[DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
Rob Dumoulin
rob at dumoulins.net
Tue Sep 15 15:04:05 EDT 2015
Similar with "Sealed For Life" BMW transmissions that you cannot check or
change oil in. They got that right. When the oil goes bad, that is the
end of life on the tranny, which has no official rebuild kit.
Rob DuMoulin
904.476.8744
rob at dumoulins.net
www.kbsi.co
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/rob-dumoulin/0/1b6/58
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 1:06 PM, Dennis Valdez via DeTomaso <
detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
> Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level is
> measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after checking a
> few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the computer field, thinks
> this is ridiculous. When he went to check the oil on his girlfriends BMW
> and couldn't find the dipstick, he said dad, where is the dipstick on this
> car? I told him about the sensors in the computer. He said that stuff fails
> and I told him I know...
>
> Dennis Valdez
>
> > On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso <
> detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
> >
> > This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works. Reads "dead
> > center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider a
> > "normal" range. I was surprised and somewhat excited to see the temp
> > gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
> > On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics list a few
> > years ago.A It turns out people were calling in to the dealer quite
> > a
> > bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the customers were
> > worried about their truck malfunctioning even though nothing was in
> > the
> > red zone.
> > Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
> > Problem. Solved.
> > sean
> > On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
> > <[1][1]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
> > A A There's another reason to add to the list.A This is a very
> > car-saavy
> > A A group of people.A Most of those F-150s and Explorers will be
> > sold to
> > A A people who don't look at the instruments, much less understand
> > them, or
> > A A even care.A I'd be surprised if they're there for any reason
> > beyond
> > A A norm and style.
> > A A Richard
> > A A Austin, TX
> > A A From: DeTomaso <[1][2][2]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf
> > of
> > Larry - Ohio
> > A A Time <[2][3][3]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
> > A A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
> > A A To: 'Kirby Schrader' <[3][4][4]kirbyschrader at mac.com>,
> > 'Charles
> > McCall'
> > A A <[4][5][5]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> > A A Cc: deTomaso List <[5][6][6]detomaso at poca.com>
> > A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
> > A A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat bastards.
> > A A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The design and
> > programming
> > A A code
> > A A to do this in the computer would be a one time cost. If you
> > then
> > A A eliminate
> > A A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a sending
> > unit... well
> > A A that
> > A A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles made. The
> > person who
> > A A came up
> > A A with that one is a VP now.
> > A A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
> > A A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
> > A A -----Original Message-----
> > A A From: DeTomaso [[6]mailto:[7][7]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
> > Behalf Of Kirby
> > A A Schrader
> > A A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
> > A A To: Charles McCall
> > A A Cc: Pantera list serve
> > A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with this
> > A A Not quite as stupid, but..
> > A A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an oil pressure
> > gauge in
> > A A the
> > A A instrument cluster.
> > A A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether idling or at
> > rpm.
> > A A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it is merely an
> > idiot
> > A A light in
> > A A the disguise of a gauge.
> > A A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you have pressure.
> > A A FWIW,
> > A A Kirby
> > A A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
> > <[7][8][8]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> > A A wrote:
> > A A A Chuck - it's something that is so hard to believe that I'd
> > chalk it
> > A A up
> > A A A to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a somewhat reliable
> > source.
> > A A A A
> > A A A Besides introducing a degree of complexity and cost that is
> > quite
> > A A A unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA backward and
> > illogical.
> > A A To
> > A A A know what your theoretical temp is is irrelevant if the car
> > is
> > A A A engineered properly. If everything goes according to plan,
> > then your
> > A A A temps are under control and everyone is happy. The whole
> > idea
> > of
> > A A A measuring the actual result is to see if the Actual matches
> > the
> > A A A Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong somewhere. The
> > A A theoretical
> > A A A coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on the highway is
> > 192F if
> > A A A that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on a lot of
> > factors,
> > A A where
> > A A A it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it should be
> > roughly
> > that.
> > A A A A
> > A A A If something unexpected happens - a thermostat getting
> > stuck,
> > a leak
> > A A in
> > A A A your cooling system, something that the computer model won't
> > take
> > A A into
> > A A A account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your theoretical
> > hasn't
> > A A changed,
> > A A A but your coolant system is empty, you are about to blow a
> > gasket and
> > A A A you have no idea.
