[DeTomaso] Kirby's new engine (Re: NPC, but it's a Ford!)
Kirby Schrader
kirby.schrader at gmail.com
Mon Jan 26 11:05:49 EST 2015
Hmmmm... I answered below each of your questions.
What other questions do you have?
Exhaust port plates by Price Motorsports.URL provided.
Rockers by T&D. I have more pictures I'll add to the website build saga.
They might explain how they're mounted and assembled better.
Valves are from Victory and are nickel chromate coated. Yes, $$$$.
Later,
Kirby
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 8:33 AM, Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com> wrote:
> The heads... you missed all the questions on the heads. :)
> Mostly I'm interested in the rocker arm assemblies used, where they come
> from, how they mount and if the stock pedestals need machining. It looks
> like they do but when it's all assembled it's hard to tell.
>
> Asa Jay
>
> Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> & Shelley Marie
> Spokane, WA
> ******************************
> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
>
>
> On 1/26/2015 5:30 AM, Kirby Schrader wrote:
>
>> Asa Jay,
>>
>> I forgot to mention that the heads also have titanium valves.
>>
>> What else ya' need to know?
>> :-)
>>
>> Kirby
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 5:54 AM, Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com
>> <mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Asa Jay,
>>
>> So many questions!
>>
>> The engine is based on a tried and true formula that Tom Upton has
>> used successfully. He’s been through the pain and expense of
>> finding out what works and what doesn’t. For example, don’t even
>> mention a Cleveland block to him. He went through 6 engines in 2
>> years trying to get a Cleveland to run.
>>
>> This engine is to meet CVAR vintage and is all iron, 354cubic
>> inch. I have been given hell for not putting it on the dyno, but
>> Tom has done that extensively on a previous engine. My goal was
>> not to chase HP. I wanted something I believed would be reliable
>> and still perform.
>> He made over 650HP with a previous build and he believes his
>> current one is closer to 700. He runs 14:1, I’m at just over
>> 12.5:1. Reliability in mind.
>> Bore is 4.133 and stroke is 3.300. Tom says the engine should be
>> good for 9,000rpm, but I have an 8000rpm limiter in the MSD.
>> The crankshaft is one I also got from Roush. It’s a lightweight
>> from Bryant and uses 302 main bearings with Honda rod bearings.
>> All small diameter to reduce bearing velocity.
>>
>> On Jan 25, 2015, at 22:44, Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com
>>> <mailto:asajay at asajay.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Kirby,
>>> Nice photos and a lot of detail left out for the unwashed masses.
>>>
>>> Points I picked up:
>>> - Drilling the main journals for direct oil squirting to the
>>> pistons and slotting it to provide the oil. Nice touch, I'd
>>> always thought it was done through the rod.
>>> - Needle bearings for the cam; I've always wanted to use those,
>>> let us know how they work out.
>>>
>> Tom has used them for years and insists on them. The cam thrust
>> plate is a Danny Bee and it has needle bearings, too.
>>
>> - Using feeler gauges to prevent twisting of the rod ends while
>>> torquing.
>>> - Chamferring the rod ends with a lathe to clear the crank
>>> - Plastigage showed less clearance than the math method (I
>>> presume), meaning it's best to add .0005 to anything you read
>>> with plastigage; good to know.
>>>
>>> And now the unanswered questions:
>>> - What kind of core plugs were used? You mentioned o-ring style
>>> but I've never seen anything like that.
>>>
>> They came with the siamese Ford Motorsports SVO block. They are
>> aluminum.
>> By the way, this block has been discontinued. I think I got one of
>> the last ones from Roush.
>>
>> - Detail on the exhaust port side of the head. It looks like the
>>> method used was the one where the ports are sawed off and a
>>> replacement plate is put on raising the ports. Can you provide
>>> more detail there?
>>>
>> Yes, the head is milled away and aluminum port plates are bolted
>> one with hitemp RTV to seal. I sent my 4V heads to Price Motorsports.
>> They will mill the heads for you and supply the required studs and
>> port plate. They will not port the heads anymore… I had USA Racing
>> here in Houston do that.
>> http://www.pricemotorsport.com
>>
>> - Stock 4V Cleveland heads?
>>>
>> They used to be, yes.
>>
>> What rocker arm solution did you use?
>>>
>> They are the latest version of T&D’s shaft mounted rockers. 1.75
>> The intakes are all mounted on a single machined piece and the
>> exhausts are bolted down and then bolted to the intakes.
