[DeTomaso] Windsor or Cleveland question..
Sean Korb
spkorb at gmail.com
Sun Sep 6 17:07:43 EDT 2015
Here's that 400M I was talking about. Just showed up on their web site.
431 easy and cheap CI
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0702-ford-400m-engine-build/
On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Sean, thanks everyone. All good advice. All the input has answered
> my question, very well. Thank you all very much for the knowledge.
>
> Cullen
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:22 AM, Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think your application is the most important factor.A It sounds like
>> you are starting with a blank sheet.A Are you looking for horsepower,
>> weight, commonality of parts, commonality of systems, support from
>> vendors, or a particular rule set for racing?
>> When you start talking about changing an engine, even a small change
>> can have large consequences and A then you might want to change to a
>> different plan.A If you already had all the brackets and you just
>> wanted to get it running again, I would definitely go with the
>> Cleveland for supportability, performance baseline etc.A If i wanted
>> to win a race, that really drives what motor you put in it depending on
>> the governing body for your race circuit.A If cost is a concern, I
>> would still go Cleveland since the parts really are not that exotic and
>> all the vendors completely support them.
>> But blank sheet... and you want to go fast... I really like where Kirby
>> has gone with that, and many of us use our car for engineering
>> challenges so you end up with a lot of quirky variety.A Why not source
>> a 400 block and go with a very large 500+ cubic inch motor?A The
>> little 302 stroker is a lot of power for the least weight.A And Goran
>> would surely give you some advice on putting a 426 Hemi in it.A Or a
>> Coyote motor or the new Cobra motor supercharged? A 8000+ RPMs and
>> hundreds of HP right out of the box.A Or go really big and put a 429
>> Boss motor in the back or even a big block Chevy?A It's *your* car and
>> you can build it the way that is most satisfying.A If you build a 351W
>> as a compromise of some kind.... you'll live with that too.A And if
>> you are really really attached to 351W, you should do it.
>> I have a fairly rare Pantera so keeping it close to stock and puttering
>> from car show to car show suits me fine.A Plenty of power and since I
>> am in an urban area there aren't a lot of opportunities to really wind
>> it out unless I start using School Buses for staging lights.
>> It doesn't keep me from dreaming, though :)
>> sean
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Cullen McCann
>> <[1]cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> A A Dear Forum,
>> A A I'm sure this question has been discussed more than once in the
>> past,
>> A A but I cant readily find it and have only been intermittently
>> involved
>> A A with the Pantera following over the years.
>> A A If I get my facts wrong, forgive me. Some is based on research
>> and some
>> A A based on perception.
>> A A 351 Cleveland or Windsor?
>> A A I need to build a motor for my car anyway. I do not have the
>> original
>> A A engine or anyA engine for it at this time. I have had several
>> 351w
>> A A motors over the years. I understand the following criteria to
>> be true.
>> A A Both motors displace the same number, approximately, of cubic
>> inches.
>> A A Both have the same bellhousing bolt pattern. Both have the same
>> motor
>> A A mount locations. The Windsor is slightly narrower, leaving
>> A A theoretically more room for headers, fuel tanks, etc on either
>> side.
>> A A (?) length and height appear negligibly different.A
>> A A The Windsor is lighter in pounds. According to a few online
>> sources:
>> A A A
>> A A [1][2]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
>> A A ....theA WindsorAA appears to be about 25A lbs lighter,A
>> depending on
>> A A source and configuration.A Not a huge benefit, but certainly
>> not a
>> A A drawback . The aftermarket support forA WindsorA family engines
>> appears
>> A A significantly larger...A everyA 289-302-351w cylinder headA isA
>> an
>> A A option.A Many different manufacturers and models fromA
>> Trickflow,
>> A A Brodix, AFR, Ford motorsport,A Edelbrock etc are to choose
>> from. I know
>> A A of 600-plus streetableA horsepower motors in both. I have a
>> Windsor
>> A A with similar performance numbers in my Cobra Replica. It was
>> not hard
>> A A to make 550 horse in the Windsor and parts were very easy to
>> get
>> A A through and through.
>> A A My perception is that the Cleveland motor aftermarket support
>> is much
>> A A narrower, much more limited in choices for heads, intakes
>> availability
>> A A of good blocks, etc. Factory accessories, exhaustA systemsA etc
>> are of
>> A A no concern to me.
>> A A So...the obvious forthcoming question...if originality wasn't a
>> driving
>> A A concern...why go Cleveland?? Whats the motivation other thanA
>> purity? I
>> A A find that aA majority of PanteraA enthusiastsA aren't purists
>> anyway.
>> A A Are their other fitment concernsA I'm not aware of?
>> A A Thanks for your thoughts..
>> A A Cullen
>> A A .
>> References
>> A A 1. [3]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [4]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> [5]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
>> etc.) use the links above.
>>
>> --
>> Sean Korb [6]spkorb at spkorb.org [7]http://www.spkorb.org
>> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>> #1382
>> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>> "Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
>> 2. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
>> 3. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
>> 4. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 5. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 6. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
>> 7. http://www.spkorb.org/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
>> the links above.
>>
>>
>
--
Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
-------------- next part --------------
Here's that 400M I was talking about.A Just showed up on their web
site. 431 easy and cheap CI
[1]http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0702-ford-400m-engine-build
/
On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Cullen McCann
<[2]cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Sean, thanks everyone. All good advice. All the input has
answered my question, very well. Thank you all very much for the
knowledge.
Cullen
On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:22 AM, Sean Korb <[3]spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
A A I think your application is the most important factor.AA It
sounds like
A A you are starting with a blank sheet.AA Are you looking for
horsepower,
A A weight, commonality of parts, commonality of systems, support
from
A A vendors, or a particular rule set for racing?
