then the pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to
   believe one way, or the other.
   >
   > Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason to
   assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
   specific car, either.? If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it would
   have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro GTS-specific
   thing.? But somebody could easily have swapped it for a standard
   two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
   >
   > Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
   >
   > Mike
   >
   >
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [145]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   [146]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   -------------- next part --------------
   Mike,
   Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?
   5093 appears to have been modified Inline image
   to the front corner lights, and a closer to square rear corner light.
   The lights were lost before I bought the car. I bought a pair of round
   lights that were described as being for a Fiat and they fit. I have
   not found lights to fit the rear.
   Ken Inline image
   On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:16 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso
   <[147]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   > Cullen wrote:
   >
   >
   >
   > Hi All,
   > I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on
   its
   > characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the
   sheet
   > metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
   timeframe?
   > I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
   GTS
   > cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
   > Thank you so much!!
   >
   >>>> The answer is, 'that depends'. That is, it depends on the
   specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
   >
   > The very first cars were produced in early 1972. What appears to be
   the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so could
   well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with GTS
   cosmetic features. It has no cutouts for the reflector lights in the
   rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot light on the
   front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker lights the USA
   cars had. It has GTS flares, the traditional red paint with satin
   black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro GTS graphics on the
   side (with the satin black extending up to the beltline instead of just
   the top of the rocker panels). Oddly, it has a two-pod dash, the only
   Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built that way (which lends credence
   to the theory that it was the prototype of the breed).
   >
   > Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies, with
   the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and rear. In
   front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a full-sized
   light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
   cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
   was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.
   Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras not
   receiving them.
   >
   > Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
   (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
   through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
   Pre-L sheetmetal. The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
   different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
   signals. The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with the
   turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body, while the
   Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn signal in the
   bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the body. In both
   cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front for the one-piece
   front bumper, which was a USA-only thing. However, some Euro GTS cars,
   and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a one-piece rear bumper. In at least
   some cases, it wasn't mounted on the compressible rams like the USA
   cars, and instead was bolted solidly to the chassis with T-shaped
   brackets.
   >
   > The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but did
   away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
   reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
   >
   >
   >> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
   my
   > car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for
   many
   > years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would
   expect
   > Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it
   was in
   > boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   >
   > A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
   >
   >>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269) had
   one-piece bumpers front and rear.
   >
   > It did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting
   > holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
   > extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows
   4652
   > and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question
   in my
   > mind. I know that's not conclusive. I was just hoping to
   deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   > production line, rather than word of mouth.
   >
   >>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end sheetmetal
   does the car have? If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with small indentations
   to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted in the bumpers, that
   is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro GTS. If it has the pods
   for mounting the turn signals on the body, then it's a Pantera L of
   some sort--most likely a European L if there are no holes for the front
   bumper rams.
   >
   >> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
   > present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
   size, not
   > Grp 4 or 5 size.
   >
   >>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
   fenders. They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on top
   of the standard fenders.
   >
   >> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
   > perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't
   even
   > consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
   putting GTS
   > style flares back on it.
   >
   >>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to go
   through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the fenders that
   were cut away and lost?
   >
   > > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped,
   no
   > clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car.
   Of
   > course its LHD. Hmmmm.
   >
   >>>> LEATHER dash? Or vinyl? Euro L Panteras that I've seen all had
   the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any Euro L
   Panteras that are as early as yours is. I would imagine (read: guess)
   that an early Euro L would have a standard vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
   >
   > So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn signal
   pods on the body. If they are there, it's an L of some sort. If not,
   it's a Euro GTS. Of course we could end all speculation immediately if
   you just requested a Marti report! If you request a Marti report, and
   he has one to offer up to you, then that definitively identifies your
   car as a USA L-model that somebody has been horsing around with. If
   they come back with 'no record found' for your VIN, that means it's a
   Euro car, and then the pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to
   believe one way, or the other.
   >
   > Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason to
   assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
   specific car, either. If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it would
   have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro GTS-specific
   thing. But somebody could easily have swapped it for a standard
   two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
   >
   > Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
   >
   > Mike
   >
   >
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [1][148]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   [2][149]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   References
   1. [150]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   2. [151]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   -------------- next part --------------
   A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
   Name: IMG_0200.JPG
   Type: image/jpeg
   Size: 243477 bytes
   Desc: not available
   URL:
   <[152]http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/201
   61213/64e2c7e1/attachment-0003.jpe>
   -------------- next part --------------
   A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
   Name: IMG_0199.JPG
   Type: image/jpeg
   Size: 290790 bytes
   Desc: not available
   URL:
   <[153]http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/201
   61213/64e2c7e1/attachment-0004.jpe>
   -------------- next part --------------
   A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
   Name: IMG_0200.JPG
   Type: image/jpeg
   Size: 285870 bytes
   Desc: not available
   URL:
   <[154]http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/201
   61213/64e2c7e1/attachment-0005.jpe>
   ------------------------------
   Message: 10
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:04:51 -0600
   From: Cullen McCann <[155]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   To: Mike Drew <[156]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   <[157]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
   car
   Message-ID:
   <CAFwr-[158]MVaLKZZ9b_u6R0rGw4wdX8hixh5vXGQyi790edyqhy4SA at mail.gmail.co
   m>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
   Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn signal
   "pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will research
   the
   other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but vinyl two
   pod
   is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears original.
   As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the
   record
   somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
   Thank you.
   On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso" <
   [159]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   > Cullen wrote:
   >
   >
   >
   > Hi All,
   > I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based on its
   > characteristics. Are there any recognizable differences in the sheet
   > metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same timeframe?
   > I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro GTS
   > cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
   > Thank you so much!!
   >
   >>>> The answer is, 'that depends'. That is, it depends on the specific
   nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
   >
   > The very first cars were produced in early 1972. What appears to be
   the
   prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so could well
   be
   wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with GTS cosmetic
   features. It has no cutouts for the reflector lights in the rear
   quarter
   panels, and only a round hole for a round dot light on the front
   fenders,
   rather than the rectangular side marker lights the USA cars had. It has
   GTS flares, the traditional red paint with satin black hood and
   decklid,
   blacked-out trim, and Euro GTS graphics on the side (with the satin
   black
   extending up to the beltline instead of just the top of the rocker
   panels). Oddly, it has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen
   that was built that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was
   the
   prototype of the breed).
   >
   > Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies, with
   the
   rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and rear. In
   front,
   while the chrome surround was used, instead of a full-sized light, it
   used
   a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a cigarette-shaped amber light,
   while in the rear, the chrome surround was filled with a piece of
   body-colored sheetmetal with no light. Flares were optional, with
   perhaps
   a third of the Euro GTS Panteras not receiving them.
   >
   > Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
   (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
   through
   1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera Pre-L
   sheetmetal. The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are different,
   reflecting the different positioning of the front turn signals. The
   Euro L
   used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with the turn signals mounted
   in
   L-model style housings on the body, while the Euro GTS used blacked-out
   pre-L bumpers, with the turn signal in the bumpers, and no provisions
   for
   mounting them to the body. In both cases, the Euro cars did not have
   holes
   in the front for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only
   thing.
