[DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Ken Green
kenn_green at yahoo.com
Wed Sep 16 12:37:58 EDT 2015
I worked on torpedo G&C for a long time for an autonomous weapon, and trying to make the right decision based on the available sonar data was very challenging. You could look at the raw data and see what to do, but creating algorithms to do what is easy for a human, can be really difficult. A simple hardware failure in a gyro or the circuit that processed gyro data could also make the torpedo do something really bad, like attack the sub that shot the torpedo. There was suppose to be designed redundancy to make sure that could not happen, but it still did, and we had to add band aids on top of the original design to detect when a failure occurred.
This makes me wonder how the driverless cars will work out. The smarter you try to make software, the more likely there will be a glitch in the software and something very wrong will happen. I worry about the automatic braking systems.
I still am trying to figure out if Microsoft has a bunch of idiots working for them, or if they practice designed obsolescence to create a future market for replacement products.
Ken
From: Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
To: Dave <dave at damardirect.com>; Dennis Valdez <sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>; Brent Stewart <bjbstewart at yahoo.com>
Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
It isn¹t the engineer¹s fault. They design things. That¹s what they do.
My 1993 Cobra had the same type of idiot gauges. The oil pressure gauge
slowly went to slightly higher than midway, and it stayed there. That¹s
what most people expect.
If I recall correctly, they really were called idiot gauges. They were
idiot lights, that looked like a gauge, so you think it is a gauge, but
the needle really only tells you that you have pressure. It doesn¹t tell
you how much.
The software simulating all of that is the next iteration of idiot gauges.
The auto industry has no sense of direction. Or maybe they have their
target market pegged. Idiot virtual gauges for idiot detached drivers.
On 9/15/15, 10:44 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Dave"
<detomaso-bounces at poca.com on behalf of dave at damardirect.com> wrote:
>This is from an engineer friend Engineers... Would rather design a cup
>and die of dehydration in the process than drink from the paper cup
>hanging next to the water jug...
>
>IndyDave
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Valdez [mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 1:06 PM
>To: Brent Stewart
>Cc: spkorb at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>
>Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level is
>measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after checking
>a few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the computer field,
>thinks this is ridiculous. When he went to check the oil on his
>girlfriends BMW and couldn't find the dipstick, he said dad, where is the
>dipstick on this car? I told him about the sensors in the computer. He
>said that stuff fails and I told him I know...
>
>Dennis Valdez
>
>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso
>><detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
>>
>> This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works. Reads "dead
>> center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
>> "normal" range. I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the temp
>> gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
>> On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a few
>> years ago.A It turns out people were calling in to the dealer quite
>> a
>> bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers were
>> worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was in
>> the
>> red zone.
>> Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
>> Problem. Solved.
>> sean
>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
>> <[1][1]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
>> A A There's another reason to add to the list.A This is a very
>> car-saavy
>> A A group of people.A Most of those F-150s and Explorers will be
>> sold to
>> A A people who don't look at the instruments, much less
>>understand
>> them, or
>> A A even care.A I'd be surprised if they're there for any reason
>> beyond
>> A A norm and style.
>> A A Richard
>> A A Austin, TX
>> A A From: DeTomaso <[1][2][2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf
>> of
>> Larry - Ohio
>> A A Time <[2][3][3]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
>> A A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
>> A A To: 'Kirby Schrader' <[3][4][4]kirbyschrader at mac.com>,
>> 'Charles
>> McCall'
>> A A <[4][5][5]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>> A A Cc: deTomaso List <[5][6][6]detomaso at poca.com>
>> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>> A A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
>> A A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and
>> programming
>> A A code
>> A A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you
>> then
>> A A eliminate
>> A A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
>> unit... well
>> A A that
>> A A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
>> person who
>> A A came up
>> A A with that one is a VP now.
>> A A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
>> A A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
>> A A -----Original Message-----
>> A A From: DeTomaso [[6]mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
>> Behalf Of Kirby
>> A A Schrader
>> A A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
>> A A To: Charles McCall
>> A A Cc: Pantera list serve
>> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>> A A Not quite as stupid, but..
