[DeTomaso] Adding sucker fans

[MikeLDrew at aol.com]

In a message dated 7/5/15 9 15 10, rob at dumoulins.net writes:


> Well, one project always leads to another......
> 
>>>As they often do....
> 
> >Last weekend I wet blasted the front 1/3rd and trunk of 1488. With the
> surface painted with self-etching primer and hood off, I am going to pull
> the radiator and replace the coolant pipes. 
> 
>>>Sounds good.

> >While I have the radiator out,
> I plan to tilt the radiator all the way down and add sucker fans.
> 
> >>>Okay...why???   What, exactly, are you hoping to achieve by doing this?

I know that laying the radiator forward was a popular fad some years ago.   
It does offer some advantages, including the ability to mount an A/C 
condensor on the front side of the radiator.   But otherwise, there is zero 
practical improvement in the car's cooling system merely by laying the radiator 
down and fitting sucker fans.   If you are starting from scratch, with no 
components in your hands, there's nothing inherently wrong with purchasing a 
lay-down radiator system.   But if you already have a good stand-up radiator 
system (that is, good radiator/good fans), then altering it is merely an 
exercise in work for work's sake, and spending money unnecessarily.

So, again, what is it that is motivating you to do this to yourself?

> >My radiator input and output tubes take a 90 degree upon leaving the
> radiator and extend towards the middle. The tubes would be in the way of a
> fan mounted on the back.
> 
>>>Yup.

> > I've never heard anybody mention this issue.
> 
>>>That's because nobody (well, I know one guy) ever lays down an existing 
stand-up radiator.

> >Laying forward will require new mounts be welded in reverse 
> configuration,
> 
>>>Nope.   Even the lay-down radiators that you buy from the vendors have 
their top mounts set up for the standard stand-up configuration.   They lay 
them down by using thin stainless steel straps that bolt to the body mount, 
extend forward alongside the radiator, and then bolt to the standard radiator 
mount.

> >but do I just cut the elbows on the back of the radiator to remove the 
> 90
> degree turn? 
> 
>>>You, or somebody, yes.

> >How do you add a flair to secure the hose?
> 
>>>You mean a bead, not a flare.   A radiator shop can probably do that for 
you; failing that, you used to be able to buy a tube beading tool from 
Harbor Freight, but they don't list it anymore.

Eastwood sells one that costs as much as a new radiator:

http://www.eastwood.com/bead-former-for-metal-tubing-5-8in-2in.html

But there are some DIY videos on Youtube that show you how you can build 
your own beading tool.   Like this one:

https://youtu.be/JVDUM2ZxoW0

Clever!

But again, I question why this line of questioning even exists?   FWIW, 
there is a Pantera in my garage right now that came in for some fettling, on 
its way to a new owner (a deal may have been reached, but if not, I'll be 
notifying everybody about it as there are always prospective buyers lurking 
here).   It came here equipped with a Fluidyne radiator, laid down, with sucker 
fans.   Marcus Smith and I had to do a lot of work to it, as it wasn't 
mounted properly (the pins at the bottom of the radiator missed the rubber 
grommets entirely and were just sitting on the chassis crossmember, making it a 
solid mount!?) and the fans were wired up very badly, with no traditional 
thermoswitches and an adjustable thermoswitch instead.

We got the electrical sorted out easily enough (by the way, most people 
don't know that Fluidyne radiators use standard VW/Audi screw-in temp sensors, 
available cheap at any parts store), got the bottom of the radiator mounted 
correctly in the stock mounts, and then had to fabricate new upper mounting 
straps.   This because the old straps were too long when the bottom was 
moved, and the front of the radiator hit the stock fan mounting brackets on the 
body.

The attached photo shows one of the new mounts.   The radiator *just* fits 
now.

Really, if you are insistent upon laying the radiator down, the best thing 
to do is buy a mount kit from one of the vendors, such as this:

http://precisionproformance.com/cs1037.php

The straps at the top of the photo are self-explanatory, and the fact that 
they have a couple of bends in them makes for better fitment versus the 
home-brew version showed in the photo.   But the real key is the bottom piece.   
In practice, the rubber grommet is removed from the stock bottom mount, 
this guy is then bolted in place where the grommet used to be, and the grommet 
is then installed in the large hole in the new piece.   This has the effect 
of moving the bottom of the radiator up and rearwards, which in turn gets 
the middle of the radiator away from the stock fan mounting locations, and 
makes for a much cleaner, better installation.

