[DeTomaso] Shorter front shocks?

Guido deTomaso guido_detomaso at prodigy.net
Sun Apr 10 16:40:32 EDT 2016


Kinda going all over the map here.  The Pantera has no upper or lower stops, it depends on the shocks for that.  I haven't seen every coilover suspension ever built, but I cannot think of one with suspension stops.  Most live axles I've encountered use the shocks as the extension stop.  So do some popular American IFS set ups, use the shock for the up and down stop.
Outside of some off-road application I'm not seeing the necessity of engineering some suspension stop scheme on the Pantera ... is there even one out there modified with "up" stops ?
A short shock, or a long shock with its extension reduced, what's the difference?  Save a few bucks not buying another set.
Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong.
GD



      From: JEFFREY COBB <jeffcobb1 at me.com>
 To: "Joseph F. Byrd, Jr." <byrdjf at embarqmail.com> 
Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
 Sent: Saturday, April 9, 2016 5:03 AM
 Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Shorter front shocks?
   
Joseph,
You never want to have your shock be the suspension stop. 
That is why you have jounce or bottoming rubbers. 
Those that have the shocks as bumpers do wind up having busted shock end bushings and damaged shock internals.

I corner weighed a Mangusta recently, 628 pounds for a front and 898 pounds for a rear wheel. 
Imagine a 12 mm shock shaft rod with two pissy end bushings not being damaged by that weigh and the force which is many times greater when suspension g-force loads in hundreds of a second are paced on it? Though a binding spring does lessen the load at its max compression, the shock rod would be bearing a heavy sharp impact load.

Bottoming loads are intense and need to be directed from the tires contact patch to the frame through the control arms via the ball joints.

That is not the shocks job, its job is to control suspension range movements by dampening/controlling positive and negative vertical accelerations. 
The springs ideal job is to allow correct spring pressure for the inches of travel, to support the weight of the car and to relax at the cars desired height.


Jeff Cobb- I pad

On Apr 8, 2016, at 9:10 PM, "Joseph F. Byrd, Jr." <byrdjf at embarqmail.com> wrote:

> Would you want your shock's internals be your suspension travel limiter?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of Guido deTomaso
> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 21:34 PM
> To: Scott Bell; detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Shorter front shocks?
> 
> 
> 
> Reduce the extension of the shock, assuming you can open it up and put in a spacer of some sort?  So the shorter spring doesn't come loose.
> GD
> 
>      From: Scott Bell <scott at saccrestorations.net>
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 2:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Shorter front shocks?
> 
> Because the spring becomes loose between the perches when the car is un-weighted (like going over a hills peak or a speed bump)...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of Forest Goodhart
> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 2:22 PM
> To: De Tomaso List
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Shorter front shocks?
> 
> Why not a shorter spring of the same rate?
> 
>      From: Ken Green via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
> To: De Tomaso List <detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 1:25 PM
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Shorter front shocks?
> 
>    Has anyone done an analysis of the viability of running a bit shorter
>  front shocks?  With the typical length front shocks, and springs on the
>  heavy side, it appears that the nose is a bit higher than I want at the
>  lowest spring position.  I could probably use lighter springs adjusted
>  for the desired height, but I'm not sure that is a good solution.
>  Ken
> 
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> 
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-------------- next part --------------
   Kinda going all over the map here.  The Pantera has no upper or lower
   stops, it depends on the shocks for that.  I haven't seen every
   coilover suspension ever built, but I cannot think of one with
   suspension stops.  Most live axles I've encountered use the shocks as
   the extension stop.  So do some popular American IFS set ups, use the
   shock for the up and down stop.
   Outside of some off-road application I'm not seeing the necessity of
   engineering some suspension stop scheme on the Pantera ... is there
   even one out there modified with "up" stops ?
   A short shock, or a long shock with its extension reduced, what's the
   difference?  Save a few bucks not buying another set.
   Or so it seems to me, I could be wrong.
   GD
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: JEFFREY COBB <jeffcobb1 at me.com>
   To: "Joseph F. Byrd, Jr." <byrdjf at embarqmail.com>
   Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
   Sent: Saturday, April 9, 2016 5:03 AM
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Shorter front shocks?
   Joseph,
   You never want to have your shock be the suspension stop.
   That is why you have jounce or bottoming rubbers.
   Those that have the shocks as bumpers do wind up having busted shock
   end bushings and damaged shock internals.
   I corner weighed a Mangusta recently, 628 pounds for a front and 898
   pounds for a rear wheel.
   Imagine a 12 mm shock shaft rod with two pissy end bushings not being
   damaged by that weigh and the force which is many times greater when
   suspension g-force loads in hundreds of a second are paced on it?
   Though a binding spring does lessen the load at its max compression,
   the shock rod would be bearing a heavy sharp impact load.
   Bottoming loads are intense and need to be directed from the tires
   contact patch to the frame through the control arms via the ball
   joints.
   That is not the shocks job, its job is to control suspension range
   movements by dampening/controlling positive and negative vertical
   accelerations.
   The springs ideal job is to allow correct spring pressure for the
   inches of travel, to support the weight of the car and to relax at the
   cars desired height.
   Jeff Cobb- I pad
   On Apr 8, 2016, at 9:10 PM, "Joseph F. Byrd, Jr."
   <[1]byrdjf at embarqmail.com> wrote:
   > Would you want your shock's internals be your suspension travel
   limiter?
   >
   > -----Original Message-----
   > From: DeTomaso [mailto:[2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of
   Guido deTomaso
   > Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 21:34 PM
   > To: Scott Bell; [3]detomaso at poca.com
   > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Shorter front shocks?
   >
   >
   >
   > Reduce the extension of the shock, assuming you can open it up and
   put in a spacer of some sort?  So the shorter spring doesn't come
   loose.
   > GD
   >
   >      From: Scott Bell <[4]scott at saccrestorations.net>
   > To: [5]detomaso at poca.com
   > Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 2:48 PM
   > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Shorter front shocks?
   >
   > Because the spring becomes loose between the perches when the car is
   un-weighted (like going over a hills peak or a speed bump)...
   >
   > -----Original Message-----
   > From: DeTomaso [mailto:[6]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of
   Forest Goodhart
   > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 2:22 PM
   > To: De Tomaso List
   > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Shorter front shocks?
   >
   > Why not a shorter spring of the same rate?
   >
   >      From: Ken Green via DeTomaso <[7]detomaso at poca.com>
   > To: De Tomaso List <[8]detomaso at poca.com>
   > Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 1:25 PM
   > Subject: [DeTomaso] Shorter front shocks?
   >
   >    Has anyone done an analysis of the viability of running a bit
   shorter
   >  front shocks?  With the typical length front shocks, and springs on
   the
   >  heavy side, it appears that the nose is a bit higher than I want at
   the
   >  lowest spring position.  I could probably use lighter springs
   adjusted
   >  for the desired height, but I'm not sure that is a good solution.
   >  Ken
   >
   > _______________________________________________
   >
   > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
   > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
   [9]DeTomaso at poca.com
   [10]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >
   > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.
   >
   _______________________________________________
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References

   1. mailto:byrdjf at embarqmail.com
   2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   3. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
   4. mailto:scott at saccrestorations.net
   5. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
   6. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   7. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
   8. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
   9. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  10. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  11. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  12. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com


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