> > A A A A
> > A A A This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire history of car
> > A A A manufacturing... A
> > A A A On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
> > A A <[1][8][9][9]cengles at cox.net>
> > A A A wrote:
> > A A A A AA A Dear Forum,
> > A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA A I was just reading
> > the October
> > A A A A Grassroots Motorsports
> > A A A A AA A article about their project car a new Chevy Camaro
> > that they
> > A A A A were
> > A A A A AA A modifying and testing on the track.
> > A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA ".......While
> > enjoying
> > the track
> > A A outing,
> > A A A A we confirmed
> > A A A A AA A the third thing that had begun to concern us at
> > Daytona:
> > A A A A seemingly very
> > A A A A AA A high engine oil temps.AA After just a few laps,
> > the
> > oil temp
> > A A A A indicated
> > A A A A AA A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack would creep up to
> > within a
> > A A A A couple
> > A A A A AA A needle widths of the 320-degree mark.AA If nothing
> > else, this
> > A A A A warranted
> > A A A A AA A some talks with Chevy.
> > A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA We had a chat
> > and exchanged some
> > A A A A emails with one of
> > A A A A AA A their powertrain engineers and learned some
> > interesting
> > A A A A stuff.AA First
> > A A A A AA A the oil temp gauge in the center cluster isn't
> > actually
> > A A A A measuring oil
> > A A A A AA A temp per se.AA The gauge actually reflects what a
> > computer
> > A A A A model
> > A A A A AA A simulation estimates the oil temperature should be
> > based on
> > A A A A current
> > A A A A AA A information.AA It takes data parameters like
> > ambient
> > temp,
> > A A rpm,
> > A A A A engine
> > A A A A AA A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle position and
> > dozens of
> > A A A A other data
> > A A A A AA A points to build a very accurate simulation.
> > A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA Amazing, yes.AA
> > But the oil is
> > A A A A literally 3 feet from
> > A A A A AA A you.AA It's right there.AA Wouldn't it be easier
> > to
> > just
> > A A A A measure the
> > A A A A AA A temp?AA Well, Chevy says the modeling is highly
> > accurate and
> > A A A A quicker to
> > A A A A AA A react than an actual gauge under normal
> > conditions.AA And
> > A A A A there's the
> > A A A A AA A rub.AA Under typical loads the model is
> > exceptional,
> > but when
> > A A A A the
> > A A A A AA A variables start to greatly exceed the normal
> > programming
> > A A thanks
> > A A A A to
> > A A A A AA A strained track action, even Chevy admits that it
> > may
> > not be
> > A A A A capable of
> > A A A A AA A accurately predicting temps."
> > A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA They then discuss
> > the loan of the
> > A A A A Chevy old school
> > A A A A AA A thermocouple to install and double check the
> > accuracy
> > of
> > A A A A virtual oil
> > A A A A AA A pan oil temp reality with......an actual
> > measurement
> > of the
> > A A A A actual
> > A A A A AA A temperature in real time.
> > A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA What is wrong
> > with
> > modern car
> > A A A A manufacturers?AA A A
> > A A A A AA A computer model simulation of the engine oil
> > A A temperature?AA What
> > A A A A could
> > A A A A AA A ever go wrong with that?AA A I am appalled and
> > flabbergasted
> > A A by
> > A A A A such
> > A A A A AA A things.AA I am a Luddite.
> > A A A A AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA AA
> > AA
> > AA AA A Confused,A
> > A A A A Chuck Engles
> > A A A A _______________________________________________
> > A A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > A A A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > A A A A DeTomaso mailing list
> > A A A A [2][9][10][10]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A A A A
> > [3][10][11][11]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A A A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
> > unsubscribe,
> > A A A A etc.) use the links above.
> > A A References
> > A A A 1. [11]mailto:[12][12]cengles at cox.net
> > A A A 2. [12]mailto:[13][13]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A A A 3.
> > [13][14][14]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A A _______________________________________________
> > A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > A A DeTomaso mailing list
> > A A [14][15][15]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A A [15][16][16]
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
> > unsubscribe,
> > etc.)
> > A A use
> > A A the links above.
> > A A _______________________________________________
> > A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > A A DeTomaso mailing list
> > A A [16][17][17]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A A [17][18][18]
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
> > unsubscribe,
> > etc.)
