[DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
Larry Weston
lplugw at hotmail.com
Sun Mar 29 22:12:48 EDT 2015
Given that at this moment there is a separated engine, bell housing and transmission in my shop, I was wondering about the other opportunities for misalignments.
1. Is the ZF seat on the bell housing truly square to the longitudinal centerline of the crankshaft?
2. How much slop is there in the bell housing step where the ZF flange seats?
3. How well does the step on the ZF flange indicate to the input shaft?
Since I'm dealing with an assembly that has performed well for thousands of miles, I am going let all these questions rest, but it is evidently worth consideration when working with reconditioned or separately acquired components.
> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 19:55:55 -0400
> From: coffield at mchsi.com
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
>
> Whether its Oilite bronze, caged roller, or sealed ball bearing, it seems few people check the bell housing run out before installation. I’d contend the most important thing that can be done to assure proper pilot bearing operation and long life is to dial in the bell housing. I recently switched transaxles and the new ZF bell had .014” run out so I bought a couple offset dowel pins, mounted a dial on the crank, fiddled with it for a while, and was able to get it to the point where it indicated no worse than .003”TRO. Some manufactures say <.005” others <.010”.
>
> If you think about it, given their physical size and how many parts are interfacing, getting the bell and ZF input shaft centered compared to the clearance you would expect/desire between the journal and bearing of this size is really not that trivial. .005” per side is a lot of clearance for a bearing this size and chances are pretty good most bells that aren’t dialed are probably loading the input shaft/bearing on one side and leaving it unsupported without larger deflections on the other side….how much input shaft deflection is acceptable? .010-015” deflection isn’t a very comfortable thought to me.
>
> All the needle bearings pilots I’ve ever seen are caged. I think a sealed ball bearing is fine but you still have to have clearance between the input shaft and the inner race because you can’t have a win fit and be perfectly concentric. If you don’t, you’re loading the bearing at install and that can cause premature failure and or cook the grease out. Also, not all sealed ball bearings are created equal. Many ball bearings are just shielded not sealed and even so, even excursions to 6k-7krpm can be a lot for many sealed ball bearings packed with grease to handle.
>
> I had a caged roller in my car for the last 10 years and the ZF input shaft looked great. Big wheels, wide tires, hard launches. -I replaced it with the same.
>
> Best,
> Kelly
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Thomas <mbefthomas at comcast.net>
> To: 'Julian Kift' <julian_kift at hotmail.com>, 'De Tomaso List' <detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 12:55:16 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
>
> I've got a needle bearing in right now, but will be pulling the ZF next
> winter if the clutch chatter doesn't settle down. Last poll had more
> leaning to the Oilite, so I thought I'd stir the waters once again.
>
>
>
> Mike Thomas
>
> Pres., Panteras Northwest
>
> Yellow '74 #6328
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Julian Kift [mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2015 8:56 AM
> To: Mike Thomas; De Tomaso List
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
>
>
>
> I believe Marlin and some of the vendors sell them.
>
> I was always an advocate of the oilite until I got my GT5; Coz had the ZF
> rebuilt and it was fresh back from Dennis Quella, in fact Coz and I
> installed it when I picked up the car from him and I then proceeded to drive
> from Phoenix to Reno non stop (other than gas). The car wasn't shifting
> quite correctly and we got Dennis to drive the car at the Pahrump track
> during the Fun Rally, he agreed it was still not shifting correctly. I then
> pulled the ZF and sent it back, Dennis went back though it and could find
> nothing wrong, however he sent it back with a needle bearing and said try
> that for the pilot. Low and behold that fixed all my problems, so now I'm a
> convert to the needle bearing and never had an issue since.
>
> It would be interesting to see if Lloyd Butfoy's opinion aligns with Dennis
> on the needle bearing vs. oilite
>
> Julian
> YMMV
>
>
> > From: mbefthomas at comcast.net <mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net>
> > To: detomaso at poca.com <mailto:detomaso at poca.com>
> > Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 08:19:31 -0700
> > Subject: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
> >
> > Is it Marlin Jack that sells the Oilite bronze idler bushings?
> >
> > Mike Thomas
> > Pres., Panteras Northwest
> > Yellow '74 #6328
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
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>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
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>
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-------------- next part --------------
Given that at this moment there is a separated engine, bell housing and
transmission in my shop, I was wondering about the other opportunities
for misalignments.
