[DeTomaso] A Very Scary Obituary

Jeff Detrich jjdetrich at gmail.com
Sun Mar 1 17:06:37 EST 2015


While I may agree with your sentiments, pls use NPC.

Jeff

Also:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp  -  mostly false

University of Edinburgh
http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/faqs/parqsqtt.shtml#Aftytler2

"Tytler, Alexander Fraser (Lord Woodhouselee)*Do you have in print or
electronic form something called The decline and fall of the Athenian
Republic (1776) by a supposed Edinburgh University History Professor
Alexander Fraser Tytler (Lord Woodhouselee)?*
*I've heard of a quotation by Alexander Fraser Tytler about the lifespan of
democracy. Was it in The decline and fall of the Athenian Republic?*
Edinburgh University Library occasionally receives enquiries, particularly
from North America, about this particular work. However, this title is not
in our Library holdings, nor does it appear in the stocks of the other
major research libraries in the UK (according to the 'union' catalogue
COPAC)...
Locally, the chapters of Tytler's *General history ...* (which we DO have)
has been checked on the off-chance that *The decline and fall*might have
been a chapter title... but it is not...

Clarifying a bit more, the earliest published works of Tytler that we have
are:
*Plan and outlines of a course of lectures on universal history, ancient
and modern, delivered in the University of Edinburgh*. Edinburgh, 1782.
Note: Presentation copy from the author.
*Elements of general history, ancient and modern. To which are added a
table of chronology and a comparative view of ancient and modern geography*.
2 vols. Edinburgh, 1801. Note: Presentation copy from the author.
The two volume work is a published version of the lecture course outlined
in the plan.
The publication situation is a bit complicated by later editions of the
lectures, sometimes with an additional volume by different other authors
bringing the coverage up to 1820 and later the 1840s and 1850s.

Additionally we hold bundles of unsorted, or comparatively unsorted
manuscripts of Tytler.

Often in the enquiries we receive we are provided with a 'quote' (see
below) from Tytler referring to the steps that a democracy can go thro'
prior to its fall but this is not in the *General history...* either.
We have scanned our holdings pretty thoroughly on different occasions,
going back a few years now, but we have not found the quotation or anything
similar to it, but we cannot absolutely rule out the possibility that we
have missed it.

With regard to the 'quote', the Library of Congess which has a substantial
collection of Alexander Fraser Tytler, and has experience of working with
his output, also confirms that it is not in the *General history*.
In *Soldiers of fortune. The story of the Mamlukes* by John Bagot Glubb
'Pasha' (1897-1986), published in New York by Stein and Day, 1973, Glubb
gives an unattributed reference to stages in the 'life of democracy',
stating p.230 that the words were written by Alexander Fraser Tytler but
providing no source. By his own admission however, on p.9, Glubb was not a
scholar.

[Quote]...: *A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government ...
The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
These nations have progressed through the following sequence: From bondage
to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to
liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from
selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to
dependency, and from dependency back into bondage*."

On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Boyd Casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:

