[DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Himes, Terry (397C)
terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
Wed Sep 16 00:08:51 EDT 2015
Don't flame me, but I think the car companies saw a growing market for women car buyers. A majority (not all) just want to get from
point A to point B and look good. If it breaks, someone should come and fix it.
I taught my daughter how to do all the basic maintenance stuff. And she can (and does) do it. But somehow, built into her
DNA is the capability to change her shoes, comb her hair, put on makeup and text 3 friends… all while sitting at a stop light!! ;-))
"Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
to contact us!"
Terry W. Himes
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
InSight Sequence Team Lead
Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
thimes at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov>
🇺🇸
From: DeTomaso <detomaso-bounces at poca.com<mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com>> on behalf of Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com<mailto:asajay at asajay.com>>
Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:51 PM
To: POCA <detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
It's all part of the dumbing down of the consumer. It's like Microsoft
Windows 8 (or 10 for that matter), they think they know how it all
should be done and you don't need to worry about the details.
So in one of these dumbed down cars that only have idiot gauges, the
basic user feels like everything is good. And in the case of the oil
temperature thing mentioned earlier, it's all good...
... until something goes wrong that the predictive software can't
account for and the whole thing pukes and you end up with a smokin' heap
of aluminum attached to engine mounts.
Well... at least the gauges "look" really cool.
Asa Jay
Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
& Shelley Marie
Spokane, WA
******************************
http://www.racingagainstautism.com
http://www.teampanteraracing.com
http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
On 9/15/2015 7:57 PM, Will Kooiman wrote:
It isn¹t the engineer¹s fault. They design things. That¹s what they do.
My 1993 Cobra had the same type of idiot gauges. The oil pressure gauge
slowly went to slightly higher than midway, and it stayed there. That¹s
what most people expect.
If I recall correctly, they really were called idiot gauges. They were
idiot lights, that looked like a gauge, so you think it is a gauge, but
the needle really only tells you that you have pressure. It doesn¹t tell
you how much.
The software simulating all of that is the next iteration of idiot gauges.
The auto industry has no sense of direction. Or maybe they have their
target market pegged. Idiot virtual gauges for idiot detached drivers.
On 9/15/15, 10:44 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Dave"
<detomaso-bounces at poca.com<mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf of dave at damardirect.com<mailto:dave at damardirect.com>> wrote:
This is from an engineer friend Engineers... Would rather design a cup
and die of dehydration in the process than drink from the paper cup
hanging next to the water jug...
IndyDave
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Valdez [mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 1:06 PM
To: Brent Stewart
Cc: spkorb at gmail.com<mailto:spkorb at gmail.com>; detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level is
measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after checking
a few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the computer field,
thinks this is ridiculous. When he went to check the oil on his
girlfriends BMW and couldn't find the dipstick, he said dad, where is the
dipstick on this car? I told him about the sensors in the computer. He
said that stuff fails and I told him I know...
Dennis Valdez
On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso
<detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>> wrote:
This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works. Reads "dead
center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
"normal" range. I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the temp
gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb<spkorb at gmail.com<mailto:spkorb at gmail.com>>
wrote:
The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a few
years ago.A It turns out people were calling in to the dealer quite
a
bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers were
worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was in
the
red zone.
Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
Problem. Solved.
sean
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
<[1][1]Richard at richardgreenblum.com<mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com>> wrote:
A A There's another reason to add to the list.A This is a very
car-saavy
A A group of people.A Most of those F-150s and Explorers will be
sold to
A A people who don't look at the instruments, much less
understand
them, or
A A even care.A I'd be surprised if they're there for any reason
beyond
A A norm and style.