   However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a one-piece
   rear
   bumper. In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted on the compressible
   rams
   like the USA cars, and instead was bolted solidly to the chassis with
   T-shaped brackets.
   >
   > The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but did
   away
   with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and reverted to
   the
   1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
   >
   >
   >> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
   my
   > car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car for many
   > years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I would
   expect
   > Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car, it was
   in
   > boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   >
   > A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
   >
   >>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269) had
   one-piece bumpers front and rear.
   >
   > It did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper mounting
   > holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or that
   > extensive front end work has been done. The registry also shows 4652
   > and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the question in my
   > mind. I know that's not conclusive. I was just hoping to deduce
   from characteristics inherent to the
   > production line, rather than word of mouth.
   >
   >>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end sheetmetal
   does the car have? If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with small indentations
   to
   clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted in the bumpers, that is
   fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro GTS. If it has the pods for
   mounting the turn signals on the body, then it's a Pantera L of some
   sort--most likely a European L if there are no holes for the front
   bumper
   rams.
   >
   >> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are not
   > present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller size, not
   > Grp 4 or 5 size.
   >
   >>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
   fenders. They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on top of
   the standard fenders.
   >
   >> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
   > perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I didn't even
   > consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on putting
   GTS
   > style flares back on it.
   >
   >>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to go
   through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the fenders that
   were cut away and lost?
   >
   > > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather wrapped, no
   > clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market car. Of
   > course its LHD. Hmmmm.
   >
   >>>> LEATHER dash? Or vinyl? Euro L Panteras that I've seen all had the
   later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any Euro L
   Panteras
   that are as early as yours is. I would imagine (read: guess) that an
   early
   Euro L would have a standard vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
   >
   > So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn signal
   pods
   on the body. If they are there, it's an L of some sort. If not, it's a
   Euro GTS. Of course we could end all speculation immediately if you
   just
   requested a Marti report! If you request a Marti report, and he has one
   to
   offer up to you, then that definitively identifies your car as a USA
   L-model that somebody has been horsing around with. If they come back
   with
   'no record found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then
   the
   pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the
   other.
   >
   > Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason to
   assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
   specific
   car, either. If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it would have had a
   one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro GTS-specific thing. But
   somebody could easily have swapped it for a standard two-pod dash
   somewhere
   along the way?
   >
   > Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
   >
   > Mike
   >
   >
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [160]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   [161]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use
   the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list.
   They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
   approve
   the archiving of list messages.
   -------------- next part --------------
   Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn signal
   "pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will research
   the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but vinyl
   two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
   original.A
   As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the
   record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
   Thank you.A
   On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
   <[1][162]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   > Cullen wrote:
   >
   >
   >
   >A A A Hi All,
   >A A A I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based
   on its
   >A A A characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences
   in the sheet
   >A A A metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
   timeframe?
   >A A A I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
   GTS
   >A A A cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
   >A A A Thank you so much!!
   >
   >>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.A That is, it depends on the
   specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
   >
   > The very first cars were produced in early 1972.A What appears to
   be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so
   could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with
   GTS cosmetic features.A It has no cutouts for the reflector lights
   in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot
   light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker
   lights the USA cars had.A It has GTS flares, the traditional red
   paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro
   GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the
   beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).A Oddly, it
   has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built
   that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the
   prototype of the breed).
   >
   > Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
   with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and
   rear.A In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a
   full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
   cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
   was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.A
   Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras
   not receiving them.
   >
   > Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
   (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
   through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
   Pre-L sheetmetal.A The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
   different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
   signals.A The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with
   the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body,
   while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn
   signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the
   body.A In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front
   for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.A
   However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a
   one-piece rear bumper.A In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted
   on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted
   solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
   >
   > The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
   did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
   reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
   >
   >
   >> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
   my
   >A A A car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car
   for many
   >A A A years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I
   would expect
   >A A A Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car,
   it was in
   >A A A boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   >
   > A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
   >
   >>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
   had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
   >
   > ItA did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
   mounting
   >A A A holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or
   that
   >A A A extensive front end work has been done. The registry also
   shows 4652
   >A A A and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
   question in my
   >A A A mind. I know that's not conclusive.A A A I was just
   hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   >A A A production line, rather than word of mouth.
   >
   >>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
   sheetmetal does the car have?A If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with
   small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted
   in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro
   GTS.A If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body,
   then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if
   there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
   >
   >> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
   not
   >A A A present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
   size, not
   >A A A Grp 4 or 5 size.
   >
   >>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
   fenders.A They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on
   top of the standard fenders.
   >
   >> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
   >A A A perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I
   didn't even
   >A A A consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
   putting GTS
   >A A A style flares back on it.
   >
   >>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to
   go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the
   fenders that were cut away and lost?
   >
   >A A A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather
   wrapped, no
   >A A A clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market
   car. Of
   >A A A course its LHD. Hmmmm.
   >
   >>>> LEATHER dash?A Or vinyl?A Euro L Panteras that I've seen all
   had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any
   Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.A I would imagine
   (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
   vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
   >
   > So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
   signal pods on the body.A If they are there, it's an L of some
   sort.A If not, it's a Euro GTS.A Of course we could end all
   speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report!A If
   you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then
   that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that somebody
   has been horsing around with.A If they come back with 'no record
   found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the
   pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the
   other.
   >
   > Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
   to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
   specific car, either.A If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it
   would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro
   GTS-specific thing.A But somebody could easily have swapped it for
   a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
   >
   > Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
   >
   > Mike
   >
   >
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [2][163]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   [3][164]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   References
   1. [165]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   2. [166]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   3. [167]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   ------------------------------
   Message: 11
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:48:01 -0800
   From: Paul A Rimov <[168]rimovp at gmail.com>
   To: Cullen McCann <[169]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   Cc: Mike Drew <[170]MikeLDrew at aol.com>, Email List Address For Posting
   <[171]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
   car
   Message-ID: <7FF61A43-F1DA-4884-AA4D-[172]490E747386A0 at gmail.com>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
   Um why does the sheet metal look a half inch thick when looking into
   the side maker holes?
   Sent from my iPhone
   > On Dec 13, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Cullen McCann
   <[173]cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
   >
   > Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn
   signal
   > "pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will research
   > the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but
   vinyl
   > two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
   > original.A
   > As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the
   > record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
   > Thank you.A
   > On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
   > <[1][174]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   >
   >> Cullen wrote:
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> A A A Hi All,
   >> A A A I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based
   > on its
   >
   >> A A A characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences
   > in the sheet
   >
   >> A A A metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
   > timeframe?
   >> A A A I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
   > GTS
   >
   >> A A A cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
   >> A A A Thank you so much!!
   >>
   >>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.A That is, it depends on the
   > specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
   >>
   >> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.A What appears to
   > be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so
   > could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with
   > GTS cosmetic features.A It has no cutouts for the reflector lights
   > in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot
   > light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker
   > lights the USA cars had.A It has GTS flares, the traditional red
   > paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro
   > GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the
   > beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).A Oddly, it
   > has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built
   > that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the
   > prototype of the breed).
   >>
   >> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
   > with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and
   > rear.A In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a
   > full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
   > cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
   > was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.A
   > Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras
   > not receiving them.
