[DeTomaso] Kirby's new engine (Re: NPC, but it's a Ford!)
Kirby Schrader
kirby.schrader at gmail.com
Mon Jan 26 08:30:30 EST 2015
Asa Jay,
I forgot to mention that the heads also have titanium valves.
What else ya' need to know?
:-)
Kirby
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 5:54 AM, Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Asa Jay,
>
> So many questions!
>
> The engine is based on a tried and true formula that Tom Upton has used
> successfully. He’s been through the pain and expense of finding out what
> works and what doesn’t. For example, don’t even mention a Cleveland block
> to him. He went through 6 engines in 2 years trying to get a Cleveland to
> run.
>
> This engine is to meet CVAR vintage and is all iron, 354cubic inch. I have
> been given hell for not putting it on the dyno, but Tom has done that
> extensively on a previous engine. My goal was not to chase HP. I wanted
> something I believed would be reliable and still perform.
> He made over 650HP with a previous build and he believes his current one
> is closer to 700. He runs 14:1, I’m at just over 12.5:1. Reliability in
> mind.
> Bore is 4.133 and stroke is 3.300. Tom says the engine should be good for
> 9,000rpm, but I have an 8000rpm limiter in the MSD.
> The crankshaft is one I also got from Roush. It’s a lightweight from
> Bryant and uses 302 main bearings with Honda rod bearings.
> All small diameter to reduce bearing velocity.
>
> On Jan 25, 2015, at 22:44, Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com> wrote:
>
> Kirby,
> Nice photos and a lot of detail left out for the unwashed masses.
>
> Points I picked up:
> - Drilling the main journals for direct oil squirting to the pistons and
> slotting it to provide the oil. Nice touch, I'd always thought it was done
> through the rod.
> - Needle bearings for the cam; I've always wanted to use those, let us
> know how they work out.
>
> Tom has used them for years and insists on them. The cam thrust plate is a
> Danny Bee and it has needle bearings, too.
>
> - Using feeler gauges to prevent twisting of the rod ends while torquing.
> - Chamferring the rod ends with a lathe to clear the crank
> - Plastigage showed less clearance than the math method (I presume),
> meaning it's best to add .0005 to anything you read with plastigage; good
> to know.
>
> And now the unanswered questions:
> - What kind of core plugs were used? You mentioned o-ring style but I've
> never seen anything like that.
>
> They came with the siamese Ford Motorsports SVO block. They are aluminum.
> By the way, this block has been discontinued. I think I got one of the
> last ones from Roush.
>
> - Detail on the exhaust port side of the head. It looks like the method
> used was the one where the ports are sawed off and a replacement plate is
> put on raising the ports. Can you provide more detail there?
>
> Yes, the head is milled away and aluminum port plates are bolted one with
> hitemp RTV to seal. I sent my 4V heads to Price Motorsports.
> They will mill the heads for you and supply the required studs and port
> plate. They will not port the heads anymore… I had USA Racing here in
> Houston do that.
> http://www.pricemotorsport.com
>
> - Stock 4V Cleveland heads?
>
> They used to be, yes.
>
> What rocker arm solution did you use?
>
> They are the latest version of T&D’s shaft mounted rockers. 1.75
> The intakes are all mounted on a single machined piece and the exhausts
> are bolted down and then bolted to the intakes.
>
> It looks nice but I can't quite figure out how it goes on?
>
> Bolt down the intake bracket, then bolt the exhausts to it. You have to
> shim them to get the right rocker arm height.
> Then you get the correct length pushrod based on that.
> The older style T&D’s required getting everything set up and then you
> welded them together. This version does not require welding.
>
>
> Is machining of the stock pedestals required?
>
> Yes, as you would with any other stock replacement.
>
> - Was it a roller cam?
>
> Yes, solid roller cam from Bullit.
>
> What lifters did you use? it's apparent they are tied together but I
> don't think I've ever seen that style before.
>
> They are Jessel and they are also offset to improve the pushrod angle.
>
> - Dry sump pan?
>
> Yes, it’s an aluminum one from Stef’s.
>
> Can you provide more detail? Is the pan baffled? How?
>
> No, there is just a screen to catch the ‘big stuff’ and then two
> scavenging ports; one at the front and one at the back.
> There’s hardly any volume there and the pump pulls it out immediately
> anyway..
>
> - I know we've talked about this before, but.... assuming tapered seat
> plugs, how did you index them? I thought you had to have the heads off to
> index them, how did you do it? (I've -never- done it mind you).
>
> You can do it in the engine, but it’s more of a pain. I did mine with the
> engine on a stand.
> I have three spare sets ready to go.
> You buy a shitload of spark plugs. You mark the plug with a magic marker.
> I do it so the plug mark is pointing down when it is correct so I can see
> it.
> Then you screw a plug in. Is the mark where you want it?
> Then either try the same plug in another cylinder or grab another plug and
> try again.
> Eventually, you’ll find a plug that indexes correctly for each cylinder. I
> have them marked and ready in a bag.
> This Summit video describes it pretty well.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys4GnIk_YC0
>
> - Oh, and I assume this was a stroker. Correct?