>> A A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil
>>pressure
>> gauge in
>> A A the
>> A A instrument cluster.
>> A A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or at
>> rpm.
>> A A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely an
>> idiot
>> A A light in
>> A A the disguise of a gauge.
>> A A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have pressure.
>> A A FWIW,
>> A A Kirby
>> A A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
>> <[7][8][8]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>> A A wrote:
>> A A A Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that I'd
>> chalk it
>> A A up
>> A A A to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat reliable
>> source.
>> A A A A
>> A A A Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that is
>> quite
>> A A A unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
>> illogical.
>> A A To
>> A A A know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the car
>> is
>> A A A engineered properly. If everything goes according to plan,
>> then your
>> A A A temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole
>> idea
>> of
>> A A A measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual matches
>> the
>> A A A Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere. The
>> A A theoretical
>> A A A coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway is
>> 192F if
>> A A A that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
>> factors,
>> A A where
>> A A A it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be
>> roughly
>> that.
>> A A A A
>> A A A If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting
>> stuck,
>> a leak
>> A A in
>> A A A your cooling system, something that the computer model
>>won't
>> take
>> A A into
>> A A A account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical
>> hasn't
>> A A changed,
>> A A A but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a
>> gasket and
>> A A A you have no idea.
>> A A A A
>> A A A This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of
>>car
>> A A A manufacturing... A
>> A A A On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
>> A A <[1][8][9][9]cengles at cox.net>
>> A A A wrote:
>> A A A A AA A Dear Forum,
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A I was just reading
>> the October
>> A A A A Grassroots Motorsports
>> A A A A AA A article about their project car a new Chevy Camaro
>> that they
>> A A A A were
>> A A A A AA A modifying and testing on the track.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA ".......While
>> enjoying
>> the track
>> A A outing,
>> A A A A we confirmed
>> A A A A AA A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
>> Daytona:
>> A A A A seemingly very
>> A A A A AA A high engine oil temps.AA After just a few laps,
>> the
>> oil temp
>> A A A A indicated
>> A A A A AA A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up to
>> within a
>> A A A A couple
>> A A A A AA A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA If
>>nothing
>> else, this
>> A A A A warranted
>> A A A A AA A some talks with Chevy.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA We had a
>>chat
>> and exchanged some
>> A A A A emails with one of
>> A A A A AA A their powertrain engineers and learned some
>> interesting
>> A A A A stuff.AA First
>> A A A A AA A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
>> actually
>> A A A A measuring oil
>> A A A A AA A temp per se.AA The gauge actually reflects what a
>> computer
>> A A A A model
>> A A A A AA A simulation estimates the oil temperature should be
>> based on
>> A A A A current
>> A A A A AA A information.AA It takes data parameters like
>> ambient
>> temp,
>> A A rpm,
>> A A A A engine
>> A A A A AA A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position and
>> dozens of
>> A A A A other data
>> A A A A AA A points to build a very accurate simulation.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA Amazing, yes.AA
>> But the oil is
>> A A A A literally 3 feet from
>> A A A A AA A you.AA It's right there.AA Wouldn't it be easier
>> to
>> just
>> A A A A measure the
>> A A A A AA A temp?AA Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly
>> accurate and
>> A A A A quicker to
>> A A A A AA A react than an actual gauge under normal
>> conditions.AA And
>> A A A A there's the
>> A A A A AA A rub.AA Under typical loads the model is
>> exceptional,
>> but when
>> A A A A the
>> A A A A AA A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
>> programming
>> A A thanks
>> A A A A to
>> A A A A AA A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it
>> may
>> not be
>> A A A A capable of
>> A A A A AA A accurately predicting temps."