   >>
   >> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
   > (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
   > through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
   > Pre-L sheetmetal.A The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
   > different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
   > signals.A The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with
   > the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body,
   > while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn
   > signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the
   > body.A In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front
   > for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.A
   > However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a
   > one-piece rear bumper.A In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted
   > on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted
   > solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
   >>
   >> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
   > did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
   > reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
   >
   >>
   >>
   >>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
   > my
   >
   >> A A A car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car
   > for many
   >
   >> A A A years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I
   > would expect
   >> A A A Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car,
   > it was in
   >> A A A boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   >>
   >
   >> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
   >>
   >>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
   > had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
   >>
   >> ItA did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
   > mounting
   >
   >> A A A holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or
   > that
   >> A A A extensive front end work has been done. The registry also
   > shows 4652
   >
   >> A A A and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
   > question in my
   >> A A A mind. I know that's not conclusive.A A A I was just
   > hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   >
   >> A A A production line, rather than word of mouth.
   >>
   >
   >>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
   > sheetmetal does the car have?A If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with
   > small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted
   > in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro
   > GTS.A If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body,
   > then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if
   > there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
   >>
   >>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
   > not
   >
   >> A A A present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
   > size, not
   >> A A A Grp 4 or 5 size.
   >>
   >
   >>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
   > fenders.A They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on
   > top of the standard fenders.
   >
   >>
   >>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
   >> A A A perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I
   > didn't even
   >> A A A consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
   > putting GTS
   >> A A A style flares back on it.
   >>
   >
   >>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to
   > go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the
   > fenders that were cut away and lost?
   >>
   >> A A A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather
   > wrapped, no
   >
   >> A A A clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market
   > car. Of
   >> A A A course its LHD. Hmmmm.
   >>
   >
   >>>>> LEATHER dash?A Or vinyl?A Euro L Panteras that I've seen all
   > had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any
   > Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.A I would imagine
   > (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
   > vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
   >>
   >> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
   > signal pods on the body.A If they are there, it's an L of some
   > sort.A If not, it's a Euro GTS.A Of course we could end all
   > speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report!A If
   > you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then
   > that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that somebody
   > has been horsing around with.A If they come back with 'no record
   > found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the
   > pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the
   > other.
   >>
   >> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
   > to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
   > specific car, either.A If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it
   > would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro
   > GTS-specific thing.A But somebody could easily have swapped it for
   > a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
   >>
   >> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
   >>
   >> Mike
   >
   >>
   >>
   > _______________________________________________
   > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   > DeTomaso mailing list
   > [2][175]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   > [3][176]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   > use the links above.
   > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
   any
   > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   > list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
   archive
   > or approve the archiving of list messages.
   >
   > References
   >
   > 1. [177]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   > 2. [178]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   > 3. [179]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   > _______________________________________________
   >
   >
   > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   > DeTomaso mailing list
   > [180]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   > [181]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >
   > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   >
   > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
   any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   ------------------------------
   Message: 12
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:17:54 -0600
   From: Cullen McCann <[182]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   To: Paul A Rimov <[183]rimovp at gmail.com>
   Cc: Mike Drew <[184]mikeldrew at aol.com>, Email List Address For Posting
   <[185]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
   car
   Message-ID:
   <CAFwr-MWpMxno8HRi5gdBiOsM9m84yNtmnD0Me3URj83UE-[186]mHKw at mail.gmail.co
   m>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
   Well...since my car is so far apart I can see that they are flanged,
   with
   the sheet metal turned in to accept the light housing.
   Woohoo! I got to answer a question. Hope I got it right.
   Cullen.
   On Dec 13, 2016 6:48 PM, "Paul A Rimov" <[187]rimovp at gmail.com> wrote:
   > Um why does the sheet metal look a half inch thick when looking into
   the
   > side maker holes?
   >
   > Sent from my iPhone
   >
   > > On Dec 13, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Cullen McCann
   <[188]cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
   > wrote:
   > >
   > > Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn
   signal
   > > "pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will
   research
   > > the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but
   vinyl
   > > two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
   > > original.A
   > > As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the
   > > record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
   > > Thank you.A
   > > On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
   > > <[1][189]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   > >
   > >> Cullen wrote:
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>
   > >> A A A Hi All,
   > >> A A A I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub
   based
   > > on its
   > >
   > >> A A A characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences
   > > in the sheet
   > >
   > >> A A A metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
   > > timeframe?
   > >> A A A I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do
   Euro
   > > GTS
   > >
   > >> A A A cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
   > >> A A A Thank you so much!!
   > >>
   > >>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.A That is, it depends on the
   > > specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
   > >>
   > >> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.A What appears to
   > > be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so
   > > could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with
   > > GTS cosmetic features.A It has no cutouts for the reflector lights
   > > in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot
   > > light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker
   > > lights the USA cars had.A It has GTS flares, the traditional red
   > > paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro
   > > GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the
   > > beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).A Oddly, it
   > > has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built
   > > that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the
   > > prototype of the breed).
   > >>
   > >> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
   > > with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and
   > > rear.A In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a
   > > full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
   > > cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome
   surround
   > > was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.A
   > > Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras
   > > not receiving them.
   > >>
   > >> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
   > > (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
   > > through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
   > > Pre-L sheetmetal.A The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
   > > different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
   > > signals.A The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with
   > > the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body,
   > > while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn
   > > signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the
   > > body.A In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front
   > > for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.A
   > > However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a
   > > one-piece rear bumper.A In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted
   > > on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted
   > > solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
   > >>
   > >> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
   > > did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers
   and
   > > reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
   > >
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret.
   Its
   > > my
   > >
   > >> A A A car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car
   > > for many
   > >
   > >> A A A years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I
   > > would expect
   > >> A A A Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car,
   > > it was in
   > >> A A A boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   > >>
   > >
   > >> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
   > >>
   > >>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
   > > had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
   > >>
   > >> ItA did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
   > > mounting
   > >
   > >> A A A holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or
   > > that
   > >> A A A extensive front end work has been done. The registry also
   > > shows 4652
   > >
   > >> A A A and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
   > > question in my
   > >> A A A mind. I know that's not conclusive.A A A I was just
   > > hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   > >
   > >> A A A production line, rather than word of mouth.
   > >>
   > >
   > >>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
   > > sheetmetal does the car have?A If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with
   > > small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted
   > > in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro
   > > GTS.A If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body,
   > > then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if
   > > there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
   > >>
   > >>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
   > > not
   > >
   > >> A A A present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
   > > size, not
   > >> A A A Grp 4 or 5 size.
   > >>
   > >
   > >>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
   > > fenders.A They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on
   > > top of the standard fenders.
   > >
   > >>
   > >>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
   > >> A A A perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I
   > > didn't even
   > >> A A A consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
   > > putting GTS
   > >> A A A style flares back on it.
   > >>
   > >
   > >>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to
   > > go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the
   > > fenders that were cut away and lost?
   > >>
   > >> A A A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather
   > > wrapped, no
   > >
   > >> A A A clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market
   > > car. Of
   > >> A A A course its LHD. Hmmmm.
