[DeTomaso] Windsor or Cleveland question..

[Kirby Schrader]

Weighing in late here, but I’m a recently converted Clevor fan.

I have three of them now.

The street Pantera has an 9.2” deck height SVO iron Windsor style block, Cleveland style main bearings and has 4V cast iron heads and EFI.
It is 393ci and dyno’d at 544HP.

The GT40 has a 9.5” deck height SVO iron Windsor style block with ‘Cleveland style’ Yates aluminum D3 heads and EFI.
It is 427ci and dyno’d at 540HP.

The race Pantera has a 9.2” deck height SVO iron Windsor style block, 302 main bearings and has 4V cast iron heads and Webers.
The heads have exhaust port plates. 
It is 353ci. I didn’t dyno it, but Tom Upton’s engine built nearly the same managed just over 700HP.
This thing revs… It’s redlined at 8000, but Tom says it’ll go to 9000, no problem.
Trying to make it last awhile...

I went for years with a 377ci Cleveland that seemed bullet proof at around 420HP or so, but as soon as I tried to make it do 550HP, they started breaking. Tom Upton tried to run Clevelands in his race car for years and even had a professional engine builder help him build them. He still managed to break 6 engines in 2 years.

I like the strength of the SVO blocks.

As for intakes, I am still using a Cleveland style manifold on the street Pantera. I just made an adapter plate to go underneath it so it fits the Windsor block pattern.
All the engines have the heads drilled for coolant exit and they all use a remote thermostat…well, the race car doesn’t use any thermostat.

I like what I’ve got and recommend them.

FWIW,
Kirby


> On Sep 2, 2015, at 16:44, Mike Drew via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
> 
>   In a message dated 9/2/15 8 36 21, cmccann1972 at gmail.com writes:
> 
>     351 Cleveland or Windsor?
> 
>>>> Ah, the age-old question...
> 
>> I need to build a motor for my car anyway. I do not have the
>     original
>     engine or any engine for it at this time.
> 
>>>> That certainly frees up your options.  What about the accessories?
>   Do you have the Pantera-specific alternator/AC pump bracket?  Dipstick
>   and tube? Small-diameter two-sheave crank pulley? Motor mounts?
> 
>> I have had several 351w motors
>     over the years. I understand the following criteria to be true. Both
>     motors
>     displace the same number, approximately, of cubic inches. Both have
>     the
>     same bellhousing bolt pattern. Both have the same motor mount
>     locations.
>     The Windsor is slightly narrower, leaving theoretically more room
>     for
>     headers, fuel tanks, etc on either side. (?) length and height
>     appear
>     negligibly different.
> 
>>>> To me, the Windsor appears to be visibly smaller (almost looking
>   lost) in the engine bay.
>   Windsor headers are available for the Pantera, but the dirty secret of
>   their design is that the pipes extend a significant distance to the
>   side before they turn down.  On the right side, the rearmost pipe
>   crashes right into the water bottle!  That means you have to relocate
>   the water bottles as part of the (many) modifications needed to cram a
>   Windsor into a Pantera.
> 
>> The Windsor is lighter in pounds. According to a few online
>     sources:
>     http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
>     ....the Windsor  appears to be about 25 lbs lighter, depending on
>     source
>     and configuration. Not a huge benefit, but certainly not a drawback
>     .
> 
>>>> It would be interesting to compare the weight of a Windsor with
>   aluminum heads and intake, with a Cleveland similarly-equipped.  The
>   difference might not be as great?
> 
>> The
>     aftermarket support for Windsor family engines appears significantly
>     larger... every 289-302-351w cylinder head is an option. Many
>     different
>     manufacturers and models from Trickflow, Brodix, AFR, Ford
>     motorsport, Edelbrock etc are to choose from.
> 
>>>> While true, it's not a significant fact.  At the end of the day, you
>   only need to buy one pair of heads.  If you only have a dozen to choose
>   from instead of a hundred, so what?  For sure you will find a pair that
>   works with your plans and budget, whichever way you go.  Choosing
>   Cleveland heads is easier simply because there are fewer options, but
>   there are still PLENTY of options.
> 
>> I know of 600-plus
>     streetable horsepower motors in both. I have a Windsor with similar
>     performance numbers in my Cobra Replica. It was not hard to make 550
>     horse
>     in the Windsor and parts were very easy to get through and through.
> 
>>>> And Cleveland parts, although fewer in number, are no less easy to
>   get.
> 
>> My perception is that the Cleveland motor aftermarket support is
>     much
>     narrower, much more limited in choices for heads, intakes
>     availability of
>     good blocks, etc.
> 
>>>> True, but again, irrelevant.  There are a number of excellent
>   options available for both designs, and the prices are roughly
>   comparable.
> 
>> Factory accessories, exhaust systems etc are of no
>     concern to me.
> 
>>>> Well, they should be.  There is really only one exhaust option
>   available for the Windsor, the headers sold by PIM.  Oh, and I guess
>   you can get 180 degree exhausts from Precision Proformance, so that's
>   two.  On the other hand, there are numerous systems available for the
>   351C, so there the 351C actually has an advantage.
> 
>> So...the obvious forthcoming question...if originality wasn't a
>     driving
>     concern...why go Cleveland?? Whats the motivation other than purity?
>     I find
>     that a majority of Pantera enthusiasts aren't purists anyway. Are
>     their
>     other fitment concerns I'm not aware of?
> 
>>>> It's a matter of simplicity and parts availability.  While there are
>   more engine parts available for the Windsor, there are fewer external
>   accessory parts available.  So you would have to buy a bunch of
>   external bits to make it all work.
>   I used to be (for years and years) a huge proponent of switching to the
>   Windsor; at the time parts availability for the Cleveland wasn't good
>   at all.  But the pendulum has swung the other way and now I'm a staunch
>   Cleveland advocate for the Pantera.
>   A determining factor may be whether or not you already have the
>   external bits for the Cleveland.  If you don't already have the
>   necessary dipstick setup, pulleys, throttle cable bracket etc. and
>   would have to buy everything no matter what, that reduces the advantage
>   of the Cleveland over the Windsor.
>   You can't go wrong either way, thankfully. :>)
>   Mike
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