[DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this

Ken Green kenn_green at yahoo.com
Wed Sep 16 12:37:58 EDT 2015


I worked on torpedo G&C for a long time for an autonomous weapon, and trying to make the right decision based on the available sonar data was very challenging.  You could look at the raw data and see what to do, but creating algorithms to do what is easy for a human, can be really difficult.  A simple hardware failure in a gyro or the circuit that processed gyro data could also make the torpedo do something really bad, like attack the sub that shot the torpedo.  There was suppose to be designed redundancy to make sure that could not happen, but it still did, and we had to add band aids on top of the original design to detect when a failure occurred.  
This makes me wonder how the driverless cars will work out.  The smarter you try to make software, the more likely there will be a glitch in the software and something very wrong will happen.  I worry about the automatic braking systems.  
I still am trying to figure out if Microsoft has a bunch of idiots working for them, or if they practice designed obsolescence to create a future market for replacement products.
Ken
       From: Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
 To: Dave <dave at damardirect.com>; Dennis Valdez <sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>; Brent Stewart <bjbstewart at yahoo.com> 
Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com> 
 Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 7:57 PM
 Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
   
It isn¹t the engineer¹s fault.  They design things.  That¹s what they do.

My 1993 Cobra had the same type of idiot gauges.  The oil pressure gauge
slowly went to slightly higher than midway, and it stayed there.  That¹s
what most people expect.

If I recall correctly, they really were called idiot gauges.  They were
idiot lights, that looked like a gauge, so you think it is a gauge, but
the needle really only tells you that you have pressure.  It doesn¹t tell
you how much.

The software simulating all of that is the next iteration of idiot gauges.

The auto industry has no sense of direction.  Or maybe they have their
target market pegged.  Idiot virtual gauges for idiot detached drivers.


On 9/15/15, 10:44 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Dave"
<detomaso-bounces at poca.com on behalf of dave at damardirect.com> wrote:

>This is from an engineer friend    Engineers... Would rather design a cup
>and die of dehydration in the process than drink from the paper cup
>hanging next to the water jug...
>
>IndyDave
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Valdez [mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 1:06 PM
>To: Brent Stewart
>Cc: spkorb at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>
>Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level is
>measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after checking
>a few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the computer field,
>thinks this is ridiculous.  When he went to check the oil on his
>girlfriends BMW and couldn't find the dipstick, he said dad, where is the
>dipstick on this car? I told him about the sensors in the computer. He
>said that stuff fails and I told him I know...
>
>Dennis Valdez
>
>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso
>><detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
>>
>>  This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works.  Reads "dead
>>  center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
>>  "normal" range.  I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the temp
>>  gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
>>  On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com>
>>  wrote:
>>    The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a few
>>    years ago.A  It turns out people were calling in to the dealer quite
>>  a
>>    bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers were
>>    worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was in
>>  the
>>    red zone.
>>    Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
>>    Problem. Solved.
>>    sean
>>    On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
>>    <[1][1]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
>>      A  A There's another reason to add to the list.A  This is a very
>>      car-saavy
>>      A  A group of people.A  Most of those F-150s and Explorers will be
>>      sold to
>>      A  A people who don't look at the instruments, much less
>>understand
>>      them, or
>>      A  A even care.A  I'd be surprised if they're there for any reason
>>      beyond
>>      A  A norm and style.
>>      A  A Richard
>>      A  A Austin, TX
>>      A  A From: DeTomaso <[1][2][2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf
>>  of
>>      Larry - Ohio
>>      A  A Time <[2][3][3]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
>>      A  A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
>>      A  A To: 'Kirby Schrader' <[3][4][4]kirbyschrader at mac.com>,
>>  'Charles
>>      McCall'
>>      A  A <[4][5][5]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>>      A  A Cc: deTomaso List <[5][6][6]detomaso at poca.com>
>>      A  A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>>      A  A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
>>      A  A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and
>>      programming
>>      A  A code
>>      A  A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you
>>      then
>>      A  A eliminate
>>      A  A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
>>      unit... well
>>      A  A that
>>      A  A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
>>      person who
>>      A  A came up
>>      A  A with that one is a VP now.
>>      A  A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
>>      A  A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
>>      A  A -----Original Message-----
>>      A  A From: DeTomaso [[6]mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
>>      Behalf Of Kirby
>>      A  A Schrader
>>      A  A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
>>      A  A To: Charles McCall
>>      A  A Cc: Pantera list serve
>>      A  A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>>      A  A Not quite as stupid, but..
