[DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
The Hougans
hougan at verizon.net
Wed Sep 16 22:39:55 EDT 2015
Hmm, brings back memories of my work on the ADCAP Mk48 torpedo...analog portion of the sonar, in my case.
Given the success of Microsoft, I suspect they are anything but idiots.
I'm convinced you're on the right track with planned obsolescence :(
On Behalf Of Ken Green via DeTomaso
I worked on torpedo G&C for a long time for an autonomous weapon, and trying to make the right decision based on the available sonar data was very challenging. You could look at the raw data and see what to do, but creating algorithms to do what is easy for a human, can be really difficult. A simple hardware failure in a gyro or the circuit that processed gyro data could also make the torpedo do something really bad, like attack the sub that shot the torpedo. There was suppose to be designed redundancy to make sure that could not happen, but it still did, and we had to add band aids on top of the original design to detect when a failure occurred.
This makes me wonder how the driverless cars will work out. The smarter you try to make software, the more likely there will be a glitch in the software and something very wrong will happen. I worry about the automatic braking systems.
I still am trying to figure out if Microsoft has a bunch of idiots working for them, or if they practice designed obsolescence to create a future market for replacement products.
Ken
From: Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
To: Dave <dave at damardirect.com>; Dennis Valdez <sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>; Brent Stewart <bjbstewart at yahoo.com>
Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
It isn¹t the engineer¹s fault. They design things. That¹s what they do.
My 1993 Cobra had the same type of idiot gauges. The oil pressure gauge
slowly went to slightly higher than midway, and it stayed there. That¹s
what most people expect.
If I recall correctly, they really were called idiot gauges. They were
idiot lights, that looked like a gauge, so you think it is a gauge, but
the needle really only tells you that you have pressure. It doesn¹t tell
you how much.
The software simulating all of that is the next iteration of idiot gauges.
The auto industry has no sense of direction. Or maybe they have their
target market pegged. Idiot virtual gauges for idiot detached drivers.
On 9/15/15, 10:44 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Dave"
<detomaso-bounces at poca.com on behalf of dave at damardirect.com> wrote:
>This is from an engineer friend Engineers... Would rather design a cup
>and die of dehydration in the process than drink from the paper cup
>hanging next to the water jug...
>
>IndyDave
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Valdez [mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 1:06 PM
>To: Brent Stewart
>Cc: spkorb at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>
>Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level is
>measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after checking
>a few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the computer field,
>thinks this is ridiculous. When he went to check the oil on his
>girlfriends BMW and couldn't find the dipstick, he said dad, where is the
>dipstick on this car? I told him about the sensors in the computer. He
>said that stuff fails and I told him I know...
>
>Dennis Valdez
>
>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso
>><detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
>>
>> This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works. Reads "dead
>> center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
>> "normal" range. I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the temp
>> gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
>> On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a few
>> years ago.A It turns out people were calling in to the dealer quite
>> a
>> bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers were
>> worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was in
>> the
>> red zone.
>> Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
>> Problem. Solved.
>> sean
>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
>> <[1][1]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
>> A A There's another reason to add to the list.A This is a very
>> car-saavy
>> A A group of people.A Most of those F-150s and Explorers will be
>> sold to
>> A A people who don't look at the instruments, much less
>>understand
>> them, or
>> A A even care.A I'd be surprised if they're there for any reason
>> beyond
>> A A norm and style.
>> A A Richard
>> A A Austin, TX
>> A A From: DeTomaso <[1][2][2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf
>> of
>> Larry - Ohio
>> A A Time <[2][3][3]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
>> A A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
>> A A To: 'Kirby Schrader' <[3][4][4]kirbyschrader at mac.com>,
>> 'Charles
>> McCall'
>> A A <[4][5][5]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>> A A Cc: deTomaso List <[5][6][6]detomaso at poca.com>
>> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>> A A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
>> A A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and
>> programming
>> A A code
>> A A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you
>> then
>> A A eliminate
>> A A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
>> unit... well
>> A A that
>> A A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
>> person who
>> A A came up
>> A A with that one is a VP now.
>> A A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
>> A A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
>> A A -----Original Message-----
>> A A From: DeTomaso [[6]mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
>> Behalf Of Kirby
>> A A Schrader
>> A A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
>> A A To: Charles McCall
>> A A Cc: Pantera list serve
>> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>> A A Not quite as stupid, but..
>> A A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil
>>pressure
>> gauge in
>> A A the
>> A A instrument cluster.