> > A A use
> > A A the links above.
> > A A _______________________________________________
> > A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > A A DeTomaso mailing list
> > A A [18][19][19]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A A [19][20][20]
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
> > unsubscribe,
> > etc.)
> > A A use the links above.
> > References
> > A A 1. mailto:[21][21]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> > A A 2. mailto:[22][22]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> > A A 3. mailto:[23][23]kirbyschrader at mac.com
> > A A 4. mailto:[24][24]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> > A A 5. mailto:[25][25]detomaso at poca.com
> > A A 6. mailto:[26][26]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> > A A 7. mailto:[27][27]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> > A A 8. mailto:[28][28]cengles at cox.net
> > A A 9. mailto:[29][29]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A 10. [30][30]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A 11. mailto:[31][31]cengles at cox.net
> > A 12. mailto:[32][32]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A 13. [33][33]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A 14. mailto:[34][34]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A 15. [35][35]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A 16. mailto:[36][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A 17. [37][37]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > A 18. mailto:[38][38]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > A 19. [39][39]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [40][40]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > [41][41]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> > etc.) use the links above.
> > --
> > Sean Korb [42][42]spkorb at spkorb.org [43][43]http://www.spkorb.org
> > '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
> > #1382
> > "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
> > "Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P.
> > Picasso
> > References
> > 1. mailto:[44]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
> > 2. mailto:[45]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> > 3. mailto:[46]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> > 4. mailto:[47]kirbyschrader at mac.com
> > 5. mailto:[48]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> > 6. mailto:[49]detomaso at poca.com
> > 7. mailto:[50]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> > 8. mailto:[51]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> > 9. mailto:[52]cengles at cox.net
> > 10. mailto:[53]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 11. [54]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 12. mailto:[55]cengles at cox.net
> > 13. mailto:[56]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 14. [57]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 15. mailto:[58]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 16. [59]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 17. mailto:[60]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 18. [61]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 19. mailto:[62]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 20. [63]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 21. mailto:[64]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> > 22. mailto:[65]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> > 23. mailto:[66]kirbyschrader at mac.com
> > 24. mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> > 25. mailto:[68]detomaso at poca.com
> > 26. mailto:[69]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> > 27. mailto:[70]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> > 28. mailto:[71]cengles at cox.net
> > 29. mailto:[72]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 30. [73]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 31. mailto:[74]cengles at cox.net
> > 32. mailto:[75]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 33. [76]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 34. mailto:[77]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 35. [78]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 36. mailto:[79]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 37. [80]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 38. mailto:[81]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 39. [82]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 40. mailto:[83]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 41. [84]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 42. mailto:[85]spkorb at spkorb.org
> > 43. [86]http://www.spkorb.org/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [87]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > [88]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> > use the links above.
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
> > 2. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> > 3. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> > 4. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
> > 5. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> > 6. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> > 7. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> > 8. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> > 9. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> > 10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 12. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> > 13. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 14. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 15. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 16. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 19. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 20. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 21. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> > 22. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> > 23. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
> > 24. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> > 25. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> > 26. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> > 27. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> > 28. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> > 29. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 30. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 31. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> > 32. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 33. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 34. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 35. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 36. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 37. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 38. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 39. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 40. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 42. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
> > 43. http://www.spkorb.org/
> > 44. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
> > 45. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> > 46. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> > 47. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
> > 48. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> > 49. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> > 50. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> > 51. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> > 52. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> > 53. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 54. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 55. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> > 56. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 57. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 58. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 59. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 60. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 61. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 62. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 63. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 64. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> > 65. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
> > 66. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
> > 67. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> > 68. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> > 69. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
> > 70. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> > 71. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> > 72. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 73. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 74. mailto:cengles at cox.net
> > 75. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 76. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 77. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 78. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 79. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 80. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 81. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 82. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 83. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 84. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > 85. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
> > 86. http://www.spkorb.org/
> > 87. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> > 88. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at poca.com
> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
> the links above.
>
-------------- next part --------------
Similar with "Sealed For Life" BMW transmissions that you cannot check
or change oil in.A They got that right.A When the oil goes bad, that
is the end of life on the tranny, which has no official rebuild kit.
