[DeTomaso] Windsor or Cleveland question..
Ken Green
kenn_green at yahoo.com
Wed Sep 2 13:53:00 EDT 2015
If I was going to spend a lot on an entirely new engine, I'd go with after market aluminum Cleveland heads. I think you save about 25 pounds per head (50 total), and they look cool.
I think you may be a bit limited on intake manifolds if you build a 9.5 deck Clevor, there are single plane, air gap, race manifolds made for seriously high RPM, but there may not be a lot more. I assume Dan Jones would be the expert on that. If you build a 9.2 deck Clevor, I think you are limited to race blocks, which depending on the HP you want, may be a good thing, but be careful that you don't get a dry sump only block unless you really want that. I think the iron 9.2 deck race blocks are about 200 pound (break even with aluminum heads and lower the CG), aluminum blocks are around 100 pounds.
Ken
From: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
To: MyCars <mycars at comcast.net>
Cc: DeTomaso Forum <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2015 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Windsor or Cleveland question..
Id love to know more about it! I am familiar with the term, but don't
know enough about the pros and cons. Id like to avoid special machining
or
On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:03 AM, MyCars <[1]mycars at comcast.net> wrote:
A A What about taking the best of both worlds and going with the
Clevor
A A option. (Windsor block mated to the massive Cleveland heads)
A A On 9/2/2015 8:36 AM, Cullen McCann wrote:
A A Dear Forum,
A A I'm sure this question has been discussed more than once in the
past,
A A but I cant readily find it and have only been intermittently
involved
A A with the Pantera following over the years.
A A If I get my facts wrong, forgive me. Some is based on research
and some
A A based on perception.
A A 351 Cleveland or Windsor?
A A I need to build a motor for my car anyway. I do not have the
original
A A engine or anyA engine for it at this time. I have had several
351w
A A motors over the years. I understand the following criteria to
be true.
A A Both motors displace the same number, approximately, of cubic
inches.
A A Both have the same bellhousing bolt pattern. Both have the same
motor
A A mount locations. The Windsor is slightly narrower, leaving
A A theoretically more room for headers, fuel tanks, etc on either
side.
A A (?) length and height appear negligibly different.A
A A The Windsor is lighter in pounds. According to a few online
sources:
A A A
A
A [1][1][2]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
A A ....theA WindsorAA appears to be about 25A lbs lighter,A
depending on
A A source and configuration.A Not a huge benefit, but certainly
not a
A A drawback . The aftermarket support forA WindsorA family engines
appears
A A significantly larger...A everyA 289-302-351w cylinder headA isA
an
A A option.A Many different manufacturers and models fromA
Trickflow,
A A Brodix, AFR, Ford motorsport,A Edelbrock etc are to choose
from. I know
A A of 600-plus streetableA horsepower motors in both. I have a
Windsor
A A with similar performance numbers in my Cobra Replica. It was
not hard
A A to make 550 horse in the Windsor and parts were very easy to
get
A A through and through.
A A My perception is that the Cleveland motor aftermarket support
is much
A A narrower, much more limited in choices for heads, intakes
availability
A A of good blocks, etc. Factory accessories, exhaustA systemsA etc
are of
A A no concern to me.
A A So...the obvious forthcoming question...if originality wasn't a
driving
A A concern...why go Cleveland?? Whats the motivation other thanA
purity? I
A A find that aA majority of PanteraA enthusiastsA aren't purists
anyway.
A A Are their other fitment concernsA I'm not aware of?
A A Thanks for your thoughts..
A A Cullen
A A .
References
A A 1.
[2][3]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
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A A 2. [7]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
A A 3. mailto:[8]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A 4. [9]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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4. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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-------------- next part --------------
If I was going to spend a lot on an entirely new engine, I'd go with
after market aluminum Cleveland heads. I think you save about 25
pounds per head (50 total), and they look cool.
I think you may be a bit limited on intake manifolds if you build a 9.5
deck Clevor, there are single plane, air gap, race manifolds made for
seriously high RPM, but there may not be a lot more. I assume Dan
Jones would be the expert on that. If you build a 9.2 deck Clevor, I
think you are limited to race blocks, which depending on the HP you
want, may be a good thing, but be careful that you don't get a dry sump
only block unless you really want that. I think the iron 9.2 deck race
blocks are about 200 pound (break even with aluminum heads and lower
the CG), aluminum blocks are around 100 pounds.
Ken
__________________________________________________________________
From: Cullen McCann <cmccann1972 at gmail.com>
To: MyCars <mycars at comcast.net>
Cc: DeTomaso Forum <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2015 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Windsor or Cleveland question..
Id love to know more about it! I am familiar with the term, but don't
know enough about the pros and cons. Id like to avoid special
machining
or
On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:03 AM, MyCars <[1][1]mycars at comcast.net>
wrote:
A A What about taking the best of both worlds and going with the
Clevor
A A option. (Windsor block mated to the massive Cleveland heads)
A A On 9/2/2015 8:36 AM, Cullen McCann wrote:
A A Dear Forum,
A A I'm sure this question has been discussed more than once in
the
past,
A A but I cant readily find it and have only been intermittently
involved
A A with the Pantera following over the years.
A A If I get my facts wrong, forgive me. Some is based on research
and some
A A based on perception.
A A 351 Cleveland or Windsor?
A A I need to build a motor for my car anyway. I do not have the
original
A A engine or anyA engine for it at this time. I have had several
351w
A A motors over the years. I understand the following criteria to
be true.
A A Both motors displace the same number, approximately, of cubic
inches.
A A Both have the same bellhousing bolt pattern. Both have the
same
motor
A A mount locations. The Windsor is slightly narrower, leaving
A A theoretically more room for headers, fuel tanks, etc on either
side.
A A (?) length and height appear negligibly different.A
A A The Windsor is lighter in pounds. According to a few online
sources:
A A A
A
A
[1][1][2][2]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
A A ....theA WindsorAA appears to be about 25A lbs lighter,A
depending on
A A source and configuration.A Not a huge benefit, but certainly
not a
A A drawback . The aftermarket support forA WindsorA family
engines
appears
A A significantly larger...A everyA 289-302-351w cylinder headA
isA
an
A A option.A Many different manufacturers and models fromA
Trickflow,
A A Brodix, AFR, Ford motorsport,A Edelbrock etc are to choose
from. I know
A A of 600-plus streetableA horsepower motors in both. I have a
Windsor
A A with similar performance numbers in my Cobra Replica. It was
not hard
A A to make 550 horse in the Windsor and parts were very easy to
get
A A through and through.
A A My perception is that the Cleveland motor aftermarket support
is much
A A narrower, much more limited in choices for heads, intakes
availability
A A of good blocks, etc. Factory accessories, exhaustA systemsA
etc
are of
A A no concern to me.
A A So...the obvious forthcoming question...if originality wasn't
a
driving
A A concern...why go Cleveland?? Whats the motivation other thanA
purity? I
A A find that aA majority of PanteraA enthusiastsA aren't purists
anyway.
A A Are their other fitment concernsA I'm not aware of?
A A Thanks for your thoughts..
A A Cullen
A A .
References
A A 1.
[2][3][3]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
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To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
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References
A A 1.
[6][6]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
A A 2.
[7][7]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
A A 3. mailto:[8][8]DeTomaso at poca.com
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2. [13]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
3. [14]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
4. mailto:[15]DeTomaso at poca.com
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6. [17]http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/EngineDimensions.html
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