[DeTomaso] Techno question: a fine mess--update III
Will Kooiman
will.kooiman at gmail.com
Sun Oct 11 19:30:28 EDT 2015
I think the squealing will go away if you take it back to Houston. It's
homesick.
--
Will
From: Bill Moore <bill at incendium.com>
Date: Sunday, October 11, 2015 6:05 PM
To: Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net>, Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Cc: 'De Tomaso List' <detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: a fine mess--update III
That's the way, drive it till it breaks, then fix it and drive it. Go fast
and take chances.
Cheers,
Bill Moore
Incendium Supply
Calgary
-------- Original message --------
From: Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net>
Date: 2015-10-11 4:02 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: 'Will Kooiman' <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Cc: 'De Tomaso List' <detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: a fine mess--update III
Dear Will,
The Strange Case of the Carburetor That Squealed in the Night
sounds like an automotive title by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's mechanical
brother.
I don't think it is the carb, but that is an easy thing to
check.
The last thing I touched before the sound started was: mostly
everything. Last year I pulled the engine, ZF and gas tank out in
preparation for the Houston Rally. The engine started out needing only a
new rear main seal. As these things spin out of hand, it ended up with new
rear main seal, main bearing check, new lifters, front of the engine off,
new rocker studs and new push rods, new valve cover fittings for the PCV and
oil fill. After re-assembly, it was dyno tested. No problems. After
re-installation, no noise that I recollect. Then with a little road
testing, the five hundred mile blast dodging rain down to Houston; the TWS
event without problems and the final Rain Run back home again dodging the
rain. Since May it has been driven on the weekends a few times and I have
noticed the squeal/chirping after the engine warms up whilst sitting at stop
lights or idling into the garage.
At this point, I have removed the balancer bolt and found a
little oil behind the giant washer, which does not concern me. I can see
the anti seize from the recent installation. I dosed the ARP bolt and
balancer with ARP assembly lube and re-torqued to ninety foot-pounds. I
re-installed the crank pulley with some assembly lube on the stainless steel
bolts and really tightened them up. Likewise on the water pump pulley. I
re-installed the belts and tightened everything up. The test drive showed
that the noise seemed a bit less prominent, but it was not silent.
At this point, I am confident that I am not overlooking
something major. There is a road trip planned for next week and I have now
covered my bases. Finally, I have a spare engine on the stand ready to leap
into the breach should anything happen. I think that this problematic
noise mystery will be solved in the fullness of time.
Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
-----Original Message-----
From: Will Kooiman [mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 1:05 PM
To: Asa Jay Laughton; Charles Engles
Cc: MikeLDrew at aol.com; 'De Tomaso List'
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: a fine mess--update II
I don¹t see how a balancer could cause a howling or a squeal.
I had a weird squeal once, and it turned out to be the carburetor gasket.
There was a leak under the carburetor, and the gasket was vibrating like a
reed in a flute. It sounded like it was coming from the timing chain. I
tore the front of the engine apart, changed the timing chain, belts, fuel
pump, etc. I didn¹t find the problem until I was feeling around under the
carburetor while the engine was running. I could feel the gasket vibrating,
and if I touched it, the sound stopped.
What was the last thing changed before the sound started?
On 10/11/15, 1:03 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Asa Jay Laughton"
<detomaso-bounces at poca.com on behalf of asajay at asajay.com> wrote:
> I'm not liking where this is going. I'd remove the balancer and run
> it. You might get a little oil splash past the seal but I honestly
> don't see how it could be the balancer. I'm beginning to fear its more
> dastardly, like a main or rod bearing or thrust bearing on the cam.
> Trouble is I don't think you can get the balancer off.
> Asa
> Sent using Jedi Mind Tricks
>
> Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
> Dear Bill and Asa, et al,
> Test drive without the AC belt still showed noise. While
> the engine was still warm, I removed the alternator belt. To my
> surprise, the chirpy noise is still there. The garden hose stethoscope
> seemed to show that it was maximal within the bowl of the crank
> pulley. Hmmm??? No noise from the oil pan nor water pump
> (obviously).
> Next, I removed the crank pulley and the noise is still
> chirping away. I checked again that the balancer isn't hitting
> anything on its backside and a wire hanger feeler shows nothing between
> the back of the balancer and the front cover or oil pan.
> Next, I could only imagine that I had somehow not torque the
> balancer bolt well and that it was loose. Sorry, it is tight and I am
> sure that it has a dose of anti seize and the correct torque.
> The balancer is a BHJ and is about nine years old with about
> 10k miles. It looks good. It was recently out and reinstalled last
> year before the Houston Rally. No noise was noticed until afterwards
> while driving "normally" in town, etc. Sounded like a belt, but it
> isn't all belt noise.
> I suppose the next step would be to loosen the balancer
> bolt, again apply a touch of antiseize if it looks like it needs it and
> then retorque.
