[DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Jeff Detrich
jjdetrich at gmail.com
Thu Sep 17 17:55:48 EDT 2015
I've heard also that BMWs won't allow you to check your oid level either.
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso <
detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
> This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works. Reads "dead
> center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
> "normal" range. I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the temp
> gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
> On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a few
> years ago.A It turns out people were calling in to the dealer quite
> a
> bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers were
> worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was in
> the
> red zone.
> Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
> Problem. Solved.
> sean
> On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
> <[1][1]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
> A A There's another reason to add to the list.A This is a very
> car-saavy
> A A group of people.A Most of those F-150s and Explorers will be
> sold to
> A A people who don't look at the instruments, much less understand
> them, or
> A A even care.A I'd be surprised if they're there for any reason
> beyond
> A A norm and style.
> A A Richard
> A A Austin, TX
> A A From: DeTomaso <[1][2][2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf
> of
> Larry - Ohio
> A A Time <[2][3][3]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
> A A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
> A A To: 'Kirby Schrader' <[3][4][4]kirbyschrader at mac.com>,
> 'Charles
> McCall'
> A A <[4][5][5]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> A A Cc: deTomaso List <[5][6][6]detomaso at poca.com>
> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
> A A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
> A A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and
> programming
> A A code
> A A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you
> then
> A A eliminate
> A A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
> unit... well
> A A that
> A A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
> person who
> A A came up
> A A with that one is a VP now.
> A A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
> A A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
> A A -----Original Message-----
> A A From: DeTomaso [[6]mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
> Behalf Of Kirby
> A A Schrader
> A A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
> A A To: Charles McCall
> A A Cc: Pantera list serve
> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
> A A Not quite as stupid, but..
> A A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil pressure
> gauge in
> A A the
> A A instrument cluster.
> A A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or at
> rpm.
> A A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely an
> idiot
> A A light in
> A A the disguise of a gauge.
> A A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have pressure.
> A A FWIW,
> A A Kirby
> A A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
> <[7][8][8]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> A A wrote:
> A A A Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that I'd
> chalk it
> A A up
> A A A to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat reliable
> source.
> A A A A
> A A A Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that is
> quite
> A A A unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
> illogical.
> A A To
> A A A know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the car
> is
> A A A engineered properly. If everything goes according to plan,
> then your
> A A A temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole
> idea
> of
> A A A measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual matches
> the
> A A A Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere. The
> A A theoretical
> A A A coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway is
> 192F if
> A A A that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
> factors,
> A A where
> A A A it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be
> roughly
> that.
> A A A A
> A A A If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting
> stuck,
> a leak
> A A in
> A A A your cooling system, something that the computer model won't
> take
> A A into
> A A A account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical
> hasn't
> A A changed,
> A A A but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a
> gasket and
> A A A you have no idea.
> A A A A
> A A A This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of car
> A A A manufacturing... A
> A A A On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
> A A <[1][8][9][9]cengles at cox.net>
> A A A wrote:
> A A A A AA A Dear Forum,
> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A I was just reading
> the October
> A A A A Grassroots Motorsports
> A A A A AA A article about their project car a new Chevy Camaro
> that they
> A A A A were
> A A A A AA A modifying and testing on the track.
> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA ".......While
> enjoying
> the track
> A A outing,
> A A A A we confirmed
> A A A A AA A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
> Daytona:
> A A A A seemingly very
> A A A A AA A high engine oil temps.AA After just a few laps,
> the
> oil temp
> A A A A indicated
> A A A A AA A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up to
> within a
> A A A A couple
> A A A A AA A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA If nothing
> else, this
> A A A A warranted
> A A A A AA A some talks with Chevy.
> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA We had a chat
> and exchanged some
> A A A A emails with one of
> A A A A AA A their powertrain engineers and learned some
> interesting
> A A A A stuff.AA First
> A A A A AA A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
> actually
> A A A A measuring oil
> A A A A AA A temp per se.AA The gauge actually reflects what a
> computer
> A A A A model
> A A A A AA A simulation estimates the oil temperature should be
> based on
> A A A A current
> A A A A AA A information.AA It takes data parameters like
> ambient
> temp,
> A A rpm,
> A A A A engine
> A A A A AA A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position and
> dozens of
> A A A A other data
> A A A A AA A points to build a very accurate simulation.
> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA Amazing, yes.AA
> But the oil is
> A A A A literally 3 feet from
> A A A A AA A you.AA It's right there.AA Wouldn't it be easier
> to
> just
> A A A A measure the
> A A A A AA A temp?AA Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly
> accurate and
> A A A A quicker to
> A A A A AA A react than an actual gauge under normal
> conditions.AA And
> A A A A there's the
> A A A A AA A rub.AA Under typical loads the model is
> exceptional,
> but when
> A A A A the
> A A A A AA A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
> programming
> A A thanks
> A A A A to
> A A A A AA A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it
> may
> not be
> A A A A capable of
> A A A A AA A accurately predicting temps."
> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA They then discuss
> the loan of the
> A A A A Chevy old school
> A A A A AA A thermocouple to install and double check the
> accuracy
> of
> A A A A virtual oil
> A A A A AA A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
> measurement
> of the
> A A A A actual
> A A A A AA A temperature in real time.
> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA What is wrong
> with
> modern car
> A A A A manufacturers?AA A A
> A A A A AA A computer model simulation of the engine oil
> A A temperature?AA What
> A A A A could
> A A A A AA A ever go wrong with that?AA A I am appalled and
> flabbergasted
> A A by
> A A A A such
> A A A A AA A things.AA I am a Luddite.
> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA
> AA
> AA AA A Confused,A
> A A A A Chuck Engles
> A A A A _______________________________________________
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> --
> Sean Korb [42][42]spkorb at spkorb.org [43][43]http://www.spkorb.org
> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
> #1382
> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
> "Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
> Picasso
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-------------- next part --------------
I've heard also that BMWs won't allow you to check your oid level
either.
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso
<[1]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
A A This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works.A Reads
"dead
A A center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
A A "normal" range.A I was surprised and somewhat excited to see
the temp
A A gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
A A On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb
<[2]spkorb at gmail.com>
A A wrote:
A A A The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics
list a few
A A A years ago.AA It turns out people were calling in to the
dealer quite
A A a
A A A bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the
customers were
A A A worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing
was in
A A the
A A A red zone.
A A A Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
A A A Problem. Solved.
A A A sean
A A A On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
A A A <[1][1][3]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
A A A A AA A There's another reason to add to the list.AA This
is a very
A A A A car-saavy
A A A A AA A group of people.AA Most of those F-150s and
Explorers will be
A A A A sold to
A A A A AA A people who don't look at the instruments, much less
understand
A A A A them, or
A A A A AA A even care.AA I'd be surprised if they're there for
any reason
A A A A beyond
A A A A AA A norm and style.
A A A A AA A Richard
A A A A AA A Austin, TX
A A A A AA A From: DeTomaso
<[1][2][2][4]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf
A A of
A A A A Larry - Ohio
A A A A AA A Time <[2][3][3][5]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
A A A A AA A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
A A A A AA A To: 'Kirby Schrader'
<[3][4][4][6]kirbyschrader at mac.com>,
A A 'Charles
A A A A McCall'
A A A A AA A <[4][5][5][7]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A A A A AA A Cc: deTomaso List <[5][6][6][8]detomaso at poca.com>
A A A A AA A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with
this
A A A A AA A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat
bastards.
A A A A AA A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The
design and
A A A A programming
A A A A AA A code
A A A A AA A to do this in the computer would be a one time
cost. If you
A A A A then
A A A A AA A eliminate
A A A A AA A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a
sending
A A A A unit... well
A A A A AA A that
A A A A AA A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles
made. The
A A A A person who
A A A A AA A came up
A A A A AA A with that one is a VP now.
A A A A AA A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
A A A A AA A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
A A A A AA A -----Original Message-----
A A A A AA A From: DeTomaso
[[6]mailto:[7][7][9]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
A A A A Behalf Of Kirby
A A A A AA A Schrader
A A A A AA A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
A A A A AA A To: Charles McCall
A A A A AA A Cc: Pantera list serve
A A A A AA A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with
this
A A A A AA A Not quite as stupid, but..
A A A A AA A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an
oil pressure
A A A A gauge in
A A A A AA A the
A A A A AA A instrument cluster.
A A A A AA A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether
idling or at
A A A A rpm.
A A A A AA A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is
merely an
A A A A idiot
A A A A AA A light in
A A A A AA A the disguise of a gauge.
A A A A AA A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have
pressure.
A A A A AA A FWIW,
A A A A AA A Kirby
A A A A AA A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
A A A A <[7][8][8][10]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A A A AA A wrote:
A A A AA AA AA Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe
that I'd
A A A chalk it
A A A AA A up
A A A AA AA AA to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat
reliable
A A A source.
A A A AA AA AA A
A A A AA AA AA Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost
that is
A A A quite
A A A AA AA AA unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward
and
A A A illogical.