The body opening narrows as it moves forward, and there is precious little 
room for the top of the radiator to exist when it's just tilted forward and 
left in the stock bottom mounts.   Although I've taken pains to use the 
stock upper rubber mounts (which were missing when the car arrived here), I'm 
not entirely convinced that this current solution is optimal.   The forward 
mounting bolt is just barely touching the body, and even though it's going 
through a rubber mount, I'm slightly concerned that it could start putting side 
loads on the radiator itself.

Given that there appears to be room for the sucker fans to peacefully exist 
with the radiator in a stand-up configuration, if it was my car I would be 
tempted to shorten the 90-degree rubber hoses and stand the radiator 
upright.   If it is sold locally, I may yet undertake that project with the new 
owner if he's so inclined.

Oh, it's worth mentioning that after the electrical system was sorted out, 
the cooling system was filled and thoroughly vacuum-bled.   On a 100-degree 
day, the car was then started up and tortured, revving it at 2500 rpm while 
stationary for about 10 minutes.   Water temp got up to 215 degrees and then 
just sat there, with no overheating.

While that is a measure of success, it's worth noting that my own Pantera, 
with a 25-year-old Hall Pantera standard replacement radiator, and Hall 
Pantera Merian fans, will do *exactly* the same thing.   

A lot of people go through great agony to throw their whole cooling system 
in the trash and fit a mega-dollar new lay down radiator with sucker fans, 
then report a great improvement and use that to justify their expense.  I 
would argue that their existing system (as long as it had quality components, 
like my car has) would have performed just as well if it had been properly 
maintained (fans spinning the right direction, air bubbles removed from the 
system etc.)

So let me close by once again urging you to rethink the whole 'lay it down' 
idea.   It will be a lot of work, a not-inconsequential amount of money, 
and at the end of the day you will have ZERO improvement over your current 
system, assuming your current components are in good shape.

And if they're not?   In that case for the sake of simplicity I'd urge you 
to simply replace those components that need replacing, but leave the 
general design/location alone.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out?

Mike

-------------- next part --------------
   In a message dated 7/5/15 9 15 10, rob at dumoulins.net writes:

     Well, one project always leads to another......

   >>>As they often do....

     >Last weekend I wet blasted the front 1/3rd and trunk of 1488. With
     the
     surface painted with self-etching primer and hood off, I am going to
     pull
     the radiator and replace the coolant pipes.

   >>>Sounds good.

     >While I have the radiator out,
     I plan to tilt the radiator all the way down and add sucker fans.

   >>>Okay...why???  What, exactly, are you hoping to achieve by doing
   this?
   I know that laying the radiator forward was a popular fad some years
   ago.  It does offer some advantages, including the ability to mount an
   A/C condensor on the front side of the radiator.  But otherwise, there
   is zero practical improvement in the car's cooling system merely by
   laying the radiator down and fitting sucker fans.  If you are starting
   from scratch, with no components in your hands, there's nothing
   inherently wrong with purchasing a lay-down radiator system.  But if
   you already have a good stand-up radiator system (that is, good
   radiator/good fans), then altering it is merely an exercise in work for
   work's sake, and spending money unnecessarily.
   So, again, what is it that is motivating you to do this to yourself?

     >My radiator input and output tubes take a 90 degree upon leaving
     the
     radiator and extend towards the middle. The tubes would be in the
     way of a
     fan mounted on the back.

   >>>Yup.

     > I've never heard anybody mention this issue.

   >>>That's because nobody (well, I know one guy) ever lays down an
   existing stand-up radiator.

     >Laying forward will require new mounts be welded in reverse
     configuration,

   >>>Nope.  Even the lay-down radiators that you buy from the vendors
   have their top mounts set up for the standard stand-up configuration.
   They lay them down by using thin stainless steel straps that bolt to
   the body mount, extend forward alongside the radiator, and then bolt to
   the standard radiator mount.

     >but do I just cut the elbows on the back of the radiator to remove
     the 90
     degree turn?

   >>>You, or somebody, yes.

     >How do you add a flair to secure the hose?