A A When you start talking about changing an engine, even a small
change
A A can have large consequences and A then you might want to change
to a
A A different plan.AA If you already had all the brackets and you
just
A A wanted to get it running again, I would definitely go with the
A A Cleveland for supportability, performance baseline etc.AA If i
wanted
A A to win a race, that really drives what motor you put in it
depending on
A A the governing body for your race circuit.AA If cost is a
concern, I
A A would still go Cleveland since the parts really are not that
exotic and
A A all the vendors completely support them.
A A But blank sheet... and you want to go fast... I really like
where Kirby
A A has gone with that, and many of us use our car for engineering
A A challenges so you end up with a lot of quirky variety.AA Why
not source
A A a 400 block and go with a very large 500+ cubic inch motor?AA
The
A A little 302 stroker is a lot of power for the least weight.AA
And Goran
A A would surely give you some advice on putting a 426 Hemi in
it.AA Or a
A A Coyote motor or the new Cobra motor supercharged? A 8000+ RPMs
and
A A hundreds of HP right out of the box.AA Or go really big and
put a 429
A A Boss motor in the back or even a big block Chevy?AA It's
*your* car and
A A you can build it the way that is most satisfying.AA If you
build a 351W
A A as a compromise of some kind.... you'll live with that too.AA
And if
A A you are really really attached to 351W, you should do it.
A A I have a fairly rare Pantera so keeping it close to stock and
puttering
A A from car show to car show suits me fine.AA Plenty of power and
since I
A A am in an urban area there aren't a lot of opportunities to
really wind
A A it out unless I start using School Buses for staging lights.
A A It doesn't keep me from dreaming, though :)
A A sean
A A On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Cullen McCann
A A <[1][4]cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
A A A AA A Dear Forum,
A A A AA A I'm sure this question has been discussed more than
once in the
A A A past,
A A A AA A but I cant readily find it and have only been
intermittently
A A A involved
A A A AA A with the Pantera following over the years.
A A A AA A If I get my facts wrong, forgive me. Some is based on
research
A A A and some
A A A AA A based on perception.
A A A AA A 351 Cleveland or Windsor?
A A A AA A I need to build a motor for my car anyway. I do not
have the
A A A original
A A A AA A engine or anyA engine for it at this time. I have had
several
A A A 351w
A A A AA A motors over the years. I understand the following
criteria to
A A A be true.
A A A AA A Both motors displace the same number, approximately,
of cubic
A A A inches.
A A A AA A Both have the same bellhousing bolt pattern. Both have
the same
A A A motor
A A A AA A mount locations. The Windsor is slightly narrower,
leaving
A A A AA A theoretically more room for headers, fuel tanks, etc
on either
A A A side.
A A A AA A (?) length and height appear negligibly different.A
A A A AA A The Windsor is lighter in pounds. According to a few
online
A A A sources:
A A A AA A A
A A A AA A
[1][2][5]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
A A A AA A ....theA WindsorAAA appears to be about 25A lbs
lighter,A
A A A depending on
A A A AA A source and configuration.A Not a huge benefit, but
certainly
A A A not a
A A A AA A drawback . The aftermarket support forA WindsorA
family engines
A A A appears
A A A AA A significantly larger...A everyA 289-302-351w cylinder
headA isA
A A A an
A A A AA A option.A Many different manufacturers and models fromA
A A A Trickflow,
A A A AA A Brodix, AFR, Ford motorsport,A Edelbrock etc are to
choose
A A A from. I know
A A A AA A of 600-plus streetableA horsepower motors in both. I
have a
A A A Windsor
A A A AA A with similar performance numbers in my Cobra Replica.
It was
A A A not hard
A A A AA A to make 550 horse in the Windsor and parts were very
easy to
A A A get
A A A AA A through and through.
A A A AA A My perception is that the Cleveland motor aftermarket
support
A A A is much
A A A AA A narrower, much more limited in choices for heads,
intakes
A A A availability
A A A AA A of good blocks, etc. Factory accessories, exhaustA
systemsA etc
A A A are of
A A A AA A no concern to me.
A A A AA A So...the obvious forthcoming question...if originality
wasn't a
A A A driving
A A A AA A concern...why go Cleveland?? Whats the motivation
other thanA
A A A purity? I
A A A AA A find that aA majority of PanteraA enthusiastsA aren't
purists
A A A anyway.
A A A AA A Are their other fitment concernsA I'm not aware of?
A A A AA A Thanks for your thoughts..
A A A AA A Cullen
A A A AA A .
A A A References
A A A AA A 1.
[3][6]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
A A A _______________________________________________
A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
A A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A A [4][7]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A [5][8]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe,
A A A etc.) use the links above.
A A --
A A Sean Korb [6][9]spkorb at spkorb.org [7][10]http://www.spkorb.org
A A '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71
Pantera
A A #1382
A A "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
A A "Computers are useless.AA They can only give you answers." -P.
Picasso
References
A A 1. mailto:[11]cmccann1972 at gmail.com
A A 2. [12]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
A A 3. [13]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
A A 4. mailto:[14]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A 5. [15]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A 6. mailto:[16]spkorb at spkorb.org
A A 7. [17]http://www.spkorb.org/
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[18]DeTomaso at poca.com
[19]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
--
Sean Korb [20]spkorb at spkorb.org [21]http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
#1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
References
1. http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0702-ford-400m-engine-build/
2. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
3. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
4. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
5. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
6. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
7. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
8. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
9. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
10. http://www.spkorb.org/
11. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
12. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
13. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
14. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
15. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
16. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
17. http://www.spkorb.org/
18. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
19. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
20. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
21. http://www.spkorb.org/
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