1. Is the ZF seat on the bell housing truly square to the longitudinal
centerline of the crankshaft?
2. How much slop is there in the bell housing step where the ZF flange
seats?
3. How well does the step on the ZF flange indicate to the input shaft?
Since I'm dealing with an assembly that has performed well for
thousands of miles, I am going let all these questions rest, but it is
evidently worth consideration when working with reconditioned
or separately acquired components.
> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 19:55:55 -0400
> From: coffield at mchsi.com
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
>
> Whether its Oilite bronze, caged roller, or sealed ball bearing, it
seems few people check the bell housing run out before installation. Id
contend the most important thing that can be done to assure proper
pilot bearing operation and long life is to dial in the bell housing. I
recently switched transaxles and the new ZF bell had .014 run out so I
bought a couple offset dowel pins, mounted a dial on the crank, fiddled
with it for a while, and was able to get it to the point where it
indicated no worse than .003TRO. Some manufactures say <.005 others
<.010.
>
> If you think about it, given their physical size and how many parts
are interfacing, getting the bell and ZF input shaft centered compared
to the clearance you would expect/desire between the journal and
bearing of this size is really not that trivial. .005 per side is a lot
of clearance for a bearing this size and chances are pretty good most
bells that arent dialed are probably loading the input shaft/bearing on
one side and leaving it unsupported without larger deflections on the
other side.how much input shaft deflection is acceptable? .010-015
deflection isnt a very comfortable thought to me.
>
> All the needle bearings pilots Ive ever seen are caged. I think a
sealed ball bearing is fine but you still have to have clearance
between the input shaft and the inner race because you cant have a win
fit and be perfectly concentric. If you dont, youre loading the bearing
at install and that can cause premature failure and or cook the grease
out. Also, not all sealed ball bearings are created equal. Many ball
bearings are just shielded not sealed and even so, even excursions to
6k-7krpm can be a lot for many sealed ball bearings packed with grease
to handle.
>
> I had a caged roller in my car for the last 10 years and the ZF input
shaft looked great. Big wheels, wide tires, hard launches. -I replaced
it with the same.
>
> Best,
> Kelly
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Thomas <mbefthomas at comcast.net>
> To: 'Julian Kift' <julian_kift at hotmail.com>, 'De Tomaso List'
<detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 12:55:16 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
>
> I've got a needle bearing in right now, but will be pulling the ZF
next
> winter if the clutch chatter doesn't settle down. Last poll had more
> leaning to the Oilite, so I thought I'd stir the waters once again.
>
>
>
> Mike Thomas
>
> Pres., Panteras Northwest
>
> Yellow '74 #6328
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Julian Kift [mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2015 8:56 AM
> To: Mike Thomas; De Tomaso List
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
>
>
>
> I believe Marlin and some of the vendors sell them.
>
> I was always an advocate of the oilite until I got my GT5; Coz had
the ZF
> rebuilt and it was fresh back from Dennis Quella, in fact Coz and I
> installed it when I picked up the car from him and I then proceeded
to drive
> from Phoenix to Reno non stop (other than gas). The car wasn't
shifting
> quite correctly and we got Dennis to drive the car at the Pahrump
track
> during the Fun Rally, he agreed it was still not shifting correctly.
I then
> pulled the ZF and sent it back, Dennis went back though it and could
find
> nothing wrong, however he sent it back with a needle bearing and said
try
> that for the pilot. Low and behold that fixed all my problems, so now
I'm a
> convert to the needle bearing and never had an issue since.
>
> It would be interesting to see if Lloyd Butfoy's opinion aligns with
Dennis
> on the needle bearing vs. oilite
>
> Julian
> YMMV
>
>
> > From: mbefthomas at comcast.net <mailto:mbefthomas at comcast.net>
> > To: detomaso at poca.com <mailto:detomaso at poca.com>
> > Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 08:19:31 -0700
> > Subject: [DeTomaso] Oilite Bronze Bushings - Marlin Jack?
> >
> > Is it Marlin Jack that sells the Oilite bronze idler bushings?
> >
> > Mike Thomas
> > Pres., Panteras Northwest
> > Yellow '74 #6328
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at poca.com <mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com>
> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use
> the links above.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
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