A A Richard
A A Austin, TX
A A From: DeTomaso<[1][2][2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com<mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com>> on behalf
of
Larry - Ohio
A A Time<[2][3][3]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com<mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>>
A A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
A A To: 'Kirby Schrader'<[3][4][4]kirbyschrader at mac.com<mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com>>,
'Charles
McCall'
A A<[4][5][5]charlesmccall at gmail.com<mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com>>
A A Cc: deTomaso List<[5][6][6]detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>>
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
A A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
A A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and
programming
A A code
A A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you
then
A A eliminate
A A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
unit... well
A A that
A A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
person who
A A came up
A A with that one is a VP now.
A A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
A A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
A A -----Original Message-----
A A From: DeTomaso [[6]mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
Behalf Of Kirby
A A Schrader
A A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
A A To: Charles McCall
A A Cc: Pantera list serve
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
A A Not quite as stupid, but..
A A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil
pressure
gauge in
A A the
A A instrument cluster.
A A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or at
rpm.
A A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely an
idiot
A A light in
A A the disguise of a gauge.
A A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have pressure.
A A FWIW,
A A Kirby
A A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
<[7][8][8]charlesmccall at gmail.com<mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com>>
A A wrote:
A A A Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that I'd
chalk it
A A up
A A A to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat reliable
source.
A A A A
A A A Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that is
quite
A A A unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
illogical.
A A To
A A A know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the car
is
A A A engineered properly. If everything goes according to plan,
then your
A A A temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole
idea
of
A A A measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual matches
the
A A A Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere. The
A A theoretical
A A A coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway is
192F if
A A A that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
factors,
A A where
A A A it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be
roughly
that.
A A A A
A A A If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting
stuck,
a leak
A A in
A A A your cooling system, something that the computer model
won't
take
A A into
A A A account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical
hasn't
A A changed,
A A A but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a
gasket and
A A A you have no idea.
A A A A
A A A This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of
car
A A A manufacturing... A
A A A On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
A A<[1][8][9][9]cengles at cox.net<mailto:cengles at cox.net>>
A A A wrote:
A A A A AA A Dear Forum,
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A I was just reading
the October
A A A A Grassroots Motorsports
A A A A AA A article about their project car a new Chevy Camaro
that they
A A A A were
A A A A AA A modifying and testing on the track.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA ".......While
enjoying
the track
A A outing,
A A A A we confirmed
A A A A AA A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
Daytona:
A A A A seemingly very
A A A A AA A high engine oil temps.AA After just a few laps,
the
oil temp
A A A A indicated
A A A A AA A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up to
within a
A A A A couple
A A A A AA A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA If
nothing
else, this
A A A A warranted
A A A A AA A some talks with Chevy.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA We had a
chat
and exchanged some
A A A A emails with one of
A A A A AA A their powertrain engineers and learned some
interesting
A A A A stuff.AA First
A A A A AA A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
actually
A A A A measuring oil
A A A A AA A temp per se.AA The gauge actually reflects what a
computer
A A A A model
A A A A AA A simulation estimates the oil temperature should be
based on
A A A A current
A A A A AA A information.AA It takes data parameters like
ambient
temp,
A A rpm,
A A A A engine
A A A A AA A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position and
dozens of
A A A A other data
A A A A AA A points to build a very accurate simulation.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA Amazing, yes.AA
But the oil is
A A A A literally 3 feet from
A A A A AA A you.AA It's right there.AA Wouldn't it be easier
to
just
A A A A measure the
A A A A AA A temp?AA Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly
accurate and
A A A A quicker to
A A A A AA A react than an actual gauge under normal
conditions.AA And
A A A A there's the
A A A A AA A rub.AA Under typical loads the model is
exceptional,
but when
A A A A the
A A A A AA A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
programming
A A thanks
A A A A to
A A A A AA A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it
may
not be
A A A A capable of
A A A A AA A accurately predicting temps."