>>      A  A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil
>>pressure
>>      gauge in
>>      A  A the
>>      A  A instrument cluster.
>>      A  A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or at
>>      rpm.
>>      A  A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely an
>>      idiot
>>      A  A light in
>>      A  A the disguise of a gauge.
>>      A  A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have pressure.
>>      A  A FWIW,
>>      A  A Kirby
>>      A  A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
>>      <[7][8][8]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>>    A  A wrote:
>>    A  A  A  Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that I'd
>>    chalk it
>>    A  A up
>>    A  A  A  to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat reliable
>>    source.
>>    A  A  A  A
>>    A  A  A  Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that is
>>    quite
>>    A  A  A  unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
>>    illogical.
>>    A  A To
>>    A  A  A  know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the car
>>  is
>>    A  A  A  engineered properly. If everything goes according to plan,
>>    then your
>>    A  A  A  temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole
>>  idea
>>    of
>>    A  A  A  measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual matches
>>    the
>>    A  A  A  Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere. The
>>    A  A theoretical
>>    A  A  A  coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway is
>>    192F if
>>    A  A  A  that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
>>    factors,
>>    A  A where
>>    A  A  A  it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be
>>  roughly
>>    that.
>>    A  A  A  A
>>    A  A  A  If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting
>>  stuck,
>>    a leak
>>    A  A in
>>    A  A  A  your cooling system, something that the computer model
>>won't
>>    take
>>    A  A into
>>    A  A  A  account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical
>>  hasn't
>>    A  A changed,
>>    A  A  A  but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a
>>    gasket and
>>    A  A  A  you have no idea.
>>    A  A  A  A
>>    A  A  A  This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of
>>car
>>    A  A  A  manufacturing... A
>>    A  A  A  On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
>>      A  A <[1][8][9][9]cengles at cox.net>
>>    A  A  A  wrote:
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A Dear Forum,
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  A I was just reading
>>    the October
>>    A  A  A  A  Grassroots Motorsports
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A article about their project car a new Chevy Camaro
>>    that they
>>    A  A  A  A  were
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A modifying and testing on the track.
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  ".......While
>>  enjoying
>>    the track
>>    A  A outing,
>>    A  A  A  A  we confirmed
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
>>    Daytona:
>>    A  A  A  A  seemingly very
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A high engine oil temps.AA  After just a few laps,
>>  the
>>    oil temp
>>    A  A  A  A  indicated
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up to
>>    within a
>>    A  A  A  A  couple
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA  If
>>nothing
>>    else, this
>>    A  A  A  A  warranted
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A some talks with Chevy.
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  We had a
>>chat
>>    and exchanged some
>>    A  A  A  A  emails with one of
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A their powertrain engineers and learned some
>>    interesting
>>    A  A  A  A  stuff.AA  First
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
>>    actually
>>    A  A  A  A  measuring oil
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A temp per se.AA  The gauge actually reflects what a
>>    computer
>>    A  A  A  A  model
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A simulation estimates the oil temperature should be
>>    based on
>>    A  A  A  A  current
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A information.AA  It takes data parameters like
>>  ambient
>>    temp,
>>    A  A rpm,
>>    A  A  A  A  engine
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position and
>>    dozens of
>>    A  A  A  A  other data
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A points to build a very accurate simulation.
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  Amazing, yes.AA
>>    But the oil is
>>    A  A  A  A  literally 3 feet from
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A you.AA  It's right there.AA  Wouldn't it be easier
>>  to
>>    just
>>    A  A  A  A  measure the
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A temp?AA  Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly
>>    accurate and
>>    A  A  A  A  quicker to
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A react than an actual gauge under normal
>>    conditions.AA  And
>>    A  A  A  A  there's the
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A rub.AA  Under typical loads the model is
>>  exceptional,
>>    but when
>>    A  A  A  A  the
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
>>    programming
>>    A  A thanks
>>    A  A  A  A  to
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it
>>  may
>>    not be
>>    A  A  A  A  capable of
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A accurately predicting temps."
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  They then
>>discuss
>>    the loan of the
>>    A  A  A  A  Chevy old school
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A thermocouple to install and double check the
>>  accuracy
>>    of
>>    A  A  A  A  virtual oil
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
>>  measurement
>>    of the
>>    A  A  A  A  actual
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A temperature in real time.
