[DeTomaso] Adding sucker fans
Rob Dumoulin
rob at dumoulins.net
Sun Jul 5 19:14:22 EDT 2015
Thanks Michael, Mike, and JD.
The reason I want to lay it forward is to get some modern fans on it. I
believe my radiator is a Hall unit from many years back. It has both a top
and bottom sensor, though only the top is wired. The car does get warm in
traffic in the Florida heat and my plans are to rebuild the stock motor up
to 500 hp. The original fans are pitifully bad. I cannot imagine my current
setup is up to it. Since I have yet to ever pull it out, I am preparing for
a little cleanup.
I considered getting pusher fans instead which would be much easier, but I
also do not care for the tight fitment between the radiator and headlight
switches/motor that would make that area much more accessible.
Again, as always, thanks for the insights.
On Jul 5, 2015 1:34 PM, <MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/5/15 9 15 10, rob at dumoulins.net writes:
>
>
> Well, one project always leads to another......
>
> >>>As they often do....
>
>
> >Last weekend I wet blasted the front 1/3rd and trunk of 1488. With the
> surface painted with self-etching primer and hood off, I am going to pull
> the radiator and replace the coolant pipes.
>
> >>>Sounds good.
>
> >While I have the radiator out,
> I plan to tilt the radiator all the way down and add sucker fans.
>
> >>>Okay...why??? What, exactly, are you hoping to achieve by doing this?
>
> I know that laying the radiator forward was a popular fad some years ago.
> It does offer some advantages, including the ability to mount an A/C
> condensor on the front side of the radiator. But otherwise, there is zero
> practical improvement in the car's cooling system merely by laying the
> radiator down and fitting sucker fans. If you are starting from scratch,
> with no components in your hands, there's nothing inherently wrong with
> purchasing a lay-down radiator system. But if you already have a good
> stand-up radiator system (that is, good radiator/good fans), then altering
> it is merely an exercise in work for work's sake, and spending money
> unnecessarily.
>
> So, again, what is it that is motivating you to do this to yourself?
>
> >My radiator input and output tubes take a 90 degree upon leaving the
> radiator and extend towards the middle. The tubes would be in the way of a
> fan mounted on the back.
>
> >>>Yup.
>
> > I've never heard anybody mention this issue.
>
> >>>That's because nobody (well, I know one guy) ever lays down an existing
> stand-up radiator.
>
> >Laying forward will require new mounts be welded in reverse configuration,
>
> >>>Nope. Even the lay-down radiators that you buy from the vendors have
> their top mounts set up for the standard stand-up configuration. They lay
> them down by using thin stainless steel straps that bolt to the body mount,
> extend forward alongside the radiator, and then bolt to the standard
> radiator mount.
>
> >but do I just cut the elbows on the back of the radiator to remove the 90
> degree turn?
>
> >>>You, or somebody, yes.
>
> >How do you add a flair to secure the hose?
>
> >>>You mean a bead, not a flare. A radiator shop can probably do that for
> you; failing that, you used to be able to buy a tube beading tool from
> Harbor Freight, but they don't list it anymore.
>
> Eastwood sells one that costs as much as a new radiator:
>
> http://www.eastwood.com/bead-former-for-metal-tubing-5-8in-2in.html
>
> But there are some DIY videos on Youtube that show you how you can build
> your own beading tool. Like this one:
>
> https://youtu.be/JVDUM2ZxoW0
>
> Clever!
>
> But again, I question why this line of questioning even exists? FWIW,
> there is a Pantera in my garage right now that came in for some fettling,
> on its way to a new owner (a deal may have been reached, but if not, I'll
> be notifying everybody about it as there are always prospective buyers
> lurking here). It came here equipped with a Fluidyne radiator, laid down,
> with sucker fans. Marcus Smith and I had to do a lot of work to it, as it
> wasn't mounted properly (the pins at the bottom of the radiator missed the
> rubber grommets entirely and were just sitting on the chassis crossmember,
> making it a solid mount!?) and the fans were wired up very badly, with no
> traditional thermoswitches and an adjustable thermoswitch instead.
>
> We got the electrical sorted out easily enough (by the way, most people
> don't know that Fluidyne radiators use standard VW/Audi screw-in temp
> sensors, available cheap at any parts store), got the bottom of the
> radiator mounted correctly in the stock mounts, and then had to fabricate
> new upper mounting straps. This because the old straps were too long when
> the bottom was moved, and the front of the radiator hit the stock fan
> mounting brackets on the body.
>
> The attached photo shows one of the new mounts. The radiator *just* fits
> now.
