[DeTomaso] Fwd: body differences - Euro GTS vs USA market car

Cullen McCann cmccann1972 at gmail.com
Tue Dec 13 20:17:54 EST 2016


Well...since my car is so far apart I can see that they are flanged, with
the sheet metal turned in to accept the light housing.

Woohoo! I got to answer a question. Hope I got it right.

Cullen.

On Dec 13, 2016 6:48 PM, "Paul A Rimov" <rimovp at gmail.com> wrote:

> Um why does the sheet metal look a half inch thick when looking into the
> side maker holes?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 13, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >   Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the turn signal
> >   "pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will research
> >   the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash but vinyl
> >   two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
> >   original.A
> >   As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should set the
> >   record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
> >   Thank you.A
> >   On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
> >   <[1]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Cullen wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> A  A  A  Hi All,
> >> A  A  A  I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body tub based
> >   on its
> >
> >> A  A  A  characteristics.A  Are there any recognizable differences
> >     in the sheet
> >
> >> A  A  A  metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the same
> >   timeframe?
> >> A  A  A  I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin. Do Euro
> >   GTS
> >
> >> A  A  A  cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the steel?
> >> A  A  A  Thank you so much!!
> >>
> >>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.A  That is, it depends on the
> >     specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was built.
> >>
> >> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.A  What appears to
> >     be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from memory so
> >     could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European Pre-L with
> >     GTS cosmetic features.A  It has no cutouts for the reflector lights
> >     in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a round dot
> >     light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular side marker
> >     lights the USA cars had.A  It has GTS flares, the traditional red
> >     paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim, and Euro
> >     GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up to the
> >     beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).A  Oddly, it
> >     has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that was built
> >     that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was the
> >     prototype of the breed).
> >>
> >> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
> >     with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights front and
> >     rear.A  In front, while the chrome surround was used, instead of a
> >     full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with a
> >     cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome surround
> >     was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no light.A
> >     Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS Panteras
> >     not receiving them.
> >>
> >> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
> >     (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while even
> >     through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover Pantera
> >     Pre-L sheetmetal.A  The noses of the Pre-L and L-model cars are
> >     different, reflecting the different positioning of the front turn
> >     signals.A  The Euro L used simple chrome blade front bumpers, with
> >     the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the body,
> >     while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the turn
> >     signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them to the
> >     body.A  In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in the front
> >     for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only thing.A
> >     However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used a
> >     one-piece rear bumper.A  In at least some cases, it wasn't mounted
> >     on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was bolted
> >     solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
> >>
> >> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
> >     did away with the rectangular body openings for the side markers and
> >     reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front only.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret. Its
> >   my
> >
> >> A  A  A  car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's car
> >     for many
> >
> >> A  A  A  years, was destined to be a race car but never happened. I
> >   would expect
> >> A  A  A  Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a parts car,
> >   it was in
> >> A  A  A  boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
> >>
> >
> >> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
> >>
> >>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
> >     had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
> >>
> >> ItA  did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
> >     mounting
> >
> >> A  A  A  holes and I see no evidence that they have been filled or
> >   that
> >> A  A  A  extensive front end work has been done. The registry also
> >   shows 4652
> >
> >> A  A  A  and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
> >     question in my
> >> A  A  A  mind. I know that's not conclusive.A  A  A  I was just
> >     hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
> >
> >> A  A  A  production line, rather than word of mouth.
> >>
> >
> >>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
> >     sheetmetal does the car have?A  If it has pre-L sheetmetal, with
> >     small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals mounted
> >     in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a Euro
> >     GTS.A  If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on the body,
> >     then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European L if
> >     there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
> >>
> >>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
> >     not
> >
> >> A  A  A  present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a smaller
> >   size, not
> >> A  A  A  Grp 4 or 5 size.
> >>
> >
> >>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut the
> >     fenders.A  They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit right on
> >     top of the standard fenders.
> >
> >>
> >>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
> >> A  A  A  perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed, I
> >   didn't even
> >> A  A  A  consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was planning on
> >   putting GTS
> >> A  A  A  style flares back on it.
> >>
> >
> >>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want to
> >     go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of the
> >     fenders that were cut away and lost?
> >>
> >> A  A  A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin. leather
> >     wrapped, no
> >
> >> A  A  A  clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA market
> >   car. Of
> >> A  A  A  course its LHD. Hmmmm.
> >>
> >
> >>>>> LEATHER dash?A  Or vinyl?A  Euro L Panteras that I've seen all
> >     had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't seen any
> >     Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.A  I would imagine
> >     (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
> >     vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
> >>
> >> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
> >     signal pods on the body.A  If they are there, it's an L of some
> >     sort.A  If not, it's a Euro GTS.A  Of course we could end all
> >     speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti report!A  If
> >     you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to you, then
> >     that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that somebody
> >     has been horsing around with.A  If they come back with 'no record
> >     found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then the
> >     pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one way, or the
> >     other.
> >>
> >> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
> >     to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original to this
> >     specific car, either.A  If it was a Euro GTS of that vintage, it
> >     would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a Euro
> >     GTS-specific thing.A  But somebody could easily have swapped it for
> >     a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
> >>
> >> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
> >>
> >> Mike
> >
> >>
> >>
> >   _______________________________________________
> >   Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> >   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >   DeTomaso mailing list
> >   [2]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >   [3]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> >   use the links above.
> >   Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> >   message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the
> >   list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive
> >   or approve the archiving of list messages.
> >
> > References
> >
> >   1. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >   2. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> >   3. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
> > http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
> >
> > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward any
> message posted here to all past, current, or future members of the list.
> They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an archive or approve
> the archiving of list messages.
>
-------------- next part --------------
   Well...since my car is so far apart I can see that they are flanged,
   with the sheet metal turned in to accept the light housing.A
   Woohoo! I got to answer a question. Hope I got it right.A
   Cullen.A

