[DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
michael frazier
red3644 at hotmail.com
Wed Sep 16 10:06:41 EDT 2015
All this reminds me of the Pantera water temp issues early on. If people had "read" the gauge they would have known the temp was OK. Ford used a resistor and then a new gauge face to solve the issue.
People like to see needles in the middle of the range... Even Pantera owners.
Michael
> From: lplugw at hotmail.com
> To: asajay at asajay.com; detomaso at poca.com
> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:14:16 +0000
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>
> ... until something goes wrong that the predictive software can't
> account for and the whole thing pukes and you end up with a smokin' heap
> of aluminum attached to engine mounts.
>
> Probably a week or so after it goes off warranty...
>
> ________________________________________
> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf of Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 11:51 PM
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>
> It's all part of the dumbing down of the consumer. It's like Microsoft
> Windows 8 (or 10 for that matter), they think they know how it all
> should be done and you don't need to worry about the details.
>
> So in one of these dumbed down cars that only have idiot gauges, the
> basic user feels like everything is good. And in the case of the oil
> temperature thing mentioned earlier, it's all good...
>
> ... until something goes wrong that the predictive software can't
> account for and the whole thing pukes and you end up with a smokin' heap
> of aluminum attached to engine mounts.
>
> Well... at least the gauges "look" really cool.
> Asa Jay
>
> Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> & Shelley Marie
> Spokane, WA
> ******************************
> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
>
>
> On 9/15/2015 7:57 PM, Will Kooiman wrote:
> > It isn¹t the engineer¹s fault. They design things. That¹s what they do.
> >
> > My 1993 Cobra had the same type of idiot gauges. The oil pressure gauge
> > slowly went to slightly higher than midway, and it stayed there. That¹s
> >
> > what most people expect.
> >
> > If I recall correctly, they really were called idiot gauges. They were
> > idiot lights, that looked like a gauge, so you think it is a gauge, but
> > the needle really only tells you that you have pressure. It doesn¹t tell
> > you how much.
> >
> > The software simulating all of that is the next iteration of idiot gauges.
> >
> >
> > The auto industry has no sense of direction. Or maybe they have their
> > target market pegged. Idiot virtual gauges for idiot detached drivers.
> >
> >
> > On 9/15/15, 10:44 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Dave"
> > <detomaso-bounces at poca.com on behalf of dave at damardirect.com> wrote:
> >
> >> This is from an engineer friend Engineers... Would rather design a cup
> >> and die of dehydration in the process than drink from the paper cup
> >> hanging next to the water jug...
> >>
> >> IndyDave
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Dennis Valdez [mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 1:06 PM
> >> To: Brent Stewart
> >> Cc: spkorb at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
> >>
> >> Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level is
> >> measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after checking
> >> a few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the computer field,
> >> thinks this is ridiculous. When he went to check the oil on his
> >> girlfriends BMW and couldn't find the dipstick, he said dad, where is the
> >> dipstick on this car? I told him about the sensors in the computer. He
> >> said that stuff fails and I told him I know...
> >>
> >> Dennis Valdez
> >>
> >>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso
> >>> <detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works. Reads "dead
> >>> center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
> >>> "normal" range. I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the temp
> >>> gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
> >>> On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb<spkorb at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a few
> >>> years ago.A It turns out people were calling in to the dealer quite
> >>> a
> >>> bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers were
> >>> worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was in
> >>> the
> >>> red zone.
> >>> Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
> >>> Problem. Solved.
> >>> sean
> >>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
> >>> <[1][1]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
> >>> A A There's another reason to add to the list.A This is a very
> >>> car-saavy
> >>> A A group of people.A Most of those F-150s and Explorers will be
> >>> sold to
> >>> A A people who don't look at the instruments, much less
> >>> understand
> >>> them, or
> >>> A A even care.A I'd be surprised if they're there for any reason
> >>> beyond
> >>> A A norm and style.
> >>> A A Richard
> >>> A A Austin, TX
> >>> A A From: DeTomaso<[1][2][2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf
> >>> of
> >>> Larry - Ohio
> >>> A A Time<[2][3][3]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
> >>> A A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
> >>> A A To: 'Kirby Schrader'<[3][4][4]kirbyschrader at mac.com>,
> >>> 'Charles
> >>> McCall'
> >>> A A<[4][5][5]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> >>> A A Cc: deTomaso List<[5][6][6]detomaso at poca.com>
> >>> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
> >>> A A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
> >>> A A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and
> >>> programming
> >>> A A code
> >>> A A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you
> >>> then
> >>> A A eliminate
> >>> A A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
> >>> unit... well
> >>> A A that
> >>> A A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
> >>> person who
> >>> A A came up
> >>> A A with that one is a VP now.