Rob DuMoulin
904.476.8744
[1]rob at dumoulins.net
[2]www.kbsi.co
[3]http://www.linkedin.com/pub/rob-dumoulin/0/1b6/58
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 1:06 PM, Dennis Valdez via DeTomaso
<[4]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
Late model BMW don't have a dipstick to check the oil. The level is
measured by sensor and then delivered to the iDrive screen after
checking a few menus. Even my 23 year-old son who works in the
computer field, thinks this is ridiculous.A When he went to check
the oil on his girlfriends BMW and couldn't find the dipstick, he
said dad, where is the dipstick on this car? I told him about the
sensors in the computer. He said that stuff fails and I told him I
know...
Dennis Valdez
> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:21 AM, Brent Stewart via DeTomaso
<[5]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
>
>A A This is exactly how a "regular" bmw temp gauge works.A Reads
"dead
>A A center" if the operating temperature is in what they consider
a
>A A "normal" range.A I was surprised and somewhat excited to see
the temp
>A A gauge in my "M" actually represent the true temperature!
>A A On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 8:10 AM, Sean Korb
<[6]spkorb at gmail.com>
>A A wrote:
>A A A The F150/Explorer gauge question came over the Fordnatics
list a few
>A A A years ago.AA It turns out people were calling in to the
dealer quite
>A A a
>A A A bit because the oil gauge "fluctuated wildly" and the
customers were
>A A A worried about their truck malfunctioning even though
nothing was in
>A A the
>A A A red zone.
>A A A Now the "gauge" goes up to "normal" and stays there.
>A A A Problem. Solved.
>A A A sean
>A A A On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Richard Greenblum
>A A A <[1][1][7]Richard at richardgreenblum.com> wrote:
>A A A A AA A There's another reason to add to the list.AA This
is a very
>A A A A car-saavy
>A A A A AA A group of people.AA Most of those F-150s and
Explorers will be
>A A A A sold to
>A A A A AA A people who don't look at the instruments, much
less understand
>A A A A them, or
>A A A A AA A even care.AA I'd be surprised if they're there
for any reason
>A A A A beyond
>A A A A AA A norm and style.
>A A A A AA A Richard
>A A A A AA A Austin, TX
>A A A A AA A From: DeTomaso
<[1][2][2][8]detomaso-bounces at poca.com> on behalf
>A A of
>A A A A Larry - Ohio
>A A A A AA A Time <[2][3][3][9]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
>A A A A AA A Date: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 8:33 AM
>A A A A AA A To: 'Kirby Schrader'
<[3][4][4][10]kirbyschrader at mac.com>,
>A A 'Charles
>A A A A McCall'
>A A A A AA A <[4][5][5][11]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>A A A A AA A Cc: deTomaso List <[5][6][6][12]detomaso at poca.com>
>A A A A AA A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with
this
>A A A A AA A Kirby my Explorer has the "idiot gauges too", rat
bastards.
>A A A A AA A Lets look at this from a manufacturing side. The
design and
>A A A A programming
>A A A A AA A code
>A A A A AA A to do this in the computer would be a one time
cost. If you
>A A A A then
>A A A A AA A eliminate
>A A A A AA A the purchase, stock, supply and labor to install a
sending
>A A A A unit... well
>A A A A AA A that
>A A A A AA A adds up to very big money over all the vehicles
made. The
>A A A A person who
>A A A A AA A came up
>A A A A AA A with that one is a VP now.
>A A A A AA A Follow the money, it's always about the money!
>A A A A AA A Larry (has none) - Cleveland
>A A A A AA A -----Original Message-----
>A A A A AA A From: DeTomaso
[[6]mailto:[7][7][13]detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
>A A A A Behalf Of Kirby
>A A A A AA A Schrader
>A A A A AA A Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:38 AM
>A A A A AA A To: Charles McCall
>A A A A AA A Cc: Pantera list serve
>A A A A AA A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Something is so wrong with
this
>A A A A AA A Not quite as stupid, but..
>A A A A AA A My 2001 Lightning, as well as many F150's, has an
oil pressure
>A A A A gauge in
>A A A A AA A the
>A A A A AA A instrument cluster.
>A A A A AA A It always points to the same 'pressure' whether
idling or at
>A A A A rpm.
>A A A A AA A It is not a gauge. It looks like a gauge, but it
is merely an
>A A A A idiot
>A A A A AA A light in
>A A A A AA A the disguise of a gauge.