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA They then
>>discuss
>> the loan of the
>> A A A A Chevy old school
>> A A A A AA A thermocouple to install and double check the
>> accuracy
>> of
>> A A A A virtual oil
>> A A A A AA A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
>> measurement
>> of the
>> A A A A actual
>> A A A A AA A temperature in real time.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA What is wrong
>> with
>> modern car
>> A A A A manufacturers?AA A A
>> A A A A AA A computer model simulation of the engine oil
>> A A temperature?AA What
>> A A A A could
>> A A A A AA A ever go wrong with that?AA A I am appalled and
>> flabbergasted
>> A A by
>> A A A A such
>> A A A A AA A things.AA I am a Luddite.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA
>> AA
>> AA AA A Confused,A
>> A A A A Chuck Engles
>> A A A A _______________________________________________
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>> A A 3. mailto:[23][23]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> A A 4. mailto:[24][24]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> A A 5. mailto:[25][25]detomaso at poca.com
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>> A A 7. mailto:[27][27]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> A A 8. mailto:[28][28]cengles at cox.net
>> A A 9. mailto:[29][29]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 10. [30][30]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 11. mailto:[31][31]cengles at cox.net
>> A 12. mailto:[32][32]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 13. [33][33]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 14. mailto:[34][34]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 15. [35][35]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 16. mailto:[36][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 17. [37][37]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 18. mailto:[38][38]DeTomaso at poca.com
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>> --
>> Sean Korb [42][42]spkorb at spkorb.org [43][43]http://www.spkorb.org
>> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>> #1382
>> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>> "Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
>> Picasso
>> References
>> 1. mailto:[44]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>> 2. mailto:[45]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 3. mailto:[46]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 4. mailto:[47]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 5. mailto:[48]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 6. mailto:[49]detomaso at poca.com
>> 7. mailto:[50]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 8. mailto:[51]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 9. mailto:[52]cengles at cox.net
>> 10. mailto:[53]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 11. [54]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 12. mailto:[55]cengles at cox.net
>> 13. mailto:[56]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 14. [57]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 15. mailto:[58]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 16. [59]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 17. mailto:[60]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 18. [61]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 19. mailto:[62]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 20. [63]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 21. mailto:[64]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 22. mailto:[65]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 23. mailto:[66]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 24. mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 25. mailto:[68]detomaso at poca.com
>> 26. mailto:[69]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 27. mailto:[70]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 28. mailto:[71]cengles at cox.net
>> 29. mailto:[72]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 30. [73]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 31. mailto:[74]cengles at cox.net
>> 32. mailto:[75]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 33. [76]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 34. mailto:[77]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 35. [78]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 36. mailto:[79]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 37. [80]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 38. mailto:[81]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 39. [82]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 40. mailto:[83]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 41. [84]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 42. mailto:[85]spkorb at spkorb.org
>> 43. [86]http://www.spkorb.org/
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>>
>> 1. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>> 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 3. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 4. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 5. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 6. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 7. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 8. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 9. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 12. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 13. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 14. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 15. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 16. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 19. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 20. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 21. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 22. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 23. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 24. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 25. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 26. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 27. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 28. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 29. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 30. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 31. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 32. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 33. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 34. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 35. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 36. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 37. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 38. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 39. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 40. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 42. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
>> 43. http://www.spkorb.org/
>> 44. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>> 45. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 46. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 47. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 48. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 49. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 50. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 51. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 52. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 53. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 54. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 55. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 56. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 57. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 58. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 59. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 60. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 61. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 62. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 63. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 64. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 65. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 66. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 67. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 68. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 69. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 70. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 71. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 72. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 73. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 74. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>> 75. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 76. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 77. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 78. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 79. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 80. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 81. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 82. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 83. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 84. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 85. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
>> 86. http://www.spkorb.org/
>> 87. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 88. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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I worked on torpedo G&C for a long time for an autonomous weapon, and
trying to make the right decision based on the available sonar data was
very challenging. You could look at the raw data and see what to do,
but creating algorithms to do what is easy for a human, can be really
difficult. A simple hardware failure in a gyro or the circuit that
processed gyro data could also make the torpedo do something really
bad, like attack the sub that shot the torpedo. There was suppose to
be designed redundancy to make sure that could not happen, but it still
did, and we had to add band aids on top of the original design to
detect when a failure occurred.
This makes me wonder how the driverless cars will work out. The
smarter you try to make software, the more likely there will be a
glitch in the software and something very wrong will happen. I worry
about the automatic braking systems.