   > >>
   > >
   > >>>>> LEATHER dash?A Or vinyl?A Euro L Panteras that I've seen all
   > > had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any
   > > Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.A I would imagine
   > > (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
   > > vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
   > >>
   > >> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
   > > signal pods on the body.A If they are there, it's an L of some
   > > sort.A If not, it's a Euro GTS.A Of course we could end all
   > > speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report!A If
   > > you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then
   > > that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that
   somebody
   > > has been horsing around with.A If they come back with 'no record
   > > found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the
   > > pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the
   > > other.
   > >>
   > >> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
   > > to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
   > > specific car, either.A If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it
   > > would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro
   > > GTS-specific thing.A But somebody could easily have swapped it for
   > > a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
   > >>
   > >> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
   > >>
   > >> Mike
   > >
   > >>
   > >>
   > > _______________________________________________
   > > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   > > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   > > DeTomaso mailing list
   > > [2][190]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   > > [3][191]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   > > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   etc.)
   > > use the links above.
   > > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
   any
   > > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   > > list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
   archive
   > > or approve the archiving of list messages.
   > >
   > > References
   > >
   > > 1. [192]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   > > 2. [193]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   > > 3. [194]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   > > _______________________________________________
   > >
   > >
   > > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   > > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   > > DeTomaso mailing list
   > > [195]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   > > [196]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   > >
   > > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   etc.)
   > use the links above.
   > >
   > > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
   any
   > message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list.
   > They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or
   approve
   > the archiving of list messages.
   >
   -------------- next part --------------
   Well...since my car is so far apart I can see that they are flanged,
   with the sheet metal turned in to accept the light housing.A
   Woohoo! I got to answer a question. Hope I got it right.A
   Cullen.A
   On Dec 13, 2016 6:48 PM, "Paul A Rimov" <[1][197]rimovp at gmail.com>
   wrote:
   Um why does the sheet metal look a half inch thick when looking into
   the side maker holes?
   Sent from my iPhone
   > On Dec 13, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Cullen McCann
   <[2][198]cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
   >
   >A A Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the
   turn signal
   >A A "pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will
   research
   >A A the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash
   but vinyl
   >A A two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
   >A A original.A
   >A A As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should
   set the
   >A A record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
   >A A Thank you.A
   >A A On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
   >A A <[1][3][199]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   >
   >> Cullen wrote:
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> AA AA AA Hi All,
   >> AA AA AA I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body
   tub based
   >A A on its
   >
   >> AA AA AA characteristics.AA Are there any recognizable
   differences
   >A A A in the sheet
   >
   >> AA AA AA metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the
   same
   >A A timeframe?
   >> AA AA AA I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin.
   Do Euro
   >A A GTS
   >
   >> AA AA AA cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the
   steel?
   >> AA AA AA Thank you so much!!
   >>
   >>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.AA That is, it depends on the
   >A A A specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was
   built.
   >>
   >> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.AA What appears
   to
   >A A A be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from
   memory so
   >A A A could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European
   Pre-L with
   >A A A GTS cosmetic features.AA It has no cutouts for the
   reflector lights
   >A A A in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a
   round dot
   >A A A light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular
   side marker
   >A A A lights the USA cars had.AA It has GTS flares, the
   traditional red
   >A A A paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim,
   and Euro
   >A A A GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up
   to the
   >A A A beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).AA
   Oddly, it
   >A A A has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that
   was built
   >A A A that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was
   the
   >A A A prototype of the breed).
   >>
   >> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
   >A A A with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights
   front and
   >A A A rear.AA In front, while the chrome surround was used,
   instead of a
   >A A A full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored
   sheetmetal with a
   >A A A cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome
   surround
   >A A A was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no
   light.A
   >A A A Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS
   Panteras
   >A A A not receiving them.
   >>
   >> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
   >A A A (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while
   even
   >A A A through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover
   Pantera
   >A A A Pre-L sheetmetal.AA The noses of the Pre-L and L-model
   cars are
   >A A A different, reflecting the different positioning of the
   front turn
   >A A A signals.AA The Euro L used simple chrome blade front
   bumpers, with
   >A A A the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the
   body,
   >A A A while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the
   turn
   >A A A signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them
   to the
   >A A A body.AA In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in
   the front
   >A A A for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only
   thing.A
   >A A A However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used
   a
   >A A A one-piece rear bumper.AA In at least some cases, it wasn't
   mounted
   >A A A on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was
   bolted
   >A A A solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
   >>
   >> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
   >A A A did away with the rectangular body openings for the side
   markers and
   >A A A reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front
   only.
   >
   >>
   >>
   >>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret.
   Its
   >A A my
   >
   >> AA AA AA car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's
   car
   >A A A for many
   >
   >> AA AA AA years, was destined to be a race car but never
   happened. I
   >A A would expect
   >> AA AA AA Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a
   parts car,
   >A A it was in
   >> AA AA AA boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   >>
   >
   >> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
   >>
   >>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
   >A A A had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
   >>
   >> ItAA did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
   >A A A mounting
   >
   >> AA AA AA holes and I see no evidence that they have been
   filled or
   >A A that
   >> AA AA AA extensive front end work has been done. The registry
   also
   >A A shows 4652
   >
   >> AA AA AA and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
   >A A A question in my
   >> AA AA AA mind. I know that's not conclusive.AA AA AA I was
   just
   >A A A hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   >
   >> AA AA AA production line, rather than word of mouth.
   >>
   >
   >>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
   >A A A sheetmetal does the car have?AA If it has pre-L
   sheetmetal, with
   >A A A small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals
   mounted
   >A A A in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a
   Euro
   >A A A GTS.AA If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on
   the body,
   >A A A then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European
   L if
   >A A A there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
   >>
   >>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
   >A A A not
   >
   >> AA AA AA present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a
   smaller
   >A A size, not
   >> AA AA AA Grp 4 or 5 size.
   >>
   >
   >>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut
   the
   >A A A fenders.AA They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit
   right on
   >A A A top of the standard fenders.
   >
   >>
   >>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
   >> AA AA AA perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed,
   I
   >A A didn't even
   >> AA AA AA consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was
   planning on
   >A A putting GTS
   >> AA AA AA style flares back on it.
   >>
   >
   >>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want
   to
   >A A A go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of
   the
   >A A A fenders that were cut away and lost?
   >>
   >> AA AA A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin.
   leather
   >A A A wrapped, no
   >
   >> AA AA AA clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA
   market
   >A A car. Of
   >> AA AA AA course its LHD. Hmmmm.
   >>
   >
   >>>>> LEATHER dash?AA Or vinyl?AA Euro L Panteras that I've seen
   all
   >A A A had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't
   seen any
   >A A A Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.AA I would
   imagine
   >A A A (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
   >A A A vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
   >>
   >> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
   >A A A signal pods on the body.AA If they are there, it's an L of
   some
   >A A A sort.AA If not, it's a Euro GTS.AA Of course we could end
   all
   >A A A speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti
   report!AA If
   >A A A you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to
   you, then
   >A A A that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that
   somebody
   >A A A has been horsing around with.AA If they come back with 'no
   record
   >A A A found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then
   the
   >A A A pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one
   way, or the
   >A A A other.