   On Dec 13, 2016 6:48 PM, "Paul A Rimov" <[1]rimovp at gmail.com> wrote:

     Um why does the sheet metal look a half inch thick when looking into
     the side maker holes?
     Sent from my iPhone
     > On Dec 13, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Cullen McCann
     <[2]cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
     >
     >A  A Mike, as always thank for your help. The car does have the
     turn signal
     >A  A "pods" on the front, rectangular side marker lights. I will
     research
     >A  A the other items and get back. Also I said leather on the dash
     but vinyl
     >A  A two pod is correct. the matching vin is affixed and it appears
     >A  A original.A
     >A  A As suggested I will invest in the Marti report which should
     set the
     >A  A record somewhat straight, available or not. Thank you!!
     >A  A Thank you.A
     >A  A On Dec 13, 2016 4:16 PM, "Mike Drew via DeTomaso"
     >A  A <[1][3]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com> wrote:
     >
     >> Cullen wrote:
     >>
     >>
     >>
     >> AA  AA  AA  Hi All,
     >> AA  AA  AA  I'm trying to positively identify a bare steel body
     tub based
     >A  A on its
     >
     >> AA  AA  AA  characteristics.AA  Are there any recognizable
     differences
     >A  A  A in the sheet
     >
     >> AA  AA  AA  metal on the Euro GTS versus a USA market car of the
     same
     >A  A timeframe?
     >> AA  AA  AA  I'm told the USA market GTS would have GT in the vin.
     Do Euro
     >A  A GTS
     >
     >> AA  AA  AA  cars have any GT-specifiA identifying marks in the
     steel?
     >> AA  AA  AA  Thank you so much!!
     >>
     >>>>> The answer is, 'that depends'.AA  That is, it depends on the
     >A  A  A specific nature of the individual Euro GTS and when it was
     built.
     >>
     >> The very first cars were produced in early 1972.AA  What appears
     to
     >A  A  A be the prototype (2014 if I recall correctly, that's from
     memory so
     >A  A  A could well be wrong) appears externally to be a European
     Pre-L with
     >A  A  A GTS cosmetic features.AA  It has no cutouts for the
     reflector lights
     >A  A  A in the rear quarter panels, and only a round hole for a
     round dot
     >A  A  A light on the front fenders, rather than the rectangular
     side marker
     >A  A  A lights the USA cars had.AA  It has GTS flares, the
     traditional red
     >A  A  A paint with satin black hood and decklid, blacked-out trim,
     and Euro
     >A  A  A GTS graphics on the side (with the satin black extending up
     to the
     >A  A  A beltline instead of just the top of the rocker panels).AA
     Oddly, it
     >A  A  A has a two-pod dash, the only Euro GTS I've ever seen that
     was built
     >A  A  A that way (which lends credence to the theory that it was
     the
     >A  A  A prototype of the breed).
     >>
     >> Later in 1972, the Euro GTS cars used standard Pantera bodies,
     >A  A  A with the rectangular openings for the side marker lights
     front and
     >A  A  A rear.AA  In front, while the chrome surround was used,
     instead of a
     >A  A  A full-sized light, it used a piece of body-colored
     sheetmetal with a
     >A  A  A cigarette-shaped amber light, while in the rear, the chrome
     surround
     >A  A  A was filled with a piece of body-colored sheetmetal with no
     light.A
     >A  A  A Flares were optional, with perhaps a third of the Euro GTS
     Panteras
     >A  A  A not receiving them.
     >>
     >> Oddly, after the standard Pantera body changed with the Pantera L
     >A  A  A (#4269), European Pantera L-models used the USA body, while
     even
     >A  A  A through 1974, it seems the Euro GTS was built with leftover
     Pantera
     >A  A  A Pre-L sheetmetal.AA  The noses of the Pre-L and L-model
     cars are
     >A  A  A different, reflecting the different positioning of the
     front turn
     >A  A  A signals.AA  The Euro L used simple chrome blade front
     bumpers, with