>A A A A AA A It doesn't measure pressure, it just shows you
have pressure.
>A A A A AA A FWIW,
>A A A A AA A Kirby
>A A A A AA A On Sep 15, 2015, at 02:31, Charles McCall
>A A A A <[7][8][8][14]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>A A A AA A wrote:
>A A A AA AA AA Chuck - it's something that is so hard to
believe that I'd
>A A A chalk it
>A A A AA A up
>A A A AA AA AA to Urban Legend if it hadn't come from a
somewhat reliable
>A A A source.
>A A A AA AA AA A
>A A A AA AA AA Besides introducing a degree of complexity and
cost that is
>A A A quite
>A A A AA AA AA unnecessary, the whole idea is completelyA
backward and
>A A A illogical.
>A A A AA A To
>A A A AA AA AA know what your theoretical temp is is
irrelevant if the car
>A A is
>A A A AA AA AA engineered properly. If everything goes
according to plan,
>A A A then your
>A A A AA AA AA temps are under control and everyone is happy.
The whole
>A A idea
>A A A of
>A A A AA AA AA measuring the actual result is to see if the
Actual matches
>A A A the
>A A A AA AA AA Theoretical, or is something has gone wrong
somewhere. The
>A A A AA A theoretical
>A A A AA AA AA coolant temp in the Pantera, for example, on
the highway is
>A A A 192F if
>A A A AA AA AA that's the thermostat temp. I know, depends on
a lot of
>A A A factors,
>A A A AA A where
>A A A AA AA AA it's measured, etc. But in a steady state it
should be
>A A roughly
>A A A that.
>A A A AA AA AA A
>A A A AA AA AA If something unexpected happens - a thermostat
getting
>A A stuck,
>A A A a leak
>A A A AA A in
>A A A AA AA AA your cooling system, something that the
computer model won't
>A A A take
>A A A AA A into
>A A A AA AA AA account, you'd have no way of knowing. Your
theoretical
>A A hasn't
>A A A AA A changed,
>A A A AA AA AA but your coolant system is empty, you are about
to blow a
>A A A gasket and
>A A A AA AA AA you have no idea.
>A A A AA AA AA A
>A A A AA AA AA This has to be the dumbest idea in the entire
history of car
>A A A AA AA AA manufacturing... A
>A A A AA AA AA On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 4:12 AM, Charles Engles
>A A A A AA A <[1][8][9][9][15]cengles at cox.net>
>A A A AA AA AA wrote:
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A Dear Forum,
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA
AAA A I was just reading
>A A A the October
>A A A AA AA AA AA Grassroots Motorsports
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A article about their project car a
new Chevy Camaro
>A A A that they
>A A A AA AA AA AA were
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A modifying and testing on the track.
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA
AAA ".......While
>A A enjoying
>A A A the track
>A A A AA A outing,
>A A A AA AA AA AA we confirmed
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A the third thing that had begun to
concern us at
>A A A Daytona:
>A A A AA AA AA AA seemingly very
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A high engine oil temps.AAA After
just a few laps,
>A A the
>A A A oil temp
>A A A AA AA AA AA indicated
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A on the Camaro's quad gauge pack
would creep up to
>A A A within a
>A A A AA AA AA AA couple
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A needle widths of the 320-degree
mark.AAA If nothing
>A A A else, this
>A A A AA AA AA AA warranted
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A some talks with Chevy.
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA
AAA AAA AAA We had a chat
>A A A and exchanged some
>A A A AA AA AA AA emails with one of
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A their powertrain engineers and
learned some
>A A A interesting
>A A A AA AA AA AA stuff.AAA First
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A the oil temp gauge in the center
cluster isn't
>A A A actually
>A A A AA AA AA AA measuring oil
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A temp per se.AAA The gauge actually
reflects what a
>A A A computer
>A A A AA AA AA AA model
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A simulation estimates the oil
temperature should be
>A A A based on
>A A A AA AA AA AA current
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A information.AAA It takes data
parameters like
>A A ambient
>A A A temp,
>A A A AA A rpm,
>A A A AA AA AA AA engine
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A load, vehicle speed, gear , throttle
position and
>A A A dozens of
>A A A AA AA AA AA other data
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A points to build a very accurate
simulation.