   >>
   >> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
   >A A A to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original
   to this
   >A A A specific car, either.AA If it was a Euro GTS of that
   vintage, it
   >A A A would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a
   Euro
   >A A A GTS-specific thing.AA But somebody could easily have
   swapped it for
   >A A A a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
   >>
   >> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
   >>
   >> Mike
   >
   >>
   >>
   >A A _______________________________________________
   >A A Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   >A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >A A DeTomaso mailing list
   >A A [2][4][200]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >A A
   [3][5][201]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
   unsubscribe, etc.)
   >A A use the links above.
   >A A Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
   forward any
   >A A message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
   the
   >A A list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
   archive
   >A A or approve the archiving of list messages.
   >
   > References
   >
   >A A 1. [202]mailto:[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >A A 2. [203]mailto:[7]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >A A 3.
   [8][204]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   > _______________________________________________
   >
   >
   > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   > DeTomaso mailing list
   > [9][205]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   > [10][206]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >
   > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   etc.) use the links above.
   >
   > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
   any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
   the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
   archive or approve the archiving of list messages.
   References
   1. [207]mailto:rimovp at gmail.com
   2. [208]mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   3. [209]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   4. [210]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   5. [211]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   6. [212]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   7. [213]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   8. [214]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   9. [215]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   10. [216]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   ------------------------------
   Message: 13
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:25:39 -0800
   From: Mike Drew <[217]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
   To: Paul A Rimov <[218]rimovp at gmail.com>
   Cc: Email List Address For Posting
   <[219]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
   car
   Message-ID: <1EABCFF4-A9DC-4E56-BADF-[220]578FF2A2B304 at aol.com>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
   Paul,
   They aren't simple holes. The metal is stamped and rolled inwards to
   make a flange.
   Mike
   Sent from my iPhone
   On Dec 13, 2016, at 16:48, Paul A Rimov <[221]rimovp at gmail.com> wrote:
   > Um why does the sheet metal look a half inch thick when looking into
   the side maker holes?
   >
   > Sent from my iPhone
   >
   >> On Dec 13, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Cullen McCann
   <[222]cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
   >>
   >> Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn
   signal
   >> "pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will research
   >> the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but
   vinyl
   >> two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
   >> original.A
   >> As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the
   >> record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
   >> Thank you.A
   >> On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
   >> <[1][223]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   >>
   >>> Cullen wrote:
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>
   >>> A A A Hi All,
   >>> A A A I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based
   >> on its
   >>
   >>> A A A characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences
   >> in the sheet
   >>
   >>> A A A metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
   >> timeframe?
   >>> A A A I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
   >> GTS
   >>
   >>> A A A cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
   >>> A A A Thank you so much!!
   >>>
   >>>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.A That is, it depends on the
   >> specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
   >>>
   >>> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.A What appears to
   >> be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so
   >> could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with
   >> GTS cosmetic features.A It has no cutouts for the reflector lights
   >> in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot
   >> light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker
   >> lights the USA cars had.A It has GTS flares, the traditional red
   >> paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro
   >> GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the
   >> beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).A Oddly, it
   >> has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built
   >> that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the
   >> prototype of the breed).
   >>>
   >>> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
   >> with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and
   >> rear.A In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a
   >> full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
   >> cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
   >> was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.A
   >> Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras
   >> not receiving them.
   >>>
   >>> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
   >> (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
   >> through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
   >> Pre-L sheetmetal.A The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
   >> different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
   >> signals.A The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with
   >> the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body,
   >> while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn
   >> signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the
   >> body.A In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front
   >> for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.A
   >> However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a
   >> one-piece rear bumper.A In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted
   >> on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted
   >> solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
   >>>
   >>> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
   >> did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
   >> reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
   >>
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret.
   Its
   >> my
   >>
   >>> A A A car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car
   >> for many
   >>
   >>> A A A years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I
   >> would expect
   >>> A A A Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car,
   >> it was in
   >>> A A A boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   >>
   >>> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
   >>>
   >>>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
   >> had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
   >>>
   >>> ItA did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
   >> mounting
   >>
   >>> A A A holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or
   >> that
   >>> A A A extensive front end work has been done. The registry also
   >> shows 4652
   >>
   >>> A A A and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
   >> question in my
   >>> A A A mind. I know that's not conclusive.A A A I was just
   >> hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   >>
   >>> A A A production line, rather than word of mouth.
   >>
   >>>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
   >> sheetmetal does the car have?A If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with
   >> small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted
   >> in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro
   >> GTS.A If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body,
   >> then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if
   >> there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
   >>>
   >>>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
   >> not
   >>
   >>> A A A present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
   >> size, not
   >>> A A A Grp 4 or 5 size.
   >>
   >>>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
   >> fenders.A They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on
   >> top of the standard fenders.
   >>
   >>>
   >>>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
   >>> A A A perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I
   >> didn't even
   >>> A A A consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
   >> putting GTS
   >>> A A A style flares back on it.
   >>
   >>>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to
   >> go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the
   >> fenders that were cut away and lost?
   >>>
   >>> A A A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather
   >> wrapped, no
   >>
   >>> A A A clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market
   >> car. Of
   >>> A A A course its LHD. Hmmmm.
   >>
   >>>>>> LEATHER dash?A Or vinyl?A Euro L Panteras that I've seen all
   >> had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any
   >> Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.A I would imagine
   >> (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
   >> vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
   >>>
   >>> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
   >> signal pods on the body.A If they are there, it's an L of some
   >> sort.A If not, it's a Euro GTS.A Of course we could end all
   >> speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report!A If
   >> you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then
   >> that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that somebody
   >> has been horsing around with.A If they come back with 'no record
   >> found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the
   >> pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the
   >> other.
   >>>
   >>> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
   >> to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
   >> specific car, either.A If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it
   >> would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro
   >> GTS-specific thing.A But somebody could easily have swapped it for
   >> a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
   >>>
   >>> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
   >>>
   >>> Mike
   >>
   >> _______________________________________________
   >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >> DeTomaso mailing list
   >> [2][224]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >> [3][225]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   etc.)
   >> use the links above.
   >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
   any
   >> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   >> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
   archive
   >> or approve the archiving of list messages.
   >>
   >> References
   >>
   >> 1. [226]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >> 2. [227]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >> 3. [228]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >> _______________________________________________
   >>
   >>
   >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >> DeTomaso mailing list
   >> [229]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >> [230]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >>
   >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   etc.) use the links above.
   >>
   >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
   any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   ------------------------------
   Message: 14
   Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 01:34:32 +0000
   From: Emiliano Ballejos <[231]mghibli7 at hotmail.com>
   To: Paul A Rimov <[232]rimovp at gmail.com>
   Cc: Mike Drew <[233]MikeLDrew at aol.com>, Email List Address For Posting
   <[234]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market
   car
   Message-ID:
   <[235]BY2PR1201MB1031FB4DF2FF6F15D02619E4949A0 at BY2PR1201MB1031.namprd12
   .prod.outlook.com>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
   Because the edges are folded in to give added strength and so the light
   is not sitting on a sharp edge.
   Sent from my iPhone
   > On Dec 13, 2016, at 5:48 PM, Paul A Rimov <[236]rimovp at gmail.com>
   wrote:
   >
   > Um why does the sheet metal look a half inch thick when looking into
   the side maker holes?