>> A A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or at
>> rpm.
>> A A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely an
>> idiot
>> A A light in
>> A A the disguise of a gauge.
>> A A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have pressure.
>> A A FWIW,
>> A A Kirby
>> A A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
>> <[7][8][8]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>> A A wrote:
>> A A A Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that I'd
>> chalk it
>> A A up
>> A A A to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat reliable
>> source.
>> A A A A
>> A A A Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that is
>> quite
>> A A A unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
>> illogical.
>> A A To
>> A A A know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the car
>> is
>> A A A engineered properly. If everything goes according to plan,
>> then your
>> A A A temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole
>> idea
>> of
>> A A A measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual matches
>> the
>> A A A Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere. The
>> A A theoretical
>> A A A coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway is
>> 192F if
>> A A A that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
>> factors,
>> A A where
>> A A A it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be
>> roughly
>> that.
>> A A A A
>> A A A If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting
>> stuck,
>> a leak
>> A A in
>> A A A your cooling system, something that the computer model
>>won't
>> take
>> A A into
>> A A A account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical
>> hasn't
>> A A changed,
>> A A A but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a
>> gasket and
>> A A A you have no idea.
>> A A A A
>> A A A This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of
>>car
>> A A A manufacturing... A
>> A A A On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
>> A A <[1][8][9][9]cengles at cox.net>
>> A A A wrote:
>> A A A A AA A Dear Forum,
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A I was just reading
>> the October
>> A A A A Grassroots Motorsports
>> A A A A AA A article about their project car a new Chevy Camaro
>> that they
>> A A A A were
>> A A A A AA A modifying and testing on the track.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA ".......While
>> enjoying
>> the track
>> A A outing,
>> A A A A we confirmed
>> A A A A AA A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
>> Daytona:
>> A A A A seemingly very
>> A A A A AA A high engine oil temps.AA After just a few laps,
>> the
>> oil temp
>> A A A A indicated
>> A A A A AA A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up to
>> within a
>> A A A A couple
>> A A A A AA A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA If
>>nothing
>> else, this
>> A A A A warranted
>> A A A A AA A some talks with Chevy.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA We had a
>>chat
>> and exchanged some
>> A A A A emails with one of
>> A A A A AA A their powertrain engineers and learned some
>> interesting
>> A A A A stuff.AA First
>> A A A A AA A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
>> actually
>> A A A A measuring oil
>> A A A A AA A temp per se.AA The gauge actually reflects what a
>> computer
>> A A A A model
>> A A A A AA A simulation estimates the oil temperature should be
>> based on
>> A A A A current
>> A A A A AA A information.AA It takes data parameters like
>> ambient
>> temp,
>> A A rpm,
>> A A A A engine
>> A A A A AA A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position and
>> dozens of
>> A A A A other data
>> A A A A AA A points to build a very accurate simulation.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA Amazing, yes.AA
>> But the oil is
>> A A A A literally 3 feet from
>> A A A A AA A you.AA It's right there.AA Wouldn't it be easier
>> to
>> just
>> A A A A measure the
>> A A A A AA A temp?AA Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly
>> accurate and
>> A A A A quicker to
>> A A A A AA A react than an actual gauge under normal
>> conditions.AA And
>> A A A A there's the
>> A A A A AA A rub.AA Under typical loads the model is
>> exceptional,
>> but when
>> A A A A the
>> A A A A AA A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
>> programming
>> A A thanks
>> A A A A to
>> A A A A AA A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it
>> may
>> not be
>> A A A A capable of
>> A A A A AA A accurately predicting temps."
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA They then
>>discuss
>> the loan of the
>> A A A A Chevy old school
>> A A A A AA A thermocouple to install and double check the
>> accuracy
>> of
>> A A A A virtual oil
>> A A A A AA A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
>> measurement
>> of the
>> A A A A actual
>> A A A A AA A temperature in real time.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA What is wrong
>> with
>> modern car
>> A A A A manufacturers?AA A A
>> A A A A AA A computer model simulation of the engine oil
>> A A temperature?AA What
>> A A A A could
>> A A A A AA A ever go wrong with that?AA A I am appalled and
>> flabbergasted
>> A A by
>> A A A A such
>> A A A A AA A things.AA I am a Luddite.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA
>> AA
>> AA AA A Confused,A
>> A A A A Chuck Engles
>> A A A A _______________________________________________
>> A A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> A A A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> A A A A DeTomaso mailing list
>> A A A A [2][9][10][10]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A A A A
>> [3][10][11][11]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
>> unsubscribe,
>> A A A A etc.) use the links above.