> >>> A A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
> >>> A A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
> >>> A A -----Original Message-----
> >>> A A From: DeTomaso [[6]mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
> >>> Behalf Of Kirby
> >>> A A Schrader
> >>> A A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
> >>> A A To: Charles McCall
> >>> A A Cc: Pantera list serve
> >>> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
> >>> A A Not quite as stupid, but..
> >>> A A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil
> >>> pressure
> >>> gauge in
> >>> A A the
> >>> A A instrument cluster.
> >>> A A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or at
> >>> rpm.
> >>> A A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely an
> >>> idiot
> >>> A A light in
> >>> A A the disguise of a gauge.
> >>> A A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have pressure.
> >>> A A FWIW,
> >>> A A Kirby
> >>> A A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
> >>> <[7][8][8]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> >>> A A wrote:
> >>> A A A Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that I'd
> >>> chalk it
> >>> A A up
> >>> A A A to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat reliable
> >>> source.
> >>> A A A A
> >>> A A A Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that is
> >>> quite
> >>> A A A unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
> >>> illogical.
> >>> A A To
> >>> A A A know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the car
> >>> is
> >>> A A A engineered properly. If everything goes according to plan,
> >>> then your
> >>> A A A temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole
> >>> idea
> >>> of
> >>> A A A measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual matches
> >>> the
> >>> A A A Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere. The
> >>> A A theoretical
> >>> A A A coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway is
> >>> 192F if
> >>> A A A that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
> >>> factors,
> >>> A A where
> >>> A A A it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be
> >>> roughly
> >>> that.
> >>> A A A A
> >>> A A A If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting
> >>> stuck,
> >>> a leak
> >>> A A in
> >>> A A A your cooling system, something that the computer model
> >>> won't
> >>> take
> >>> A A into
> >>> A A A account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical
> >>> hasn't
> >>> A A changed,
> >>> A A A but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a
> >>> gasket and
> >>> A A A you have no idea.
> >>> A A A A
> >>> A A A This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of
> >>> car
> >>> A A A manufacturing... A
> >>> A A A On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
> >>> A A<[1][8][9][9]cengles at cox.net>
> >>> A A A wrote:
> >>> A A A A AA A Dear Forum,
> >>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A I was just reading
> >>> the October
> >>> A A A A Grassroots Motorsports
> >>> A A A A AA A article about their project car a new Chevy Camaro
> >>> that they
> >>> A A A A were
> >>> A A A A AA A modifying and testing on the track.
> >>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA ".......While
> >>> enjoying
> >>> the track
> >>> A A outing,
> >>> A A A A we confirmed
> >>> A A A A AA A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
> >>> Daytona:
> >>> A A A A seemingly very
> >>> A A A A AA A high engine oil temps.AA After just a few laps,
> >>> the
> >>> oil temp
> >>> A A A A indicated
> >>> A A A A AA A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up to
> >>> within a
> >>> A A A A couple
> >>> A A A A AA A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA If
> >>> nothing
> >>> else, this
> >>> A A A A warranted
> >>> A A A A AA A some talks with Chevy.
> >>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA We had a
> >>> chat
> >>> and exchanged some
> >>> A A A A emails with one of
> >>> A A A A AA A their powertrain engineers and learned some
> >>> interesting
> >>> A A A A stuff.AA First
> >>> A A A A AA A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
> >>> actually
> >>> A A A A measuring oil
> >>> A A A A AA A temp per se.AA The gauge actually reflects what a
> >>> computer
> >>> A A A A model
> >>> A A A A AA A simulation estimates the oil temperature should be
> >>> based on
> >>> A A A A current
> >>> A A A A AA A information.AA It takes data parameters like
> >>> ambient
> >>> temp,
> >>> A A rpm,
> >>> A A A A engine
> >>> A A A A AA A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position and
> >>> dozens of
> >>> A A A A other data
> >>> A A A A AA A points to build a very accurate simulation.