   >
   > Sent from my iPhone
   >
   >> On Dec 13, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Cullen McCann
   <[237]cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
   >>
   >> Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn
   signal
   >> "pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will research
   >> the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but
   vinyl
   >> two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
   >> original.A
   >> As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the
   >> record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
   >> Thank you.A
   >> On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
   >> <[1][238]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   >>
   >>> Cullen wrote:
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>
   >>> A A A Hi All,
   >>> A A A I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based
   >> on its
   >>
   >>> A A A characteristics.A Are there any recognizable differences
   >> in the sheet
   >>
   >>> A A A metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
   >> timeframe?
   >>> A A A I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
   >> GTS
   >>
   >>> A A A cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
   >>> A A A Thank you so much!!
   >>>
   >>>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.A That is, it depends on the
   >> specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
   >>>
   >>> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.A What appears to
   >> be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so
   >> could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with
   >> GTS cosmetic features.A It has no cutouts for the reflector lights
   >> in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot
   >> light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker
   >> lights the USA cars had.A It has GTS flares, the traditional red
   >> paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro
   >> GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the
   >> beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).A Oddly, it
   >> has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built
   >> that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the
   >> prototype of the breed).
   >>>
   >>> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
   >> with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and
   >> rear.A In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a
   >> full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
   >> cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
   >> was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.A
   >> Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras
   >> not receiving them.
   >>>
   >>> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
   >> (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
   >> through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
   >> Pre-L sheetmetal.A The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
   >> different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
   >> signals.A The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with
   >> the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body,
   >> while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn
   >> signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the
   >> body.A In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front
   >> for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.A
   >> However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a
   >> one-piece rear bumper.A In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted
   >> on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted
   >> solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
   >>>
   >>> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
   >> did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
   >> reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
   >>
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret.
   Its
   >> my
   >>
   >>> A A A car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car
   >> for many
   >>
   >>> A A A years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I
   >> would expect
   >>> A A A Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car,
   >> it was in
   >>> A A A boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
   >>>
   >>
   >>> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
   >>>
   >>>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
   >> had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
   >>>
   >>> ItA did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
   >> mounting
   >>
   >>> A A A holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or
   >> that
   >>> A A A extensive front end work has been done. The registry also
   >> shows 4652
   >>
   >>> A A A and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
   >> question in my
   >>> A A A mind. I know that's not conclusive.A A A I was just
   >> hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
   >>
   >>> A A A production line, rather than word of mouth.
   >>>
   >>
   >>>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
   >> sheetmetal does the car have?A If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with
   >> small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted
   >> in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro
   >> GTS.A If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body,
   >> then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if
   >> there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
   >>>
   >>>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
   >> not
   >>
   >>> A A A present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
   >> size, not
   >>> A A A Grp 4 or 5 size.
   >>>
   >>
   >>>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
   >> fenders.A They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on
   >> top of the standard fenders.
   >>
   >>>
   >>>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
   >>> A A A perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I
   >> didn't even
   >>> A A A consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
   >> putting GTS
   >>> A A A style flares back on it.
   >>>
   >>
   >>>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to
   >> go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the
   >> fenders that were cut away and lost?
   >>>
   >>> A A A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather
   >> wrapped, no
   >>
   >>> A A A clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market
   >> car. Of
   >>> A A A course its LHD. Hmmmm.
   >>>
   >>
   >>>>>> LEATHER dash?A Or vinyl?A Euro L Panteras that I've seen all
   >> had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any
   >> Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.A I would imagine
   >> (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
   >> vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
   >>>
   >>> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
   >> signal pods on the body.A If they are there, it's an L of some
   >> sort.A If not, it's a Euro GTS.A Of course we could end all
   >> speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report!A If
   >> you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then
   >> that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that somebody
   >> has been horsing around with.A If they come back with 'no record
   >> found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the
   >> pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the
   >> other.
   >>>
   >>> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
   >> to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
   >> specific car, either.A If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it
   >> would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro
   >> GTS-specific thing.A But somebody could easily have swapped it for
   >> a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
   >>>
   >>> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
   >>>
   >>> Mike
   >>
   >>>
   >>>
   >> _______________________________________________
   >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >> DeTomaso mailing list
   >> [2][239]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >> [3][240]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   etc.)
   >> use the links above.
   >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
   any
   >> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   >> list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
   archive
   >> or approve the archiving of list messages.
   >>
   >> References
   >>
   >> 1. [241]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >> 2. [242]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >> 3. [243]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >> _______________________________________________
   >>
   >>
   >> Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >> DeTomaso mailing list
   >> [244]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   >> [245]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >>
   >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   etc.) use the links above.
   >>
   >> Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
   any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   > _______________________________________________
   >
   >
   > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   > DeTomaso mailing list
   > [246]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   > [247]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >
   > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   >
   > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
   any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   ------------------------------
   Message: 15
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 22:20:41 -0500
   From: [248]MikeLDrew at aol.com
   To: [249]kenn_green at yahoo.com, [250]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd:? body differences - Euro GTS vs USA
   market car
   Message-ID: <[251]1046c7a.58deda9c.45821489 at aol.com>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
   Mike,
   Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?
   5093 appears to have been modified to the front corner lights, and a
   closer to
   square rear corner light. The lights were lost before I bought the car.
   I bought a pair of round lights that were described as being for a Fiat
   and
   they fit. I have not found lights to fit the rear.
   >>>Ken,
   You should look on the inside of the fenders for evidence of work done.
   I
   don't know if the cars that came with round dots in front and nothing
   in
   the back, started off with smooth fenders, or if De Tomaso welded in
   patches.
   For sure, your rear lights are non-De Tomaso. In order to import it
   into
   the USA, it would have had to be retrofitted with rear marker lights,
   and
   whoever imported it just grabbed whatever was at hand to satisfy the
   DOT.
   That's also what Kirk Evans had to do with the Amerisport cars, which
   is why
   those cars have USA-made external side marker lights. The cars were
   built
   with only round dots in front and smooth panels in the rear; Kirk
   drilled
   holes to accommodate external lights.
   Mike
   -------------- next part --------------
   Mike,
   Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?
   5093 appears to have been modified to the front corner lights, and a
   closer to square rear corner light. The lights were lost before I
   bought the car. I bought a pair of round lights that were described as
   being for a Fiat and they fit. I have not found lights to fit the
   rear.
   >>>Ken,
   You should look on the inside of the fenders for evidence of work
   done. I don't know if the cars that came with round dots in front and
   nothing in the back, started off with smooth fenders, or if De Tomaso
   welded in patches.
   For sure, your rear lights are non-De Tomaso. In order to import it
   into the USA, it would have had to be retrofitted with rear marker
   lights, and whoever imported it just grabbed whatever was at hand to
   satisfy the DOT. That's also what Kirk Evans had to do with the
   Amerisport cars, which is why those cars have USA-made external side
   marker lights. The cars were built with only round dots in front and
   smooth panels in the rear; Kirk drilled holes to accommodate external
   lights.