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA
AAA AAA Amazing, yes.AA
>A A A But the oil is
>A A A AA AA AA AA literally 3 feet from
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A you.AAA It's right there.AAA
Wouldn't it be easier
>A A to
>A A A just
>A A A AA AA AA AA measure the
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A temp?AAA Well, Chevy says the
modeling is highly
>A A A accurate and
>A A A AA AA AA AA quicker to
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A react than an actual gauge under
normal
>A A A conditions.AAA And
>A A A AA AA AA AA there's the
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A rub.AAA Under typical loads the
model is
>A A exceptional,
>A A A but when
>A A A AA AA AA AA the
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A variables start to greatly exceed
the normal
>A A A programming
>A A A AA A thanks
>A A A AA AA AA AA to
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A strained track action, even Chevy
admits that it
>A A may
>A A A not be
>A A A AA AA AA AA capable of
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A accurately predicting temps."
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA
AAA AAA They then discuss
>A A A the loan of the
>A A A AA AA AA AA Chevy old school
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A thermocouple to install and double
check the
>A A accuracy
>A A A of
>A A A AA AA AA AA virtual oil
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A pan oil temp reality with......an
actual
>A A measurement
>A A A of the
>A A A AA AA AA AA actual
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A temperature in real time.
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA
AAA AAA What is wrong
>A A with
>A A A modern car
>A A A AA AA AA AA manufacturers?AAA A A
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A computer model simulation of the
engine oil
>A A A AA A temperature?AAA What
>A A A AA AA AA AA could
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A ever go wrong with that?AAA A I am
appalled and
>A A A flabbergasted
>A A A AA A by
>A A A AA AA AA AA such
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA A things.AAA I am a Luddite.
>A A A AA AA AA AA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA
AAA AAA AAA AAA AAA AA
>A A AA
>A A A AAA AAA A Confused,A
>A A A AA AA AA AA Chuck Engles
>A A A AA AA AA AA
_______________________________________________
>A A A AA AA AA AA Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>A A A AA AA AA AA Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>A A A AA AA AA AA DeTomaso mailing list
>A A A A AA AA AA AA [2][9][10][10][16]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A A AA AA AA A
>A A A
A [3][10][11][11][17]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.
com
>A A A A AA AA AA AA To manage your subscription (change
email address,
>A A A A unsubscribe,
>A A A A AA AA AA AA etc.) use the links above.
>A A A A AA A References
>A A A A AA AA AA 1. [11]mailto:[12][12][18]cengles at cox.net
>A A A A AA AA AA 2. [12]mailto:[13][13][19]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A A AA AA AA 3.
>A A A
A [13][14][14][20]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A A AA A _______________________________________________
>A A A A AA A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>A A A A AA A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>A A A A AA A DeTomaso mailing list
>A A A A AA A [14][15][15][21]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A A AA A
[15][16][16][22]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A A AA A To manage your subscription (change email address,
>A A unsubscribe,
>A A A A etc.)
>A A A A AA A use
>A A A A AA A the links above.
>A A A A AA A _______________________________________________
>A A A A AA A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>A A A A AA A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>A A A A AA A DeTomaso mailing list
>A A A A AA A [16][17][17][23]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A A AA A
[17][18][18][24]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A A AA A To manage your subscription (change email address,
>A A unsubscribe,
>A A A A etc.)
>A A A A AA A use
>A A A A AA A the links above.
>A A A A AA A _______________________________________________
>A A A A AA A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>A A A A AA A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>A A A A AA A DeTomaso mailing list
>A A A A AA A [18][19][19][25]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A A AA A
[19][20][20][26]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A A AA A To manage your subscription (change email address,
>A A unsubscribe,
>A A A A etc.)
>A A A A AA A use the links above.
>A A A A References
>A A A A AA A 1. mailto:[21][21][27]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>A A A A AA A 2. mailto:[22][22][28]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>A A A A AA A 3. mailto:[23][23][29]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>A A A A AA A 4. mailto:[24][24][30]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>A A A A AA A 5. mailto:[25][25][31]detomaso at poca.com
>A A A A AA A 6. mailto:[26][26][32]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>A A A A AA A 7. mailto:[27][27][33]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>A A A A AA A 8. mailto:[28][28][34]cengles at cox.net
>A A A A AA A 9. mailto:[29][29][35]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A A AA 10.