I still am trying to figure out if Microsoft has a bunch of idiots
working for them, or if they practice designed obsolescence to create a
future market for replacement products.
Ken
__________________________________________________________________
From: Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
To: Dave <dave at damardirect.com>; Dennis Valdez <sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>;
Brent Stewart <bjbstewart at yahoo.com>
Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
It isnA^1t the engineerA^1s fault. They design things. ThatA^1s what
they do.
My 1993 Cobra had the same type of idiot gauges. The oil pressure
gauge
slowly went to slightly higher than midway, and it stayed there.
ThatA^1s
what most people expect.
If I recall correctly, they really were called idiot gauges. They were
idiot lights, that looked like a gauge, so you think it is a gauge, but
the needle really only tells you that you have pressure. It doesnA^1t
tell
you how much.
The software simulating all of that is the next iteration of idiot
gauges.
The auto industry has no sense of direction. Or maybe they have their
target market pegged. Idiot virtual gauges for idiot detached drivers.
On 9/15/15, 10:44 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Dave"
<[1]detomaso-bounces at poca.com on behalf of [2]dave at damardirect.com>
wrote:
>This is from an engineer friend Engineers... Would rather design a
cup
>and die of dehydration in the process than drink from the paper cup
>hanging next to the water jug...
>
>IndyDave
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Valdez [mailto:[3]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 1:06 PM
>To: Brent Stewart
>Cc: [4]spkorb at gmail.com; [5]detomaso at poca.com
>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>
>Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level is
>measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after
checking
>a few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the computer field,
>thinks this is ridiculous. When he went to check the oil on his
>girlfriends BMW and couldn't find the dipstick, he said dad, where is
the
>dipstick on this car? I told him about the sensors in the computer. He
>said that stuff fails and I told him I know...
>
>Dennis Valdez
>
>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso
>><[6]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
>>
>> This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works. Reads "dead
>> center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
>> "normal" range. I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the
temp
>> gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
>> On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb
<[7]spkorb at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a
few
>> years ago.A It turns out people were calling in to the dealer
quite
>> a
>> bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers
were
>> worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was
in
>> the
>> red zone.
>> Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
>> Problem. Solved.
>> sean
>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
>> <[1][1][8]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
>> A A There's another reason to add to the list.A This is a
very
>> car-saavy
>> A A group of people.A Most of those F-150s and Explorers will
be
>> sold to
>> A A people who don't look at the instruments, much less
>>understand
>> them, or
>> A A even care.A I'd be surprised if they're there for any
reason
>> beyond
>> A A norm and style.
>> A A Richard
>> A A Austin, TX
>> A A From: DeTomaso <[1][2][2][9]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on
behalf
>> of
>> Larry - Ohio
>> A A Time <[2][3][3][10]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
>> A A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
>> A A To: 'Kirby Schrader' <[3][4][4][11]kirbyschrader at mac.com>,
>> 'Charles
>> McCall'
>> A A <[4][5][5][12]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>> A A Cc: deTomaso List <[5][6][6][13]detomaso at poca.com>
>> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>> A A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat
bastards.
>> A A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design
and
>> programming
>> A A code
>> A A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If
you
>> then
>> A A eliminate
>> A A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
>> unit... well
>> A A that
>> A A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
>> person who
>> A A came up
>> A A with that one is a VP now.
>> A A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
>> A A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
>> A A -----Original Message-----
>> A A From: DeTomaso
[[6]mailto:[7][7][14]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
>> Behalf Of Kirby
>> A A Schrader
>> A A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
>> A A To: Charles McCall
>> A A Cc: Pantera list serve
>> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>> A A Not quite as stupid, but..
>> A A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil
>>pressure
>> gauge in
>> A A the
>> A A instrument cluster.
>> A A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or
at
>> rpm.
>> A A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely
an
>> idiot
>> A A light in
>> A A the disguise of a gauge.
>> A A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have
pressure.
>> A A FWIW,
>> A A Kirby
>> A A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
>> <[7][8][8][15]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>> A A wrote:
>> A A A Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that
I'd
>> chalk it
>> A A up
>> A A A to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat
reliable
>> source.