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bill gaino [mailto:gaino at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 9:09 AM
> To: Charles Engles
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: a fine mess--update
> Charles, I went thhrough this with a corvette it turned out to be a
> loose harmonic balancer bolt. Big one that goes in the end of crank.
> Bill 1362
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/slickpaintcom/129049637149634?ref=ts&fre
> f=ts
> If you want it slick. www.slickpaint.com like us on facebook
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net>
> >Sent: Oct 10, 2015 9:30 PM
> >To: detomaso at poca.com
> >Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: a fine mess--update
> >
> >Dear Forum,
> >
> >
> > It is still a fine mess. The gremlins are well
> entrenched.
> >At this point, I have:
> >
> >1) ascertained that the balancer isn't hitting the block or pan
> >
> >2) been unable to localize precisely the noise source despite the
> >mechanic's stethoscope or the garden hose stethoscope (it actually
> >works a little better in this instance, but still not a success). It
> >is coming from the front of the engine-belt area.
> >
> >3) replaced the alternator: no change and now the ammeter needle
> >bounces
> >
> >4) ascertained that I do have an electronic voltage regulator from
> >Motorcraft
> >
> >5) replaced both belts: no change other than a slight decrease in
> >loudness and slightly different quality to the noise
> >
> >6) replaced the idler pulley: no change. Sigh. The old pulley does
> feel
> >like the bearing is starting to go out compared to the smoothness of
> >the replacement, but still no noise silencing with the change.
> >
> >
> > I am perturbed. I have removed the new AC belt and I will
> test
> >again tomorrow to see if I have finally localized the noise maker. I
> >am thinking about trying some of the belt treatments for squeaking
> >since I have replaced *everything* at this point.
> >
> >
> > With apologies to Mr. Friedman's famous quote: " Sadder,
> older,
> >wiser, I go now, seeking through faith and reason combined the answer
> >to this baffling pageant which is the Pantera and the small by play,
> >which is my amateur wrenching."
> >
> >
> > Philosophically yours, Chuck Engles
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> >DeTomaso at poca.com http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> >To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
>_______________________________________________
>
>Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
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>
>To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>use the links above.
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-------------- next part --------------
I think the squealing will go away if you take it back to Houston.
It's homesick.
--
Will
From: Bill Moore <[1]bill at incendium.com>
Date: Sunday, October 11, 2015 6:05 PM
To: Charles Engles <[2]cengles at cox.net>, Will Kooiman
<[3]will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Cc: 'De Tomaso List' <[4]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: a fine mess--update III
That's the way, drive it till it breaks, then fix it and drive it. Go
fast and take chances.
Cheers,
Bill Moore
Incendium Supply
Calgary
-------- Original message --------
From: Charles Engles <[5]cengles at cox.net>
Date: 2015-10-11 4:02 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: 'Will Kooiman' <[6]will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Cc: 'De Tomaso List' <[7]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: a fine mess--update III
Dear Will,
The Strange Case of the Carburetor That Squealed in the
Night
sounds like an automotive title by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's mechanical
brother.
I don't think it is the carb, but that is an easy thing to
check.
The last thing I touched before the sound started was:
mostly
everything. Last year I pulled the engine, ZF and gas tank out in
preparation for the Houston Rally. The engine started out needing only
a
new rear main seal. As these things spin out of hand, it ended up
with new
rear main seal, main bearing check, new lifters, front of the engine
off,
new rocker studs and new push rods, new valve cover fittings for the
PCV and
oil fill. After re-assembly, it was dyno tested. No problems. After
re-installation, no noise that I recollect. Then with a little road
testing, the five hundred mile blast dodging rain down to Houston; the
TWS
event without problems and the final Rain Run back home again dodging
the
rain. Since May it has been driven on the weekends a few times and I
have
noticed the squeal/chirping after the engine warms up whilst sitting at
stop
lights or idling into the garage.
At this point, I have removed the balancer bolt and found
a
little oil behind the giant washer, which does not concern me. I can
see
the anti seize from the recent installation. I dosed the ARP bolt and
balancer with ARP assembly lube and re-torqued to ninety foot-pounds. I
re-installed the crank pulley with some assembly lube on the stainless
steel
bolts and really tightened them up. Likewise on the water pump
pulley. I
re-installed the belts and tightened everything up. The test drive
showed
that the noise seemed a bit less prominent, but it was not silent.
At this point, I am confident that I am not overlooking
something major. There is a road trip planned for next week and I have
now
covered my bases. Finally, I have a spare engine on the stand ready to
leap
into the breach should anything happen. I think that this problematic
noise mystery will be solved in the fullness of time.
Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
-----Original Message-----
From: Will Kooiman [[8]mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 1:05 PM
To: Asa Jay Laughton; Charles Engles
Cc: [9]MikeLDrew at aol.com; 'De Tomaso List'
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: a fine mess--update II
I dont see how a balancer could cause a howling or a squeal.
I had a weird squeal once, and it turned out to be the carburetor
gasket.
There was a leak under the carburetor, and the gasket was vibrating
like a
reed in a flute. It sounded like it was coming from the timing chain.
