[DeTomaso] IR FI system
Cullen McCann
cmccann1972 at gmail.com
Thu Oct 22 17:51:17 EDT 2015
Robert,
There is an EFI Individual Throttle Bodies group in Australia. I seems like
a guy named John Cain built them then stopped. Now a group called
Aussiespeed picked up some similar design stuff. I wonder if they
affiliated.
Here is one group that makes the same systems... gulp... try 5 grand for
the Cleveland system:
https://www.efihardware.com/products/c393/Ford-8-Cylinder-Throttle-Body-Kits
I am not an engine builder but I've asked the same questions about the size
of the throttle bodies that you have asked. I have been told that by
principal, they should flow similar to the same motor as would weber carbs
(48mm IDA) so research for that motor should yield similar performance
potential with the EFI version of the downdraft ITB's we are discussing
here. If anything they should OUTFLOW the Webers slightly on volume since
they are 50mm instead of 48 and there is no venturi in the center to reduce
airflow.
That being said, I've heard that these ITB motors tend to perform best
as high RPM motors, and tend to struggle for street ability to get good
idle quality. I have heard throttle response can be phenomenal, almost to a
fault. If you do the math on the total volume of airflow potential with 8
cylindrical stacks of 50mm diameter, the airflow seems hugely over sized
for just about any motor. We all know the consequences of over carbureting.
So I think that's something to consider. I could do the math on pi x radius
of 50mm squared x height of stack x 8 bores and compare that to a 750 cfm
carb, but I don't have the time right now. I know its more than the
equivalent carb. Honestly I don't know how Webers get away with it, but I
know they can run great.
Again, when I hear/ read real engine building masters like Dan Jones
discuss it, I'm humbled, so take it with a grain of salt and I could be
dead wrong. Just what Ive heard when sitting around the table. I do believe
is hard to answer the question you have asked. Given no details about head
properties... valve and port flow, compression and cam profile...etc. high
horsepower numbers alone wont tell most engine builders enough about it to
speculate if one induction system is advantageous over another...so I doubt
you'll get much good intel...but I can appreciate the way you are thinking.
Please keep me in the loop about what you are doing, because I'm interested
in the downdraft EFI systems.
I like the ITB EFI system so much.... SO MUCH ...I would be prepared to
build an entire engine with the needed characteristics JUST to justify its
use...even more than being motivated by driving characteristics. I know...
that sounds crazy...but its JUST that cool. I would take a driving
COMPROMISE to have them. ( until I change my mind)
Cullen
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I did talk to their technical guy; it is actually a company based in
> Australia.
> My understanding is that they somehow use Procomp name or sales network to
> sale their parts in US.
>
> Anyway, down to the actual part, I am wondering how big is the risk?
> According to the tech guy in Australia the 351C manifold is made to fit 2V
> heads and would have enough material to port it to fit 4v or my Yates C3
> heads.
>
> Although 351C version is $200 more than 351W system I would go with 351C
> as it is already split to fit onto 9.2 deck and also it looks like a nicer
> intake casting with longer, smoother channels.
> Other nice point is that this intake apparently fits Webber IDA bolt
> pattern, so, down the road one could change throttle bodies to ones that
> Readline makes or TWM ones.
>
> The only throttle body size they offer at the moment is 50mm; would this
> be adequate for 416ci engine that made 675Hp at 6500rpm on engine dyno with
> Holley 850 carburetor on single plane high intake.
> What would be suggested injectors; looking at what Holley recommends in
> their systems it seems that something between 48# and 66# would be good
> choice?
>
> I will keep you updated in case I get this system.
>
> Robert
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cullen McCann [mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 6:58 AM
> To: Daniel C Jones
> Cc: POCA list
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] IR FI system
>
> I was also looking at the same system for the 351W. The price is very
> appealing, considering that most other downdraft EFI systems are 3500 bucks
> plus management. I know you "get what you pay for" but its hard not to try
> it, and the risk seems.. "low" in a way. I certainly wouldn't keep from
> buying it simply because "anything that cheap must be a piece of junk". its
> not ALWAYS true.
>
> The 351C system shown in your link is 1365.00. Consider the 351W system
> on ebay, distributed by speedmaster is less than 1100.00. But obviously the
> vertical stacks might require cutting the deck. I like it when they stick
> out of the deck, rain and all. Super sex appeal, even if they do run like
> crap.
>
> here is a link:
> 351W speedmaster system on ebay
> <
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-351W-Windsor-Down-Draft-EFI-Stack-Intake-Manifold-System-Complete-Satin-/201449143138?hash=item2ee74dfb62:g:uncAAOSw14xWHvjZ&vxp=mtr
> >
>
> or this one if that doesn't work:
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-351W-Windsor-Down-Draft-EFI-Stack-Intake-Manifold-System-Complete-Satin-/201449143138?hash=item2ee74dfb62:g:uncAAOSw14xWHvjZ&vxp=mtr
>
> Also, I know most people don't care or believe the ebay system holds any
> "merit" or credibility for customer confidence, but in a way, I disagree.
