[DeTomaso] Windsor or Cleveland question..

[MikeLDrew at aol.com]

In a message dated 9/2/15 8 36 21, cmccann1972 at gmail.com writes:


> 
> 351 Cleveland or Windsor?
> 
>>>Ah, the age-old question...
> 
> >I need to build a motor for my car anyway. I do not have the original
> engine or any engine for it at this time. 
> 
>>>That certainly frees up your options.   What about the accessories?   Do 
you have the Pantera-specific alternator/AC pump bracket?   Dipstick and 
tube? Small-diameter two-sheave crank pulley? Motor mounts?

> >I have had several 351w motors
> over the years. I understand the following criteria to be true. Both 
> motors
> displace the same number, approximately, of cubic inches. Both have the
> same bellhousing bolt pattern. Both have the same motor mount locations.
> The Windsor is slightly narrower, leaving theoretically more room for
> headers, fuel tanks, etc on either side. (?) length and height appear
> negligibly different.
> 
>>>To me, the Windsor appears to be visibly smaller (almost looking lost) 
in the engine bay.

Windsor headers are available for the Pantera, but the dirty secret of 
their design is that the pipes extend a significant distance to the side before 
they turn down.   On the right side, the rearmost pipe crashes right into 
the water bottle!   That means you have to relocate the water bottles as part 
of the (many) modifications needed to cram a Windsor into a Pantera.
> 
> >The Windsor is lighter in pounds. According to a few online sources:
> 
> http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
> 
> ....the Windsor  appears to be about 25 lbs lighter, depending on source
> and configuration. Not a huge benefit, but certainly not a drawback . 
> 
>>>It would be interesting to compare the weight of a Windsor with aluminum 
heads and intake, with a Cleveland similarly-equipped.   The difference 
might not be as great?

> >The
> aftermarket support for Windsor family engines appears significantly
> larger... every 289-302-351w cylinder head is an option. Many different
> manufacturers and models from Trickflow, Brodix, AFR, Ford
> motorsport, Edelbrock etc are to choose from. 
> 
>>>While true, it's not a significant fact.   At the end of the day, you 
only need to buy one pair of heads.   If you only have a dozen to choose from 
instead of a hundred, so what?   For sure you will find a pair that works 
with your plans and budget, whichever way you go.   Choosing Cleveland heads 
is easier simply because there are fewer options, but there are still PLENTY 
of options.


> >I know of 600-plus
> streetable horsepower motors in both. I have a Windsor with similar
> performance numbers in my Cobra Replica. It was not hard to make 550 horse
> in the Windsor and parts were very easy to get through and through.
> 
>>>And Cleveland parts, although fewer in number, are no less easy to get.
> 
> >My perception is that the Cleveland motor aftermarket support is much
> narrower, much more limited in choices for heads, intakes availability of
> good blocks, etc. 
> 
>>>True, but again, irrelevant.   There are a number of excellent options 
available for both designs, and the prices are roughly comparable.

> >Factory accessories, exhaust systems etc are of no
> concern to me.
> 
>>>Well, they should be.   There is really only one exhaust option 
available for the Windsor, the headers sold by PIM.   Oh, and I guess you can get 
180 degree exhausts from Precision Proformance, so that's two.   On the other 
hand, there are numerous systems available for the 351C, so there the 351C 
actually has an advantage.
> 
> >So...the obvious forthcoming question...if originality wasn't a driving
> concern...why go Cleveland?? Whats the motivation other than purity? I 
> find
> that a majority of Pantera enthusiasts aren't purists anyway. Are their
> other fitment concerns I'm not aware of?
> 
>>>It's a matter of simplicity and parts availability.   While there are 
more engine parts available for the Windsor, there are fewer external 
accessory parts available.   So you would have to buy a bunch of external bits to 
make it all work.

I used to be (for years and years) a huge proponent of switching to the 
Windsor; at the time parts availability for the Cleveland wasn't good at all.   
But the pendulum has swung the other way and now I'm a staunch Cleveland 
advocate for the Pantera.

A determining factor may be whether or not you already have the external 
bits for the Cleveland.   If you don't already have the necessary dipstick 
setup, pulleys, throttle cable bracket etc. and would have to buy everything no 
matter what, that reduces the advantage of the Cleveland over the Windsor.