I
tore the front of the engine apart, changed the timing chain, belts,
fuel
pump, etc. I didnt find the problem until I was feeling around under
the
carburetor while the engine was running. I could feel the gasket
vibrating,
and if I touched it, the sound stopped.
What was the last thing changed before the sound started?
On 10/11/15, 1:03 PM, "DeTomaso on behalf of Asa Jay Laughton"
<[10]detomaso-bounces at poca.com on behalf of [11]asajay at asajay.com>
wrote:
> I'm not liking where this is going. I'd remove the balancer and
run
> it. You might get a little oil splash past the seal but I honestly
> don't see how it could be the balancer. I'm beginning to fear its
more
> dastardly, like a main or rod bearing or thrust bearing on the cam.
> Trouble is I don't think you can get the balancer off.
> Asa
> Sent using Jedi Mind Tricks
>
> Charles Engles <[12]cengles at cox.net> wrote:
> Dear Bill and Asa, et al,
> Test drive without the AC belt still showed noise.
While
> the engine was still warm, I removed the alternator belt. To my
> surprise, the chirpy noise is still there. The garden hose
stethoscope
> seemed to show that it was maximal within the bowl of the crank
> pulley. Hmmm??? No noise from the oil pan nor water pump
> (obviously).
> Next, I removed the crank pulley and the noise is still
> chirping away. I checked again that the balancer isn't hitting
> anything on its backside and a wire hanger feeler shows nothing
between
> the back of the balancer and the front cover or oil pan.
> Next, I could only imagine that I had somehow not torque
the
> balancer bolt well and that it was loose. Sorry, it is tight and I
am
> sure that it has a dose of anti seize and the correct torque.
> The balancer is a BHJ and is about nine years old with
about
> 10k miles. It looks good. It was recently out and reinstalled
last
> year before the Houston Rally. No noise was noticed until
afterwards
> while driving "normally" in town, etc. Sounded like a belt, but
it
> isn't all belt noise.
> I suppose the next step would be to loosen the balancer
> bolt, again apply a touch of antiseize if it looks like it needs it
and
> then retorque.
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bill gaino [[13]mailto:gaino at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 9:09 AM
> To: Charles Engles
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: a fine mess--update
> Charles, I went thhrough this with a corvette it turned out to be a
> loose harmonic balancer bolt. Big one that goes in the end of
crank.
> Bill 1362
>
[14]https://www.facebook.com/pages/slickpaintcom/129049637149634?ref=ts
&fre
> f=ts
> If you want it slick. www.slickpaint.com like us on facebook
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Charles Engles <[15]cengles at cox.net>
> >Sent: Oct 10, 2015 9:30 PM
> >To: [16]detomaso at poca.com
> >Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Techno question: a fine mess--update
> >
> >Dear Forum,
> >
> >
> > It is still a fine mess. The gremlins are well
> entrenched.
> >At this point, I have:
> >
> >1) ascertained that the balancer isn't hitting the block or pan
> >
> >2) been unable to localize precisely the noise source despite the
> >mechanic's stethoscope or the garden hose stethoscope (it actually
> >works a little better in this instance, but still not a success).
It
> >is coming from the front of the engine-belt area.
> >
> >3) replaced the alternator: no change and now the ammeter needle
> >bounces
> >
> >4) ascertained that I do have an electronic voltage regulator from
> >Motorcraft
> >
> >5) replaced both belts: no change other than a slight decrease in
> >loudness and slightly different quality to the noise
> >
> >6) replaced the idler pulley: no change. Sigh. The old pulley
does
> feel
> >like the bearing is starting to go out compared to the smoothness
of
> >the replacement, but still no noise silencing with the change.
> >
> >
> > I am perturbed. I have removed the new AC belt and I will
> test
> >again tomorrow to see if I have finally localized the noise
maker. I
> >am thinking about trying some of the belt treatments for squeaking
> >since I have replaced *everything* at this point.
> >
> >
> > With apologies to Mr. Friedman's famous quote: " Sadder,
> older,
> >wiser, I go now, seeking through faith and reason combined the
answer
> >to this baffling pageant which is the Pantera and the small by
play,
> >which is my amateur wrenching."
> >
> >
> > Philosophically yours, Chuck Engles
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> >[17]DeTomaso at poca.com
[18]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> >To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.)
> use the links above.
>_______________________________________________
>
>Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
>[19]DeTomaso at poca.com
[20]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
>To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
>use the links above.
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References
1. mailto:bill at incendium.com
2. mailto:cengles at cox.net
3. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
5. mailto:cengles at cox.net
6. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
7. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
8. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
9. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
10. mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com
11. mailto:asajay at asajay.com
12. mailto:cengles at cox.net
13. mailto:gaino at earthlink.net
14. https://www.facebook.com/pages/slickpaintcom/129049637149634?ref=ts&fre
15. mailto:cengles at cox.net
16. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
19. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
20. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
21. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
22. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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