[DeTomaso] Windsor or Cleveland question..
Sean Korb
spkorb at gmail.com
Thu Sep 3 11:22:03 EDT 2015
I think your application is the most important factor. It sounds like you
are starting with a blank sheet. Are you looking for horsepower, weight,
commonality of parts, commonality of systems, support from vendors, or a
particular rule set for racing?
When you start talking about changing an engine, even a small change can
have large consequences and then you might want to change to a different
plan. If you already had all the brackets and you just wanted to get it
running again, I would definitely go with the Cleveland for supportability,
performance baseline etc. If i wanted to win a race, that really drives
what motor you put in it depending on the governing body for your race
circuit. If cost is a concern, I would still go Cleveland since the parts
really are not that exotic and all the vendors completely support them.
But blank sheet... and you want to go fast... I really like where Kirby has
gone with that, and many of us use our car for engineering challenges so
you end up with a lot of quirky variety. Why not source a 400 block and go
with a very large 500+ cubic inch motor? The little 302 stroker is a lot
of power for the least weight. And Goran would surely give you some advice
on putting a 426 Hemi in it. Or a Coyote motor or the new Cobra motor
supercharged? 8000+ RPMs and hundreds of HP right out of the box. Or go
really big and put a 429 Boss motor in the back or even a big block Chevy?
It's *your* car and you can build it the way that is most satisfying. If
you build a 351W as a compromise of some kind.... you'll live with that
too. And if you are really really attached to 351W, you should do it.
I have a fairly rare Pantera so keeping it close to stock and puttering
from car show to car show suits me fine. Plenty of power and since I am in
an urban area there aren't a lot of opportunities to really wind it out
unless I start using School Buses for staging lights.
It doesn't keep me from dreaming, though :)
sean
On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Dear Forum,
> I'm sure this question has been discussed more than once in the past,
> but I cant readily find it and have only been intermittently involved
> with the Pantera following over the years.
> If I get my facts wrong, forgive me. Some is based on research and some
> based on perception.
> 351 Cleveland or Windsor?
> I need to build a motor for my car anyway. I do not have the original
> engine or anyA engine for it at this time. I have had several 351w
> motors over the years. I understand the following criteria to be true.
> Both motors displace the same number, approximately, of cubic inches.
> Both have the same bellhousing bolt pattern. Both have the same motor
> mount locations. The Windsor is slightly narrower, leaving
> theoretically more room for headers, fuel tanks, etc on either side.
> (?) length and height appear negligibly different.A
> The Windsor is lighter in pounds. According to a few online sources:
> A
> [1]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
> ....theA WindsorA appears to be about 25A lbs lighter,A depending on
> source and configuration.A Not a huge benefit, but certainly not a
> drawback . The aftermarket support forA WindsorA family engines appears
> significantly larger...A everyA 289-302-351w cylinder headA isA an
> option.A Many different manufacturers and models fromA Trickflow,
> Brodix, AFR, Ford motorsport,A Edelbrock etc are to choose from. I know
> of 600-plus streetableA horsepower motors in both. I have a Windsor
> with similar performance numbers in my Cobra Replica. It was not hard
> to make 550 horse in the Windsor and parts were very easy to get
> through and through.
> My perception is that the Cleveland motor aftermarket support is much
> narrower, much more limited in choices for heads, intakes availability
> of good blocks, etc. Factory accessories, exhaustA systemsA etc are of
> no concern to me.
> So...the obvious forthcoming question...if originality wasn't a driving
> concern...why go Cleveland?? Whats the motivation other thanA purity? I
> find that aA majority of PanteraA enthusiastsA aren't purists anyway.
> Are their other fitment concernsA I'm not aware of?
> Thanks for your thoughts..
> Cullen
> .
>
> References
>
> 1. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
>
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>
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--
Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
-------------- next part --------------
I think your application is the most important factor.A It sounds like
you are starting with a blank sheet.A Are you looking for horsepower,
weight, commonality of parts, commonality of systems, support from
vendors, or a particular rule set for racing?
