[DeTomaso] IR FI system

Thu Oct 29 09:30:14 EDT 2015

>Apparently this coolant ports are configured so that they would align when using 3V style head on Windsor block....not sure but does not matter in my case.

Must be a feature peculiar to the ProComp head. 

>Manifolds are apparently configured to be a direct bolt for Webber IDA carburetors and bore size on top is 50mm. 

Well from the pictures it certainly does not look like this could be the case. SBF cylinders are 4.375" spacing. Those runners look like they are all evenly spaced on those centers. Weber IDAs barrel centerline is wider than that and that’s why the center two runners are always closer together on SBF IDA intakes. The angle of the hole pattern on IDAs is not 45 degrees so I don’t see how the bolt holes could align even if they were on the correct centers.

>If you like, once I get them, I can send you much more detailed measurements so you could decide if it is worth for you to get a pair.

That would be great. Thank you.

>They told me that manifolds alone without other components would be $US 500 including shipping.

I’ll wait for more details but that could be workable depending upon mounting dimensions.

>As for choosing right injectors, is there a good place to look up how to calculate proper size? What types have you been using in your systems?

You start with target HP and an assumed Volumetric Efficiency (which is pretty much the same for most all street engines) and derive the BSFC. The formulas will kick out an injector size in LB/hr or cc/min. You want to be less than 80% duty cycle so injector capacity is increased accordingly. If you select too large of an injector it can be difficult to achieve small pulse width at idle. If you search "fuel injector sizing" you will get many hits. There are so many sources for injectors but for IR I would suggest you buy from a source that measures and flow matches them. This is pretty common place these days. The required impedance of the injector can be dictated by your ECU and drivers. Most ECUs manuals contain all this information so I’d start there. The manuals are often available for free download online.

Best,
Kelly

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Stroj" <npdrs at maui.net>
To: coffield at mchsi.com, detomaso at poca.com
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 1:16:23 AM
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] IR FI system

Hi Kelly,

Thanks a lot for detailed comments!

Here are few answers to your comments that I already got from them:

"You should figure on pinning them in place with a pair of dowels on each head."
Apparently this feature is already included as speedmaster guy told me they are two pins on the manifolds in order to make them index same place every time, so I would need to drill a shallow indexing holes on the head face.

"That’s an odd position for the coolant port(s) for a 335 series intake."
My heads exit coolant to the front, so they just recommended to me to grind this section off.  
Apparently this coolant ports are configured so that they would align when using 3V style head on Windsor block....not sure but does not matter in my case. 

"The ports look more like what people are fond of calling 3V ports (somewhere between 2V & 4V ala and popularized by CHI) than 2V ports to me."
Yes, this is correct, they are apparently made to fit their version of 3V heads (which I guess would have same port size/location as CHI 3V heads).
Here are photos they sent me with ports measurements (see photos); they are 40mm x 53.5mm. Ports on my C3 heads are 39x51.5, so I hope should be close enough to make them fit.

I will probably go ahead and get this system; even if throttle bodies are not very good I could get a different ones down the road or even possibly go with those EMPI 51 IDA carburetors (they are supposedly enlarged copy of Webber IDA 48's) http://www.carbsdirect.com/New-EMPI-Carburetor-p/47-1050-0.htm 
Manifolds are apparently configured to be a direct bolt for Webber IDA carburetors and bore size on top is 50mm. 

If you like, once I get them, I can send you much more detailed measurements so you could decide if it is worth for you to get a pair.
They told me that manifolds alone without other components would be $US 500 including shipping.

As for choosing right injectors, is there a good place to look up how to calculate proper size?
What types have you been using in your systems?

