[DeTomaso] Radiator Dilemma
Julian Kift
julian_kift at hotmail.com
Wed Aug 10 15:26:09 EDT 2016
Jack,
Water has a higher heat capacity than glycol and water/glycol mixes, so theoretically the most efficient coolant is 100% water (or with Hyperkool, Water Wetter or some other product that further increases the heat capacity). The glycol is there for a) antifreeze protection and b) corrosion resistance.
Julian
________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of Jack Donahue <demongusta at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 10:17 AM
To: Mike Drew
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiator Dilemma
Mike:
Thank you for the input. What’s prompting the discussion is that I just don’t like hovering 200 degrees all the time with slow driving. At speed - highway speed - it runs around 185. I fear that time when I may get stuck in traffic on the freeway in HOT weather. Maybe I should get used to it(?) I hear people on The List talk about 210 - 220 - no problem. I don’t have a lot of "goodies" that are talked about, i.e. electric “assist” in-line water pump, no liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger, and no shroud. I hear about the leaks, of which, I guess I am lucky not to have. Should I have a shroud built? Put money into the aged aluminum unit? I feel good about my bleeding - although I would like be re-referred to a clip I saw on You Tube about the “suction" technique, since I bought a unit to do that (but still in the box) - and I have a radiator pump that can add pressure for bleeding. My radiator is tilted forward with twin sucker fans installed by Gary Hall, and a front-mounted A/C condenser. I use a Robert Shaw 180 thermostat and have the “speed pulley” on my mechanical (Weiand) water pump.
I was intrigued by Brassworks’ product - and had entertained the rear radiator idea. But I don’t think it’s too popular here - otherwise I would hear more about it. Ugly?, clumsy? Unnecessary? Good idea? It’s brass/copper - so electrolysis with Al radiator?
Interesting reading - the NoRosion site where straight water and Hyperkuhl shows better cooling that 50/50 water/antifreeze. It never gets cold enough for me to have anti-freeze - I had always heard 50/50 was cooler than straight water. My car is just not driven in cold or rainy weather - fair weather driving only.
I see the DQ/Ron Dennis radiator is a “double-pass” unit - does "more passes"=better cooling?
True - if it ain’t broke…. Maybe I should just clean and add a shroud for starters? Although I am bit intrigued by the HyperKuhl/straight water data.
Jack
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 2:03 PM, MikeLDrew at aol.com wrote:
>
> Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a shroud is a necessity, which I understand.
>
> >>>Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true.
>
> It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently. Do you have it in the stock position, with pusher fans? If so, the car came from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which helped ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced through the radiator and not spill around the sides. If you don't have those, you definitely owe it to yourself to get them.
>
> Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans? If so, it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible.
>
> Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is perhaps something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator with an all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as at high speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly enough due to the blockage formed by the shroud.
>
> Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to this problem. He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps that blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and that fixed his problem completely.
>
> >I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks.
>
> >>>Be very happy. They have been known to leak, especially the early ones. Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes it to leak. As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation both at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine.
>
> So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking about changing it? The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as long as the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc.
>
> So what exactly are we talking about here?
>
> >The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) - don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had read from someone was just to get his radiator and “be done with it”.
>
> >>>That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix a $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was).
>
> >I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume it's shrouded.
>
> >>>The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt.
>
> >Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And Why?
>
> >>>Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter. However, the disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so for equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be made larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back much of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car.
>
> The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not repairable. The discussion last week centered around a high-quality brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted $600 to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it. He took it to an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250.
>
> When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak far from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally without much trouble. When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<(
>
> > I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about extra weight. I am familiar with the company - Brassworks - they have been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had mentioned Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all the experts - i know you are out there.
>
> >>>You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine.
>
> However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your radiator without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about replacing it? If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic response. But if it's not leaking, what is your issue?
>
> Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road? That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead of Cleveland), or air in the system.
>
> Overheating all the time, even when going down the road? Almost assuredly air in the system.
>
> Neither condition requires a radiator change. If you had a stock, original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had separated from the core, for sure you would want to replace it. As it is, IF you even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue. In fact, changing the radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you refill it you don't bleed it properly.
>
> So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Mike
-------------- next part --------------
Jack,
Water has a higher heat capacity than glycol and water/glycol mixes, so
theoretically the most efficient coolant is 100% water (or with
Hyperkool, Water Wetter or some other product that further increases
the heat capacity). The glycol is there for a) antifreeze protection
and b) corrosion resistance.
Julian
__________________________________________________________________
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at server.detomasolist.com> on behalf of
Jack Donahue <demongusta at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 10:17 AM
To: Mike Drew
Cc: detomaso at server.detomasolist.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiator Dilemma
Mike:
Thank you for the input. What's prompting the discussion is that I just
don't like hovering 200 degrees all the time with slow driving. At
speed - highway speed - it runs around 185. I fear that time when I may
get stuck in traffic on the freeway in HOT weather. Maybe I should get
used to it(?) I hear people on The List talk about 210 - 220 - no
problem. I don't have a lot of "goodies" that are talked about, i.e.
electric "assist" in-line water pump, no liquid-to-liquid heat
exchanger, and no shroud. I hear about the leaks, of which, I guess I
am lucky not to have. Should I have a shroud built? Put money into the
aged aluminum unit? I feel good about my bleeding - although I would
like be re-referred to a clip I saw on You Tube about the "suction"
technique, since I bought a unit to do that (but still in the box) -
and I have a radiator pump that can add pressure for bleeding. My
radiator is tilted forward with twin sucker fans installed by Gary
Hall, and a front-mounted A/C condenser. I use a Robert Shaw 180
thermostat and have the "speed pulley" on my mechanical (Weiand) water
pump.
