[DeTomaso] Radiators
grayjim at cox.net
grayjim at cox.net
Wed Jul 1 10:34:29 EDT 2015
After I had a blown head gasket 2 years ago my Fluidyne quit working. I
suspect some of the internal tubes may have been damaged by all the
extra pressure in the cooling system. I then went back to a brass
radiator I had used previously (after having it cleaned) and it has
worked quite well. I use 2 Spal sucker fans though I cannot remember the
diameter. Brass radiator was from Byars.
Just my experience.
Jim Gray
On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 8:12 PM, Charles Engles wrote:
> Dear Stephen,
>
>
> You wrote: "Being an engineer who has designed air-cooled
> heat
> exchangers"....and... "I suspect that the 12 inch pushers will beat
> the 13
> inch suckers, especially when moving down the road at low speeds."
>
>
> That is surprising. It seems like it is settled science that
> sucker
> fans are more efficient, therefore they should beat the 12 pushers.
>
>
> As an engineer, are sucker fans inherently more efficient? So
> there
> is some reason why my old Mariah pusher fans continue to cool the
> radiator??
>
>
> Very curious, Chuck Engles
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of Stephen
> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 7:35 PM
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiators
>
> Being an engineer who has designed air-cooled heat exchangers I get a
> chuckle out of the logic some of the vendors use. I can easily
> understand
> why Marshall would believe multiple passes would be better - but there
> are
> so many other issues - turbulence being a biggie, and the reality that
> the
> limiting heat transfer coefficient is on the air side, making things
> like
> the heat transfer coefficient of the metals involved a lot less
> important.
>
> As the folks at FlowKooler commented when I was talking to them about
> a
> radiator - it all comes down to cfm of air... Well, perhaps not all,
> but it
> matters a lot.
>
> Which makes the system offered by Pantera Performance (two 13-inch
> sucker
> fans) and Hall (two 12 inch pusher fans) both odds-on favorites.
> Whilst I
> am not about to try to run the calcs, I suspect that the 12 inch
> pushers
> will beat the 13 inch suckers, especially when moving down the road at
> low
> speeds.
>
> Still scratching my head on what to replace the Fluidyne with.
>
> Stephen Nelson
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of Ken
> Green via
> DeTomaso
> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 2:27 PM
> To: marshall smith; GR2835 at comcast.net; detomaso at poca.com; Charles
> McCall
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiators
>
> It seems like experience and opinions on radiator are all over the
> place.
> The Stewart web site
>
> (http://stewartcomponents.com/index.php?route=information/information&inform
> ation_id=13) has a technical article that says benefits from a modern
> multi
> pass radiator are a myth:
>
>
>
>
>
> Tech Tip #5 - Radiators & External Plumbing Radiators Thicker
> radiators do
> have slightly more airflow resistance than thinner radiators but the
> difference is minimal. A 4" radiator has only approximately 10% more
> airflow
> resistance than a 2" radiator.
> In past years, hot rodders and racers would sometimes install a
> thicker
> radiator and actually notice decreased cooling. They erroneously came
> to the
> conclusion that the air could not flow adequately through the thick
> radiator, and therefore became fully heat-saturated before exiting the
> rear
> of the radiator core. The actual explanation for the decreased cooling
> was
> not the air flow, but the coolant flow. The older radiators used the
> narrow
> tube design with larger cross section. Coolant must flow through a
> radiator
> tube at a velocity adequate to create turbulence.
> The turbulence allows the water in the center of the tube to be forced
> against the outside of the tube, which allows for better thermal
> transfer
> between the coolant and the tube surface. The coolant velocity
> actually
> decreases, and subsequently its ability to create the required
> turbulence,
> in direct relation to the increase in thickness. If the thickness of
> the
> core is doubled, the coolant velocity is halved. Modern radiators,
> using
> wide tubes and less cross section area, require less velocity to
> achieve
> optimum thermal transfer. The older radiators benefited from baffling
> inside
> the tanks and forcing the coolant through a serpentine configuration.
> This
> increased velocity and thus the required turbulence was restored.
> Radiators with a higher number of fins will cool better than a
> comparable
> radiator with less fins, assuming it is clean. However, a higher fin
> count
> is very difficult to keep clean. Determining the best compromise
> depends on
> the actual conditions of operation.