>    It would be easily for me to say F###k It! because in all likely hood
>    the way things are going I wont be here to have to deal with it, but
>    that's that same attitude the people who cut down the entire rain
>    forest, A who burn mountains of fossil fuel with no thought to future
>    generations with no thought to our grand children and great
>    grandchildren. I have two daughters one A who just turned 20 and one
>    who just turned 17. So I have to worry about the planet and it's
>    resources left for them.A  Not even taking the natural resources into
>    consideration. Any of us who are parents have to worry about political
>    turmoil and if we will still have a society or if the world will be in
>    a state of religious war.
>    Hugh Boyd
>
>    On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Dave McLain
>    <[1]davidmclain39 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>    I've seen that one before and feel that once you have a majority in the
>    population that will vote for a party that gives free handouts(are
>    basically votes that are bought and paid for) that the party would
>    never be able to be voted out of office and they would become
>    dictatorial. A
>
>    On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Boyd Casey <[2]boyd411 at gmail.com>
>    wrote:
>
>    I think many A of you have seen this before if so it's worth a review ,
>    if not it's worth A a looksee!
>    A
>    A
>
>    A
>
>    THIS IS SAD---- BUT THINK ABOUT IT AFTER YOU READ IT
>    THEN READ IT AGAINA AND FORWARD IT, PLEASEa|..!
>    A
>    A
>    In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the
>    University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the
>    Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior: "A democracy is always
>    Temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent
>    Form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until
>    The time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous
>    Gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority
>    Always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from
>    The public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally
>    Collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a
>    Dictatorship."
>    A
>    "The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the
>    Beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200
>    Years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
>    A
>    From bondage to spiritual faith;A
>    From spiritual faith to great courage;A
>    From courage to liberty;A
>    From liberty to abundance;A
>    From abundance to complacency;A
>    From complacency to apathy;A
>    From apathy to dependence;A
>    From dependence back into bondage."
>    The Obituary follows:
>    A
>    Born 1776, Died 2016A
>    It doesn't hurt to read this several times.A
>    Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law inA
>    St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning
>    The last Presidential election:
>    A
>    Number of States won by:A A A A A A A A  Obama:
>    19A A A A A A A A A A A A A A  Romney: 29A
>    Square miles of land won by:A A A  Obama: 580,000A A A A A  Romney:
>    2,427,000A
>    Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 millionA  Romney: 143
>    millionA
>    Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won
>    by:A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
>    A A A A A A A A A A A
>    Obama: 13.2A A A A A A A A A A A A  Romney: 2.1
>    A
>    Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory
>    Romney won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the
>    country.
>    A
>    Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low
>    Income tenements and living off various forms of government
>    Welfare..."
>    A
>    Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the
>    "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of
>    Democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population
>    Already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase..
>    A
>    If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million
>    Criminal invaders called illegalasA - and they vote - then we can say
>    Goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.
>    A
>    If you are in favor of this, then by all means, delete this message.
>    A
>    If you are not, then pass this along to help everyone realize just how
>    Much is at stake, knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to our
>    Freedom..
>
>    A
>
>    A
>    A
>    A
>    A
>
>    --
>    Please note new email address : A [3]davidmclain39 at gmail.com
>
> References
>
>    1. mailto:davidmclain39 at gmail.com
>    2. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
>    3. mailto:davidmclain39 at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
> the links above.
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
   While I may agree with your sentiments, pls use NPC.
   Jeff
   Also:
   [1]http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp A - A mostly
   false
   University of Edinburgh
   A [2]http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/faqs/parqsqtt.shtml#Aftytler2

"Tytler, Alexander Fraser (Lord Woodhouselee)

   Do you have in print or electronic form something calledA The decline
   and fall of the Athenian RepublicA (1776) by a supposed Edinburgh
   University History Professor Alexander Fraser Tytler (Lord
   Woodhouselee)?
   I've heard of a quotation by Alexander Fraser Tytler about the lifespan
   of democracy. Was it inA The decline and fall of the Athenian Republic?
   Edinburgh University Library occasionally receives enquiries,
   particularly from North America, about this particular work. However,
   this title is not in our Library holdings, nor does it appear in the
   stocks of the other major research libraries in the UK (according to
   the 'union' catalogue COPAC)...
   Locally, the chapters of Tytler'sA General history ...A (which we DO
   have) has been checked on the off-chance thatA The decline and
   fallmight have been a chapter title... but it is not...

   Clarifying a bit more, the earliest published works of Tytler that we
   have are:
   Plan and outlines of a course of lectures on universal history, ancient
   and modern, delivered in the University of Edinburgh. Edinburgh, 1782.
   Note: Presentation copy from the author.
   Elements of general history, ancient and modern. To which are added a
   table of chronology and a comparative view of ancient and modern
   geography. 2 vols. Edinburgh, 1801. Note: Presentation copy from the
   author.A
   The two volume work is a published version of the lecture course
   outlined in the plan.
   The publication situation is a bit complicated by later editions of the
   lectures, sometimes with an additional volume by different other
   authors bringing the coverage up to 1820 and later the 1840s and 1850s.

   Additionally we hold bundles of unsorted, or comparatively unsorted
   manuscripts of Tytler.

   Often in the enquiries we receive we are provided with a 'quote' (see
   below) from Tytler referring to the steps that a democracy can go thro'
   prior to its fall but this is not in theA General history...A either.
   We have scanned our holdings pretty thoroughly on different occasions,
   going back a few years now, but we have not found the quotation or
   anything similar to it, but we cannot absolutely rule out the
   possibility that we have missed it.

   With regard to the 'quote', the Library of Congess which has a
   substantial collection of Alexander Fraser Tytler, and has experience
   of working with his output, also confirms that it is not in
   theA General history.
   InA Soldiers of fortune. The story of the MamlukesA by John Bagot Glubb
   'Pasha' (1897-1986), published in New York by Stein and Day, 1973,
   Glubb gives an unattributed reference to stages in the 'life of
   democracy', stating p.230 that the words were written by Alexander
   Fraser Tytler but providing no source. By his own admission however, on
   p.9, Glubb was not a scholar.

   [Quote]...:A A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government
   ... The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200
   years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence:
   From bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage,
   from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to
   selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to
   apathy, from apathy to dependency, and from dependency back into
   bondage."