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  What is wrong
>>  with
>>    modern car
>>    A  A  A  A  manufacturers?AA  A A
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A computer model simulation of the engine oil
>>    A  A temperature?AA  What
>>    A  A  A  A  could
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A ever go wrong with that?AA  A I am appalled and
>>    flabbergasted
>>    A  A by
>>    A  A  A  A  such
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  A things.AA  I am a Luddite.
>>    A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA
>>  AA
>>    AA  AA  A Confused,A
>>    A  A  A  A  Chuck Engles
>>    A  A  A  A  _______________________________________________
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>>      A  A  A  1. [11]mailto:[12][12]cengles at cox.net
>>      A  A  A  2. [12]mailto:[13][13]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>      A  A  A  3.
>>      [13][14][14]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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>>      A  A [18][19][19]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>      A  A 
>>[19][20][20]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>      A  A To manage your subscription (change email address,
>>  unsubscribe,
>>      etc.)
>>      A  A use the links above.
>>      References
>>      A  A 1. mailto:[21][21]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>      A  A 2. mailto:[22][22]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>>      A  A 3. mailto:[23][23]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>>      A  A 4. mailto:[24][24]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>>      A  A 5. mailto:[25][25]detomaso at poca.com
>>      A  A 6. mailto:[26][26]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>      A  A 7. mailto:[27][27]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>>      A  A 8. mailto:[28][28]cengles at cox.net
>>      A  A 9. mailto:[29][29]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>      A  10. [30][30]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>      A  11. mailto:[31][31]cengles at cox.net
>>      A  12. mailto:[32][32]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>      A  13. [33][33]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>      A  14. mailto:[34][34]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>      A  15. [35][35]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>      A  16. mailto:[36][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>      A  17. [37][37]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>      A  18. mailto:[38][38]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>      A  19. [39][39]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>      _______________________________________________
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>>    --
>>    Sean Korb [42][42]spkorb at spkorb.org [43][43]http://www.spkorb.org
>>    '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>>    #1382
>>    "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>>    "Computers are useless.A  They can only give you answers." -P.
>>  Picasso
>>  References
>>    1. mailto:[44]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>>    2. mailto:[45]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>    3. mailto:[46]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>>    4. mailto:[47]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>>    5. mailto:[48]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>>    6. mailto:[49]detomaso at poca.com
>>    7. mailto:[50]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>    8. mailto:[51]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>>    9. mailto:[52]cengles at cox.net
>>    10. mailto:[53]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>    11. [54]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>    12. mailto:[55]cengles at cox.net
>>    13. mailto:[56]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>    14. [57]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>    15. mailto:[58]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>    16. [59]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>    17. mailto:[60]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>    18. [61]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>    19. mailto:[62]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>    20. [63]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>    21. mailto:[64]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>    22. mailto:[65]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>>    23. mailto:[66]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>>    24. mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>>    25. mailto:[68]detomaso at poca.com
>>    26. mailto:[69]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>    27. mailto:[70]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>>    28. mailto:[71]cengles at cox.net
>>    29. mailto:[72]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>    30. [73]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>    31. mailto:[74]cengles at cox.net
>>    32. mailto:[75]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>    33. [76]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>    34. mailto:[77]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>    35. [78]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>    36. mailto:[79]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>    37. [80]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>    38. mailto:[81]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>    39. [82]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>    40. mailto:[83]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>    41. [84]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>    42. mailto:[85]spkorb at spkorb.org
>>    43. [86]http://www.spkorb.org/
>>  _______________________________________________
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>>
>> References
>>
>>  1. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>>  2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>  3. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>>  4. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
>>  5. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>>  6. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>>  7. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>  8. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>>  9. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>>  10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  12. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>>  13. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  14. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  15. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  16. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  19. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  20. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  21. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>  22. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>>  23. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
>>  24. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>>  25. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>>  26. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>  27. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>>  28. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>>  29. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  30. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  31. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>>  32. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  33. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  34. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  35. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  36. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  37. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  38. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  39. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  40. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  42. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
>>  43. http://www.spkorb.org/
>>  44. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>>  45. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>  46. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>>  47. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
>>  48. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>>  49. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>>  50. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>  51. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>>  52. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>>  53. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  54. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  55. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>>  56. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  57. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  58. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  59. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  60. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  61. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  62. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  63. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  64. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>  65. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>>  66. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
>>  67. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>>  68. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>>  69. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>  70. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>>  71. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>>  72. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  73. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  74. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>>  75. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  76. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  77. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  78. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  79. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  80. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  81. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  82. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  83. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  84. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>  85. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
>>  86. http://www.spkorb.org/
>>  87. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>  88. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> _______________________________________________
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-------------- next part --------------
   I worked on torpedo G&C for a long time for an autonomous weapon, and
   trying to make the right decision based on the available sonar data was
   very challenging.  You could look at the raw data and see what to do,
   but creating algorithms to do what is easy for a human, can be really
   difficult.  A simple hardware failure in a gyro or the circuit that
   processed gyro data could also make the torpedo do something really
   bad, like attack the sub that shot the torpedo.  There was suppose to
   be designed redundancy to make sure that could not happen, but it still
   did, and we had to add band aids on top of the original design to
   detect when a failure occurred.