> Double pass radiators require 16x more pressure to flow the same
> volume of
> coolant through them, as compared to a single pass radiator. Triple
> pass
> radiators require 64x more pressure to maintain the same volume.
> Automotive
> water pumps are a centrifugal design, not positive displacement, so
> with a
> double pass radiator, the pressure is doubled and flow is reduced by
> approximately 33%. Modern radiator designs, using wide/thin cross
> sections
> tubes, seldom benefit from multiple pass configurations. The decrease
> in
> flow caused by multiple passes offsets any benefits of a high-flow
> water
> pump.
> Gross flow radiators are superior to upright radiators because the
> radiator
> cap is positioned on the low pressure (suction) side of the system.
> This
> prevents the pressure created by a high-flow water pump from forcing
> coolant
> past the radiator cap at high RPM. As mentioned in the radiator cap
> section,
> an upright radiator should be equipped with radiator cap with the
> highest
> pressure rating recommended by the manufacturer. The system will still
> force
> coolant past the cap at sustained high RPM.
>
> Kinda hard to know what the current truth is? Maybe 30 years ago a
> multi-pass was better but not with a modern radiator?
> Ken
> From: marshall smith <marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net>
> To: GR2835 at comcast.net; detomaso at poca.com; Charles McCall
> <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 1:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiators
> In reference to the Independent Antique Radiator described below, I
> would be
> a little skeptical about having only 3 rows and more concerned about
> coolant
> making only one pass through the unit. I believe the coolant should
> make two
> passes through the radiator to properly cool the liquid.
>
> JMHO....
>
> M
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 6/29/15, Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiators
> To: GR2835 at comcast.net, detomaso at poca.com
> Date: Monday, June 29, 2015, 11:27 AM
> Quick reply from
> Mishimoto:
> Charles,
> Thanks for the E-mail!
> Unfortunately, at this time we do not offer an aluminum radiator
> for
> the DeTomaso Pantera. I am sorry for any inconvenience. However,
> I will
> be happy to add your information to our product suggestion list!
> If we
> do decide to come out with a product that matches your
> description, we
> will be sure to contact you!
> Please let me know if there is anything else I can help with!
> Mishimoto strives for the best Customer Service. Have I fully
> resolved
> any questions or concerns you were
> contacting us about today?
> Thanks,
> Gerry - thanks for the info... Quite interested, although a
> little
> turned off by the fact that I would need new tubes under the
> chassis. A
> few years ago I bought all new SS tubing (so that it would never
> wear
> out!!) Let us know how you like it - I'm thinking that Santa
> would be a
> perfect guy to guy shopping for me, so I'm not in a hurry but am
> keeping my eyes open for the best
> solution
> From: GR2835 at comcast.net
> [mailto:GR2835 at comcast.net]
> Sent: lunes, 29 de junio de 2015 17:54
> To: Charles McCall
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiators
> Charles,
> You wanted
> lifetime.........warranty
> Independent Antique Radiator in
> Algonquin, Illinois , will be
> selling an all brass, 3 core, extruded tube (no seams), single
> pass
> radiator that is a direct replacement for a Pantera radiator. It
> even
> has the new dimpled fins for more heat
> dissapation........designed for
> the air conditioning condenser to be mounted in front and sucker
> fans
> recommended by Jon Haas to be mounted behind.
> This radiator has the heat sensor screw in mounted on the
> drivers
> side as recommended by John Haas and included in his radiator fan
> controller kit.
> This radiator requires new
> tubes to be made from the under chassis
> tubes.....Inlet on the passenger side and outlet on the drivers
> side.
> Current prototype is running in my car. The radiator should
> be
> available in about 2 weeks....$650.00 .+ shipping..I can send
> pictures.
> Their warranty
> is unconditional excluding damage not caused by
> manufacture.
> Independent Antique Radiator
> 200 Berg St.
> Algonquin, Il.
> Image removed by
> sender. 847-458-7400
> Gerry
> VP Great Lakes Pantera Club
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> From: "Charles McCall" <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> To: "Al Chelini" <pantera at cox.net>
> Cc: "Mike Drew" <mikeldrew at aol.com>, detomaso at poca.com
> Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 7:29:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiators
> Inquiry sent, Al, thanks. May be in the market for a new
> radiator, as
> mine
> is marking its territory a Little more every day. A lifetime
> warranty
> would
> be fantastic!