   >>>You mean a bead, not a flare.  A radiator shop can probably do that
   for you; failing that, you used to be able to buy a tube beading tool
   from Harbor Freight, but they don't list it anymore.
   Eastwood sells one that costs as much as a new radiator:
   http://www.eastwood.com/bead-former-for-metal-tubing-5-8in-2in.html
   But there are some DIY videos on Youtube that show you how you can
   build your own beading tool.  Like this one:
   https://youtu.be/JVDUM2ZxoW0
   Clever!
   But again, I question why this line of questioning even exists?  FWIW,
   there is a Pantera in my garage right now that came in for some
   fettling, on its way to a new owner (a deal may have been reached, but
   if not, I'll be notifying everybody about it as there are always
   prospective buyers lurking here).  It came here equipped with a
   Fluidyne radiator, laid down, with sucker fans.  Marcus Smith and I had
   to do a lot of work to it, as it wasn't mounted properly (the pins at
   the bottom of the radiator missed the rubber grommets entirely and were
   just sitting on the chassis crossmember, making it a solid mount!?) and
   the fans were wired up very badly, with no traditional thermoswitches
   and an adjustable thermoswitch instead.
   We got the electrical sorted out easily enough (by the way, most people
   don't know that Fluidyne radiators use standard VW/Audi screw-in temp
   sensors, available cheap at any parts store), got the bottom of the
   radiator mounted correctly in the stock mounts, and then had to
   fabricate new upper mounting straps.  This because the old straps were
   too long when the bottom was moved, and the front of the radiator hit
   the stock fan mounting brackets on the body.
   The attached photo shows one of the new mounts.  The radiator *just*
   fits now.
   Really, if you are insistent upon laying the radiator down, the best
   thing to do is buy a mount kit from one of the vendors, such as this:
   http://precisionproformance.com/cs1037.php
   The straps at the top of the photo are self-explanatory, and the fact
   that they have a couple of bends in them makes for better fitment
   versus the home-brew version showed in the photo.  But the real key is
   the bottom piece.  In practice, the rubber grommet is removed from the
   stock bottom mount, this guy is then bolted in place where the grommet
   used to be, and the grommet is then installed in the large hole in the
   new piece.  This has the effect of moving the bottom of the radiator up
   and rearwards, which in turn gets the middle of the radiator away from
   the stock fan mounting locations, and makes for a much cleaner, better
   installation.
   The body opening narrows as it moves forward, and there is precious
   little room for the top of the radiator to exist when it's just tilted
   forward and left in the stock bottom mounts.  Although I've taken pains
   to use the stock upper rubber mounts (which were missing when the car
   arrived here), I'm not entirely convinced that this current solution is
   optimal.  The forward mounting bolt is just barely touching the body,
   and even though it's going through a rubber mount, I'm slightly
   concerned that it could start putting side loads on the radiator
   itself.
   Given that there appears to be room for the sucker fans to peacefully
   exist with the radiator in a stand-up configuration, if it was my car I
   would be tempted to shorten the 90-degree rubber hoses and stand the
   radiator upright.  If it is sold locally, I may yet undertake that
   project with the new owner if he's so inclined.
   Oh, it's worth mentioning that after the electrical system was sorted
   out, the cooling system was filled and thoroughly vacuum-bled.  On a
   100-degree day, the car was then started up and tortured, revving it at
   2500 rpm while stationary for about 10 minutes.  Water temp got up to
   215 degrees and then just sat there, with no overheating.
   While that is a measure of success, it's worth noting that my own
   Pantera, with a 25-year-old Hall Pantera standard replacement radiator,
   and Hall Pantera Merian fans, will do *exactly* the same thing.
   A lot of people go through great agony to throw their whole cooling
   system in the trash and fit a mega-dollar new lay down radiator with
   sucker fans, then report a great improvement and use that to justify
   their expense. I would argue that their existing system (as long as it
   had quality components, like my car has) would have performed just as
   well if it had been properly maintained (fans spinning the right
   direction, air bubbles removed from the system etc.)
   So let me close by once again urging you to rethink the whole 'lay it
   down' idea.  It will be a lot of work, a not-inconsequential amount of
   money, and at the end of the day you will have ZERO improvement over
   your current system, assuming your current components are in good
   shape.
   And if they're not?  In that case for the sake of simplicity I'd urge
   you to simply replace those components that need replacing, but leave
   the general design/location alone.
   Good luck, and let us know how it turns out?
   Mike
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