>> A A A A
>> A A A Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that
is
>> quite
>> A A A unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
>> illogical.
>> A A To
>> A A A know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the
car
>> is
>> A A A engineered properly. If everything goes according to
plan,
>> then your
>> A A A temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole
>> idea
>> of
>> A A A measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual
matches
>> the
>> A A A Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere.
The
>> A A theoretical
>> A A A coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway
is
>> 192F if
>> A A A that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
>> factors,
>> A A where
>> A A A it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be
>> roughly
>> that.
>> A A A A
>> A A A If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting
>> stuck,
>> a leak
>> A A in
>> A A A your cooling system, something that the computer model
>>won't
>> take
>> A A into
>> A A A account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical
>> hasn't
>> A A changed,
>> A A A but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow
a
>> gasket and
>> A A A you have no idea.
>> A A A A
>> A A A This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of
>>car
>> A A A manufacturing... A
>> A A A On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
>> A A <[1][8][9][9][16]cengles at cox.net>
>> A A A wrote:
>> A A A A AA A Dear Forum,
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A I was just
reading
>> the October
>> A A A A Grassroots Motorsports
>> A A A A AA A article about their project car a new Chevy
Camaro
>> that they
>> A A A A were
>> A A A A AA A modifying and testing on the track.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA ".......While
>> enjoying
>> the track
>> A A outing,
>> A A A A we confirmed
>> A A A A AA A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
>> Daytona:
>> A A A A seemingly very
>> A A A A AA A high engine oil temps.AA After just a few
laps,
>> the
>> oil temp
>> A A A A indicated
>> A A A A AA A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up
to
>> within a
>> A A A A couple
>> A A A A AA A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA If
>>nothing
>> else, this
>> A A A A warranted
>> A A A A AA A some talks with Chevy.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA We had a
>>chat
>> and exchanged some
>> A A A A emails with one of
>> A A A A AA A their powertrain engineers and learned some
>> interesting
>> A A A A stuff.AA First
>> A A A A AA A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
>> actually
>> A A A A measuring oil
>> A A A A AA A temp per se.AA The gauge actually reflects
what a
>> computer
>> A A A A model
>> A A A A AA A simulation estimates the oil temperature should
be
>> based on
>> A A A A current
>> A A A A AA A information.AA It takes data parameters like
>> ambient
>> temp,
>> A A rpm,
>> A A A A engine
>> A A A A AA A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position
and
>> dozens of
>> A A A A other data
>> A A A A AA A points to build a very accurate simulation.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA Amazing,
yes.AA
>> But the oil is
>> A A A A literally 3 feet from
>> A A A A AA A you.AA It's right there.AA Wouldn't it be
easier
>> to
>> just
>> A A A A measure the
>> A A A A AA A temp?AA Well, Chevy says the modeling is
highly
>> accurate and
>> A A A A quicker to
>> A A A A AA A react than an actual gauge under normal
>> conditions.AA And
>> A A A A there's the
>> A A A A AA A rub.AA Under typical loads the model is
>> exceptional,
>> but when
>> A A A A the
>> A A A A AA A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
>> programming
>> A A thanks
>> A A A A to
>> A A A A AA A strained track action, even Chevy admits that
it
>> may
>> not be
>> A A A A capable of
>> A A A A AA A accurately predicting temps."
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA They then
>>discuss
>> the loan of the
>> A A A A Chevy old school
>> A A A A AA A thermocouple to install and double check the
>> accuracy
>> of
>> A A A A virtual oil
>> A A A A AA A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
>> measurement
>> of the
>> A A A A actual
>> A A A A AA A temperature in real time.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA What is wrong
>> with
>> modern car
>> A A A A manufacturers?AA A A
>> A A A A AA A computer model simulation of the engine oil
>> A A temperature?AA What
>> A A A A could
>> A A A A AA A ever go wrong with that?AA A I am appalled and
>> flabbergasted
>> A A by
>> A A A A such
>> A A A A AA A things.AA I am a Luddite.