> >>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA Amazing, yes.AA
> >>> But the oil is
> >>> A A A A literally 3 feet from
> >>> A A A A AA A you.AA It's right there.AA Wouldn't it be easier
> >>> to
> >>> just
> >>> A A A A measure the
> >>> A A A A AA A temp?AA Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly
> >>> accurate and
> >>> A A A A quicker to
> >>> A A A A AA A react than an actual gauge under normal
> >>> conditions.AA And
> >>> A A A A there's the
> >>> A A A A AA A rub.AA Under typical loads the model is
> >>> exceptional,
> >>> but when
> >>> A A A A the
> >>> A A A A AA A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
> >>> programming
> >>> A A thanks
> >>> A A A A to
> >>> A A A A AA A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it
> >>> may
> >>> not be
> >>> A A A A capable of
> >>> A A A A AA A accurately predicting temps."
> >>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA They then
> >>> discuss
> >>> the loan of the
> >>> A A A A Chevy old school
> >>> A A A A AA A thermocouple to install and double check the
> >>> accuracy
> >>> of
> >>> A A A A virtual oil
> >>> A A A A AA A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
> >>> measurement
> >>> of the
> >>> A A A A actual
> >>> A A A A AA A temperature in real time.
> >>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA What is wrong
> >>> with
> >>> modern car
> >>> A A A A manufacturers?AA A A
> >>> A A A A AA A computer model simulation of the engine oil
> >>> A A temperature?AA What
> >>> A A A A could
> >>> A A A A AA A ever go wrong with that?AA A I am appalled and
> >>> flabbergasted
> >>> A A by
> >>> A A A A such
> >>> A A A A AA A things.AA I am a Luddite.
> >>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA
> >>> AA
> >>> AA AA A Confused,A
> >>> A A A A Chuck Engles
> >>> A A A A _______________________________________________
> >>> A A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
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> >>> A A A A DeTomaso mailing list
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> >>> unsubscribe,
> >>> A A A A etc.) use the links above.
> >>> A A References
> >>> A A A 1. [11]mailto:[12][12]cengles at cox.net
> >>> A A A 2. [12]mailto:[13][13]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A A A 3.
> >>> [13][14][14]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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> >>> A A [18][19][19]DeTomaso at poca.com
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> >>> A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
> >>> unsubscribe,
> >>> etc.)
> >>> A A use the links above.
> >>> References
> >>> A A 1. mailto:[21][21]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> A A 2. mailto:[22][22]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >>> A A 3. mailto:[23][23]kirbyschrader at mac.com
> >>> A A 4. mailto:[24][24]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> A A 5. mailto:[25][25]detomaso at poca.com
> >>> A A 6. mailto:[26][26]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> A A 7. mailto:[27][27]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> A A 8. mailto:[28][28]cengles at cox.net
> >>> A A 9. mailto:[29][29]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A 10. [30][30]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> A 11. mailto:[31][31]cengles at cox.net
> >>> A 12. mailto:[32][32]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A 13. [33][33]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> A 14. mailto:[34][34]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A 15. [35][35]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> A 16. mailto:[36][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A 17. [37][37]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> A 18. mailto:[38][38]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A 19. [39][39]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> [40][40]DeTomaso at poca.com
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> >>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> >>> etc.) use the links above.
> >>> --
> >>> Sean Korb [42][42]spkorb at spkorb.org [43][43]http://www.spkorb.org
> >>> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
> >>> #1382
> >>> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
> >>> "Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
> >>> Picasso
> >>> References
> >>> 1. mailto:[44]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
> >>> 2. mailto:[45]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 3. mailto:[46]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >>> 4. mailto:[47]kirbyschrader at mac.com
> >>> 5. mailto:[48]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 6. mailto:[49]detomaso at poca.com
> >>> 7. mailto:[50]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 8. mailto:[51]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 9. mailto:[52]cengles at cox.net
> >>> 10. mailto:[53]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 11. [54]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 12. mailto:[55]cengles at cox.net
> >>> 13. mailto:[56]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 14. [57]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 15. mailto:[58]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 16. [59]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 17. mailto:[60]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 18. [61]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 19. mailto:[62]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 20. [63]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 21. mailto:[64]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 22. mailto:[65]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >>> 23. mailto:[66]kirbyschrader at mac.com
> >>> 24. mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 25. mailto:[68]detomaso at poca.com
> >>> 26. mailto:[69]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 27. mailto:[70]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 28. mailto:[71]cengles at cox.net
> >>> 29. mailto:[72]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 30. [73]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 31. mailto:[74]cengles at cox.net
> >>> 32. mailto:[75]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 33. [76]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 34. mailto:[77]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 35. [78]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 36. mailto:[79]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 37. [80]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 38. mailto:[81]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 39. [82]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 40. mailto:[83]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 41. [84]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 42. mailto:[85]spkorb at spkorb.org
> >>> 43. [86]http://www.spkorb.org/
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> [87]DeTomaso at poca.com
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> >>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> >>> use the links above.