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 1:44 PM, Al
> Chelini <pantera at cox.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi, gang,
>> FWIW, I just got thru
> with a leaky radiator project on another
>> (extensively modified)
> make vehicle, which came with a Ron Davis
> (RD)
>> radiator.A That RD
> unit developed some serious leaks along the
> top &
>> bottom ends where the
> side tanks meet the supporting rails; and I
>> thought I'd share this
> learning experience with the group.
>> After calling RD's
> Customer Support seeking repairs, I found that:
>> 1) they can't repair an
> aluminum radiator once it's come in
> contact
>> with radiator coolant.
> They claim it contaminates the metal,
> making it
>> impossible to TIG weld
> successfully.
>> 2) they will be happy to
> sell me a new unit .....A about $1000,
>> delivered.A But,
> with only their standard 90 day limited
> warranty.
>> Kinda' chintzy policy
> for such an expensive part, when the GM
>> replacement version is
> only $150. Are these things considered a
>> consumable, like brake
> pads?
>> 3) On a recommendation
> from a trusted source, I picked up a
> Mishimoto
>> radiator for about 40%
> the cost of a new RD, and it has a Lifetime
>> warranty. Everyone who
> has seen the new part claims that the
>> workmanship is superior
> to the RD.A
>> 4) But, I checked the
> [1]mishimoto.com website, they don't offer
> one
>> for the Pantera
> (yet).A But, I did leave an email suggesting that
> they
>> market one.
>> Here's the pitch: Maybe
> if a few other list members would contact
> them
>> expressing a desire to
> buy their Pantera version, they might be
>> motivated to start
> producing them. They make radiators for cars
> which
>> are much lower volume
> than the Pantera.
>> Bonus: Mishimoto is a
> huge company, and their customer service is
>> outstanding. The
> Lifetime warranty sold me.
>> Final thought:
>> The OEM Pantera radiator
> is a very good part; but, some of these
> were
>> not built correctly.
> Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) #8, article
> 61
>> describes a correcting
> modification which can be done by a
> competent
>> radiator shop.
>> FWIW,
>> Al (3915)
>>
> ==================================================================
>> On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at
> 1:26 AM, michael barnes
>> <[2]michaelbarnessrt10 at hotmail.co.uk>
> wrote:
>>
>> I bought a
> Superior radiator,it was made upside down so
> obviously
>> wouldn't fit
> .After sales was shocking , three months and no
>> replacement d-!
>> Sent by Michael
> Barnes
>>> On 29 Jun
> 2015, at 07:05, Ed Mendez <[3]edducati at mac.com>
> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a
> stock radiator for sale if anyone interested. It has
> a
>> radiator cap on
> it which weird but I suppose you can weld that
> off?
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jun
> 28, 2015, at 21:10, marshallgsmith
>> <[4]marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A
> Don't discount the original radiator. It is very good and
> has
>> cooled my
>>>> A
> car for many years.All that is needed is modern day high
> volume
>> fans.
>>>>
>>>> A
> Marshall
>>>>
>>>> A
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>>>>
>>>> A
> -------- Original message --------
>>>> A
> From: Julian Kift <[5]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
>>>> A
> Date: 06/28/2015 8:52 PM (GMT-08:00)
>>>> A
> To: [6]mikeldrew at aol.com,
> [7]steve at snclocks.com,
>> [8]detomaso at poca.com
>>>> A
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiators
>>>> A
> For other options in aluminum Ron Davies makes a nice
> radiator
>> for the
>>>> A
> Pantera by all accounts and Superior Radiator sells their
>> version on
>>>> A
> eBay with some happy customers.
>>>> A
> Julian
>>>> A
> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 21:10:23 -0400
>>>> A
> To: [9]steve at snclocks.com;
> [10]detomaso at poca.com
>>>> A
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiators
>>>> A
> From: [11]detomaso at poca.com
>>>> A
> In a message dated 6/28/15 15 34 37, [12]steve at snclocks.com
>> writes:
>>>>>
> Whilst I am enjoying driving 5332, I noticed that I have a
> seep
>> from
>>>>>
> where one of the radiator tubes enters the header tank.A
> Looks
>> like
>>>> A
> it has been
>>>>>
> there a while, small seep, but left a puddle when I ran the
>> engine at
>>>> A
> 1500
>>>>> rpm
> for 10 minutes to charge the a/c.A It's a Fluidyne
>> radiator,
>>>> A
> bought
>>>>> and
> installed in 2011, with perhaps 4,000 miles on it.