     >A  A  A the turn signals mounted in L-model style housings on the
     body,
     >A  A  A while the Euro GTS used blacked-out pre-L bumpers, with the
     turn
     >A  A  A signal in the bumpers, and no provisions for mounting them
     to the
     >A  A  A body.AA  In both cases, the Euro cars did not have holes in
     the front
     >A  A  A for the one-piece front bumper, which was a USA-only
     thing.A
     >A  A  A However, some Euro GTS cars, and all Euro Pantera Ls, used
     a
     >A  A  A one-piece rear bumper.AA  In at least some cases, it wasn't
     mounted
     >A  A  A on the compressible rams like the USA cars, and instead was
     bolted
     >A  A  A solidly to the chassis with T-shaped brackets.
     >>
     >> The post 7500-VIN cars used the same bumper mounting scheme, but
     >A  A  A did away with the rectangular body openings for the side
     markers and
     >A  A  A reverted to the 1971-Euro-style round lights in the front
     only.
     >
     >>
     >>
     >>> Yes, by the VIN seems like the obvious choice and not a secret.
     Its
     >A  A my
     >
     >> AA  AA  AA  car, which is late 72 L, 4653. It was Ted Mitchell's
     car
     >A  A  A for many
     >
     >> AA  AA  AA  years, was destined to be a race car but never
     happened. I
     >A  A would expect
     >> AA  AA  AA  Ted to know, but when he acquired it, more like a
     parts car,
     >A  A it was in
     >> AA  AA  AA  boxes, and that's how I acquired it.
     >>
     >
     >> A USA market "L" car would have a large front bumper, correct?
     >>
     >>>>> Absolutely--all USA-market cars sold after fall of '72 (#4269)
     >A  A  A had one-piece bumpers front and rear.
     >>
     >> ItAA  did not come with one, and it does not have shock bumper
     >A  A  A mounting
     >
     >> AA  AA  AA  holes and I see no evidence that they have been
     filled or
     >A  A that
     >> AA  AA  AA  extensive front end work has been done. The registry
     also
     >A  A shows 4652
     >
     >> AA  AA  AA  and 4654 being euro GTS cars. Which simply raises the
     >A  A  A question in my
     >> AA  AA  AA  mind. I know that's not conclusive.AA  AA  AA  I was
     just
     >A  A  A hoping to deduce from characteristics inherent to the
     >
     >> AA  AA  AA  production line, rather than word of mouth.
     >>
     >
     >>>>> Well, let me ask you a question--what kind of front-end
     >A  A  A sheetmetal does the car have?AA  If it has pre-L
     sheetmetal, with
     >A  A  A small indentations to clear the wiring for the turn signals
     mounted
     >A  A  A in the bumpers, that is fairly definitive proof that it's a
     Euro
     >A  A  A GTS.AA  If it has the pods for mounting the turn signals on
     the body,
     >A  A  A then it's a Pantera L of some sort--most likely a European
     L if
     >A  A  A there are no holes for the front bumper rams.
     >>
     >>> It DOES have evidence of the pop rivet holes, but the flares are
     >A  A  A not
     >
     >> AA  AA  AA  present. The fender openings had been cut, but to a
     smaller
     >A  A size, not
     >> AA  AA  AA  Grp 4 or 5 size.
     >>
     >
     >>>>> When the factory fitted flares to the GTS, they did NOT cut
     the
     >A  A  A fenders.AA  They were a cosmetic enhancement only, and fit
     right on
     >A  A  A top of the standard fenders.
     >
     >>
     >>> Just the steel flare was removed with holes at the
     >> AA  AA  AA  perimeter. With so many aftermarket flares installed,
     I
     >A  A didn't even
     >> AA  AA  AA  consider it when I first saw it. Honestly I was
     planning on
     >A  A putting GTS
     >> AA  AA  AA  style flares back on it.
     >>
     >
     >>>>> Sounds like you really have no other option, unless you want
     to
     >A  A  A go through the effort of re-fabricating those portions of
     the
     >A  A  A fenders that were cut away and lost?
     >>
     >> AA  AA  A > It does have a two pod dash, with matching vin.
     leather
     >A  A  A wrapped, no
     >