   This makes me wonder how the driverless cars will work out.  The
   smarter you try to make software, the more likely there will be a
   glitch in the software and something very wrong will happen.  I worry
   about the automatic braking systems.
   I still am trying to figure out if Microsoft has a bunch of idiots
   working for them, or if they practice designed obsolescence to create a
   future market for replacement products.
   Ken
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
   To: Dave <dave at damardirect.com>; Dennis Valdez <sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com>;
   Brent Stewart <bjbstewart at yahoo.com>
   Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
   Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 7:57 PM
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
   It isnA^1t the engineerA^1s fault.  They design things.  ThatA^1s what
   they do.
   My 1993 Cobra had the same type of idiot gauges.  The oil pressure
   gauge
   slowly went to slightly higher than midway, and it stayed there.
   ThatA^1s
   what most people expect.
   If I recall correctly, they really were called idiot gauges.  They were
   idiot lights, that looked like a gauge, so you think it is a gauge, but
   the needle really only tells you that you have pressure.  It doesnA^1t
   tell
   you how much.
   The software simulating all of that is the next iteration of idiot
   gauges.
   The auto industry has no sense of direction.  Or maybe they have their
   target market pegged.  Idiot virtual gauges for idiot detached drivers.
   On 9/15/15, 10:44 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Dave"
   <[1]detomaso-bounces at poca.com on behalf of [2]dave at damardirect.com>
   wrote:
   >This is from an engineer friend    Engineers... Would rather design a
   cup
   >and die of dehydration in the process than drink from the paper cup
   >hanging next to the water jug...
   >
   >IndyDave
   >
   >-----Original Message-----
   >From: Dennis Valdez [mailto:[3]sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com]
   >Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 1:06 PM
   >To: Brent Stewart
   >Cc: [4]spkorb at gmail.com; [5]detomaso at poca.com
   >Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
   >
   >Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level is
   >measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after
   checking
   >a few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the computer field,
   >thinks this is ridiculous.  When he went to check the oil on his
   >girlfriends BMW and couldn't find the dipstick, he said dad, where is
   the
   >dipstick on this car? I told him about the sensors in the computer. He
   >said that stuff fails and I told him I know...
   >
   >Dennis Valdez
   >
   >> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso
   >><[6]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
   >>
   >>  This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works.  Reads "dead
   >>  center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
   >>  "normal" range.  I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the
   temp
   >>  gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
   >>  On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb
   <[7]spkorb at gmail.com>
   >>  wrote:
   >>    The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a
   few
   >>    years ago.A  It turns out people were calling in to the dealer
   quite
   >>  a
   >>    bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers
   were
   >>    worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was
   in
   >>  the
   >>    red zone.
   >>    Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
   >>    Problem. Solved.
   >>    sean
   >>    On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
   >>    <[1][1][8]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
   >>      A  A There's another reason to add to the list.A  This is a
   very
   >>      car-saavy
   >>      A  A group of people.A  Most of those F-150s and Explorers will
   be
   >>      sold to
   >>      A  A people who don't look at the instruments, much less
   >>understand
   >>      them, or
   >>      A  A even care.A  I'd be surprised if they're there for any
   reason
   >>      beyond
   >>      A  A norm and style.
   >>      A  A Richard
   >>      A  A Austin, TX
   >>      A  A From: DeTomaso <[1][2][2][9]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on
   behalf
   >>  of
   >>      Larry - Ohio
   >>      A  A Time <[2][3][3][10]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
   >>      A  A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
   >>      A  A To: 'Kirby Schrader' <[3][4][4][11]kirbyschrader at mac.com>,
   >>  'Charles
   >>      McCall'
   >>      A  A <[4][5][5][12]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
   >>      A  A Cc: deTomaso List <[5][6][6][13]detomaso at poca.com>
   >>      A  A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
   >>      A  A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat
   bastards.