>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA
AA
>> AA
>> AA AA A Confused,A
>> A A A A Chuck Engles
>> A A A A _______________________________________________
>> A A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> A A A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> A A A A DeTomaso mailing list
>> A A A A [2][9][10][10][17]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A A A A
>>
[3][10][11][11][18]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
>> unsubscribe,
>> A A A A etc.) use the links above.
>> A A References
>> A A A 1. [11]mailto:[12][12][19]cengles at cox.net
>> A A A 2. [12]mailto:[13][13][20]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A A A 3.
>>
[13][14][14][21]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A _______________________________________________
>> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> A A DeTomaso mailing list
>> A A [14][15][15][22]DeTomaso at poca.com
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>> A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
>> unsubscribe,
>> etc.)
>> A A use
>> A A the links above.
>> A A _______________________________________________
>> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> A A DeTomaso mailing list
>> A A [16][17][17][24]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A A
>>[17][18][18][25]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
>> unsubscribe,
>> etc.)
>> A A use
>> A A the links above.
>> A A _______________________________________________
>> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> A A DeTomaso mailing list
>> A A [18][19][19][26]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A A
>>[19][20][20][27]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
>> unsubscribe,
>> etc.)
>> A A use the links above.
>> References
>> A A 1. mailto:[21][21][28]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> A A 2. mailto:[22][22][29]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> A A 3. mailto:[23][23][30]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> A A 4. mailto:[24][24][31]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> A A 5. mailto:[25][25][32]detomaso at poca.com
>> A A 6. mailto:[26][26][33]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> A A 7. mailto:[27][27][34]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> A A 8. mailto:[28][28][35]cengles at cox.net
>> A A 9. mailto:[29][29][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 10.
[30][30][37]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 11. mailto:[31][31][38]cengles at cox.net
>> A 12. mailto:[32][32][39]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 13.
[33][33][40]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 14. mailto:[34][34][41]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 15.
[35][35][42]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 16. mailto:[36][36][43]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 17.
[37][37][44]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 18. mailto:[38][38][45]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 19.
[39][39][46]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [40][40][47]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> [41][41][48]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
>> etc.) use the links above.
>> --
>> Sean Korb [42][42][49]spkorb at spkorb.org
[43][43][50]http://www.spkorb.org
>> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71
Pantera
>> #1382
>> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>> "Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
>> Picasso
>> References
>> 1. mailto:[44][51]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>> 2. mailto:[45][52]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 3. mailto:[46][53]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 4. mailto:[47][54]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 5. mailto:[48][55]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 6. mailto:[49][56]detomaso at poca.com
>> 7. mailto:[50][57]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 8. mailto:[51][58]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 9. mailto:[52][59]cengles at cox.net
>> 10. mailto:[53][60]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 11. [54][61]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 12. mailto:[55][62]cengles at cox.net
>> 13. mailto:[56][63]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 14. [57][64]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 15. mailto:[58][65]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 16. [59][66]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 17. mailto:[60][67]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 18. [61][68]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 19. mailto:[62][69]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 20. [63][70]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 21. mailto:[64][71]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 22. mailto:[65][72]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 23. mailto:[66][73]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 24. mailto:[67][74]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 25. mailto:[68][75]detomaso at poca.com
>> 26. mailto:[69][76]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 27. mailto:[70][77]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 28. mailto:[71][78]cengles at cox.net
>> 29. mailto:[72][79]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 30. [73][80]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 31. mailto:[74][81]cengles at cox.net
>> 32. mailto:[75][82]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 33. [76][83]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 34. mailto:[77][84]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 35. [78][85]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 36. mailto:[79][86]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 37. [80][87]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 38. mailto:[81][88]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 39. [82][89]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 40. mailto:[83][90]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 41. [84][91]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 42. mailto:[85][92]spkorb at spkorb.org
>> 43. [86][93]http://www.spkorb.org/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [87][94]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> [88][95]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
>> use the links above.