>>
>> It looks nice but I can't quite figure out how it goes on?
>>>
>> Bolt down the intake bracket, then bolt the exhausts to it. You
>> have to shim them to get the right rocker arm height.
>> Then you get the correct length pushrod based on that.
>> The older style T&D’s required getting everything set up and then
>> you welded them together. This version does not require welding.
>>
>> Is machining of the stock pedestals required?
>>>
>> Yes, as you would with any other stock replacement.
>>
>> - Was it a roller cam?
>>>
>> Yes, solid roller cam from Bullit.
>>
>> What lifters did you use? it's apparent they are tied together
>>> but I don't think I've ever seen that style before.
>>>
>> They are Jessel and they are also offset to improve the pushrod angle.
>>
>> - Dry sump pan?
>>>
>> Yes, it’s an aluminum one from Stef’s.
>>
>> Can you provide more detail? Is the pan baffled? How?
>>>
>> No, there is just a screen to catch the ‘big stuff’ and then two
>> scavenging ports; one at the front and one at the back.
>> There’s hardly any volume there and the pump pulls it out
>> immediately anyway..
>>
>> - I know we've talked about this before, but.... assuming
>>> tapered seat plugs, how did you index them? I thought you had to
>>> have the heads off to index them, how did you do it? (I've
>>> -never- done it mind you).
>>>
>> You can do it in the engine, but it’s more of a pain. I did mine
>> with the engine on a stand.
>> I have three spare sets ready to go.
>> You buy a shitload of spark plugs. You mark the plug with a magic
>> marker. I do it so the plug mark is pointing down when it is
>> correct so I can see it.
>> Then you screw a plug in. Is the mark where you want it?
>> Then either try the same plug in another cylinder or grab another
>> plug and try again.
>> Eventually, you’ll find a plug that indexes correctly for each
>> cylinder. I have them marked and ready in a bag.
>> This Summit video describes it pretty well.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys4GnIk_YC0
>>
>> - Oh, and I assume this was a stroker. Correct?
>>>
>> No, see above. 4.133 x 3.300
>>
>> Again, nice photos. Let us know what the chassis dyno numbers
>>> come out to. :)
>>>
>> That probably won’t happen. I’m scrambling to get the car finished
>> up and checked out for the next CVAR race in February.
>>
>> Later,
>> Kirby
>>
>> On 1/25/2015 5:59 PM, Kirby Schrader wrote:
>>>
>>>> Chuck,
>>>>
>>>> Maybe not so exciting and less hard on tires, but another
>>>> Ford started
>>>> today.
>>>>
>>>> First time startup and it lives.
>>>>
>>>> Now for Weber tuning.
>>>>
>>>> [1]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/
>>>> kirbyschrader/Pantera/racecar%20eng
>>>> ine/index.html
>>>>
>>>> Damned phone ran out of memory... Now that I've deleted all those
>>>> Rolling Stones albums, I have 3GB free.
>>>>
>>>> Larger movie next time.
>>>>
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Kirby
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 25, 2015, at 19:49, Charles Engles<[2]cengles at cox.net
>>>> <mailto:cengles at cox.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Chris,
>>>> I had grown forlorn with the lethargy of the
>>>> Forum today,
>>>> but......you certainly compensated for it. Wow. Be sure to
>>>> see the
>>>> companion link/video by Chris Harris discussing the Mustang's
>>>> specifics.
>>>> Fascinating. I need one of those.
>>>> Thanks for sharing, Chuck Engles
>>>>
>>>> References
>>>>
>>>> 1.
>>>> http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/Pantera/
>>>> racecar%20engine/index.html
>>>> 2. mailto:cengles at cox.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com <mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com>
>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>>>
>>>> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
>>>> etc.) use the links above.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> No virus found in this message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>>>> Version: 2015.0.5645 / Virus Database: 4273/8999 - Release Date:
>>>> 01/25/15
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
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>>
>>
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>> Version: 2015.0.5646 / Virus Database: 4273/9001 - Release Date: 01/26/15
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
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-------------- next part --------------
Hmmmm... I answered below each of your questions.
What other questions do you have?
Exhaust port plates by Price Motorsports.URL provided.
Rockers by T&D. I have more pictures I'll add to the website build
saga.
They might explain how they're mounted and assembled better.