>
> Really, if you are insistent upon laying the radiator down, the best thing
> to do is buy a mount kit from one of the vendors, such as this:
>
> http://precisionproformance.com/cs1037.php
>
> The straps at the top of the photo are self-explanatory, and the fact that
> they have a couple of bends in them makes for better fitment versus the
> home-brew version showed in the photo. But the real key is the bottom
> piece. In practice, the rubber grommet is removed from the stock bottom
> mount, this guy is then bolted in place where the grommet used to be, and
> the grommet is then installed in the large hole in the new piece. This has
> the effect of moving the bottom of the radiator up and rearwards, which in
> turn gets the middle of the radiator away from the stock fan mounting
> locations, and makes for a much cleaner, better installation.
>
> The body opening narrows as it moves forward, and there is precious little
> room for the top of the radiator to exist when it's just tilted forward and
> left in the stock bottom mounts. Although I've taken pains to use the
> stock upper rubber mounts (which were missing when the car arrived here),
> I'm not entirely convinced that this current solution is optimal. The
> forward mounting bolt is just barely touching the body, and even though
> it's going through a rubber mount, I'm slightly concerned that it could
> start putting side loads on the radiator itself.
>
> Given that there appears to be room for the sucker fans to peacefully
> exist with the radiator in a stand-up configuration, if it was my car I
> would be tempted to shorten the 90-degree rubber hoses and stand the
> radiator upright. If it is sold locally, I may yet undertake that project
> with the new owner if he's so inclined.
>
> Oh, it's worth mentioning that after the electrical system was sorted out,
> the cooling system was filled and thoroughly vacuum-bled. On a 100-degree
> day, the car was then started up and tortured, revving it at 2500 rpm while
> stationary for about 10 minutes. Water temp got up to 215 degrees and then
> just sat there, with no overheating.
>
> While that is a measure of success, it's worth noting that my own Pantera,
> with a 25-year-old Hall Pantera standard replacement radiator, and Hall
> Pantera Merian fans, will do *exactly* the same thing.
>
> A lot of people go through great agony to throw their whole cooling system
> in the trash and fit a mega-dollar new lay down radiator with sucker fans,
> then report a great improvement and use that to justify their expense. I
> would argue that their existing system (as long as it had quality
> components, like my car has) would have performed just as well if it had
> been properly maintained (fans spinning the right direction, air bubbles
> removed from the system etc.)
>
> So let me close by once again urging you to rethink the whole 'lay it
> down' idea. It will be a lot of work, a not-inconsequential amount of
> money, and at the end of the day you will have ZERO improvement over your
> current system, assuming your current components are in good shape.
>
> And if they're not? In that case for the sake of simplicity I'd urge you
> to simply replace those components that need replacing, but leave the
> general design/location alone.
>
> Good luck, and let us know how it turns out?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
Thanks Michael, Mike, and JD.
The reason I want to lay it forward is to get some modern fans on it. I
believe my radiator is a Hall unit from many years back. It has both a
top and bottom sensor, though only the top is wired. The car does get
warm in traffic in the Florida heat and my plans are to rebuild the
stock motor up to 500 hp. The original fans are pitifully bad. I cannot
imagine my current setup is up to it. Since I have yet to ever pull it
out, I am preparing for a little cleanup.
I considered getting pusher fans instead which would be much easier,
but I also do not care for the tight fitment between the radiator and
headlight switches/motor that would make that area much more
accessible.
Again, as always, thanks for the insights.
On Jul 5, 2015 1:34 PM, <[1]MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:
In a message dated 7/5/15 9 15 10, [2]rob at dumoulins.net writes:
Well, one project always leads to another......
>>>As they often do....
>Last weekend I wet blasted the front 1/3rd and trunk of 1488. With
the
surface painted with self-etching primer and hood off, I am going to
pull
the radiator and replace the coolant pipes.
>>>Sounds good.
>While I have the radiator out,
I plan to tilt the radiator all the way down and add sucker fans.
>>>Okay...why???A What, exactly, are you hoping to achieve by doing
this?
I know that laying the radiator forward was a popular fad some years
ago.A It does offer some advantages, including the ability to mount
an A/C condensor on the front side of the radiator.A But otherwise,
there is zero practical improvement in the car's cooling system
merely by laying the radiator down and fitting sucker fans.A If you
are starting from scratch, with no components in your hands, there's
nothing inherently wrong with purchasing a lay-down radiator
system.A But if you already have a good stand-up radiator system
(that is, good radiator/good fans), then altering it is merely an
exercise in work for work's sake, and spending money unnecessarily.
So, again, what is it that is motivating you to do this to yourself?
>My radiator input and output tubes take a 90 degree upon leaving
the
radiator and extend towards the middle. The tubes would be in the
way of a
fan mounted on the back.
>>>Yup.
> I've never heard anybody mention this issue.
>>>That's because nobody (well, I know one guy) ever lays down an
existing stand-up radiator.
>Laying forward will require new mounts be welded in reverse
configuration,
>>>Nope.A Even the lay-down radiators that you buy from the vendors
have their top mounts set up for the standard stand-up
configuration.A They lay them down by using thin stainless steel
straps that bolt to the body mount, extend forward alongside the
radiator, and then bolt to the standard radiator mount.