   >>      A  A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design
   and
   >>      programming
   >>      A  A code
   >>      A  A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If
   you
   >>      then
   >>      A  A eliminate
   >>      A  A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
   >>      unit... well
   >>      A  A that
   >>      A  A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
   >>      person who
   >>      A  A came up
   >>      A  A with that one is a VP now.
   >>      A  A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
   >>      A  A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
   >>      A  A -----Original Message-----
   >>      A  A From: DeTomaso
   [[6]mailto:[7][7][14]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
   >>      Behalf Of Kirby
   >>      A  A Schrader
   >>      A  A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
   >>      A  A To: Charles McCall
   >>      A  A Cc: Pantera list serve
   >>      A  A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
   >>      A  A Not quite as stupid, but..
   >>      A  A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil
   >>pressure
   >>      gauge in
   >>      A  A the
   >>      A  A instrument cluster.
   >>      A  A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or
   at
   >>      rpm.
   >>      A  A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely
   an
   >>      idiot
   >>      A  A light in
   >>      A  A the disguise of a gauge.
   >>      A  A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have
   pressure.
   >>      A  A FWIW,
   >>      A  A Kirby
   >>      A  A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
   >>      <[7][8][8][15]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
   >>    A  A wrote:
   >>    A  A  A  Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that
   I'd
   >>    chalk it
   >>    A  A up
   >>    A  A  A  to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat
   reliable
   >>    source.
   >>    A  A  A  A
   >>    A  A  A  Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that
   is
   >>    quite
   >>    A  A  A  unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
   >>    illogical.
   >>    A  A To
   >>    A  A  A  know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the
   car
   >>  is
   >>    A  A  A  engineered properly. If everything goes according to
   plan,
   >>    then your
   >>    A  A  A  temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole
   >>  idea
   >>    of
   >>    A  A  A  measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual
   matches
   >>    the
   >>    A  A  A  Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere.
   The
   >>    A  A theoretical
   >>    A  A  A  coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway
   is
   >>    192F if
   >>    A  A  A  that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
   >>    factors,
   >>    A  A where
   >>    A  A  A  it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be
   >>  roughly
   >>    that.
   >>    A  A  A  A
   >>    A  A  A  If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting
   >>  stuck,
   >>    a leak
   >>    A  A in
   >>    A  A  A  your cooling system, something that the computer model
   >>won't
   >>    take
   >>    A  A into
   >>    A  A  A  account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical
   >>  hasn't
   >>    A  A changed,
   >>    A  A  A  but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow
   a
   >>    gasket and
   >>    A  A  A  you have no idea.
   >>    A  A  A  A
   >>    A  A  A  This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of
   >>car
   >>    A  A  A  manufacturing... A
   >>    A  A  A  On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
   >>      A  A <[1][8][9][9][16]cengles at cox.net>
   >>    A  A  A  wrote:
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A Dear Forum,
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  A I was just
   reading
   >>    the October
   >>    A  A  A  A  Grassroots Motorsports
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A article about their project car a new Chevy
   Camaro
   >>    that they
   >>    A  A  A  A  were
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A modifying and testing on the track.
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  ".......While
   >>  enjoying
   >>    the track
   >>    A  A outing,
   >>    A  A  A  A  we confirmed
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
   >>    Daytona:
   >>    A  A  A  A  seemingly very
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A high engine oil temps.AA  After just a few
   laps,
   >>  the
   >>    oil temp
   >>    A  A  A  A  indicated
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up
   to
   >>    within a
   >>    A  A  A  A  couple
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA  If
   >>nothing
   >>    else, this
   >>    A  A  A  A  warranted
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A some talks with Chevy.
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  We had a
   >>chat
   >>    and exchanged some
   >>    A  A  A  A  emails with one of
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A their powertrain engineers and learned some
   >>    interesting
   >>    A  A  A  A  stuff.AA  First
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
   >>    actually
   >>    A  A  A  A  measuring oil
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A temp per se.AA  The gauge actually reflects
   what a
   >>    computer
   >>    A  A  A  A  model
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A simulation estimates the oil temperature should
   be
   >>    based on
   >>    A  A  A  A  current
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A information.AA  It takes data parameters like
   >>  ambient
   >>    temp,
   >>    A  A rpm,
   >>    A  A  A  A  engine
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position
   and
   >>    dozens of
   >>    A  A  A  A  other data
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A points to build a very accurate simulation.