When you start talking about changing an engine, even a small change
can have large consequences and A then you might want to change to a
different plan.A If you already had all the brackets and you just
wanted to get it running again, I would definitely go with the
Cleveland for supportability, performance baseline etc.A If i wanted
to win a race, that really drives what motor you put in it depending on
the governing body for your race circuit.A If cost is a concern, I
would still go Cleveland since the parts really are not that exotic and
all the vendors completely support them.
But blank sheet... and you want to go fast... I really like where Kirby
has gone with that, and many of us use our car for engineering
challenges so you end up with a lot of quirky variety.A Why not source
a 400 block and go with a very large 500+ cubic inch motor?A The
little 302 stroker is a lot of power for the least weight.A And Goran
would surely give you some advice on putting a 426 Hemi in it.A Or a
Coyote motor or the new Cobra motor supercharged? A 8000+ RPMs and
hundreds of HP right out of the box.A Or go really big and put a 429
Boss motor in the back or even a big block Chevy?A It's *your* car and
you can build it the way that is most satisfying.A If you build a 351W
as a compromise of some kind.... you'll live with that too.A And if
you are really really attached to 351W, you should do it.
I have a fairly rare Pantera so keeping it close to stock and puttering
from car show to car show suits me fine.A Plenty of power and since I
am in an urban area there aren't a lot of opportunities to really wind
it out unless I start using School Buses for staging lights.
It doesn't keep me from dreaming, though :)
sean
On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Cullen McCann
<[1]cmccann1972 at gmail.com> wrote:
A A Dear Forum,
A A I'm sure this question has been discussed more than once in the
past,
A A but I cant readily find it and have only been intermittently
involved
A A with the Pantera following over the years.
A A If I get my facts wrong, forgive me. Some is based on research
and some
A A based on perception.
A A 351 Cleveland or Windsor?
A A I need to build a motor for my car anyway. I do not have the
original
A A engine or anyA engine for it at this time. I have had several
351w
A A motors over the years. I understand the following criteria to
be true.
A A Both motors displace the same number, approximately, of cubic
inches.
A A Both have the same bellhousing bolt pattern. Both have the same
motor
A A mount locations. The Windsor is slightly narrower, leaving
A A theoretically more room for headers, fuel tanks, etc on either
side.
A A (?) length and height appear negligibly different.A
A A The Windsor is lighter in pounds. According to a few online
sources:
A A A
A A [1][2]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
A A ....theA WindsorAA appears to be about 25A lbs lighter,A
depending on
A A source and configuration.A Not a huge benefit, but certainly
not a
A A drawback . The aftermarket support forA WindsorA family engines
appears
A A significantly larger...A everyA 289-302-351w cylinder headA isA
an
A A option.A Many different manufacturers and models fromA
Trickflow,
A A Brodix, AFR, Ford motorsport,A Edelbrock etc are to choose
from. I know
A A of 600-plus streetableA horsepower motors in both. I have a
Windsor
A A with similar performance numbers in my Cobra Replica. It was
not hard
A A to make 550 horse in the Windsor and parts were very easy to
get
A A through and through.
A A My perception is that the Cleveland motor aftermarket support
is much
A A narrower, much more limited in choices for heads, intakes
availability
A A of good blocks, etc. Factory accessories, exhaustA systemsA etc
are of
A A no concern to me.
A A So...the obvious forthcoming question...if originality wasn't a
driving
A A concern...why go Cleveland?? Whats the motivation other thanA
purity? I
A A find that aA majority of PanteraA enthusiastsA aren't purists
anyway.
A A Are their other fitment concernsA I'm not aware of?
A A Thanks for your thoughts..
A A Cullen
A A .
References
A A 1. [3]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
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--
Sean Korb [6]spkorb at spkorb.org [7]http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
#1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.A They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
References
1. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
2. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
3. http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
4. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
5. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
6. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
7. http://www.spkorb.org/
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