>but do I just cut the elbows on the back of the radiator to remove
the 90
degree turn?
>>>You, or somebody, yes.
>How do you add a flair to secure the hose?
>>>You mean a bead, not a flare.A A radiator shop can probably do
that for you; failing that, you used to be able to buy a tube
beading tool from Harbor Freight, but they don't list it anymore.
Eastwood sells one that costs as much as a new radiator:
[3]http://www.eastwood.com/bead-former-for-metal-tubing-5-8in-2in.ht
ml
But there are some DIY videos on Youtube that show you how you can
build your own beading tool.A Like this one:
[4]https://youtu.be/JVDUM2ZxoW0
Clever!
But again, I question why this line of questioning even exists?A
FWIW, there is a Pantera in my garage right now that came in for
some fettling, on its way to a new owner (a deal may have been
reached, but if not, I'll be notifying everybody about it as there
are always prospective buyers lurking here).A It came here equipped
with a Fluidyne radiator, laid down, with sucker fans.A Marcus
Smith and I had to do a lot of work to it, as it wasn't mounted
properly (the pins at the bottom of the radiator missed the rubber
grommets entirely and were just sitting on the chassis crossmember,
making it a solid mount!?) and the fans were wired up very badly,
with no traditional thermoswitches and an adjustable thermoswitch
instead.
We got the electrical sorted out easily enough (by the way, most
people don't know that Fluidyne radiators use standard VW/Audi
screw-in temp sensors, available cheap at any parts store), got the
bottom of the radiator mounted correctly in the stock mounts, and
then had to fabricate new upper mounting straps.A This because the
old straps were too long when the bottom was moved, and the front of
the radiator hit the stock fan mounting brackets on the body.
The attached photo shows one of the new mounts.A The radiator
*just* fits now.
Really, if you are insistent upon laying the radiator down, the best
thing to do is buy a mount kit from one of the vendors, such as
this:
[5]http://precisionproformance.com/cs1037.php
The straps at the top of the photo are self-explanatory, and the
fact that they have a couple of bends in them makes for better
fitment versus the home-brew version showed in the photo.A But the
real key is the bottom piece.A In practice, the rubber grommet is
removed from the stock bottom mount, this guy is then bolted in
place where the grommet used to be, and the grommet is then
installed in the large hole in the new piece.A This has the effect
of moving the bottom of the radiator up and rearwards, which in turn
gets the middle of the radiator away from the stock fan mounting
locations, and makes for a much cleaner, better installation.
The body opening narrows as it moves forward, and there is precious
little room for the top of the radiator to exist when it's just
tilted forward and left in the stock bottom mounts.A Although I've
taken pains to use the stock upper rubber mounts (which were missing
when the car arrived here), I'm not entirely convinced that this
current solution is optimal.A The forward mounting bolt is just
barely touching the body, and even though it's going through a
rubber mount, I'm slightly concerned that it could start putting
side loads on the radiator itself.
Given that there appears to be room for the sucker fans to
peacefully exist with the radiator in a stand-up configuration, if
it was my car I would be tempted to shorten the 90-degree rubber
hoses and stand the radiator upright.A If it is sold locally, I may
yet undertake that project with the new owner if he's so inclined.
Oh, it's worth mentioning that after the electrical system was
sorted out, the cooling system was filled and thoroughly
vacuum-bled.A On a 100-degree day, the car was then started up and
tortured, revving it at 2500 rpm while stationary for about 10
minutes.A Water temp got up to 215 degrees and then just sat there,
with no overheating.
While that is a measure of success, it's worth noting that my own
Pantera, with a 25-year-old Hall Pantera standard replacement
radiator, and Hall Pantera Merian fans, will do *exactly* the same
thing.A
A lot of people go through great agony to throw their whole cooling
system in the trash and fit a mega-dollar new lay down radiator with
sucker fans, then report a great improvement and use that to justify
their expense. I would argue that their existing system (as long as
it had quality components, like my car has) would have performed
just as well if it had been properly maintained (fans spinning the
right direction, air bubbles removed from the system etc.)
So let me close by once again urging you to rethink the whole 'lay
it down' idea.A It will be a lot of work, a not-inconsequential
amount of money, and at the end of the day you will have ZERO
improvement over your current system, assuming your current
components are in good shape.
And if they're not?A In that case for the sake of simplicity I'd
urge you to simply replace those components that need replacing, but
leave the general design/location alone.
Good luck, and let us know how it turns out?
Mike
References
1. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
2. mailto:rob at dumoulins.net
3. http://www.eastwood.com/bead-former-for-metal-tubing-5-8in-2in.html
4. https://youtu.be/JVDUM2ZxoW0
5. http://precisionproformance.com/cs1037.php
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