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA They then
discuss
the loan of the
A A A A Chevy old school
A A A A AA A thermocouple to install and double check the
accuracy
of
A A A A virtual oil
A A A A AA A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
measurement
of the
A A A A actual
A A A A AA A temperature in real time.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA What is wrong
with
modern car
A A A A manufacturers?AA A A
A A A A AA A computer model simulation of the engine oil
A A temperature?AA What
A A A A could
A A A A AA A ever go wrong with that?AA A I am appalled and
flabbergasted
A A by
A A A A such
A A A A AA A things.AA I am a Luddite.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA
AA
AA AA A Confused,A
A A A A Chuck Engles
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-------------- next part --------------
Don't flame me, but I think the car companies saw a growing market for
women car buyers. A majority (not all) just want to get from
point A to point B and look good. If it breaks, someone should come
and fix it.
I taught my daughter how to do all the basic maintenance stuff. And
she can (and does) do it. But somehow, built into her
DNA is the capability to change her shoes, comb her hair, put on
makeup and text 3 friends... all while sitting at a stop light!! ;-))
"Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
to contact us!"
Terry W. Himes
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
InSight Sequence Team Lead
Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
[1]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
From: DeTomaso <[2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf of Asa Jay
Laughton <[3]asajay at asajay.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:51 PM
To: POCA <[4]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
It's all part of the dumbing down of the consumer. It's like Microsoft
Windows 8 (or 10 for that matter), they think they know how it all
should be done and you don't need to worry about the details.
So in one of these dumbed down cars that only have idiot gauges, the
basic user feels like everything is good. And in the case of the oil
temperature thing mentioned earlier, it's all good...
... until something goes wrong that the predictive software can't
account for and the whole thing pukes and you end up with a smokin'
heap
of aluminum attached to engine mounts.
Well... at least the gauges "look" really cool.
Asa Jay
Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
& Shelley Marie
Spokane, WA
******************************
[5]http://www.racingagainstautism.com
[6]http://www.teampanteraracing.com
[7]http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
On 9/15/2015 7:57 PM, Will Kooiman wrote:
It isn^1t the engineer^1s fault. They design things. That^1s what
they do.
My 1993 Cobra had the same type of idiot gauges. The oil pressure
gauge
slowly went to slightly higher than midway, and it stayed
there. That^1s
what most people expect.
If I recall correctly, they really were called idiot gauges. They were
idiot lights, that looked like a gauge, so you think it is a gauge, but
the needle really only tells you that you have pressure. It doesn^1t
tell
you how much.
The software simulating all of that is the next iteration of idiot
gauges.
The auto industry has no sense of direction. Or maybe they have their
target market pegged. Idiot virtual gauges for idiot detached drivers.
On 9/15/15, 10:44 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Dave"
<[8]detomaso-bounces at poca.com on behalf of
[9]dave at damardirect.com> wrote:
This is from an engineer friend Engineers... Would rather design a
cup
and die of dehydration in the process than drink from the paper cup
hanging next to the water jug...
IndyDave
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Valdez [[10]mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 1:06 PM
To: Brent Stewart
Cc: [11]spkorb at gmail.com; [12]detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level is
measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after
checking
a few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the computer field,
thinks this is ridiculous. When he went to check the oil on his
girlfriends BMW and couldn't find the dipstick, he said dad, where is
the
dipstick on this car? I told him about the sensors in the computer. He
said that stuff fails and I told him I know...
Dennis Valdez
On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso
<[13]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works. Reads "dead
center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
"normal" range. I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the
temp
gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean
Korb<[14]spkorb at gmail.com>
wrote:
The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a
few
years ago.A It turns out people were calling in to the dealer
quite
a
bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers
were
worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was
in
the
red zone.
Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
Problem. Solved.
sean
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
<[1][1][15]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
A A There's another reason to add to the list.A This is a
very
car-saavy
A A group of people.A Most of those F-150s and Explorers will
be
sold to
A A people who don't look at the instruments, much less
understand
them, or
A A even care.A I'd be surprised if they're there for any
reason
beyond
A A norm and style.