> Speedmaster currently has 99.6% positive feedback on ebay with over 53
> THOUSAND transactions. that means... specifically, that 53,600 people
> bought something from them on eBay and had positive things to say.
>
> That being said.... I'm sure they might be giving their "feedback" before
> installing the system or something...but contrary to what some people
> think, you cannot "fake" the feedback rating on ebay. If you could, I would
> have done it by now. Either people are positive about your sales reputation
> or they aren't. period. (I've been a power seller on ebay for 15
> years....and this isn't a scam) EBay's customer service sucks.... no doubt
> about it, but the transaction feedback rating system is real and it works
> like its supposed to.
>
> In closing, I put 100 percent confidence into what Dan says about his
> experience dyno tuning procomp products. I have a family member who build
> street rods and he says the same thing. He also says that it depends on
> what you buy. They are hit and miss. Some parts seem to work great but some
> are cheap and dont perform or install as expected. But Ill be honest... Id
> be willing to try it if I thought I could save 4 grand or something and
> have that sexy system. Maybe your motor makes 500 horse instead of
> 550...and you saved 4 grand. Maybe you pick a different management system
> and keep the speedmaster hardware. Its just a matter of weighing options
> and your budget, IMO.
>
> I'll be buying one of the Windsor systems in the next year or so...I'll
> let you know if I get anywhere with it.
>
> Cullen
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Daniel C Jones <
> daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > > I realize it comes without ECU and injectors, but looks really nice
> > and seems very well priced.
> > Speedmaster is the company formerly known as Procomp.A Procomp earned
> > such a bad reputation they had to rename the company.A We dyno tested
> > the Procomp copy of the CHI Cleveland heads and they were 50 HP down
> on
> > a 351C to the real CHI heads and 20 HP down to the OEM cast iron
> > Cleveland heads.
> > Dan Jones
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at poca.com http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> > use the links above.
> >
> >
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
Robert,
There is an EFI Individual Throttle Bodies group in Australia. I seems
like a guy named John Cain built them then stopped.A Now a group called
Aussiespeed picked up some similar designA stuff.A I wonder if they
affiliated.
Here is one group that makes the same systems... gulp... try 5 grand
for the Cleveland system:
[1]https://www.efihardware.com/products/c393/Ford-8-Cylinder-Throttle-B
ody-Kits
I am not an engine builder but I've asked the same questions about the
size of the throttle bodies that you have asked. I have been told that
by principal, they should flow similar to the same motor as would weber
carbs (48mm IDA) so research for that motor should yield similar
performance potential with the EFI version of the downdraft ITB's we
are discussing here. If anything they should OUTFLOW the Webers
slightly on volume since they are 50mm instead of 48 and there is no
venturi in the center to reduce airflow.
That being said, I've heard that these ITB motors tend to perform best
asA high RPM motors, and tend to struggle for street ability to get
good idle quality. I have heard throttle response can be phenomenal,
almost to a fault. If you do the math on the total volume of airflow
potential with 8 cylindrical stacks of 50mm diameter, the airflow seems
hugely over sized for just about any motor. We all know the
consequences of over carbureting. So I think that's something to
consider. I could do the math on pi x radius of 50mm squared x height
of stack x 8 bores and compare that to a 750 cfm carb, but I don't have
the time right now. I know its more than the equivalent carb. Honestly
I don't know how Webers get away with it, but I know they can run
great.
Again, when I hear/ read real engine building masters like Dan Jones
discuss it, I'm humbled, so take it with a grain of salt and I could be
dead wrong. Just what Ive heard when sitting around the table. I do
believe is hard to answer the question you have asked. Given no details
about head properties... valve and port flow, compression and cam
profile...etc. high horsepower numbers alone wont tell most engine
builders enough about it to speculate if one induction system is
advantageous over another...so I doubt you'll get much good intel...but
I can appreciate the way you are thinking. Please keep me in the loop
about what you are doing, because I'm interested in the downdraft EFI
systems.
I like the ITB EFI system so much.... SO MUCH ...I would be prepared to
build an entire engine with the needed characteristics JUST to justify
its use...even more than being motivated by driving characteristics. I
know... that sounds crazy...but its JUST that cool. I would take a
driving COMPROMISE to have them. ( until I change my mind)
Cullen
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Robert Stroj <[2]npdrs at maui.net>
wrote:
Hi,
I did talk to their technical guy; it is actually a company based in
Australia.
My understanding is that they somehow use Procomp name or sales
network to sale their parts in US.
Anyway, down to the actual part, I am wondering how big is the risk?