> >>>
> >>> References
> >>>
> >>> 1. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
> >>> 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 3. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >>> 4. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
> >>> 5. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 6. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> >>> 7. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 8. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 9. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 12. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 13. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 14. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 15. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 16. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 19. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 20. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 21. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 22. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >>> 23. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
> >>> 24. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 25. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> >>> 26. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 27. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 28. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 29. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 30. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 31. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 32. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 33. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 34. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 35. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 36. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 37. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 38. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 39. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 40. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 42. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
> >>> 43. http://www.spkorb.org/
> >>> 44. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
> >>> 45. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 46. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >>> 47. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
> >>> 48. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 49. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> >>> 50. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 51. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 52. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 53. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 54. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 55. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 56. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 57. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 58. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 59. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 60. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 61. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 62. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 63. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 64. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 65. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >>> 66. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
> >>> 67. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 68. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> >>> 69. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 70. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 71. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 72. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 73. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 74. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 75. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 76. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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> >>> 78. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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> >>> 80. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 81. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 82. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 83. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 84. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 85. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
> >>> 86. http://www.spkorb.org/
> >>> 87. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 88. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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-------------- next part --------------
All this reminds me of the Pantera water temp issues early on. If
people had "read" the gauge they would have known the temp was
OK. Ford used a resistor and then a new gauge face to solve the issue.
People like to see needles in the middle of the range... Even Pantera
owners.
Michael
> From: lplugw at hotmail.com
> To: asajay at asajay.com; detomaso at poca.com
> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:14:16 +0000
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>
> ... until something goes wrong that the predictive software can't
> account for and the whole thing pukes and you end up with a smokin'
heap
> of aluminum attached to engine mounts.
>
> Probably a week or so after it goes off warranty...
>
> ________________________________________
> From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf of Asa Jay
Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 11:51 PM
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
>
> It's all part of the dumbing down of the consumer. It's like
Microsoft
> Windows 8 (or 10 for that matter), they think they know how it all
> should be done and you don't need to worry about the details.
>
> So in one of these dumbed down cars that only have idiot gauges, the
> basic user feels like everything is good. And in the case of the oil
> temperature thing mentioned earlier, it's all good...
>
> ... until something goes wrong that the predictive software can't
> account for and the whole thing pukes and you end up with a smokin'
heap
> of aluminum attached to engine mounts.
>
> Well... at least the gauges "look" really cool.
> Asa Jay
>
> Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> & Shelley Marie
> Spokane, WA
> ******************************
> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
>
>
> On 9/15/2015 7:57 PM, Will Kooiman wrote:
> > It isn^1t the engineer^1s fault. They design things. That^1s what
they do.
> >
> > My 1993 Cobra had the same type of idiot gauges. The oil pressure
gauge
> > slowly went to slightly higher than midway, and it stayed there.
That^1s
> >
> > what most people expect.
> >
> > If I recall correctly, they really were called idiot gauges. They
were
> > idiot lights, that looked like a gauge, so you think it is a gauge,
but
> > the needle really only tells you that you have pressure. It
doesn^1t tell
> > you how much.
> >
> > The software simulating all of that is the next iteration of idiot
gauges.
> >
> >
> > The auto industry has no sense of direction. Or maybe they have
their
> > target market pegged. Idiot virtual gauges for idiot detached
drivers.
> >
> >
> > On 9/15/15, 10:44 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Dave"
> > <detomaso-bounces at poca.com on behalf of dave at damardirect.com>
wrote:
> >
> >> This is from an engineer friend Engineers... Would rather design a
cup
> >> and die of dehydration in the process than drink from the paper
cup
> >> hanging next to the water jug...
