[DeTomaso] Windsor or Cleveland question..

Sean Korb spkorb at gmail.com
Sun Sep 6 17:07:43 EDT 2015


Here's that 400M I was talking about.  Just showed up on their web site.
431 easy and cheap CI

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0702-ford-400m-engine-build/


On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Sean, thanks everyone. All good advice. All the input has answered
> my question, very well. Thank you all very much for the knowledge.
>
> Cullen
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:22 AM, Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>    I think your application is the most important factor.A  It sounds like
>>    you are starting with a blank sheet.A  Are you looking for horsepower,
>>    weight, commonality of parts, commonality of systems, support from
>>    vendors, or a particular rule set for racing?
>>    When you start talking about changing an engine, even a small change
>>    can have large consequences and A then you might want to change to a
>>    different plan.A  If you already had all the brackets and you just
>>    wanted to get it running again, I would definitely go with the
>>    Cleveland for supportability, performance baseline etc.A  If i wanted
>>    to win a race, that really drives what motor you put in it depending on
>>    the governing body for your race circuit.A  If cost is a concern, I
>>    would still go Cleveland since the parts really are not that exotic and
>>    all the vendors completely support them.
>>    But blank sheet... and you want to go fast... I really like where Kirby
>>    has gone with that, and many of us use our car for engineering
>>    challenges so you end up with a lot of quirky variety.A  Why not source
>>    a 400 block and go with a very large 500+ cubic inch motor?A  The
>>    little 302 stroker is a lot of power for the least weight.A  And Goran
>>    would surely give you some advice on putting a 426 Hemi in it.A  Or a
>>    Coyote motor or the new Cobra motor supercharged? A 8000+ RPMs and
>>    hundreds of HP right out of the box.A  Or go really big and put a 429
>>    Boss motor in the back or even a big block Chevy?A  It's *your* car and
>>    you can build it the way that is most satisfying.A  If you build a 351W
>>    as a compromise of some kind.... you'll live with that too.A  And if
>>    you are really really attached to 351W, you should do it.
>>    I have a fairly rare Pantera so keeping it close to stock and puttering
>>    from car show to car show suits me fine.A  Plenty of power and since I
>>    am in an urban area there aren't a lot of opportunities to really wind
>>    it out unless I start using School Buses for staging lights.
>>    It doesn't keep me from dreaming, though :)
>>    sean
>>
>>    On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Cullen McCann
>>    <[1]cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>      A  A Dear Forum,
>>      A  A I'm sure this question has been discussed more than once in the
>>      past,
>>      A  A but I cant readily find it and have only been intermittently
>>      involved
>>      A  A with the Pantera following over the years.
>>      A  A If I get my facts wrong, forgive me. Some is based on research
>>      and some
>>      A  A based on perception.
>>      A  A 351 Cleveland or Windsor?
>>      A  A I need to build a motor for my car anyway. I do not have the
>>      original
>>      A  A engine or anyA engine for it at this time. I have had several
>>      351w
>>      A  A motors over the years. I understand the following criteria to
>>      be true.
>>      A  A Both motors displace the same number, approximately, of cubic
>>      inches.
>>      A  A Both have the same bellhousing bolt pattern. Both have the same
>>      motor
>>      A  A mount locations. The Windsor is slightly narrower, leaving
>>      A  A theoretically more room for headers, fuel tanks, etc on either
>>      side.
>>      A  A (?) length and height appear negligibly different.A
>>      A  A The Windsor is lighter in pounds. According to a few online
>>      sources:
>>      A  A A
>>      A  A [1][2]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
>>      A  A ....theA WindsorAA  appears to be about 25A lbs lighter,A
>>      depending on
>>      A  A source and configuration.A Not a huge benefit, but certainly
>>      not a
>>      A  A drawback . The aftermarket support forA WindsorA family engines
>>      appears
>>      A  A significantly larger...A everyA 289-302-351w cylinder headA isA
>>      an
>>      A  A option.A Many different manufacturers and models fromA
>>      Trickflow,
>>      A  A Brodix, AFR, Ford motorsport,A Edelbrock etc are to choose
>>      from. I know
>>      A  A of 600-plus streetableA horsepower motors in both. I have a
>>      Windsor
>>      A  A with similar performance numbers in my Cobra Replica. It was
>>      not hard
>>      A  A to make 550 horse in the Windsor and parts were very easy to
>>      get
>>      A  A through and through.
>>      A  A My perception is that the Cleveland motor aftermarket support
>>      is much
>>      A  A narrower, much more limited in choices for heads, intakes
>>      availability
>>      A  A of good blocks, etc. Factory accessories, exhaustA systemsA etc
>>      are of
>>      A  A no concern to me.
>>      A  A So...the obvious forthcoming question...if originality wasn't a
>>      driving
>>      A  A concern...why go Cleveland?? Whats the motivation other thanA
>>      purity? I
>>      A  A find that aA majority of PanteraA enthusiastsA aren't purists
>>      anyway.
>>      A  A Are their other fitment concernsA I'm not aware of?
>>      A  A Thanks for your thoughts..
>>      A  A Cullen
>>      A  A .
>>      References
>>      A  A 1. [3]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
>>      _______________________________________________
>>      Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>      Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>>      DeTomaso mailing list
>>      [4]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>      [5]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>      To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
>>      etc.) use the links above.
>>
>>    --
>>    Sean Korb [6]spkorb at spkorb.org [7]http://www.spkorb.org
>>    '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>>    #1382
>>    "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>>    "Computers are useless.A  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
>>
>> References
>>
>>    1. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
>>    2. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
>>    3. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
>>    4. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>    5. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>    6. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
>>    7. http://www.spkorb.org/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
>> the links above.
>>
>>
>