A A Richard
A A Austin, TX
A A From: DeTomaso<[1][2][2][16]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on
behalf
of
Larry - Ohio
A A Time<[2][3][3][17]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
A A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
A A To: 'Kirby Schrader'<[3][4][4][18]kirbyschrader at mac.com>,
'Charles
McCall'
A A<[4][5][5][19]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A A Cc: deTomaso List<[5][6][6][20]detomaso at poca.com>
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
A A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat
bastards.
A A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design
and
programming
A A code
A A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If
you
then
A A eliminate
A A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
unit... well
A A that
A A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
person who
A A came up
A A with that one is a VP now.
A A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
A A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
A A -----Original Message-----
A A From: DeTomaso
[[6][21]mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
Behalf Of Kirby
A A Schrader
A A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
A A To: Charles McCall
A A Cc: Pantera list serve
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
A A Not quite as stupid, but..
A A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil
pressure
gauge in
A A the
A A instrument cluster.
A A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or
at
rpm.
A A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely
an
idiot
A A light in
A A the disguise of a gauge.
A A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have
pressure.
A A FWIW,
A A Kirby
A A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
<[7][8][8][22]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A A wrote:
A A A Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that
I'd
chalk it
A A up
A A A to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat
reliable
source.
A A A A
A A A Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that
is
quite
A A A unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
illogical.
A A To
A A A know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the
car
is
A A A engineered properly. If everything goes according to
plan,
then your
A A A temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole
idea
of
A A A measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual
matches
the
A A A Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere.
The
A A theoretical
A A A coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway
is
192F if
A A A that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
factors,
A A where
A A A it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be
roughly
that.
A A A A
A A A If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting
stuck,
a leak
A A in
A A A your cooling system, something that the computer model
won't
take
A A into
A A A account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical
hasn't
A A changed,
A A A but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow
a
gasket and
A A A you have no idea.
A A A A
A A A This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of
car
A A A manufacturing... A
A A A On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
A A<[1][8][9][9][23]cengles at cox.net>
A A A wrote:
A A A A AA A Dear Forum,
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A I was just
reading
the October
A A A A Grassroots Motorsports
A A A A AA A article about their project car a new Chevy
Camaro
that they
A A A A were
A A A A AA A modifying and testing on the track.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA ".......While
enjoying
the track
A A outing,
A A A A we confirmed
A A A A AA A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
Daytona:
A A A A seemingly very
A A A A AA A high engine oil temps.AA After just a few
laps,
the
oil temp
A A A A indicated
A A A A AA A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up
to
within a
A A A A couple
A A A A AA A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA If
nothing
else, this
A A A A warranted
A A A A AA A some talks with Chevy.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA We had a
chat
and exchanged some
A A A A emails with one of
A A A A AA A their powertrain engineers and learned some
interesting
A A A A stuff.AA First
A A A A AA A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
actually
A A A A measuring oil
A A A A AA A temp per se.AA The gauge actually reflects
what a
computer
A A A A model
A A A A AA A simulation estimates the oil temperature should
be
based on
A A A A current
A A A A AA A information.AA It takes data parameters like
ambient
temp,
A A rpm,
A A A A engine
A A A A AA A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position
and
dozens of
A A A A other data
A A A A AA A points to build a very accurate simulation.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA Amazing,
yes.AA
But the oil is
A A A A literally 3 feet from
A A A A AA A you.AA It's right there.AA Wouldn't it be
easier
to
just
A A A A measure the
A A A A AA A temp?AA Well, Chevy says the modeling is
highly
accurate and
A A A A quicker to
A A A A AA A react than an actual gauge under normal
conditions.AA And
A A A A there's the
A A A A AA A rub.AA Under typical loads the model is
exceptional,
but when
A A A A the
A A A A AA A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
programming
A A thanks
A A A A to
A A A A AA A strained track action, even Chevy admits that
it
may
not be
A A A A capable of
A A A A AA A accurately predicting temps."