> >>
> >> IndyDave
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Dennis Valdez [mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 1:06 PM
> >> To: Brent Stewart
> >> Cc: spkorb at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
> >>
> >> Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level
is
> >> measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after
checking
> >> a few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the computer
field,
> >> thinks this is ridiculous. When he went to check the oil on his
> >> girlfriends BMW and couldn't find the dipstick, he said dad, where
is the
> >> dipstick on this car? I told him about the sensors in the
computer. He
> >> said that stuff fails and I told him I know...
> >>
> >> Dennis Valdez
> >>
> >>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso
> >>> <detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works. Reads "dead
> >>> center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
> >>> "normal" range. I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the
temp
> >>> gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
> >>> On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean
Korb<spkorb at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a
few
> >>> years ago.A It turns out people were calling in to the dealer
quite
> >>> a
> >>> bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers
were
> >>> worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was
in
> >>> the
> >>> red zone.
> >>> Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
> >>> Problem. Solved.
> >>> sean
> >>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
> >>> <[1][1]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
> >>> A A There's another reason to add to the list.A This is a very
> >>> car-saavy
> >>> A A group of people.A Most of those F-150s and Explorers will be
> >>> sold to
> >>> A A people who don't look at the instruments, much less
> >>> understand
> >>> them, or
> >>> A A even care.A I'd be surprised if they're there for any reason
> >>> beyond
> >>> A A norm and style.
> >>> A A Richard
> >>> A A Austin, TX
> >>> A A From: DeTomaso<[1][2][2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf
> >>> of
> >>> Larry - Ohio
> >>> A A Time<[2][3][3]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
> >>> A A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
> >>> A A To: 'Kirby Schrader'<[3][4][4]kirbyschrader at mac.com>,
> >>> 'Charles
> >>> McCall'
> >>> A A<[4][5][5]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> >>> A A Cc: deTomaso List<[5][6][6]detomaso at poca.com>
> >>> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
> >>> A A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
> >>> A A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and
> >>> programming
> >>> A A code
> >>> A A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you
> >>> then
> >>> A A eliminate
> >>> A A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
> >>> unit... well
> >>> A A that
> >>> A A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
> >>> person who
> >>> A A came up
> >>> A A with that one is a VP now.
> >>> A A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
> >>> A A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
> >>> A A -----Original Message-----
> >>> A A From: DeTomaso [[6]mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
> >>> Behalf Of Kirby
> >>> A A Schrader
> >>> A A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
> >>> A A To: Charles McCall
> >>> A A Cc: Pantera list serve
> >>> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
> >>> A A Not quite as stupid, but..
> >>> A A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil
> >>> pressure
> >>> gauge in
> >>> A A the
> >>> A A instrument cluster.
> >>> A A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or at
> >>> rpm.
> >>> A A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely an
> >>> idiot
> >>> A A light in
> >>> A A the disguise of a gauge.
> >>> A A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have pressure.
> >>> A A FWIW,
> >>> A A Kirby
> >>> A A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
> >>> <[7][8][8]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> >>> A A wrote:
> >>> A A A Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that I'd
> >>> chalk it
> >>> A A up
> >>> A A A to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat reliable
> >>> source.
> >>> A A A A
> >>> A A A Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that is
> >>> quite
> >>> A A A unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
> >>> illogical.
> >>> A A To
> >>> A A A know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the car
> >>> is
> >>> A A A engineered properly. If everything goes according to plan,
> >>> then your
> >>> A A A temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole
> >>> idea
> >>> of
> >>> A A A measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual matches
> >>> the
> >>> A A A Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere. The
> >>> A A theoretical
> >>> A A A coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway is
> >>> 192F if
> >>> A A A that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
> >>> factors,
> >>> A A where
> >>> A A A it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be
> >>> roughly
> >>> that.
> >>> A A A A
> >>> A A A If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting
> >>> stuck,
> >>> a leak
> >>> A A in
> >>> A A A your cooling system, something that the computer model
> >>> won't
> >>> take
> >>> A A into
> >>> A A A account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical
> >>> hasn't
> >>> A A changed,
> >>> A A A but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a
> >>> gasket and
> >>> A A A you have no idea.