-- 
Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
-------------- next part --------------
   Here's that 400M I was talking about.A  Just showed up on their web
   site. 431 easy and cheap CI
   [1]http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0702-ford-400m-engine-build
   /

   On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Cullen McCann
   <[2]cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:

   Thanks Sean, thanks everyone. All good advice. All the input has
   answered my question, very well. Thank you all very much for the
   knowledge.
   Cullen

   On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 10:22 AM, Sean Korb <[3]spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:

     A  A I think your application is the most important factor.AA  It
     sounds like
     A  A you are starting with a blank sheet.AA  Are you looking for
     horsepower,
     A  A weight, commonality of parts, commonality of systems, support
     from
     A  A vendors, or a particular rule set for racing?
     A  A When you start talking about changing an engine, even a small
     change
     A  A can have large consequences and A then you might want to change
     to a
     A  A different plan.AA  If you already had all the brackets and you
     just
     A  A wanted to get it running again, I would definitely go with the
     A  A Cleveland for supportability, performance baseline etc.AA  If i
     wanted
     A  A to win a race, that really drives what motor you put in it
     depending on
     A  A the governing body for your race circuit.AA  If cost is a
     concern, I
     A  A would still go Cleveland since the parts really are not that
     exotic and
     A  A all the vendors completely support them.
     A  A But blank sheet... and you want to go fast... I really like
     where Kirby
     A  A has gone with that, and many of us use our car for engineering
     A  A challenges so you end up with a lot of quirky variety.AA  Why
     not source
     A  A a 400 block and go with a very large 500+ cubic inch motor?AA
     The
     A  A little 302 stroker is a lot of power for the least weight.AA
     And Goran
     A  A would surely give you some advice on putting a 426 Hemi in
     it.AA  Or a
     A  A Coyote motor or the new Cobra motor supercharged? A 8000+ RPMs
     and
     A  A hundreds of HP right out of the box.AA  Or go really big and
     put a 429
     A  A Boss motor in the back or even a big block Chevy?AA  It's
     *your* car and
     A  A you can build it the way that is most satisfying.AA  If you
     build a 351W
     A  A as a compromise of some kind.... you'll live with that too.AA
     And if
     A  A you are really really attached to 351W, you should do it.
     A  A I have a fairly rare Pantera so keeping it close to stock and
     puttering
     A  A from car show to car show suits me fine.AA  Plenty of power and
     since I
     A  A am in an urban area there aren't a lot of opportunities to
     really wind
     A  A it out unless I start using School Buses for staging lights.
     A  A It doesn't keep me from dreaming, though :)
     A  A sean
     A  A On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Cullen McCann
     A  A <[1][4]cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
     A  A  A AA  A Dear Forum,
     A  A  A AA  A I'm sure this question has been discussed more than
     once in the
     A  A  A past,
     A  A  A AA  A but I cant readily find it and have only been
     intermittently
     A  A  A involved
     A  A  A AA  A with the Pantera following over the years.
     A  A  A AA  A If I get my facts wrong, forgive me. Some is based on
     research
     A  A  A and some
     A  A  A AA  A based on perception.
     A  A  A AA  A 351 Cleveland or Windsor?
     A  A  A AA  A I need to build a motor for my car anyway. I do not
     have the
     A  A  A original
     A  A  A AA  A engine or anyA engine for it at this time. I have had
     several
     A  A  A 351w
     A  A  A AA  A motors over the years. I understand the following
     criteria to
     A  A  A be true.
     A  A  A AA  A Both motors displace the same number, approximately,
     of cubic
     A  A  A inches.
     A  A  A AA  A Both have the same bellhousing bolt pattern. Both have
     the same
     A  A  A motor
     A  A  A AA  A mount locations. The Windsor is slightly narrower,
     leaving
     A  A  A AA  A theoretically more room for headers, fuel tanks, etc
     on either
     A  A  A side.
     A  A  A AA  A (?) length and height appear negligibly different.A
     A  A  A AA  A The Windsor is lighter in pounds. According to a few
     online
     A  A  A sources:
     A  A  A AA  A A
     A  A  A AA  A
     [1][2][5]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
     A  A  A AA  A ....theA WindsorAAA  appears to be about 25A lbs
     lighter,A