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  Amazing,
   yes.AA
   >>    But the oil is
   >>    A  A  A  A  literally 3 feet from
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A you.AA  It's right there.AA  Wouldn't it be
   easier
   >>  to
   >>    just
   >>    A  A  A  A  measure the
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A temp?AA  Well, Chevy says the modeling is
   highly
   >>    accurate and
   >>    A  A  A  A  quicker to
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A react than an actual gauge under normal
   >>    conditions.AA  And
   >>    A  A  A  A  there's the
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A rub.AA  Under typical loads the model is
   >>  exceptional,
   >>    but when
   >>    A  A  A  A  the
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
   >>    programming
   >>    A  A thanks
   >>    A  A  A  A  to
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A strained track action, even Chevy admits that
   it
   >>  may
   >>    not be
   >>    A  A  A  A  capable of
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A accurately predicting temps."
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  They then
   >>discuss
   >>    the loan of the
   >>    A  A  A  A  Chevy old school
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A thermocouple to install and double check the
   >>  accuracy
   >>    of
   >>    A  A  A  A  virtual oil
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
   >>  measurement
   >>    of the
   >>    A  A  A  A  actual
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A temperature in real time.
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  What is wrong
   >>  with
   >>    modern car
   >>    A  A  A  A  manufacturers?AA  A A
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A computer model simulation of the engine oil
   >>    A  A temperature?AA  What
   >>    A  A  A  A  could
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A ever go wrong with that?AA  A I am appalled and
   >>    flabbergasted
   >>    A  A by
   >>    A  A  A  A  such
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  A things.AA  I am a Luddite.
   >>    A  A  A  A  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA  AA
   AA
   >>  AA
   >>    AA  AA  A Confused,A
   >>    A  A  A  A  Chuck Engles
   >>    A  A  A  A  _______________________________________________
   >>    A  A  A  A  Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
   >>    A  A  A  A  Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >>    A  A  A  A  DeTomaso mailing list
   >>      A  A  A  A  [2][9][10][10][17]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>      A  A  A  A
   >>
   [3][10][11][11][18]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>      A  A  A  A  To manage your subscription (change email address,
   >>      unsubscribe,
   >>      A  A  A  A  etc.) use the links above.
   >>      A  A References
   >>      A  A  A  1. [11]mailto:[12][12][19]cengles at cox.net
   >>      A  A  A  2. [12]mailto:[13][13][20]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>      A  A  A  3.
   >>
   [13][14][14][21]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>      A  A _______________________________________________
   >>      A  A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
   >>      A  A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >>      A  A DeTomaso mailing list
   >>      A  A [14][15][15][22]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>      A  A
   >>[15][16][16][23]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>      A  A To manage your subscription (change email address,
   >>  unsubscribe,
   >>      etc.)
   >>      A  A use
   >>      A  A the links above.
   >>      A  A _______________________________________________
   >>      A  A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
   >>      A  A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >>      A  A DeTomaso mailing list
   >>      A  A [16][17][17][24]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>      A  A
   >>[17][18][18][25]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>      A  A To manage your subscription (change email address,
   >>  unsubscribe,
   >>      etc.)
   >>      A  A use
   >>      A  A the links above.
   >>      A  A _______________________________________________
   >>      A  A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
   >>      A  A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >>      A  A DeTomaso mailing list
   >>      A  A [18][19][19][26]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>      A  A
   >>[19][20][20][27]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>      A  A To manage your subscription (change email address,
   >>  unsubscribe,
   >>      etc.)
   >>      A  A use the links above.
   >>      References
   >>      A  A 1. mailto:[21][21][28]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   >>      A  A 2. mailto:[22][22][29]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
   >>      A  A 3. mailto:[23][23][30]kirbyschrader at mac.com
   >>      A  A 4. mailto:[24][24][31]charlesmccall at gmail.com
   >>      A  A 5. mailto:[25][25][32]detomaso at poca.com
   >>      A  A 6. mailto:[26][26][33]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   >>      A  A 7. mailto:[27][27][34]charlesmccall at gmail.com
   >>      A  A 8. mailto:[28][28][35]cengles at cox.net
   >>      A  A 9. mailto:[29][29][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>      A  10.