I was intrigued by Brassworks' product - and had entertained the rear
radiator idea. But I don't think it's too popular here - otherwise I
would hear more about it. Ugly?, clumsy? Unnecessary? Good idea? It's
brass/copper - so electrolysis with Al radiator?
Interesting reading - the NoRosion site where straight water and
Hyperkuhl shows better cooling that 50/50 water/antifreeze. It never
gets cold enough for me to have anti-freeze - I had always heard 50/50
was cooler than straight water. My car is just not driven in cold or
rainy weather - fair weather driving only.
I see the DQ/Ron Dennis radiator is a "double-pass" unit - does "more
passes"=better cooling?
True - if it ain't broke.... Maybe I should just clean and add a shroud
for starters? Although I am bit intrigued by the HyperKuhl/straight
water data.
Jack
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 2:03 PM, MikeLDrew at aol.com wrote:
>
> Hey all - I need some good advice on radiators. I currently have a
Fluidyne performance unit without a shroud. I've been told that a
shroud is a necessity, which I understand.
>
> >>>Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is not strictly true.
>
> It all depends on the configuration of your radiator currently. Do
you have it in the stock position, with pusher fans? If so, the car
came from the factory with two side pieces and a top cover, which
helped ensure all air flowing through the grille would be forced
through the radiator and not spill around the sides. If you don't have
those, you definitely owe it to yourself to get them.
>
> Do you have your radiator tilted forward, with sucker fans? If so,
it's still important to shroud the sides and top as much as possible.
>
> Aftermarket sucker fans are pretty powerful, and while there is
perhaps something to be gained by fitting the back side of the radiator
with an all-encompassing shroud, there is also something to be lost, as
at high speeds the air can stagnate because it can't escape quickly
enough due to the blockage formed by the shroud.
>
> Johnny Woods uses Flex-A-Lite sucker fans with integral shroud on his
car, and he experienced high-speed overheating that he attributed to
this problem. He cut holes in the shroud and fitted hinged flaps that
blow up when the pressure behind the radiator becomes excessive, and
that fixed his problem completely.
>
> >I've had it for about 12 years now - no leaks.
>
> >>>Be very happy. They have been known to leak, especially the early
ones. Sometimes the radiator is so large that it physically touches
the body, and when the body flexes it bends the radiator and causes it
to leak. As long as it is properly mounted, with rubber isolation both
at the bottom and the sides, it should be fine.
>
> So if you have a radiator that isn't leaking, why are you talking
about changing it? The Fluidyne radiator is more than you need, as
long as the system is properly bled and the fans are working etc.
>
> So what exactly are we talking about here?
>
> >The rumblings on The List lean towards a unit by Dennis Quella(?) -
don't know the correct spelling or the company, but the last I had read
from someone was just to get his radiator and "be done with it".
>
> >>>That was, I thought, a laughable suggestion to spend $2000 to fix
a $200 problem, of a perfectly good radiator that had sprung a leak and
just needed to be repaired (which it subsequently was).
>
> >I think it was a double-pass (I guess that's good) - and I assume
it's shrouded.
>
> >>>The DQ radiator made by Ron Dennis is fantastic, no doubt.
>
> >Another side of me asks - which is better - copper or aluminum? And
Why?
>
> >>>Aluminum's chief advantage is that it is lighter. However, the
disadvantage is (supposedly) that it doesn't shed heat as well, so for
equal heat-shedding performance, an aluminum radiator needs to be made
larger, which means it holds more water, which means you gain back much
of the weight you supposedly saved once it's in the car.
>
> The chief disadvantage of aluminum is that they are normally not
repairable. The discussion last week centered around a high-quality
brass Hall radiator that had sprung a leak; a crooked shop quoted $600
to repair it which is as much as it costs to replace it. He took it to
an honest shop and they totally restored it for $250.
>
> When you are driving down the road and your radiator springs a leak
far from home, you can normally get a brass radiator repaired locally
without much trouble. When an aluminum radiator picks up a rock and
springs a leak, you take it out and throw it away. :<(
>
> > I know the copper units are heavier, but I am not concerned about
extra weight. I am familiar with the company - Brassworks - they have
been at it since the early 1900's. Ken and Lela MacArthur had mentioned
Brassworks in July. So - here we go - I know the discussion will
generate a fair amount of opinions - which I always welcome, since it
will generate more questions too. Looking forward to hearing from all
the experts - i know you are out there.
>
> >>>You will likely get differing opinions, and that's fine.
>
> However, I would say that you are talking about replacing your
radiator without first identifying exactly WHY you are talking about
replacing it? If your Fluidyne was leaking, that would be an automatic
response. But if it's not leaking, what is your issue?
>
> Overheating at slow speeds but cools fine when going down the road?
That's either poor fan performance, wrong thermostat (Windsor instead
of Cleveland), or air in the system.
>
> Overheating all the time, even when going down the road? Almost
assuredly air in the system.
>
> Neither condition requires a radiator change. If you had a stock,
original radiator that was visibly leaking and whose fins had separated
from the core, for sure you would want to replace it. As it is, IF you
even have a problem, it's a maintenance issue. In fact, changing the
radiator is likely to make the problem worse, not better, if when you
refill it you don't bleed it properly.
>
> So please, tell us exactly what is prompting this discussion.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Mike
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