     >> AA  AA  AA  clock. So that seams indicative to me that is a USA
     market
     >A  A car. Of
     >> AA  AA  AA  course its LHD. Hmmmm.
     >>
     >
     >>>>> LEATHER dash?AA  Or vinyl?AA  Euro L Panteras that I've seen
     all
     >A  A  A had the later-style one-pod dash, but I confess I haven't
     seen any
     >A  A  A Euro L Panteras that are as early as yours is.AA  I would
     imagine
     >A  A  A (read: guess) that an early Euro L would have a standard
     >A  A  A vinyl-covered two-pod dash.
     >>
     >> So, the question is driven by the presence or absence of turn
     >A  A  A signal pods on the body.AA  If they are there, it's an L of
     some
     >A  A  A sort.AA  If not, it's a Euro GTS.AA  Of course we could end
     all
     >A  A  A speculation immediately if you just requested a Marti
     report!AA  If
     >A  A  A you request a Marti report, and he has one to offer up to
     you, then
     >A  A  A that definitively identifies your car as a USA L-model that
     somebody
     >A  A  A has been horsing around with.AA  If they come back with 'no
     record
     >A  A  A found' for your VIN, that means it's a Euro car, and then
     the
     >A  A  A pattern of the sheetmetal would lead one to believe one
     way, or the
     >A  A  A other.
     >>
     >> Since the car came to you in boxes, there is no particular reason
     >A  A  A to assume that all the parts in all the boxes were original
     to this
     >A  A  A specific car, either.AA  If it was a Euro GTS of that
     vintage, it
     >A  A  A would have had a one-piece fiberglass dashboard, which is a
     Euro
     >A  A  A GTS-specific thing.AA  But somebody could easily have
     swapped it for
     >A  A  A a standard two-pod dash somewhere along the way?
     >>
     >> Do some homework and let us know what you find out!
     >>
     >> Mike
     >
     >>
     >>
     >A  A _______________________________________________
     >A  A Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
     >A  A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
     >A  A DeTomaso mailing list
     >A  A [2][4]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
     >A  A [3][5]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
     >A  A To manage your subscription (change email address,
     unsubscribe, etc.)
     >A  A use the links above.
     >A  A Members who post to this list grant license to the list to
     forward any
     >A  A message posted here to all past, current, or future members of
     the
     >A  A list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
     archive
     >A  A or approve the archiving of list messages.
     >
     > References
     >
     >A  A 1. mailto:[6]detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
     >A  A 2. mailto:[7]DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
     >A  A 3. [8]http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
     > _______________________________________________
     >
     >
     > Detomaso Email List is not managed by POCA
     > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
     > DeTomaso mailing list
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     > Members who post to this list grant license to the list to forward
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     the list. They also grant the list owner permission to maintain an
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References

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   2. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   3. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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   5. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   6. mailto:detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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   8. http://server.detomasolist.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
   9. mailto:DeTomaso at server.detomasolist.com
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