   [30][30][37]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>      A  11. mailto:[31][31][38]cengles at cox.net
   >>      A  12. mailto:[32][32][39]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>      A  13.
   [33][33][40]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>      A  14. mailto:[34][34][41]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>      A  15.
   [35][35][42]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>      A  16. mailto:[36][36][43]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>      A  17.
   [37][37][44]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>      A  18. mailto:[38][38][45]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>      A  19.
   [39][39][46]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>      _______________________________________________
   >>      Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
   >>      Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >>      DeTomaso mailing list
   >>      [40][40][47]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>      [41][41][48]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>      To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   >>      etc.) use the links above.
   >>    --
   >>    Sean Korb [42][42][49]spkorb at spkorb.org
   [43][43][50]http://www.spkorb.org
   >>    '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71
   Pantera
   >>    #1382
   >>    "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
   >>    "Computers are useless.A  They can only give you answers." -P.
   >>  Picasso
   >>  References
   >>    1. mailto:[44][51]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
   >>    2. mailto:[45][52]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   >>    3. mailto:[46][53]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
   >>    4. mailto:[47][54]kirbyschrader at mac.com
   >>    5. mailto:[48][55]charlesmccall at gmail.com
   >>    6. mailto:[49][56]detomaso at poca.com
   >>    7. mailto:[50][57]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   >>    8. mailto:[51][58]charlesmccall at gmail.com
   >>    9. mailto:[52][59]cengles at cox.net
   >>    10. mailto:[53][60]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>    11. [54][61]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>    12. mailto:[55][62]cengles at cox.net
   >>    13. mailto:[56][63]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>    14. [57][64]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>    15. mailto:[58][65]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>    16. [59][66]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>    17. mailto:[60][67]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>    18. [61][68]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>    19. mailto:[62][69]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>    20. [63][70]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>    21. mailto:[64][71]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   >>    22. mailto:[65][72]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
   >>    23. mailto:[66][73]kirbyschrader at mac.com
   >>    24. mailto:[67][74]charlesmccall at gmail.com
   >>    25. mailto:[68][75]detomaso at poca.com
   >>    26. mailto:[69][76]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   >>    27. mailto:[70][77]charlesmccall at gmail.com
   >>    28. mailto:[71][78]cengles at cox.net
   >>    29. mailto:[72][79]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>    30. [73][80]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>    31. mailto:[74][81]cengles at cox.net
   >>    32. mailto:[75][82]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>    33. [76][83]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>    34. mailto:[77][84]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>    35. [78][85]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>    36. mailto:[79][86]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>    37. [80][87]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>    38. mailto:[81][88]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>    39. [82][89]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>    40. mailto:[83][90]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>    41. [84][91]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>    42. mailto:[85][92]spkorb at spkorb.org
   >>    43. [86][93]http://www.spkorb.org/
   >>  _______________________________________________
   >>  Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
   >>  Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >>  DeTomaso mailing list
   >>  [87][94]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  [88][95]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   etc.)
   >>  use the links above.
   >>
   >> References
   >>
   >>  1. mailto:[96]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
   >>  2. mailto:[97]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   >>  3. mailto:[98]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
   >>  4. mailto:[99]kirbyschrader at mac.com
   >>  5. mailto:[100]charlesmccall at gmail.com
   >>  6. mailto:[101]detomaso at poca.com
   >>  7. mailto:[102]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   >>  8. mailto:[103]charlesmccall at gmail.com
   >>  9. mailto:[104]cengles at cox.net
   >>  10. mailto:[105]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  11. [106]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  12. mailto:[107]cengles at cox.net
   >>  13. mailto:[108]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  14. [109]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  15. mailto:[110]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  16. [111]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  17. mailto:[112]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  18. [113]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  19. mailto:[114]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  20. [115]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  21. mailto:[116]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   >>  22. mailto:[117]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
   >>  23. mailto:[118]kirbyschrader at mac.com
   >>  24. mailto:[119]charlesmccall at gmail.com
   >>  25. mailto:[120]detomaso at poca.com
   >>  26. mailto:[121]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   >>  27. mailto:[122]charlesmccall at gmail.com
   >>  28. mailto:[123]cengles at cox.net
   >>  29. mailto:[124]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  30. [125]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  31. mailto:[126]cengles at cox.net
   >>  32. mailto:[127]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  33. [128]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  34. mailto:[129]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  35. [130]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  36. mailto:[131]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  37. [132]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  38. mailto:[133]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  39. [134]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  40. mailto:[135]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  41. [136]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  42. mailto:[137]spkorb at spkorb.org
   >>  43. [138]http://www.spkorb.org/
   >>  44. mailto:[139]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
   >>  45. mailto:[140]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   >>  46. mailto:[141]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
   >>  47. mailto:[142]kirbyschrader at mac.com
   >>  48. mailto:[143]charlesmccall at gmail.com
   >>  49. mailto:[144]detomaso at poca.com
   >>  50. mailto:[145]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   >>  51. mailto:[146]charlesmccall at gmail.com
   >>  52. mailto:[147]cengles at cox.net
   >>  53. mailto:[148]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  54. [149]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  55. mailto:[150]cengles at cox.net
   >>  56. mailto:[151]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  57. [152]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  58. mailto:[153]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  59. [154]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  60. mailto:[155]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  61. [156]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  62. mailto:[157]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  63. [158]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  64. mailto:[159]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   >>  65. mailto:[160]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
   >>  66. mailto:[161]kirbyschrader at mac.com
   >>  67. mailto:[162]charlesmccall at gmail.com
   >>  68. mailto:[163]detomaso at poca.com
   >>  69. mailto:[164]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   >>  70. mailto:[165]charlesmccall at gmail.com
   >>  71. mailto:[166]cengles at cox.net
   >>  72. mailto:[167]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  73. [168]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  74. mailto:[169]cengles at cox.net
   >>  75. mailto:[170]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  76. [171]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  77. mailto:[172]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  78. [173]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  79. mailto:[174]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  80. [175]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  81. mailto:[176]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  82. [177]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  83. mailto:[178]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  84. [179]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>  85. mailto:[180]spkorb at spkorb.org
   >>  86. [181]http://www.spkorb.org/
   >>  87. mailto:[182]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >>  88. [183]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >> _______________________________________________
   >>
   >> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
   >> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
   >> [184]DeTomaso at poca.com
   [185]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >>
   >> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   etc.)
   >>use the links above.
   >
   >
   >
   >_______________________________________________
   >
   >Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
   >Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   >DeTomaso mailing list
   >[186]DeTomaso at poca.com
   >[187]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   >