Valves are from Victory and are nickel chromate coated. Yes, $$$$.
Later,
Kirby
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 8:33 AM, Asa Jay Laughton
<[1]asajay at asajay.com> wrote:
The heads... you missed all the questions on the heads. :)
Mostly I'm interested in the rocker arm assemblies used, where they
come from, how they mount and if the stock pedestals need
machining.A It looks like they do but when it's all assembled it's
hard to tell.
AsaA Jay
Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
&A Shelley Marie
Spokane, WA
******************************
[2]http://www.racingagainstautism.com
[3]http://www.teampanteraracing.com
[4]http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
On 1/26/2015 5:30 AM, Kirby Schrader wrote:
Asa Jay,
I forgot to mention that the heads also have titanium valves.
What else ya' need to know?
:-)
Kirby
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 5:54 AM, Kirby Schrader
<[5]kirby.schrader at gmail.com <mailto:[6]kirby.schrader at gmail.com>>
wrote:
A A Asa Jay,
A A So many questions!
A A The engine is based on a tried and true formula that Tom Upton
has
A A used successfully. Heas been through the pain and expense of
A A finding out what works and what doesnat. For example, donat
even
A A mention a Cleveland block to him. He went through 6 engines in
2
A A years trying to get a Cleveland to run.
A A This engine is to meet CVAR vintage and is all iron, 354cubic
A A inch. I have been given hell for not putting it on the dyno,
but
A A Tom has done that extensively on a previous engine. My goal
was
A A not to chase HP. I wanted something I believed would be
reliable
A A and still perform.
A A He made over 650HP with a previous build and he believes his
A A current one is closer to 700. He runs 14:1, Iam at just over
A A 12.5:1. Reliability in mind.
A A Bore is 4.133 and stroke is 3.300. Tom says the engine should
be
A A good for 9,000rpm, but I have an 8000rpm limiter in the MSD.
A A The crankshaft is one I also got from Roush. Itas a
lightweight
A A from Bryant and uses 302 main bearings with Honda rod
bearings.
A A All small diameter to reduce bearing velocity.
A A On Jan 25, 2015, at 22:44, Asa Jay Laughton
<[7]asajay at asajay.com
A A <mailto:[8]asajay at asajay.com>> wrote:
A A Kirby,
A A Nice photos and a lot of detail left out for the unwashed masses.
A A Points I picked up:
A A - Drilling the main journals for direct oil squirting to the
A A pistons and slotting it to provide the oil.A Nice touch, I'd
A A always thought it was done through the rod.
A A - Needle bearings for the cam; I've always wanted to use those,
A A let us know how they work out.
A A Tom has used them for years and insists on them. The cam thrust
A A plate is a Danny Bee and it has needle bearings, too.
A A - Using feeler gauges to prevent twisting of the rod ends
while
A A torquing.
A A - Chamferring the rod ends with a lathe to clear the crank
A A - Plastigage showed less clearance than the math method (I
A A presume), meaning it's best to add .0005 to anything you read
A A with plastigage; good to know.
A A And now the unanswered questions:
A A - What kind of core plugs were used?A You mentioned o-ring
style
A A but I've never seen anything like that.
A A They came with the siamese Ford Motorsports SVO block. They are
A A aluminum.
A A By the way, this block has been discontinued. I think I got one
of
A A the last ones from Roush.
A A - Detail on the exhaust port side of the head.A It looks like
the
A A method used was the one where the ports are sawed off and a
A A replacement plate is put on raising the ports.A Can you
provide
A A more detail there?
A A Yes, the head is milled away and aluminum port plates are bolted
A A one with hitemp RTV to seal. I sent my 4V heads to Price
Motorsports.
A A They will mill the heads for you and supply the required studs
and
A A port plate. They will not port the heads anymorea| I had USA
Racing
A A here in Houston do that.
A A [9]http://www.pricemotorsport.com
A A - Stock 4V Cleveland heads?
A A They used to be, yes.
A A A What rocker arm solution did you use?
A A They are the latest version of T&Das shaft mounted rockers. 1.75
A A The intakes are all mounted on a single machined piece and the
A A exhausts are bolted down and then bolted to the intakes.
A A A It looks nice but I can't quite figure out how it goes on?
A A Bolt down the intake bracket, then bolt the exhausts to it. You
A A have to shim them to get the right rocker arm height.
A A Then you get the correct length pushrod based on that.