> >>> A A A A
> >>> A A A This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of
> >>> car
> >>> A A A manufacturing... A
> >>> A A A On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
> >>> A A<[1][8][9][9]cengles at cox.net>
> >>> A A A wrote:
> >>> A A A A AA A Dear Forum,
> >>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A I was just reading
> >>> the October
> >>> A A A A Grassroots Motorsports
> >>> A A A A AA A article about their project car a new Chevy Camaro
> >>> that they
> >>> A A A A were
> >>> A A A A AA A modifying and testing on the track.
> >>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA ".......While
> >>> enjoying
> >>> the track
> >>> A A outing,
> >>> A A A A we confirmed
> >>> A A A A AA A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
> >>> Daytona:
> >>> A A A A seemingly very
> >>> A A A A AA A high engine oil temps.AA After just a few laps,
> >>> the
> >>> oil temp
> >>> A A A A indicated
> >>> A A A A AA A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up to
> >>> within a
> >>> A A A A couple
> >>> A A A A AA A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA If
> >>> nothing
> >>> else, this
> >>> A A A A warranted
> >>> A A A A AA A some talks with Chevy.
> >>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA We had a
> >>> chat
> >>> and exchanged some
> >>> A A A A emails with one of
> >>> A A A A AA A their powertrain engineers and learned some
> >>> interesting
> >>> A A A A stuff.AA First
> >>> A A A A AA A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
> >>> actually
> >>> A A A A measuring oil
> >>> A A A A AA A temp per se.AA The gauge actually reflects what a
> >>> computer
> >>> A A A A model
> >>> A A A A AA A simulation estimates the oil temperature should be
> >>> based on
> >>> A A A A current
> >>> A A A A AA A information.AA It takes data parameters like
> >>> ambient
> >>> temp,
> >>> A A rpm,
> >>> A A A A engine
> >>> A A A A AA A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position and
> >>> dozens of
> >>> A A A A other data
> >>> A A A A AA A points to build a very accurate simulation.
> >>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA Amazing, yes.AA
> >>> But the oil is
> >>> A A A A literally 3 feet from
> >>> A A A A AA A you.AA It's right there.AA Wouldn't it be easier
> >>> to
> >>> just
> >>> A A A A measure the
> >>> A A A A AA A temp?AA Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly
> >>> accurate and
> >>> A A A A quicker to
> >>> A A A A AA A react than an actual gauge under normal
> >>> conditions.AA And
> >>> A A A A there's the
> >>> A A A A AA A rub.AA Under typical loads the model is
> >>> exceptional,
> >>> but when
> >>> A A A A the
> >>> A A A A AA A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
> >>> programming
> >>> A A thanks
> >>> A A A A to
> >>> A A A A AA A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it
> >>> may
> >>> not be
> >>> A A A A capable of
> >>> A A A A AA A accurately predicting temps."
> >>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA They then
> >>> discuss
> >>> the loan of the
> >>> A A A A Chevy old school
> >>> A A A A AA A thermocouple to install and double check the
> >>> accuracy
> >>> of
> >>> A A A A virtual oil
> >>> A A A A AA A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
> >>> measurement
> >>> of the
> >>> A A A A actual
> >>> A A A A AA A temperature in real time.
> >>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA What is wrong
> >>> with
> >>> modern car
> >>> A A A A manufacturers?AA A A
> >>> A A A A AA A computer model simulation of the engine oil
> >>> A A temperature?AA What
> >>> A A A A could
> >>> A A A A AA A ever go wrong with that?AA A I am appalled and
> >>> flabbergasted
> >>> A A by
> >>> A A A A such
> >>> A A A A AA A things.AA I am a Luddite.
> >>> A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA
> >>> AA
> >>> AA AA A Confused,A
> >>> A A A A Chuck Engles
> >>> A A A A _______________________________________________
> >>> A A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>> A A A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >>> A A A A DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> A A A A [2][9][10][10]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A A A A
> >>> [3][10][11][11]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> A A A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
> >>> unsubscribe,
> >>> A A A A etc.) use the links above.
> >>> A A References
> >>> A A A 1. [11]mailto:[12][12]cengles at cox.net
> >>> A A A 2. [12]mailto:[13][13]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A A A 3.
> >>> [13][14][14]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> A A _______________________________________________
> >>> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>> A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >>> A A DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> A A [14][15][15]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A A
> >>> [15][16][16]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
> >>> unsubscribe,
> >>> etc.)
> >>> A A use
> >>> A A the links above.
