[DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
Asa Jay Laughton
asajay at asajay.com
Mon Mar 30 09:32:07 EDT 2015
Thanks Kelly, a well thought out response in terms of today vs. 40 years
ago. Something to think about.
Asa Jay
Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
& Shelley Marie
Spokane, WA
******************************
http://www.racingagainstautism.com
http://www.teampanteraracing.com
http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
On 3/29/2015 8:16 PM, coffield at mchsi.com wrote:
>> However, how much time did DeTomaso or Ford spend on that when building each car? In an assembly plant, I have to wonder as each engine is completed and each transmission is completed, was any time spent on matching them up in this way? Or was an engine taken from line one and a transmission from line two, bolt them together, make sure it turns and drop it in the car. And they did this how many times a day? (at Ford)
> All true. Same could be said about every aspect of engine building…just bolt it together…if it was good enough for Ford, should be good enough for us…right? Time marches on and standards and expectations change. Conventional wisdom would say Ford engineers did their tolerance stack up analysis and relied on their quality processes. All one needs to do is ask good engine builders what level of OE part variation they see every day in their builds and whether one is comfortable with being relegated to the possible outcomes of those statistics given the investment of $ and time. It’s also worth keeping in mind what the standard was for reliability and power in that era…..when a 100k mile car was something to truly behold. Also 250HP smog engines versus modified 500HP+ mills….different ball game.
>
> DeTom didn’t exactly set the quality standard in this regard with the intro of the Pantera. A different approach may have yielded a different outcome.
>
> For the time it takes to put a dial on the crank……it’s well worth my time but that’s a value trade. In that era, bronze bearings were the norm. Today, not so. Frankly a pilot bearing is a ways down the criticality list but this thread was in reference to $60 Oilite bushings versus $15 roller bearings and related performance and reliability issues and associate risks.
>
> Best,
> K
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Asa Jay Laughton<asajay at asajay.com>
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 22:22:24 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
>
> I have to question this thinking in part, not entirely mind you.
>
> I can appreciate the value in wanting to know if centerlines are
> properly aligned and not skewed.
>
> However, how much time did DeTomaso or Ford spend on that when building
> each car? In an assembly plant, I have to wonder as each engine is
> completed and each transmission is completed, was any time spent on
> matching them up in this way? Or was an engine taken from line one and
> a transmission from line two, bolt them together, make sure it turns and
> drop it in the car.
>
> And they did this how many times a day? (at Ford)
>
> I'm just sayin'
> It could be you'll spend a lot more time trying to figure this one out
> than it's worth. I do think it makes for a very interesting engineering
> discussion though. Oh, and for the case of line-boring the mains.... I
> think it probably applies more than any of us give it credit.
>
> Asa Jay
>
> Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> & Shelley Marie
> Spokane, WA
> ******************************
> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
>
>
> On 3/29/2015 7:12 PM, Larry Weston wrote:
>> Given that at this moment there is a separated engine, bell housing and
>> transmission in my shop, I was wondering about the other opportunities
>> for misalignments.
>> 1. Is the ZF seat on the bell housing truly square to the longitudinal
>> centerline of the crankshaft?
>> 2. How much slop is there in the bell housing step where the ZF flange
>> seats?
>> 3. How well does the step on the ZF flange indicate to the input shaft?
>> Since I'm dealing with an assembly that has performed well for
>> thousands of miles, I am going let all these questions rest, but it is
>> evidently worth consideration when working with reconditioned
>> or separately acquired components.
>> > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 19:55:55 -0400
>> > From: coffield at mchsi.com
>> > To: detomaso at poca.com
>> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
>> >
>> > Whether its Oilite bronze, caged roller, or sealed ball bearing, it
>> seems few people check the bell housing run out before installation. Id
>> contend the most important thing that can be done to assure proper
>> pilot bearing operation and long life is to dial in the bell housing. I
>> recently switched transaxles and the new ZF bell had .014 run out so I
>> bought a couple offset dowel pins, mounted a dial on the crank, fiddled
>> with it for a while, and was able to get it to the point where it
>> indicated no worse than .003TRO. Some manufactures say<.005 others
>> <.010.
>> >
>> > If you think about it, given their physical size and how many parts
>> are interfacing, getting the bell and ZF input shaft centered compared
>> to the clearance you would expect/desire between the journal and
>> bearing of this size is really not that trivial. .005 per side is a lot
>> of clearance for a bearing this size and chances are pretty good most
>> bells that arent dialed are probably loading the input shaft/bearing on
>> one side and leaving it unsupported without larger deflections on the
>> other side.how much input shaft deflection is acceptable? .010-015
>> deflection isnt a very comfortable thought to me.
>> >
>> > All the needle bearings pilots Ive ever seen are caged. I think a
>> sealed ball bearing is fine but you still have to have clearance
>> between the input shaft and the inner race because you cant have a win
>> fit and be perfectly concentric. If you dont, youre loading the bearing
>> at install and that can cause premature failure and or cook the grease
>> out. Also, not all sealed ball bearings are created equal. Many ball
>> bearings are just shielded not sealed and even so, even excursions to
>> 6k-7krpm can be a lot for many sealed ball bearings packed with grease
>> to handle.
>> >
>> > I had a caged roller in my car for the last 10 years and the ZF input
>> shaft looked great. Big wheels, wide tires, hard launches. -I replaced
>> it with the same.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Kelly
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Mike Thomas<mbefthomas at comcast.net>
>> > To: 'Julian Kift'<julian_kift at hotmail.com>, 'De Tomaso List'
>> <detomaso at poca.com>
>> > Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 12:55:16 -0400 (EDT)
>> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
>> >
>> > I've got a needle bearing in right now, but will be pulling the ZF
>> next
>> > winter if the clutch chatter doesn't settle down. Last poll had more
>> > leaning to the Oilite, so I thought I'd stir the waters once again.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Mike Thomas
>> >
>> > Pres., Panteras Northwest
>> >
>> > Yellow '74 #6328
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Julian Kift [mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com]
>> > Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2015 8:56 AM
>> > To: Mike Thomas; De Tomaso List
>> > Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I believe Marlin and some of the vendors sell them.
>> >
>> > I was always an advocate of the oilite until I got my GT5; Coz had
>> the ZF
>> > rebuilt and it was fresh back from Dennis Quella, in fact Coz and I
>> > installed it when I picked up the car from him and I then proceeded
>> to drive
>> > from Phoenix to Reno non stop (other than gas). The car wasn't
>> shifting
>> > quite correctly and we got Dennis to drive the car at the Pahrump
>> track
>> > during the Fun Rally, he agreed it was still not shifting correctly.
>> I then
>> > pulled the ZF and sent it back, Dennis went back though it and could
>> find
>> > nothing wrong, however he sent it back with a needle bearing and said
>> try
>> > that for the pilot. Low and behold that fixed all my problems, so now
>> I'm a
>> > convert to the needle bearing and never had an issue since.
>> >
>> > It would be interesting to see if Lloyd Butfoy's opinion aligns with
>> Dennis
>> > on the needle bearing vs. oilite
>> >
>> > Julian
>> > YMMV
>> >
>> >
>> > > From: mbefthomas at comcast.net<mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net>
>> > > To: detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>
>> > > Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 08:19:31 -0700
>> > > Subject: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
>> > >
>> > > Is it Marlin Jack that sells the Oilite bronze idler bushings?
>> > >
>> > > Mike Thomas
>> > > Pres., Panteras Northwest
>> > > Yellow '74 #6328
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
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