A A A AA A To
A A A AA AA AA know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if
the car
A A is
A A A AA AA AA engineered properly. If everything goes according
to plan,
A A A then your
A A A AA AA AA temps are under control and everyone is happy. The
whole
A A idea
A A A of
A A A AA AA AA measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual
matches
A A A the
A A A AA AA AA Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong
somewhere. The
A A A AA A theoretical
A A A AA AA AA coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the
highway is
A A A 192F if
A A A AA AA AA that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a
lot of
A A A factors,
A A A AA A where
A A A AA AA AA it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should
be
A A roughly
A A A that.
A A A AA AA AA A
A A A AA AA AA If something unexpected happens - a thermostat
getting
A A stuck,
A A A a leak
A A A AA A in
A A A AA AA AA your cooling system, something that the computer
model won't
A A A take
A A A AA A into
A A A AA AA AA account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your
theoretical
A A hasn't
A A A AA A changed,
A A A AA AA AA but your coolant system is empty, you are about to
blow a
A A A gasket and
A A A AA AA AA you have no idea.
A A A AA AA AA A
A A A AA AA AA This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire
history of car
A A A AA AA AA manufacturing... A
A A A AA AA AA On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
A A A A AA A <[1][8][9][9][11]cengles at cox.net>
A A A AA AA AA wrote:
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A Dear Forum,
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA A
I was just reading
A A A the October
A A A AA AA AA AA Grassroots Motorsports
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A article about their project car a new
Chevy Camaro
A A A that they
A A A AA AA AA AA were
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A modifying and testing on the track.
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA
".......While
A A enjoying
A A A the track
A A A AA A outing,
A A A AA AA AA AA we confirmed
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A the third thing that had begun to
concern us at
A A A Daytona:
A A A AA AA AA AA seemingly very
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A high engine oil temps.AAA After just a
few laps,
A A the
A A A oil temp
A A A AA AA AA AA indicated
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would
creep up to
A A A within a
A A A AA AA AA AA couple
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A needle widths of the 320-degree
mark.AAA If nothing
A A A else, this
A A A AA AA AA AA warranted
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A some talks with Chevy.
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA
AAA AAA We had a chat
A A A and exchanged some
A A A AA AA AA AA emails with one of
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A their powertrain engineers and learned
some
A A A interesting
A A A AA AA AA AA stuff.AAA First
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster
isn't
A A A actually
A A A AA AA AA AA measuring oil
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A temp per se.AAA The gauge actually
reflects what a
A A A computer
A A A AA AA AA AA model
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A simulation estimates the oil temperature
should be
A A A based on
A A A AA AA AA AA current
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A information.AAA It takes data
parameters like
A A ambient
A A A temp,
A A A AA A rpm,
A A A AA AA AA AA engine
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle
position and
A A A dozens of
A A A AA AA AA AA other data
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A points to build a very accurate
simulation.
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA
AAA Amazing, yes.AA
A A A But the oil is
A A A AA AA AA AA literally 3 feet from
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A you.AAA It's right there.AAA Wouldn't
it be easier
A A to
A A A just
A A A AA AA AA AA measure the
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A temp?AAA Well, Chevy says the modeling
is highly
A A A accurate and
A A A AA AA AA AA quicker to
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A react than an actual gauge under normal
A A A conditions.AAA And
A A A AA AA AA AA there's the
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A rub.AAA Under typical loads the model
is
A A exceptional,
A A A but when
A A A AA AA AA AA the
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A variables start to greatly exceed the
normal
A A A programming
A A A AA A thanks
A A A AA AA AA AA to
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A strained track action, even Chevy admits
that it
A A may
A A A not be
A A A AA AA AA AA capable of
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A accurately predicting temps."
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA
AAA They then discuss
A A A the loan of the
A A A AA AA AA AA Chevy old school
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A thermocouple to install and double check
the
A A accuracy
A A A of
A A A AA AA AA AA virtual oil
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
A A measurement
A A A of the
A A A AA AA AA AA actual
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A temperature in real time.
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA
AAA What is wrong
A A with
A A A modern car
A A A AA AA AA AA manufacturers?AAA A A
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A computer model simulation of the engine
oil
A A A AA A temperature?AAA What
A A A AA AA AA AA could
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A ever go wrong with that?AAA A I am
appalled and
A A A flabbergasted
A A A AA A by
A A A AA AA AA AA such
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A things.AAA I am a Luddite.
A A A AA AA AA AA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA
AAA AAA AAA AAA AA
A A AA
A A A AAA AAA A Confused,A
A A A AA AA AA AA Chuck Engles
A A A AA AA AA AA _______________________________________________
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[43][43][45]http://www.spkorb.org
A A A '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71
Pantera
A A A #1382
A A A "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
A A A "Computers are useless.AA They can only give you answers."
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135. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
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137. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
138. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
139. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
140. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
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142. mailto:cengles at cox.net
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155. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
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157. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
158. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
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161. mailto:cengles at cox.net
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179. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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