   Mike
   ------------------------------
   Message: 16
   Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 04:24:31 +0000 (UTC)
   From: Ken Green <[252]kenn_green at yahoo.com>
   To: "[253]MikeLDrew at aol.com" <[254]MikeLDrew at aol.com>,
   "[255]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
   <[256]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd:? body differences - Euro GTS vs USA
   market car
   Message-ID: <[257]1689990019.2655758.1481689471595 at mail.yahoo.com>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
   Mike,
   ??? It is a Claude DuBois import.? The US front and rear side marker
   supports are still there, just covered over.? I wonder if?most the Ford
   years Panteras started out as US versions??
   Ken
   On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:20 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso
   <[258]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   ? Mike,
   ? ? ? Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?
   ? 5093 appears to have been modified to the front corner lights, and a
   ? closer to square rear corner light.? The lights were lost before I
   ? bought the car.? I bought a pair of round lights that were described
   as
   ? being for a Fiat and they fit.? I have not found lights to fit the
   ? rear.
   ? >>>Ken,
   ? You should look on the inside of the fenders for evidence of work
   ? done.? I don't know if the cars that came with round dots in front
   and
   ? nothing in the back, started off with smooth fenders, or if De Tomaso
   ? welded in patches.
   ? For sure, your rear lights are non-De Tomaso.? In order to import it
   ? into the USA, it would have had to be retrofitted with rear marker
   ? lights, and whoever imported it just grabbed whatever was at hand to
   ? satisfy the DOT.? That's also what Kirk Evans had to do with the
   ? Amerisport cars, which is why those cars have USA-made external side
   ? marker lights.? The cars were built with only round dots in front and
   ? smooth panels in the rear; Kirk drilled holes to accommodate external
   ? lights.
   ? Mike
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [259]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   [260]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   -------------- next part --------------
   Mike,
   It is a Claude DuBois import. The US front and rear side marker
   supports are still there, just covered over. I wonder if most the Ford
   years Panteras started out as US versions?
   Ken
   On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:20 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso
   <[261]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   Mike,
   Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?
   5093 appears to have been modified to the front corner lights, and a
   closer to square rear corner light. The lights were lost before I
   bought the car. I bought a pair of round lights that were described
   as
   being for a Fiat and they fit. I have not found lights to fit the
   rear.
   >>>Ken,
   You should look on the inside of the fenders for evidence of work
   done. I don't know if the cars that came with round dots in front
   and
   nothing in the back, started off with smooth fenders, or if De Tomaso
   welded in patches.
   For sure, your rear lights are non-De Tomaso. In order to import it
   into the USA, it would have had to be retrofitted with rear marker
   lights, and whoever imported it just grabbed whatever was at hand to
   satisfy the DOT. That's also what Kirk Evans had to do with the
   Amerisport cars, which is why those cars have USA-made external side
   marker lights. The cars were built with only round dots in front and
   smooth panels in the rear; Kirk drilled holes to accommodate external
   lights.
   Mike
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [1][262]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   [2][263]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   References
   1. [264]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   2. [265]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   ------------------------------
   Message: 17
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 23:31:26 -0500
   From: Patrick Orlando <[266]patrickf.orlando at gmail.com>
   To: [267]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   Subject: [DeTomaso] Side Marker Lights
   Message-ID:
   <CAPVjhOS6enEmXsWWfQQog22CUNgCL_ZR7Yh-[268]sroPSnV42mgGFw at mail.gmail.co
   m>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
   Thats the FIRST thing I did to my car when painted was to remove them.
   Looks great like its supposed to look. Patrick Orlando 1972 Yellow
   Pantera
   S/N 4011
   -------------- next part --------------
   Thats the FIRST thing I did to my car when painted was to remove them.
   Looks great like its supposed to look. Patrick Orlando 1972 Yellow
   Pantera S/N 4011
   ------------------------------
   Message: 18
   Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 21:05:51 -0800
   From: Mike Drew <[269]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
   To: Ken Green <[270]kenn_green at yahoo.com>
   Cc: "[271]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com"
   <[272]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Fwd:? body differences - Euro GTS vs USA
   market car
   Message-ID: <FDF78B37-24B0-4C2E-8584-[273]C7B53643AD67 at aol.com>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
   Ken,
   Well, the sheetmetal was all stamped the same, probably, and the euro
   cars were then modified to suit specific lighting schemes....
   Mike
   Sent from my iPad
   > On Dec 13, 2016, at 8:24 PM, Ken Green <[274]kenn_green at yahoo.com>
   wrote:
   >
   > Mike,
   >
   > It is a Claude DuBois import. The US front and rear side marker
   supports are still there, just covered over. I wonder if most the Ford
   years Panteras started out as US versions?
   >
   > Ken
   >
   >
   > On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:20 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso
   <[275]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   >
   >
   > Mike,
   > Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?
   > 5093 appears to have been modified to the front corner lights, and a
   > closer to square rear corner light. The lights were lost before I
   > bought the car. I bought a pair of round lights that were described
   as
   > being for a Fiat and they fit. I have not found lights to fit the
   > rear.
   > >>>Ken,
   > You should look on the inside of the fenders for evidence of work
   > done. I don't know if the cars that came with round dots in front and
   > nothing in the back, started off with smooth fenders, or if De Tomaso
   > welded in patches.
   > For sure, your rear lights are non-De Tomaso. In order to import it
   > into the USA, it would have had to be retrofitted with rear marker
   > lights, and whoever imported it just grabbed whatever was at hand to
   > satisfy the DOT. That's also what Kirk Evans had to do with the
   > Amerisport cars, which is why those cars have USA-made external side
   > marker lights. The cars were built with only round dots in front and
   > smooth panels in the rear; Kirk drilled holes to accommodate external
   > lights.
   > Mike
   >
   > _______________________________________________
   >
   >
   > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   > DeTomaso mailing list
   > [276]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   > [277]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   >
   > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   >
   > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
   any message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   >
   -------------- next part --------------
   Ken,
   Well, the sheetmetal was all stamped the same, probably, and the euro
   cars were then modified to suit specific lighting schemes....
   Mike
   Sent from my iPad
   On Dec 13, 2016, at 8:24 PM, Ken Green <[1][278]kenn_green at yahoo.com>
   wrote:
   Mike,
   It is a Claude DuBois import. The US front and rear side marker
   supports are still there, just covered over. I wonder if most the Ford
   years Panteras started out as US versions?
   Ken
   On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:20 PM, Mike Drew via DeTomaso
   <[2][279]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
   Mike,
   Do you know if the bodies were modified to use the round lights?
   5093 appears to have been modified to the front corner lights, and a
   closer to square rear corner light. The lights were lost before I
   bought the car. I bought a pair of round lights that were described
   as
   being for a Fiat and they fit. I have not found lights to fit the
   rear.
   >>>Ken,
   You should look on the inside of the fenders for evidence of work
   done. I don't know if the cars that came with round dots in front
   and
   nothing in the back, started off with smooth fenders, or if De Tomaso
   welded in patches.
   For sure, your rear lights are non-De Tomaso. In order to import it
   into the USA, it would have had to be retrofitted with rear marker
   lights, and whoever imported it just grabbed whatever was at hand to
   satisfy the DOT. That's also what Kirk Evans had to do with the
   Amerisport cars, which is why those cars have USA-made external side
   marker lights. The cars were built with only round dots in front and
   smooth panels in the rear; Kirk drilled holes to accommodate external
   lights.