[30][30][36]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A A AA 11. mailto:[31][31][37]cengles at cox.net
>A A A A AA 12. mailto:[32][32][38]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A A AA 13.
[33][33][39]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A A AA 14. mailto:[34][34][40]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A A AA 15.
[35][35][41]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A A AA 16. mailto:[36][36][42]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A A AA 17.
[37][37][43]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A A AA 18. mailto:[38][38][44]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A A AA 19.
[39][39][45]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A A _______________________________________________
>A A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>A A A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>A A A A DeTomaso mailing list
>A A A A [40][40][46]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A
A [41][41][47]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe,
>A A A A etc.) use the links above.
>A A A --
>A A A Sean Korb [42][42][48]spkorb at spkorb.org
[43][43][49]http://www.spkorb.org
>A A A '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59
A35,'71 Pantera
>A A A #1382
>A A A "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>A A A "Computers are useless.AA They can only give you answers."
-P.
>A A Picasso
>A A References
>A A A 1. mailto:[44][50]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>A A A 2. mailto:[45][51]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>A A A 3. mailto:[46][52]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>A A A 4. mailto:[47][53]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>A A A 5. mailto:[48][54]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>A A A 6. mailto:[49][55]detomaso at poca.com
>A A A 7. mailto:[50][56]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>A A A 8. mailto:[51][57]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>A A A 9. mailto:[52][58]cengles at cox.net
>A A A 10. mailto:[53][59]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A 11.
[54][60]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A 12. mailto:[55][61]cengles at cox.net
>A A A 13. mailto:[56][62]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A 14.
[57][63]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A 15. mailto:[58][64]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A 16.
[59][65]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A 17. mailto:[60][66]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A 18.
[61][67]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A 19. mailto:[62][68]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A 20.
[63][69]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A 21. mailto:[64][70]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>A A A 22. mailto:[65][71]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>A A A 23. mailto:[66][72]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>A A A 24. mailto:[67][73]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>A A A 25. mailto:[68][74]detomaso at poca.com
>A A A 26. mailto:[69][75]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>A A A 27. mailto:[70][76]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>A A A 28. mailto:[71][77]cengles at cox.net
>A A A 29. mailto:[72][78]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A 30.
[73][79]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A 31. mailto:[74][80]cengles at cox.net
>A A A 32. mailto:[75][81]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A 33.
[76][82]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A 34. mailto:[77][83]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A 35.
[78][84]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A 36. mailto:[79][85]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A 37.
[80][86]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A 38. mailto:[81][87]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A 39.
[82][88]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A 40. mailto:[83][89]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A A 41.
[84][90]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A A 42. mailto:[85][91]spkorb at spkorb.org
>A A A 43. [86][92]http://www.spkorb.org/
>A A _______________________________________________
>A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>A A DeTomaso mailing list
>A A [87][93]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A A [88][94]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe, etc.)
>A A use the links above.
>
> References
>
>A A 1. mailto:[95]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>A A 2. mailto:[96]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>A A 3. mailto:[97]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>A A 4. mailto:[98]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>A A 5. mailto:[99]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>A A 6. mailto:[100]detomaso at poca.com
>A A 7. mailto:[101]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>A A 8. mailto:[102]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>A A 9. mailto:[103]cengles at cox.net
>A 10. mailto:[104]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 11. [105]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 12. mailto:[106]cengles at cox.net
>A 13. mailto:[107]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 14. [108]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 15. mailto:[109]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 16. [110]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 17. mailto:[111]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 18. [112]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 19. mailto:[113]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 20. [114]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 21. mailto:[115]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>A 22. mailto:[116]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>A 23. mailto:[117]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>A 24. mailto:[118]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>A 25. mailto:[119]detomaso at poca.com
>A 26. mailto:[120]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>A 27. mailto:[121]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>A 28. mailto:[122]cengles at cox.net
>A 29. mailto:[123]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 30. [124]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 31. mailto:[125]cengles at cox.net
>A 32. mailto:[126]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 33. [127]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 34. mailto:[128]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 35. [129]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 36. mailto:[130]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 37. [131]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 38. mailto:[132]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 39. [133]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 40. mailto:[134]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 41. [135]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 42. mailto:[136]spkorb at spkorb.org
>A 43. [137]http://www.spkorb.org/
>A 44. mailto:[138]Richard at richardgreenblum.com
>A 45. mailto:[139]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>A 46. mailto:[140]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>A 47. mailto:[141]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>A 48. mailto:[142]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>A 49. mailto:[143]detomaso at poca.com
>A 50. mailto:[144]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>A 51. mailto:[145]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>A 52. mailto:[146]cengles at cox.net
>A 53. mailto:[147]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 54. [148]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 55. mailto:[149]cengles at cox.net
>A 56. mailto:[150]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 57. [151]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 58. mailto:[152]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 59. [153]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 60. mailto:[154]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 61. [155]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 62. mailto:[156]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 63. [157]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 64. mailto:[158]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>A 65. mailto:[159]Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
>A 66. mailto:[160]kirbyschrader at mac.com
>A 67. mailto:[161]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>A 68. mailto:[162]detomaso at poca.com
>A 69. mailto:[163]detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>A 70. mailto:[164]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>A 71. mailto:[165]cengles at cox.net
>A 72. mailto:[166]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 73. [167]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 74. mailto:[168]cengles at cox.net
>A 75. mailto:[169]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 76. [170]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 77. mailto:[171]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 78. [172]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 79. mailto:[173]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 80. [174]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 81. mailto:[175]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 82. [176]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 83. mailto:[177]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 84. [178]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>A 85. mailto:[179]spkorb at spkorb.org
>A 86. [180]http://www.spkorb.org/
>A 87. mailto:[181]DeTomaso at poca.com
>A 88. [182]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [183]DeTomaso at poca.com