A A The older style T&Das required getting everything set up and then
A A you welded them together. This version does not require welding.
A A A Is machining of the stock pedestals required?
A A Yes, as you would with any other stock replacement.
A A - Was it a roller cam?
A A Yes, solid roller cam from Bullit.
A A A What lifters did you use?A it's apparent they are tied
together
A A but I don't think I've ever seen that style before.
A A They are Jessel and they are also offset to improve the pushrod
angle.
A A - Dry sump pan?
A A Yes, itas an aluminum one from Stefas.
A A A Can you provide more detail?A Is the pan baffled?A How?
A A No, there is just a screen to catch the abig stuffa and then two
A A scavenging ports; one at the front and one at the back.
A A Thereas hardly any volume there and the pump pulls it out
A A immediately anyway..
A A - I know we've talked about this before, but....A assuming
A A tapered seat plugs, how did you index them?A I thought you
had to
A A have the heads off to index them, how did you do it?A (I've
A A -never- done it mind you).
A A You can do it in the engine, but itas more of a pain. I did mine
A A with the engine on a stand.
A A I have three spare sets ready to go.
A A You buy a shitload of spark plugs.A You mark the plug with a
magic
A A marker. I do it so the plug mark is pointing down when it is
A A correct so I can see it.
A A Then you screw a plug in. Is the mark where you want it?
A A Then either try the same plug in another cylinder or grab another
A A plug and try again.
A A Eventually, youall find a plug that indexes correctly for each
A A cylinder. I have them marked and ready in a bag.
A A This Summit video describes it pretty well.
A A [10]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys4GnIk_YC0
A A - Oh, and I assume this was a stroker.A Correct?
A A No, see above. 4.133 x 3.300
A A Again, nice photos.A Let us know what the chassis dyno
numbers
A A come out to. :)
A A That probably wonat happen. Iam scrambling to get the car
finished
A A up and checked out for the next CVAR race in February.
A A Later,
A A Kirby
A A On 1/25/2015 5:59 PM, Kirby Schrader wrote:
A A A A Chuck,
A A A A Maybe not so exciting and less hard on tires, but another
A A Ford started
A A A A today.
A A A A First time startup and it lives.
A A A A Now for Weber tuning.
A A A
A [1][11]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/Pantera/racecar
%20eng
A A A A ine/index.html
A A A A Damned phone ran out of memory... Now that I've deleted all
those
A A A A Rolling Stones albums, I have 3GB free.
A A A A Larger movie next time.
A A A A :-)
A A A A Regards,
A A A A Kirby
A A A A On Jan 25, 2015, at 19:49, Charles
Engles<[2][12]cengles at cox.net
A A <mailto:[13]cengles at cox.net>>A wrote:
A A A A Dear Chris,
A A A A A A A A A A A I had grown forlorn with the
lethargy of the
A A Forum today,
A A A A but......you certainly compensated for it.A Wow.A Be
sure to
A A see the
A A A A companion link/video by Chris Harris discussing the
Mustang's
A A A A specifics.
A A A A Fascinating.A A I need one of those.
A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Thanks for sharing,A
Chuck Engles
A A References
A A A A 1.
A A
[14]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/Pantera/racecar%2
0engine/index.html
A A A A 2. mailto:[15]cengles at cox.net
A A _______________________________________________
A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A [16]DeTomaso at poca.com <mailto:[17]DeTomaso at poca.com>
A A [18]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe,
A A etc.) use the links above.
A A -----
A A No virus found in this message.
A A Checked by AVG - [19]www.avg.com <[20]http://www.avg.com>
A A Version: 2015.0.5645 / Virus Database: 4273/8999 - Release
Date:
A A 01/25/15
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References
1. mailto:asajay at asajay.com
2. http://www.racingagainstautism.com/
3. http://www.teampanteraracing.com/
4. http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
5. mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com
6. mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com
7. mailto:asajay at asajay.com
8. mailto:asajay at asajay.com
9. http://www.pricemotorsport.com/
10. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys4GnIk_YC0
11. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/Pantera/racecar%20eng
12. mailto:cengles at cox.net
13. mailto:cengles at cox.net
14. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/Pantera/racecar%20engine/index.html
15. mailto:cengles at cox.net
16. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
19. http://www.avg.com/
20. http://www.avg.com/
21. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
22. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
23. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
24. http://www.avg.com/
25. http://www.avg.com/
26. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
27. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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