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA They then
discuss
the loan of the
A A A A Chevy old school
A A A A AA A thermocouple to install and double check the
accuracy
of
A A A A virtual oil
A A A A AA A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
measurement
of the
A A A A actual
A A A A AA A temperature in real time.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA What is wrong
with
modern car
A A A A manufacturers?AA A A
A A A A AA A computer model simulation of the engine oil
A A temperature?AA What
A A A A could
A A A A AA A ever go wrong with that?AA A I am appalled and
flabbergasted
A A by
A A A A such
A A A A AA A things.AA I am a Luddite.
A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A
A
AA
AA AA A Confused,A
A A A A Chuck Engles
A A A A _______________________________________________
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A A 3. [37]mailto:[23][23]kirbyschrader at mac.com
A A 4. [38]mailto:[24][24]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A A 5. [39]mailto:[25][25]detomaso at poca.com
A A 6. [40]mailto:[26][26]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
A A 7. [41]mailto:[27][27]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A A 8. [42]mailto:[28][28]cengles at cox.net
A A 9. [43]mailto:[29][29]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 10.
[30][30][44]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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--
Sean Korb [42][42][56]spkorb at spkorb.org
[43][43][57]http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71
Pantera
#1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
Picasso
References
1. [58]mailto:[44]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
2. [59]mailto:[45]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
3. [60]mailto:[46]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
4. [61]mailto:[47]kirbyschrader at mac.com
5. [62]mailto:[48]charlesmccall at gmail.com
6. [63]mailto:[49]detomaso at poca.com
7. [64]mailto:[50]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
8. [65]mailto:[51]charlesmccall at gmail.com
9. [66]mailto:[52]cengles at cox.net
10. [67]mailto:[53]DeTomaso at poca.com
11. [54][68]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
12. [69]mailto:[55]cengles at cox.net
13. [70]mailto:[56]DeTomaso at poca.com
14. [57][71]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
15. [72]mailto:[58]DeTomaso at poca.com
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17. [74]mailto:[60]DeTomaso at poca.com
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19. [76]mailto:[62]DeTomaso at poca.com
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21. [78]mailto:[64]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
22. [79]mailto:[65]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
23. [80]mailto:[66]kirbyschrader at mac.com
24. [81]mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
25. [82]mailto:[68]detomaso at poca.com
26. [83]mailto:[69]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
27. [84]mailto:[70]charlesmccall at gmail.com
28. [85]mailto:[71]cengles at cox.net
29. [86]mailto:[72]DeTomaso at poca.com
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31. [88]mailto:[74]cengles at cox.net
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References
1. [103]mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
2. [104]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
3. [105]mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
4. [106]mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
5. [107]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
6. [108]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
7. [109]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
8. [110]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
9. [111]mailto:cengles at cox.net
10. [112]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
11. [113]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
12. [114]mailto:cengles at cox.net
13. [115]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
14. [116]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
15. [117]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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21. [123]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
22. [124]mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
23. [125]mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
24. [126]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
25. [127]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
26. [128]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
27. [129]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
28. [130]mailto:cengles at cox.net
29. [131]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
30. [132]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
31. [133]mailto:cengles at cox.net
32. [134]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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42. [144]mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
43. [145]http://www.spkorb.org/
44. [146]mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
45. [147]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
46. [148]mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
47. [149]mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
48. [150]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
49. [151]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
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66. [168]mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
67. [169]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
68. [170]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
69. [171]mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
70. [172]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
71. [173]mailto:cengles at cox.net
72. [174]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
73. [175]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
74. [176]mailto:cengles at cox.net
75. [177]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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References
1. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
3. mailto:asajay at asajay.com
4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
5. http://www.racingagainstautism.com/
6. http://www.teampanteraracing.com/
7. http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
8. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
9. mailto:dave at damardirect.com
10. mailto:sjcarguy60 at yahoo.com
11. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
12. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
13. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
14. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
15. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
16. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
17. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
18. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
19. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
20. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
21. mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
22. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
23. mailto:cengles at cox.net
24. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
25. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
26. mailto:[12][12]cengles at cox.net
27. mailto:[13][13]DeTomaso at poca.com
28. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
29. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
30. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
31. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
32. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
33. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
34. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
35. mailto:[21][21]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
36. mailto:[22][22]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
37. mailto:[23][23]kirbyschrader at mac.com
38. mailto:[24][24]charlesmccall at gmail.com
39. mailto:[25][25]detomaso at poca.com
40. mailto:[26][26]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
41. mailto:[27][27]charlesmccall at gmail.com