     A  A  A depending on
     A  A  A AA  A source and configuration.A Not a huge benefit, but
     certainly
     A  A  A not a
     A  A  A AA  A drawback . The aftermarket support forA WindsorA
     family engines
     A  A  A appears
     A  A  A AA  A significantly larger...A everyA 289-302-351w cylinder
     headA isA
     A  A  A an
     A  A  A AA  A option.A Many different manufacturers and models fromA
     A  A  A Trickflow,
     A  A  A AA  A Brodix, AFR, Ford motorsport,A Edelbrock etc are to
     choose
     A  A  A from. I know
     A  A  A AA  A of 600-plus streetableA horsepower motors in both. I
     have a
     A  A  A Windsor
     A  A  A AA  A with similar performance numbers in my Cobra Replica.
     It was
     A  A  A not hard
     A  A  A AA  A to make 550 horse in the Windsor and parts were very
     easy to
     A  A  A get
     A  A  A AA  A through and through.
     A  A  A AA  A My perception is that the Cleveland motor aftermarket
     support
     A  A  A is much
     A  A  A AA  A narrower, much more limited in choices for heads,
     intakes
     A  A  A availability
     A  A  A AA  A of good blocks, etc. Factory accessories, exhaustA
     systemsA etc
     A  A  A are of
     A  A  A AA  A no concern to me.
     A  A  A AA  A So...the obvious forthcoming question...if originality
     wasn't a
     A  A  A driving
     A  A  A AA  A concern...why go Cleveland?? Whats the motivation
     other thanA
     A  A  A purity? I
     A  A  A AA  A find that aA majority of PanteraA enthusiastsA aren't
     purists
     A  A  A anyway.
     A  A  A AA  A Are their other fitment concernsA I'm not aware of?
     A  A  A AA  A Thanks for your thoughts..
     A  A  A AA  A Cullen
     A  A  A AA  A .
     A  A  A References
     A  A  A AA  A 1.
     [3][6]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
     A  A  A _______________________________________________
     A  A  A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
     A  A  A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
     A  A  A DeTomaso mailing list
     A  A  A [4][7]DeTomaso at poca.com
     A  A  A [5][8]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     A  A  A To manage your subscription (change email address,
     unsubscribe,
     A  A  A etc.) use the links above.
     A  A --
     A  A Sean Korb [6][9]spkorb at spkorb.org [7][10]http://www.spkorb.org
     A  A '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71
     Pantera
     A  A #1382
     A  A "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
     A  A "Computers are useless.AA  They can only give you answers." -P.
     Picasso
     References
     A  A 1. mailto:[11]cmccann1972 at gmail.com
     A  A 2. [12]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
     A  A 3. [13]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
     A  A 4. mailto:[14]DeTomaso at poca.com
     A  A 5. [15]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     A  A 6. mailto:[16]spkorb at spkorb.org
     A  A 7. [17]http://www.spkorb.org/
     _______________________________________________
     Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
     Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
     DeTomaso mailing list
     [18]DeTomaso at poca.com
     [19]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
     etc.) use the links above.

   --
   Sean Korb [20]spkorb at spkorb.org [21]http://www.spkorb.org
   '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
   #1382
   "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
   "Computers are useless.A  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso

References

   1. http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0702-ford-400m-engine-build/
   2. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   3. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
   4. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
   5. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
   6. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
   7. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
   8. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   9. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
  10. http://www.spkorb.org/
  11. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
  12. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
  13. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
  14. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  15. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  16. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
  17. http://www.spkorb.org/
  18. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  19. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  20. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
  21. http://www.spkorb.org/


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