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:[96]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>> 2. mailto:[97]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 3. mailto:[98]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 4. mailto:[99]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 5. mailto:[100]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 6. mailto:[101]detomaso at poca.com
>> 7. mailto:[102]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 8. mailto:[103]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 9. mailto:[104]cengles at cox.net
>> 10. mailto:[105]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 11. [106]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 12. mailto:[107]cengles at cox.net
>> 13. mailto:[108]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 14. [109]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 15. mailto:[110]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 16. [111]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 17. mailto:[112]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 18. [113]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 19. mailto:[114]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 20. [115]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 21. mailto:[116]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 22. mailto:[117]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 23. mailto:[118]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 24. mailto:[119]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 25. mailto:[120]detomaso at poca.com
>> 26. mailto:[121]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 27. mailto:[122]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 28. mailto:[123]cengles at cox.net
>> 29. mailto:[124]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 30. [125]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 31. mailto:[126]cengles at cox.net
>> 32. mailto:[127]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 33. [128]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 34. mailto:[129]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 35. [130]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 36. mailto:[131]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 37. [132]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 38. mailto:[133]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 39. [134]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 40. mailto:[135]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 41. [136]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 42. mailto:[137]spkorb at spkorb.org
>> 43. [138]http://www.spkorb.org/
>> 44. mailto:[139]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>> 45. mailto:[140]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 46. mailto:[141]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 47. mailto:[142]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 48. mailto:[143]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 49. mailto:[144]detomaso at poca.com
>> 50. mailto:[145]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 51. mailto:[146]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 52. mailto:[147]cengles at cox.net
>> 53. mailto:[148]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 54. [149]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 55. mailto:[150]cengles at cox.net
>> 56. mailto:[151]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 57. [152]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 58. mailto:[153]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 59. [154]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 60. mailto:[155]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 61. [156]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 62. mailto:[157]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 63. [158]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 64. mailto:[159]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 65. mailto:[160]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>> 66. mailto:[161]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>> 67. mailto:[162]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 68. mailto:[163]detomaso at poca.com
>> 69. mailto:[164]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> 70. mailto:[165]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 71. mailto:[166]cengles at cox.net
>> 72. mailto:[167]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 73. [168]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 74. mailto:[169]cengles at cox.net
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References
1. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
2. mailto:dave at damardirect.com
3. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
4. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
5. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
6. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
7. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
8. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
9. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
10. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
11. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
12. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
13. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
14. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
15. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
16. mailto:cengles at cox.net
17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
19. mailto:cengles at cox.net
20. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
21. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
22. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
23. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
24. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
25. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
26. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
27. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
28. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
29. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
30. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
31. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
32. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
33. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
34. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
35. mailto:cengles at cox.net
36. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
37. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
38. mailto:cengles at cox.net
39. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
40. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
41. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
42. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
43. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
44. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
45. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
46. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
47. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
48. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
49. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
50. http://www.spkorb.org/
51. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
52. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
53. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
54. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
55. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
56. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
57. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
58. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
59. mailto:cengles at cox.net
60. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
61. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
62. mailto:cengles at cox.net
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64. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
65. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
66. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
67. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
68. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
69. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
70. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
71. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
72. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
73. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
74. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
75. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
76. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
77. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
78. mailto:cengles at cox.net
79. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
80. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
81. mailto:cengles at cox.net
82. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
83. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
84. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
85. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
86. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
87. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
88. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
89. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
90. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
91. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
92. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
93. http://www.spkorb.org/
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95. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
96. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
97. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
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99. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
100. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
101. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
102. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
103. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
104. mailto:cengles at cox.net
105. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
106. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
107. mailto:cengles at cox.net
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110. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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115. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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119. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
120. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
121. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
122. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
123. mailto:cengles at cox.net
124. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
125. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
126. mailto:cengles at cox.net
127. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
128. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
129. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
130. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
131. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
132. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
133. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
134. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
135. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
136. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
137. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
138. http://www.spkorb.org/
139. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
140. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
141. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
142. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
143. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
144. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
145. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
146. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
147. mailto:cengles at cox.net
148. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
149. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
150. mailto:cengles at cox.net
151. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
152. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
153. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
154. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
155. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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157. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
158. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
159. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
160. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
161. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
162. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
163. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
164. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
165. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
166. mailto:cengles at cox.net
167. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
168. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
169. mailto:cengles at cox.net
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180. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
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