> >>> A A _______________________________________________
> >>> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>> A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >>> A A DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> A A [16][17][17]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A A
> >>> [17][18][18]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
> >>> unsubscribe,
> >>> etc.)
> >>> A A use
> >>> A A the links above.
> >>> A A _______________________________________________
> >>> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>> A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >>> A A DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> A A [18][19][19]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A A
> >>> [19][20][20]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
> >>> unsubscribe,
> >>> etc.)
> >>> A A use the links above.
> >>> References
> >>> A A 1. mailto:[21][21]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> A A 2. mailto:[22][22]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >>> A A 3. mailto:[23][23]kirbyschrader at mac.com
> >>> A A 4. mailto:[24][24]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> A A 5. mailto:[25][25]detomaso at poca.com
> >>> A A 6. mailto:[26][26]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> A A 7. mailto:[27][27]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> A A 8. mailto:[28][28]cengles at cox.net
> >>> A A 9. mailto:[29][29]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A 10. [30][30]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> A 11. mailto:[31][31]cengles at cox.net
> >>> A 12. mailto:[32][32]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A 13. [33][33]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> A 14. mailto:[34][34]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A 15. [35][35]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> A 16. mailto:[36][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A 17. [37][37]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> A 18. mailto:[38][38]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> A 19. [39][39]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> [40][40]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> [41][41]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> >>> etc.) use the links above.
> >>> --
> >>> Sean Korb [42][42]spkorb at spkorb.org [43][43]http://www.spkorb.org
> >>> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71
Pantera
> >>> #1382
> >>> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
> >>> "Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
> >>> Picasso
> >>> References
> >>> 1. mailto:[44]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
> >>> 2. mailto:[45]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 3. mailto:[46]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >>> 4. mailto:[47]kirbyschrader at mac.com
> >>> 5. mailto:[48]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 6. mailto:[49]detomaso at poca.com
> >>> 7. mailto:[50]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 8. mailto:[51]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 9. mailto:[52]cengles at cox.net
> >>> 10. mailto:[53]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 11. [54]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 12. mailto:[55]cengles at cox.net
> >>> 13. mailto:[56]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 14. [57]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 15. mailto:[58]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 16. [59]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 17. mailto:[60]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 18. [61]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 19. mailto:[62]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 20. [63]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 21. mailto:[64]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 22. mailto:[65]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >>> 23. mailto:[66]kirbyschrader at mac.com
> >>> 24. mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 25. mailto:[68]detomaso at poca.com
> >>> 26. mailto:[69]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 27. mailto:[70]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 28. mailto:[71]cengles at cox.net
> >>> 29. mailto:[72]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 30. [73]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 31. mailto:[74]cengles at cox.net
> >>> 32. mailto:[75]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 33. [76]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 34. mailto:[77]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 35. [78]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 36. mailto:[79]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 37. [80]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 38. mailto:[81]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 39. [82]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 40. mailto:[83]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 41. [84]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 42. mailto:[85]spkorb at spkorb.org
> >>> 43. [86]http://www.spkorb.org/
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> >>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> [87]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> [88]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> >>> use the links above.
> >>>
> >>> References
> >>>
> >>> 1. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
> >>> 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 3. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >>> 4. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
> >>> 5. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 6. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> >>> 7. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 8. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 9. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 12. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 13. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 14. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 15. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 16. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 19. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 20. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 21. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 22. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >>> 23. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
> >>> 24. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 25. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> >>> 26. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 27. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 28. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 29. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 30. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 31. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 32. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 33. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 34. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 35. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 36. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 37. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 38. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 39. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 40. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 42. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
> >>> 43. http://www.spkorb.org/
> >>> 44. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
> >>> 45. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 46. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >>> 47. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
> >>> 48. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 49. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> >>> 50. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 51. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 52. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 53. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 54. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 55. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 56. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 57. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 58. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 59. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 60. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 61. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 62. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 63. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 64. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 65. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> >>> 66. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
> >>> 67. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 68. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> >>> 69. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> >>> 70. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> >>> 71. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 72. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 73. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 74. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> >>> 75. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 76. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 77. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 78. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 79. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 80. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 81. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 82. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 83. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 84. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> 85. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
> >>> 86. http://www.spkorb.org/
> >>> 87. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> 88. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
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> >>>
> >>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> >>> use the links above.
> >>
> >>
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> >> the links above.
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