42. mailto:[28][28]cengles at cox.net
43. mailto:[29][29]DeTomaso at poca.com
44. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
45. mailto:[31][31]cengles at cox.net
46. mailto:[32][32]DeTomaso at poca.com
47. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
48. mailto:[34][34]DeTomaso at poca.com
49. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
50. mailto:[36][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
51. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
52. mailto:[38][38]DeTomaso at poca.com
53. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
54. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
55. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
56. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
57. http://www.spkorb.org/
58. mailto:[44]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
59. mailto:[45]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
60. mailto:[46]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
61. mailto:[47]kirbyschrader at mac.com
62. mailto:[48]charlesmccall at gmail.com
63. mailto:[49]detomaso at poca.com
64. mailto:[50]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
65. mailto:[51]charlesmccall at gmail.com
66. mailto:[52]cengles at cox.net
67. mailto:[53]DeTomaso at poca.com
68. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
69. mailto:[55]cengles at cox.net
70. mailto:[56]DeTomaso at poca.com
71. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
72. mailto:[58]DeTomaso at poca.com
73. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
74. mailto:[60]DeTomaso at poca.com
75. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
76. mailto:[62]DeTomaso at poca.com
77. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
78. mailto:[64]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
79. mailto:[65]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
80. mailto:[66]kirbyschrader at mac.com
81. mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
82. mailto:[68]detomaso at poca.com
83. mailto:[69]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
84. mailto:[70]charlesmccall at gmail.com
85. mailto:[71]cengles at cox.net
86. mailto:[72]DeTomaso at poca.com
87. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
88. mailto:[74]cengles at cox.net
89. mailto:[75]DeTomaso at poca.com
90. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
91. mailto:[77]DeTomaso at poca.com
92. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
93. mailto:[79]DeTomaso at poca.com
94. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
95. mailto:[81]DeTomaso at poca.com
96. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
97. mailto:[83]DeTomaso at poca.com
98. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
99. mailto:[85]spkorb at spkorb.org
100. http://www.spkorb.org/
101. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
102. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
103. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
104. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
105. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
106. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
107. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
108. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
109. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
110. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
111. mailto:cengles at cox.net
112. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
113. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
114. mailto:cengles at cox.net
115. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
116. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
117. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
118. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
119. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
120. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
121. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
122. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
123. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
124. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
125. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
126. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
127. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
128. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
129. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
130. mailto:cengles at cox.net
131. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
132. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
133. mailto:cengles at cox.net
134. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
135. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
136. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
137. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
138. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
139. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
140. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
141. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
142. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
143. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
144. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
145. http://www.spkorb.org/
146. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
147. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
148. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
149. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
150. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
151. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
152. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
153. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
154. mailto:cengles at cox.net
155. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
156. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
157. mailto:cengles at cox.net
158. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
159. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
160. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
161. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
162. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
163. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
164. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
165. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
166. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
167. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
168. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
169. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
170. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
171. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
172. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
173. mailto:cengles at cox.net
174. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
175. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
176. mailto:cengles at cox.net
177. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
178. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
179. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
180. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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182. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
183. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
184. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
185. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
186. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
187. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
188. http://www.spkorb.org/
189. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
190. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
191. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
192. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
193. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
194. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
195. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
196. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
197. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
198. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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