[DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?

Mon Mar 30 11:28:39 EDT 2015

>Wow... never had it happen before! Even with a dual disc clutch, I bolted everything up, lined up the bell housing and ZF and it just went 'plunk' and it was in!

The other benefit will be cleaner shifting and better synchro life compared to a poorly aligned pilot so for those concerned about how such things affect your ZF, synchro life should be of interest. I also think it makes the choice of pilot bearing a less critical issue. 

I suspect it is very much the minority that will suffer from such but it's a bummer to be the statistic.  I learned the value of this on other manual transmission cars years ago. Poor alignment acted like marginal synchro. I had (have) a 64 Vette with a Muncie 4-speed that I thought was acting up after a rebuild. A friend of mine asked if I had verified the pilot alignment and I said yah I used the alignment tool to install the clutch and he said, but did you put a dial on the crank it to check the bell housing run out....to which I replied, huhhh?  The car developed a rear main seal leak and while I was fixing that, I did measure the run out and sure enough....completely remedied the matter. Ever since then, I measure. You just can never be sure of what you're getting, especially with old and used parts. 

Take care,
K

----- Original Message -----
From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
To: coffield at mchsi.com
Cc: Panteras <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:50:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?

FWIW, I agree completely with Kelly.

First, I've used the needle bearing option for years and never had a
problem and will continue to do so.

What amazed me recently was when we were getting the new engine for 1921
ready to go, Tom Upton told me that we were going to redrill the bell
housing alignment pins.... Huh?

He has a really nice jig that you bolt up to the block and center on the
crankshaft.
(Apparently, this jig is no longer available and when it was, it was
expensive!)

Then you ream out the locating dowel pin holes and put in larger, stepped
ones.
OK, says I. That's cool, but what good does that do?
He said watch what happens when you take the motor home and install the ZF
on it.

Wow... never had it happen before!
Even with a dual disc clutch, I bolted everything up, lined up the bell
housing and ZF and it just went 'plunk' and it was in!
I was very impressed. Stood there in amazement.

EVERY time in the past, putting the ZF and bellhousing on has been a chore.
Usually fighting with it, using long studs to line it up, etc. etc.

Will do it again to the next engine I install!
Kirby

On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 6:55 PM, <coffield at mchsi.com> wrote:

> Whether its Oilite bronze, caged roller, or sealed ball bearing, it seems
> few people check the bell housing run out before installation. I’d contend
> the most important thing that can be done to assure proper pilot bearing
> operation and long life is to dial in the bell housing. I recently switched
> transaxles and the new ZF bell had .014” run out so I bought a couple
> offset dowel pins, mounted a dial on the crank, fiddled with it for a
> while, and was able to get it to the point where it indicated no worse than
> .003”TRO. Some manufactures say <.005” others <.010”.
>
> If you think about it, given their physical size and how many parts are
> interfacing, getting the bell and ZF input shaft centered compared to the
> clearance you would expect/desire between the journal and bearing of this
> size is really not that trivial. .005” per side is a lot of clearance for a
> bearing this size and chances are pretty good most bells that aren’t dialed
> are probably loading the input shaft/bearing on one side and leaving it
> unsupported without larger deflections on the other side….how much input
> shaft deflection is acceptable? .010-015” deflection isn’t a very
> comfortable thought to me.
>
> All the needle bearings pilots I’ve ever seen are caged. I think a sealed
> ball bearing is fine but you still have to have clearance between the input
> shaft and the inner race because you can’t have a win fit and be perfectly
> concentric. If you don’t, you’re loading the bearing at install and that
> can cause premature failure and or cook the grease out. Also, not all
> sealed ball bearings are created equal. Many ball bearings are just
> shielded not sealed and even so, even excursions to 6k-7krpm can be a lot
> for many sealed ball bearings packed with grease to handle.
>
> I had a caged roller in my car for the last 10 years and the ZF input
> shaft looked great. Big wheels, wide tires, hard launches. -I replaced it
> with the same.
>
> Best,
> Kelly
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Thomas <mbefthomas at comcast.net>
> To: 'Julian Kift' <julian_kift at hotmail.com>, 'De Tomaso List' <
> detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 12:55:16 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
>
> I've got a needle bearing in right now, but will be pulling the ZF next
> winter if the clutch chatter doesn't settle down.  Last poll had more
> leaning to the Oilite, so I thought I'd stir the waters once again.
>
>
>
> Mike Thomas
>
> Pres., Panteras Northwest
>
> Yellow '74 #6328
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Julian Kift [mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2015 8:56 AM
> To: Mike Thomas; De Tomaso List
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
>
>
>
> I believe Marlin and some of the vendors sell them.
>
> I was always an advocate of the oilite until I got my GT5; Coz had the ZF
> rebuilt and it was fresh back from Dennis Quella, in fact Coz and I
> installed it when I picked up the car from him and I then proceeded to
> drive
> from Phoenix to Reno non stop (other than gas). The car wasn't shifting
> quite correctly and we got Dennis to drive the car at the Pahrump track
> during the Fun Rally, he agreed it was still not shifting correctly. I then
> pulled the ZF and sent it back, Dennis went back though it and could find
> nothing wrong, however he sent it back with a needle bearing and said try
> that for the pilot. Low and behold that fixed all my problems, so now I'm a
> convert to the needle bearing and never had an issue since.
>
> It would be interesting to see if Lloyd Butfoy's opinion aligns with Dennis
> on the needle bearing vs. oilite
>
> Julian
> YMMV
>
>
> > From: mbefthomas at comcast.net <mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net>
> > To: detomaso at poca.com <mailto:detomaso at poca.com>
> > Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 08:19:31 -0700
> > Subject: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
> >
> > Is it Marlin Jack that sells the Oilite bronze idler bushings?
> >
> > Mike Thomas
> > Pres., Panteras Northwest
> > Yellow '74 #6328
> >
> >
> >
> >
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