All the best, Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: coffield at mchsi.com [mailto:coffield at mchsi.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 3:51 AM
To: detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] IR FI system

Observations ProComp IR FI Pictures--Also see link for picture.

http://i398.photobucket.com/albums/pp62/kcoffield/Annotated%20ProComp%20IR_zpseib5yzxb.jpg

First, I will tell you from experience there are several things to be aware of regarding 3-piece IR intakes. They are versatile but can be difficult to make seat properly on the head because the valley pan is typically not very rigid and can allow the right and left castings to shift/rock a bit t when they are tightened to the head. This can alter linkage settings. They also tend to slide down the head when you tighten them and the slotted holes on the ProComp intake will aggravate this tendency. You should figure on pinning them in place with a pair of dowels on each head. In my view this isn’t that big of a deal just as long as you are aware of and address it properly. Slotted holes work pretty good for synching down a one piece intake or aligning it to different port heights. CHI does this on their intakes and I suspect ProComp lifted this feature from their practice. You need to use liquid sealer between the valley pan and individual cast intake pieces or it will leak oil profusely.

That’s an odd position for the coolant port(s) for a 335 series intake. It’s way higher than the traditionally recommended location for 335 series heads and probably would just catch the top of the typical Windsor head coolant port. I’m not even sure it will hit the water jacket properly for a 335 series head. If you choose to take coolant from that height and you modify a C3 or any 335 series head to accommodate it, it won’t align with any other 335 series intake coolant port location that I know of (there are several 335 series high port head intakes with water necks). Of course this moot issue on 351c-no coolant port there and coolant can just as easily be removed from the front of the head.  You might also expect some sealing problems on those ProComp coolant ports as the outboard most mounting boss for 5/16-18 bolt is not present as it is on 335 series heads. 

This is the typical puzzling features you see on ProComp stuff……they put a Windsor water port location (sort of?) on an intake that has port positions and mounting bosses for a 335 series head??....not Windsor. ?? I note the intake also has bosses on each runner for vacuum and injector ports which are useful. It’s interesting too because the TBs appear to be available with and without injector ports so one could potentiallyrun 2 injectors per runner if needed.

Whether or not that piece can be properly fit to C3 heads will depend upon where the mounting holes were located in respect to the ports and where the ports are located on the intake face. The ports look more like what people are fond of calling 3V ports (somewhere between 2V & 4V ala and popularized by CHI) than 2V ports to me. 2V ports a biased off the center lines compared to most 4V and high port heads. It appears the port size may be pretty close to the typical C3s and the intake face has quite a bit of stock under it. Whether it’s tall enough to span from the bottom of your head to top of your intake port in uncertain. It will need to be at least 3 ¼” from base to port roof and probably 3 ½” depending upon the porting on the C3 head. If not, expect to perform some welding, grinding and some surgery. 

Although most of the mounting holes on the ProComp intake are slotted, the two holes between the center two runners (for 5/16-18 bolts on 335 series head) on the ProComp intake don’t appear to be slotted (much?). This will make both the intake and ports land at a given height even though the other holes are slotted. These may need to be slotted more to adjust the intake position on a head if there is enough boss material to do so.

It’s an interesting hodge-podge of Windsor and Cleveland/335 series features. It’s either a case of trying to make it adaptable to all those combos or designed by those who aren’t familiar with the nuance differences between the two series of heads. I’ve handled a couple of their other intakes. Although I didn’t hold them in high regard for performance potential due to their design features, the casting quality was actually pretty good with decent temper. I never tried to weld on any of them though so can’t comment on the alloy suitability for such.
If you decide to pursue purchasing the system, price dependent, I may be interested in the two intake castings if they would sell them separately so I could have a closer look. I’ve certainly done a lot more for a lot less when it comes to modifying intakes for custom combinations.

As far as the throttle bodies and rest of the hardware on that system, I’ve never had my hands on those so I can’t really comment on them other than to say there are a lot of hardware subtleties that make for good performance and reliability on an IR system.

Best,
Kelly

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Stroj" <npdrs at maui.net>
To: detomaso at poca.com
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 9:02:09 PM
Subject: [DeTomaso] IR FI system

Hi, I was wondering if there is someone that tried this system?

http://store.speedmaster79.com/p-4567-ford-302-351c-cleveland-down-draft-efi
-stack-intake-manifold-system-complete-satin.aspx

I realize it comes without ECU and injectors, but looks really nice and seems very well priced.
It is a bit confusing as at one point they state throttle bodies to be 52mm and on other point they say bore is 50mm.
I wonder if it could be port matched to my Yates C3 heads.....

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