   On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Boyd Casey <[3]boyd411 at gmail.com>
   wrote:

     A  A It would be easily for me to say F###k It! because in all
     likely hood
     A  A the way things are going I wont be here to have to deal with
     it, but
     A  A that's that same attitude the people who cut down the entire
     rain
     A  A forest, A who burn mountains of fossil fuel with no thought to
     future
     A  A generations with no thought to our grand children and great
     A  A grandchildren. I have two daughters one A who just turned 20
     and one
     A  A who just turned 17. So I have to worry about the planet and
     it's
     A  A resources left for them.AA  Not even taking the natural
     resources into
     A  A consideration. Any of us who are parents have to worry about
     political
     A  A turmoil and if we will still have a society or if the world
     will be in
     A  A a state of religious war.
     A  A Hugh Boyd
     A  A On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Dave McLain
     A  A <[1][4]davidmclain39 at gmail.com> wrote:
     A  A I've seen that one before and feel that once you have a
     majority in the
     A  A population that will vote for a party that gives free
     handouts(are
     A  A basically votes that are bought and paid for) that the party
     would
     A  A never be able to be voted out of office and they would become
     A  A dictatorial. A
     A  A On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Boyd Casey
     <[2][5]boyd411 at gmail.com>
     A  A wrote:
     A  A I think many A of you have seen this before if so it's worth a
     review ,
     A  A if not it's worth A a looksee!
     A  A A
     A  A A
     A  A A
     A  A THIS IS SAD---- BUT THINK ABOUT IT AFTER YOU READ IT
     A  A THEN READ IT AGAINA AND FORWARD IT, PLEASEa|..!
     A  A A
     A  A A
     A  A In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the
     A  A University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the
     A  A Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior: "A democracy is
     always
     A  A Temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent
     A  A Form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until
     A  A The time that voters discover that they can vote themselves
     generous
     A  A Gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the
     majority
     A  A Always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits
     from
     A  A The public treasury, with the result that every democracy will
     finally
     A  A Collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed
     by a
     A  A Dictatorship."
     A  A A
     A  A "The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the
     A  A Beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those
     200
     A  A Years, these nations always progressed through the following
     sequence:
     A  A A
     A  A From bondage to spiritual faith;A
     A  A From spiritual faith to great courage;A
     A  A From courage to liberty;A
     A  A From liberty to abundance;A
     A  A From abundance to complacency;A
     A  A From complacency to apathy;A
     A  A From apathy to dependence;A
     A  A From dependence back into bondage."
     A  A The Obituary follows:
     A  A A
     A  A Born 1776, Died 2016A
     A  A It doesn't hurt to read this several times.A
     A  A Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law inA
     A  A St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts
     concerning
     A  A The last Presidential election:
     A  A A
     A  A Number of States won by:A A A A A A A AA  Obama:
     A  A 19A A A A A A A A A A A A A AA  Romney: 29A
     A  A Square miles of land won by:A A AA  Obama: 580,000A A A A AA
     Romney:
     A  A 2,427,000A
     A  A Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 millionAA  Romney:
     143
     A  A millionA
     A  A Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won
     A  A by:A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
     A A A A
     A  A A A A A A A A A A A A
     A  A Obama: 13.2A A A A A A A A A A A AA  Romney: 2.1
     A  A A
     A  A Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory
     A  A Romney won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens
     of the
     A  A country.
     A  A A
     A  A Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low
     A  A Income tenements and living off various forms of government
     A  A Welfare..."
     A  A A
     A  A Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the
     A  A "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition
     of
     A  A Democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population
     A  A Already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase..
     A  A A
     A  A If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million
     A  A Criminal invaders called illegalasA - and they vote - then we
     can say
     A  A Goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.
     A  A A
     A  A If you are in favor of this, then by all means, delete this
     message.
     A  A A
     A  A If you are not, then pass this along to help everyone realize
     just how
     A  A Much is at stake, knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to
     our
     A  A Freedom..
     A  A A
     A  A A
     A  A A
     A  A A
     A  A A
     A  A --
     A  A Please note new email address : A [3][6]davidmclain39 at gmail.com
     References
     A  A 1. mailto:[7]davidmclain39 at gmail.com
     A  A 2. mailto:[8]boyd411 at gmail.com
     A  A 3. mailto:[9]davidmclain39 at gmail.com
     _______________________________________________
     Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
     Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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References

   1. http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp
   2. http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/faqs/parqsqtt.shtml#Aftytler2
   3. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
   4. mailto:davidmclain39 at gmail.com
   5. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
   6. mailto:davidmclain39 at gmail.com
   7. mailto:davidmclain39 at gmail.com
   8. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
   9. mailto:davidmclain39 at gmail.com
  10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com


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