> [184]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[185]DeTomaso at poca.com
[186]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
References
1. mailto:rob at dumoulins.net
2. http://www.kbsi.co/
3. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/rob-dumoulin/0/1b6/58
4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
5. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
6. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
7. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
8. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
9. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
10. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
11. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
12. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
13. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
14. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
15. mailto:cengles at cox.net
16. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
17. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
18. mailto:cengles at cox.net
19. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
20. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
21. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
22. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
23. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
24. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
25. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
26. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
27. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
28. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
29. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
30. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
31. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
32. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
33. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
34. mailto:cengles at cox.net
35. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
36. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
37. mailto:cengles at cox.net
38. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
39. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
40. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
42. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
43. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
44. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
45. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
46. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
47. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
48. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
49. http://www.spkorb.org/
50. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
51. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
52. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
53. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
54. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
55. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
56. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
57. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
58. mailto:cengles at cox.net
59. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
60. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
61. mailto:cengles at cox.net
62. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
63. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
64. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
65. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
66. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
67. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
68. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
69. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
70. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
71. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
72. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
73. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
74. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
75. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
76. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
77. mailto:cengles at cox.net
78. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
79. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
80. mailto:cengles at cox.net
81. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
82. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
83. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
84. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
85. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
86. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
87. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
88. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
89. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
90. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
91. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
92. http://www.spkorb.org/
93. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
94. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
95. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
96. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
97. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
98. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
99. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
100. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
101. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
102. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
103. mailto:cengles at cox.net
104. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
105. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
106. mailto:cengles at cox.net
107. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
108. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
109. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
110. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
111. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
112. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
113. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
114. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
115. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
116. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
117. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
118. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
119. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
120. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
121. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
122. mailto:cengles at cox.net
123. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
124. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
125. mailto:cengles at cox.net
126. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
127. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
128. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
129. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
130. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
131. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
132. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
133. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
134. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
135. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
136. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
137. http://www.spkorb.org/
138. mailto:Richard at richardgreenblum.com
139. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
140. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
141. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
142. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
143. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
144. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
145. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
146. mailto:cengles at cox.net
147. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
148. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
149. mailto:cengles at cox.net
150. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
151. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
152. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
153. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
154. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
155. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
156. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
157. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
158. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
159. mailto:Larry at ohiotimecorp.com
160. mailto:kirbyschrader at mac.com
161. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
162. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
163. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
164. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
165. mailto:cengles at cox.net
166. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
167. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
168. mailto:cengles at cox.net
169. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
170. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
171. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
172. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
173. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
174. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
175. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
176. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
177. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
178. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
179. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
180. http://www.spkorb.org/
181. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
182. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
183. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
184. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
185. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
186. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
More information about the DeTomaso
mailing list