>> A A References
>> A A A 1. [11]mailto:[12][12]cengles at cox.net
>> A A A 2. [12]mailto:[13][13]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A A A 3.
>> [13][14][14]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A _______________________________________________
>> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> A A DeTomaso mailing list
>> A A [14][15][15]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A A
>>[15][16][16]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
>> unsubscribe,
>> etc.)
>> A A use
>> A A the links above.
>> A A _______________________________________________
>> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> A A DeTomaso mailing list
>> A A [16][17][17]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A A
>>[17][18][18]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
>> unsubscribe,
>> etc.)
>> A A use
>> A A the links above.
>> A A _______________________________________________
>> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> A A DeTomaso mailing list
>> A A [18][19][19]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A A
>>[19][20][20]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
>> unsubscribe,
>> etc.)
>> A A use the links above.
>> References
>> A A 1. mailto:[21][21]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> A A 2. mailto:[22][22]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> A A 3. mailto:[23][23]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> A A 4. mailto:[24][24]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> A A 5. mailto:[25][25]detomaso at poca.com
>> A A 6. mailto:[26][26]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> A A 7. mailto:[27][27]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> A A 8. mailto:[28][28]cengles at cox.net
>> A A 9. mailto:[29][29]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 10. [30][30]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 11. mailto:[31][31]cengles at cox.net
>> A 12. mailto:[32][32]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 13. [33][33]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 14. mailto:[34][34]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 15. [35][35]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 16. mailto:[36][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 17. [37][37]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 18. mailto:[38][38]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 19. [39][39]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [40][40]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> [41][41]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
>> etc.) use the links above.
>> --
>> Sean Korb [42][42]spkorb at spkorb.org [43][43]http://www.spkorb.org
>> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>> #1382
>> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>> "Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
>> Picasso
>> References
>> 1. mailto:[44]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>> 2. mailto:[45]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 3. mailto:[46]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 4. mailto:[47]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 5. mailto:[48]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 6. mailto:[49]detomaso at poca.com
>> 7. mailto:[50]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 8. mailto:[51]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 9. mailto:[52]cengles at cox.net
>> 10. mailto:[53]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 11. [54]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 12. mailto:[55]cengles at cox.net
>> 13. mailto:[56]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 14. [57]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 15. mailto:[58]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 16. [59]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 17. mailto:[60]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 18. [61]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 19. mailto:[62]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 20. [63]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 21. mailto:[64]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 22. mailto:[65]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 23. mailto:[66]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 24. mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 25. mailto:[68]detomaso at poca.com
>> 26. mailto:[69]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 27. mailto:[70]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 28. mailto:[71]cengles at cox.net
>> 29. mailto:[72]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 30. [73]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 31. mailto:[74]cengles at cox.net
>> 32. mailto:[75]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 33. [76]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 34. mailto:[77]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 35. [78]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 36. mailto:[79]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 37. [80]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 38. mailto:[81]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 39. [82]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 40. mailto:[83]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 41. [84]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 42. mailto:[85]spkorb at spkorb.org
>> 43. [86]http://www.spkorb.org/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [87]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> [88]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>> use the links above.
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>> 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 3. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 4. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 5. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 6. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 7. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 8. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 9. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 12. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 13. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 14. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 15. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 16. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 19. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 20. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 21. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 22. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 23. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 24. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 25. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 26. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 27. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 28. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 29. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 30. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 31. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 32. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 33. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 34. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 35. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 36. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 37. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 38. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 39. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 40. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 42. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
>> 43. http://www.spkorb.org/
>> 44. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>> 45. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 46. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 47. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 48. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 49. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 50. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 51. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 52. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 53. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 54. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 55. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 56. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 57. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 58. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 59. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 60. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 61. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 62. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 63. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 64. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 65. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 66. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 67. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 68. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 69. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 70. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 71. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 72. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 73. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 74. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 75. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 76. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 77. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 78. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 79. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 80. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 81. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 82. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 83. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 84. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 85. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
>> 86. http://www.spkorb.org/
>> 87. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 88. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>>use the links above.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>DeTomaso mailing list
>DeTomaso at poca.com
>http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
>To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
>the links above.
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at poca.com
http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.
More information about the DeTomaso
mailing list