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Bummer.A A Many have discovered
> to their sadness that
>> Fluidyne
>>>> A
> radiators
>>>> A
> (at least the first-generation models for the Pantera)
> cooled
>> very well
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Forum
> Managed by POCA
>> Posted emails
> must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing
> list
>> [13]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> [14]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> To manage your
> subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
>> etc.) use the
> links above.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at
> 1:26 AM, michael barnes
>> <[15]michaelbarnessrt10 at hotmail.co.uk>
> wrote:
>>
>> I bought a
> Superior radiator,it was made upside down so
> obviously
>> wouldn't fit
> .After sales was shocking , three months and no
>> replacement d-!
>> Sent by Michael
> Barnes
>>> On 29 Jun
> 2015, at 07:05, Ed Mendez <[16]edducati at mac.com>
> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a
> stock radiator for sale if anyone interested. It has
> a
>> radiator cap on
> it which weird but I suppose you can weld that
> off?
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jun
> 28, 2015, at 21:10, marshallgsmith
>> <[17]marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A
> Don't discount the original radiator. It is very good and
> has
>> cooled my
>>>> A
> car for many years.All that is needed is modern day high
> volume
>> fans.
>>>>
>>>> A
> Marshall
>>>>
>>>> A
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>>>>
>>>> A
> -------- Original message --------
>>>> A
> From: Julian Kift <[18]julian_kift at hotmail.com>
>>>> A
> Date: 06/28/2015 8:52 PM (GMT-08:00)
>>>> A
> To: [19]mikeldrew at aol.com,
> [20]steve at snclocks.com,
>> [21]detomaso at poca.com
>>>> A
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiators
>>>> A
> For other options in aluminum Ron Davies makes a nice
> radiator
>> for the
>>>> A
> Pantera by all accounts and Superior Radiator sells their
>> version on
>>>> A
> eBay with some happy customers.
>>>> A
> Julian
>>>> A
> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 21:10:23 -0400
>>>> A
> To: [22]steve at snclocks.com;
> [23]detomaso at poca.com
>>>> A
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Radiators
>>>> A
> From: [24]detomaso at poca.com
>>>> A
> In a message dated 6/28/15 15 34 37, [25]steve at snclocks.com
>> writes:
>>>>>
> Whilst I am enjoying driving 5332, I noticed that I have a
> seep
>> from
>>>>>
> where one of the radiator tubes enters the header tank.A
> Looks
>> like
>>>> A
> it has been
>>>>>
> there a while, small seep, but left a puddle when I ran the
>> engine at
>>>> A
> 1500
>>>>> rpm
> for 10 minutes to charge the a/c.A It's a Fluidyne
>> radiator,
>>>> A
> bought
>>>>> and
> installed in 2011, with perhaps 4,000 miles on it.
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Bummer.A A Many have discovered
> to their sadness that
>> Fluidyne
>>>> A
> radiators
>>>> A
> (at least the first-generation models for the Pantera)
> cooled
>> very well
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
>> Detomaso Forum
> Managed by POCA
>> Posted emails
> must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing
> list
>> [26]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> [27]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> To manage your
> subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
>> etc.) use the
> links above.
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. http://mishimoto.com/
>> 2. mailto:michaelbarnessrt10 at hotmail.co.uk
>> 3. mailto:edducati at mac.com
>> 4. mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net
>> 5. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
>> 6. mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
>> 7. mailto:steve at snclocks.com
>> 8. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 9. mailto:steve at snclocks.com
>> 10. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 11. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 12. mailto:steve at snclocks.com
>> 13. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 14. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 15. mailto:michaelbarnessrt10 at hotmail.co.uk
>> 16. mailto:edducati at mac.com
>> 17. mailto:marshallgsmith at sbcglobal.net
>> 18. mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com
>> 19. mailto:mikeldrew at aol.com
>> 20. mailto:steve at snclocks.com
>> 21. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 22. mailto:steve at snclocks.com
>> 23. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 24. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 25. mailto:steve at snclocks.com
>> 26. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 27. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5
> Megabytes
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>
>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
>> etc.)
> use
>> the links above.
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5
> Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.)
> use the links above.
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
> etc.) use
> the links above.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use
> the links above.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use
> the links above.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
More information about the DeTomaso
mailing list