You can't go wrong either way, thankfully. :>)

Mike
-------------- next part --------------
   In a message dated 9/2/15 8 36 21, cmccann1972 at gmail.com writes:

     351 Cleveland or Windsor?

   >>>Ah, the age-old question...

     >I need to build a motor for my car anyway. I do not have the
     original
     engine or any engine for it at this time.

   >>>That certainly frees up your options.  What about the accessories?
   Do you have the Pantera-specific alternator/AC pump bracket?  Dipstick
   and tube? Small-diameter two-sheave crank pulley? Motor mounts?

     >I have had several 351w motors
     over the years. I understand the following criteria to be true. Both
     motors
     displace the same number, approximately, of cubic inches. Both have
     the
     same bellhousing bolt pattern. Both have the same motor mount
     locations.
     The Windsor is slightly narrower, leaving theoretically more room
     for
     headers, fuel tanks, etc on either side. (?) length and height
     appear
     negligibly different.

   >>>To me, the Windsor appears to be visibly smaller (almost looking
   lost) in the engine bay.
   Windsor headers are available for the Pantera, but the dirty secret of
   their design is that the pipes extend a significant distance to the
   side before they turn down.  On the right side, the rearmost pipe
   crashes right into the water bottle!  That means you have to relocate
   the water bottles as part of the (many) modifications needed to cram a
   Windsor into a Pantera.

     >The Windsor is lighter in pounds. According to a few online
     sources:
     http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
     ....the Windsor  appears to be about 25 lbs lighter, depending on
     source
     and configuration. Not a huge benefit, but certainly not a drawback
     .

   >>>It would be interesting to compare the weight of a Windsor with
   aluminum heads and intake, with a Cleveland similarly-equipped.  The
   difference might not be as great?

     >The
     aftermarket support for Windsor family engines appears significantly
     larger... every 289-302-351w cylinder head is an option. Many
     different
     manufacturers and models from Trickflow, Brodix, AFR, Ford
     motorsport, Edelbrock etc are to choose from.

   >>>While true, it's not a significant fact.  At the end of the day, you
   only need to buy one pair of heads.  If you only have a dozen to choose
   from instead of a hundred, so what?  For sure you will find a pair that
   works with your plans and budget, whichever way you go.  Choosing
   Cleveland heads is easier simply because there are fewer options, but
   there are still PLENTY of options.

     >I know of 600-plus
     streetable horsepower motors in both. I have a Windsor with similar
     performance numbers in my Cobra Replica. It was not hard to make 550
     horse
     in the Windsor and parts were very easy to get through and through.

   >>>And Cleveland parts, although fewer in number, are no less easy to
   get.

     >My perception is that the Cleveland motor aftermarket support is
     much
     narrower, much more limited in choices for heads, intakes
     availability of
     good blocks, etc.

   >>>True, but again, irrelevant.  There are a number of excellent
   options available for both designs, and the prices are roughly
   comparable.

     >Factory accessories, exhaust systems etc are of no
     concern to me.

   >>>Well, they should be.  There is really only one exhaust option
   available for the Windsor, the headers sold by PIM.  Oh, and I guess
   you can get 180 degree exhausts from Precision Proformance, so that's
   two.  On the other hand, there are numerous systems available for the
   351C, so there the 351C actually has an advantage.

     >So...the obvious forthcoming question...if originality wasn't a
     driving
     concern...why go Cleveland?? Whats the motivation other than purity?
     I find
     that a majority of Pantera enthusiasts aren't purists anyway. Are
     their
     other fitment concerns I'm not aware of?

   >>>It's a matter of simplicity and parts availability.  While there are
   more engine parts available for the Windsor, there are fewer external
   accessory parts available.  So you would have to buy a bunch of
   external bits to make it all work.
   I used to be (for years and years) a huge proponent of switching to the
   Windsor; at the time parts availability for the Cleveland wasn't good
   at all.  But the pendulum has swung the other way and now I'm a staunch
   Cleveland advocate for the Pantera.
   A determining factor may be whether or not you already have the
   external bits for the Cleveland.  If you don't already have the
   necessary dipstick setup, pulleys, throttle cable bracket etc. and
   would have to buy everything no matter what, that reduces the advantage
   of the Cleveland over the Windsor.
   You can't go wrong either way, thankfully. :>)
   Mike