According to the tech guy in Australia the 351C manifold is made to
fit 2V heads and would have enough material to port it to fit 4v or
my Yates C3 heads.
Although 351C version is $200 more than 351W system I would go with
351C as it is already split to fit onto 9.2 deck and also it looks
like a nicer intake casting with longer, smoother channels.
Other nice point is that this intake apparently fits Webber IDA bolt
pattern, so, down the road one could change throttle bodies to ones
that Readline makes or TWM ones.
The only throttle body size they offer at the moment is 50mm; would
this be adequate for 416ci engine that made 675Hp at 6500rpm on
engine dyno with Holley 850 carburetor on single plane high intake.
What would be suggested injectors; looking at what Holley recommends
in their systems it seems that something between 48# and 66# would
be good choice?
I will keep you updated in case I get this system.
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Cullen McCann [mailto:[3]cmccann1972 at gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 6:58 AM
To: Daniel C Jones
Cc: POCA list
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] IR FI system
I was also looking at the same system for the 351W. The price is
very appealing, considering that most other downdraft EFI systems
are 3500 bucks plus management. I know you "get what you pay for"
but its hard not to try it, and the risk seems.. "low" in a way. I
certainly wouldn't keep from buying it simply because "anything that
cheap must be a piece of junk". its not ALWAYS true.
The 351C system shown in your link is 1365.00.A Consider the 351W
system on ebay, distributed by speedmaster is less than 1100.00. But
obviously the vertical stacks might require cutting the deck. I like
it when they stick out of the deck, rain and all. Super sex appeal,
even if they do run like crap.
here is a link:
351W speedmaster system on ebay
<[4]http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-351W-Windsor-Down-Draft-EFI-Stack-I
ntake-Manifold-System-Complete-Satin-/201449143138?hash=item2ee74dfb
62:g:uncAAOSw14xWHvjZ&vxp=mtr>
or this one if that doesn't work:
[5]http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-351W-Windsor-Down-Draft-EFI-Stack-Intak
e-Manifold-System-Complete-Satin-/201449143138?hash=item2ee74dfb62:g:un
cAAOSw14xWHvjZ&vxp=mtr
Also, I know most people don't care or believe the ebay system holds
any "merit" or credibility for customer confidence, but in a way, I
disagree.
Speedmaster currently has 99.6% positive feedback on ebay with over 53
THOUSAND transactions. that means... specifically, that 53,600 people
bought something from them on eBay and had positive things to say.
That being said.... I'm sure they might be giving their "feedback"
before installing the system or something...but contrary to what some
people think, you cannot "fake" the feedback rating on ebay. If you
could, I would have done it by now. Either people are positive about
your sales reputation or they aren't. period. (I've been a power seller
on ebay for 15 years....and this isn't a scam) EBay's customer service
sucks.... no doubt about it, but the transaction feedback rating system
is real and it works like its supposed to.
In closing, I put 100 percent confidence into what Dan says about his
experience dyno tuning procomp products. I have a family member who
build street rods and he says the same thing. He also says that it
depends on what you buy. They are hit and miss. Some parts seem to work
great but some are cheap and dont perform or install as expected. But
Ill be honest... Id be willing to try it if I thought I could save 4
grand or something and have that sexy system. Maybe your motor makes
500 horse instead of 550...and you saved 4 grand. Maybe you pick a
different management system and keep the speedmaster hardware. Its just
a matter of weighing options and your budget, IMO.
I'll be buying one of the Windsor systems in the next year or so...I'll
let you know if I get anywhere with it.
Cullen
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Daniel C Jones
<[6]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
wrote:
>A A > I realize it comes without ECU and injectors, but looks really
nice
>A A and seems very well priced.
>A A Speedmaster is the company formerly known as Procomp.AA Procomp
earned
>A A such a bad reputation they had to rename the company.AA We dyno
tested
>A A the Procomp copy of the CHI Cleveland heads and they were 50 HP
down on
>A A a 351C to the real CHI heads and 20 HP down to the OEM cast iron
>A A Cleveland heads.
>A A Dan Jones
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> [7]DeTomaso at poca.com
[8]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
>
>
References
1. https://www.efihardware.com/products/c393/Ford-8-Cylinder-Throttle-Body-Kits
2. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
3. mailto:cmccann1972 at gmail.com
4. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-351W-Windsor-Down-Draft-EFI-Stack-Intake-Manifold-System-Complete-Satin-/201449143138?hash=item2ee74dfb62:g:uncAAOSw14xWHvjZ&vxp=mtr
5. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-351W-Windsor-Down-Draft-EFI-Stack-Intake-Manifold-System-Complete-Satin-/201449143138?hash=item2ee74dfb62:g:uncAAOSw14xWHvjZ&vxp=mtr
6. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
7. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
8. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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