   >To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use
   >the links above.
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [188]DeTomaso at poca.com
   [189]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.

References

   1. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
   2. mailto:dave at damardirect.com
   3. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
   4. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
   5. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
   6. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
   7. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
   8. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
   9. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  10. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
  11. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
  12. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  13. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
  14. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  15. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  16. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  19. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  20. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  21. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  22. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  23. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  24. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  25. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  26. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  27. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  28. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  29. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
  30. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
  31. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  32. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
  33. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  34. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  35. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  36. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  37. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  38. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  39. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  40. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  41. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  42. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  43. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  44. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  45. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  46. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  47. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  48. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  49. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
  50. http://www.spkorb.org/
  51. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
  52. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  53. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
  54. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
  55. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  56. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
  57. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  58. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  59. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  60. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  61. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  62. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  63. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  64. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  65. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  66. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  67. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  68. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  69. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  70. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  71. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  72. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
  73. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
  74. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  75. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
  76. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  77. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  78. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  79. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  80. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  81. mailto:cengles at cox.net
  82. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  83. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  84. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  85. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  86. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  87. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  88. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  89. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  90. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  91. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  92. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
  93. http://www.spkorb.org/
  94. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  95. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  96. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
  97. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
  98. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
  99. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
 100. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 101. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
 102. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 103. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 104. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 105. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 106. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 107. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 108. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 109. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 110. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 111. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 112. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 113. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 114. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 115. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 116. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 117. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
 118. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
 119. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 120. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
 121. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 122. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 123. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 124. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 125. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 126. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 127. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 128. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 129. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 130. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 131. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 132. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 133. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 134. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 135. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 136. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 137. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
 138. http://www.spkorb.org/
 139. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
 140. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 141. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
 142. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
 143. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 144. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
 145. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 146. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 147. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 148. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 149. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 150. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 151. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 152. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 153. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 154. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 155. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 156. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 157. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 158. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 159. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 160. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
 161. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
 162. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 163. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
 164. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
 165. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
 166. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 167. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 168. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 169. mailto:cengles at cox.net
 170. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 171. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 172. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 173. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 174. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 175. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 176. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 177. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 178. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 179. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 180. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
 181. http://www.spkorb.org/
 182. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 183. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 184. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 185. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 186. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 187. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
 188. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
 189. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com


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