   Mike
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [3][280]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   [4][281]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   References
   1. [282]mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
   2. [283]mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   3. [284]mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   4. [285]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   ------------------------------
   Message: 19
   Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 08:25:13 -0800
   From: The DeTomaso Registry Guy <[286]detomasoregistry at gmail.com>
   To: "DeTomaso List" <[287]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com>
   Subject: [DeTomaso] FW: Archer Episode
   Message-ID: <9BB6B7833908411DB57D2E8A5B233817 at BOSS3A>
   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
   _____
   From: M Stewart
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:01 PM
   To: [288]Admin at DeTomasoRegistry.org
   Subject: Archer Episode
   Titled "Deadly Prep" dated 41416 features a yellow early Euro bumper
   Pantera is background and then in a decent length car chase.
   Details of animation are pretty good.
   Archer is an animated spy series on F/X Network.
   -------------- next part --------------
   _______________________________________________________________________
   From: M Stewart
   Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:01 PM
   To: [289]Admin at DeTomasoRegistry.org
   Subject: Archer Episode
   Titled "Deadly Prep" dated 41416 features a yellow early Euro bumper
   Pantera is background and then in a decent length car chase. Details
   of animation are pretty good.
   Archer is an animated spy series on F/X Network.
   ------------------------------
   Subject: Digest Footer
   _______________________________________________
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [290]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   [291]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
   or approve the archiving of list messages.
   ------------------------------
   End of DeTomaso Digest, Vol 150, Issue 14
   *****************************************

References

   1. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   2. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   3. mailto:request at server.detomasolist.com
   4. mailto:owner at server.detomasolist.com
   5. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
   6. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   7. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
   8. mailto:jJYGXeHwUepSMNp3D28vZJSg at mail.gmail.com
   9. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  10. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  11. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  12. mailto:DM5PR18MB1323804059802A24FCBACC4D959B0 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
  13. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
  14. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  15. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
  16. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  17. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  18. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  19. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  20. mailto:MWfxGTSuQowga0sAs+rLrbm3y33jC3ZQFQvzt4S5Hz_kw at mail.gmail.com
  21. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  22. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
  23. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  24. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  25. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
  26. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  27. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com?
  28. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com?
  29. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
  30. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  31. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  32. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  33. mailto:DM5PR18MB13238CB0ACE56CEE6B2A6399959B0 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
  34. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  35. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  36. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com?
  37. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
  38. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com?
  39. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  40. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
  41. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  42. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  43. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
  44. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  45. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com?
  46. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com?
  47. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
  48. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
  49. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  50. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  51. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  52. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
  53. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
  54. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  55. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  56. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  57. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  58. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  59. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
  60. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  61. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com?
  62. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com?
  63. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
  64. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  65. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  66. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
  67. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  68. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  69. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  70. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  71. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  72. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
  73. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  74. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com?
  75. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com?
  76. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
  77. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  78. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  79. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com?
  80. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com?
  81. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
  82. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
  83. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
  84. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com?
  85. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com?
  86. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
  87. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com?
  88. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com?
  89. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
  90. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
  91. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
  92. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  93. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  94. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
  95. mailto:MXTgmMkJK56AJBgQ0XWbamGLP7zeAxNJPqH8yqtVB797Q at mail.gmail.com
  96. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  97. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  98. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
  99. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
 100. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 101. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
 102. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 103. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
 104. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
 105. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 106. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com?
 107. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
 108. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com?
 109. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com?
 110. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
 111. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
 112. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 113. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 114. mailto:DM5PR18MB1323C5141C21149929F39E88959B0 at DM5PR18MB1323.namprd18.prod.outlook.com
 115. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 116. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
 117. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com?
 118. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 119. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
 120. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
 121. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com?
 122. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
 123. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com?
 124. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 125. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
 126. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 127. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
 128. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 129. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
 130. mailto:bounces at server.detomasolist.com
 131. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 132. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com?
 133. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
 134. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com?
 135. mailto:detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com?
 136. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
 137. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
 138. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 139. mailto:720E1F5BF2FD at aol.com
 140. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
 141. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
 142. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 143. mailto:1340652307.2481924.1481669274008 at mail.yahoo.com
 144. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 145. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 146. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 147. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 148. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 149. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 150. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 151. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 152. http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/20161213/64e2c7e1/attachment-0003.jpe
 153. http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/20161213/64e2c7e1/attachment-0004.jpe
 154. http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/20161213/64e2c7e1/attachment-0005.jpe
 155. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 156. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
 157. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 158. mailto:MVaLKZZ9b_u6R0rGw4wdX8hixh5vXGQyi790edyqhy4SA at mail.gmail.com
 159. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 160. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 161. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 162. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 163. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 164. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 165. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 166. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 167. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 168. mailto:rimovp at gmail.com
 169. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 170. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
 171. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 172. mailto:490E747386A0 at gmail.com
 173. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 174. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 175. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 176. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 177. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 178. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 179. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 180. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 181. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 182. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 183. mailto:rimovp at gmail.com
 184. mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
 185. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 186. mailto:mHKw at mail.gmail.com
 187. mailto:rimovp at gmail.com
 188. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 189. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 190. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 191. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 192. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 193. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 194. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 195. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 196. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 197. mailto:rimovp at gmail.com
 198. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 199. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 200. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 201. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 202. mailto:[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 203. mailto:[7]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 204. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 205. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 206. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 207. mailto:rimovp at gmail.com?
 208. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com?
 209. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 210. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 211. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 212. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 213. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 214. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 215. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 216. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 217. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
 218. mailto:rimovp at gmail.com
 219. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 220. mailto:578FF2A2B304 at aol.com
 221. mailto:rimovp at gmail.com
 222. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 223. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 224. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 225. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 226. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 227. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 228. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 229. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 230. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 231. mailto:mghibli7 at hotmail.com
 232. mailto:rimovp at gmail.com
 233. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
 234. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 235. mailto:BY2PR1201MB1031FB4DF2FF6F15D02619E4949A0 at BY2PR1201MB1031.namprd12.prod.outlook.com
 236. mailto:rimovp at gmail.com
 237. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
 238. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 239. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 240. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 241. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 242. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 243. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 244. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 245. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 246. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 247. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 248. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
 249. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
 250. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 251. mailto:1046c7a.58deda9c.45821489 at aol.com
 252. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
 253. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
 254. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
 255. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 256. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 257. mailto:1689990019.2655758.1481689471595 at mail.yahoo.com
 258. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 259. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 260. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 261. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 262. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 263. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 264. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 265. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 266. mailto:patrickf.orlando at gmail.com
 267. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 268. mailto:sroPSnV42mgGFw at mail.gmail.com
 269. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
 270. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
 271. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 272. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 273. mailto:C7B53643AD67 at aol.com
 274. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
 275. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 276. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 277. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 278. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
 279. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 280. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 281. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 282. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com?
 283. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 284. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com?
 285. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
 286. mailto:detomasoregistry at gmail.com
 287. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 288. mailto:Admin at DeTomasoRegistry.org
 289. mailto:Admin at DeTomasoRegistry.org
 290. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
 291. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso


More information about the DeTomaso mailing list