>
> No, see above. 4.133 x 3.300
>
> Again, nice photos. Let us know what the chassis dyno numbers come out
> to. :)
>
> That probably won’t happen. I’m scrambling to get the car finished up and
> checked out for the next CVAR race in February.
>
> Later,
> Kirby
>
> On 1/25/2015 5:59 PM, Kirby Schrader wrote:
>
> Chuck,
>
> Maybe not so exciting and less hard on tires, but another Ford started
> today.
>
> First time startup and it lives.
>
> Now for Weber tuning.
>
> [1]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/Pantera/racecar%20eng
> ine/index.html
>
> Damned phone ran out of memory... Now that I've deleted all those
> Rolling Stones albums, I have 3GB free.
>
> Larger movie next time.
>
> :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Kirby
>
> On Jan 25, 2015, at 19:49, Charles Engles<[2]cengles at cox.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Chris,
> I had grown forlorn with the lethargy of the Forum today,
> but......you certainly compensated for it. Wow. Be sure to see the
> companion link/video by Chris Harris discussing the Mustang's
> specifics.
> Fascinating. I need one of those.
> Thanks for sharing, Chuck Engles
>
> References
>
> 1.
> http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/Pantera/racecar%20engine/index.html
> 2. mailto:cengles at cox.net <cengles at cox.net>
>
>
>
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-------------- next part --------------
Asa Jay,
I forgot to mention that the heads also have titanium valves.
What else ya' need to know?
:-)
Kirby
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 5:54 AM, Kirby Schrader
<[1]kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
Asa Jay,
So many questions!
The engine is based on a tried and true formula that Tom Upton has used
successfully. Heas been through the pain and expense of finding out
what works and what doesnat. For example, donat even mention a
Cleveland block to him. He went through 6 engines in 2 years trying to
get a Cleveland to run.
This engine is to meet CVAR vintage and is all iron, 354cubic inch. I
have been given hell for not putting it on the dyno, but Tom has done
that extensively on a previous engine. My goal was not to chase HP. I
wanted something I believed would be reliable and still perform.
He made over 650HP with a previous build and he believes his current
one is closer to 700. He runs 14:1, Iam at just over 12.5:1.
Reliability in mind.
Bore is 4.133 and stroke is 3.300. Tom says the engine should be good
for 9,000rpm, but I have an 8000rpm limiter in the MSD.
The crankshaft is one I also got from Roush. Itas a lightweight from
Bryant and uses 302 main bearings with Honda rod bearings.
All small diameter to reduce bearing velocity.
On Jan 25, 2015, at 22:44, Asa Jay Laughton <[2]asajay at asajay.com>
wrote:
Kirby,
Nice photos and a lot of detail left out for the unwashed masses.
Points I picked up:
- Drilling the main journals for direct oil squirting to the pistons
and slotting it to provide the oil.A Nice touch, I'd always thought it
was done through the rod.
- Needle bearings for the cam; I've always wanted to use those, let us
know how they work out.
Tom has used them for years and insists on them. The cam thrust plate
is a Danny Bee and it has needle bearings, too.
- Using feeler gauges to prevent twisting of the rod ends while
torquing.
- Chamferring the rod ends with a lathe to clear the crank
- Plastigage showed less clearance than the math method (I presume),
meaning it's best to add .0005 to anything you read with plastigage;
good to know.
And now the unanswered questions:
- What kind of core plugs were used?A You mentioned o-ring style but
I've never seen anything like that.
They came with the siamese Ford Motorsports SVO block. They are
aluminum.
By the way, this block has been discontinued. I think I got one of the
last ones from Roush.
- Detail on the exhaust port side of the head.A It looks like the
method used was the one where the ports are sawed off and a replacement
plate is put on raising the ports.A Can you provide more detail there?
Yes, the head is milled away and aluminum port plates are bolted one
with hitemp RTV to seal. I sent my 4V heads to Price Motorsports.
They will mill the heads for you and supply the required studs and port
plate. They will not port the heads anymorea| I had USA Racing here in
Houston do that.
[3]http://www.pricemotorsport.com
- Stock 4V Cleveland heads?
They used to be, yes.
A What rocker arm solution did you use?
They are the latest version of T&Das shaft mounted rockers. 1.75
The intakes are all mounted on a single machined piece and the exhausts
are bolted down and then bolted to the intakes.
A It looks nice but I can't quite figure out how it goes on?
Bolt down the intake bracket, then bolt the exhausts to it. You have to
shim them to get the right rocker arm height.
Then you get the correct length pushrod based on that.
The older style T&Das required getting everything set up and then you
welded them together. This version does not require welding.
A
A Is machining of the stock pedestals required?
Yes, as you would with any other stock replacement.
- Was it a roller cam?
Yes, solid roller cam from Bullit.
A What lifters did you use? A it's apparent they are tied together but
I don't think I've ever seen that style before.
They are Jessel and they are also offset to improve the pushrod angle.
- Dry sump pan?
Yes, itas an aluminum one from Stefas.
A Can you provide more detail?A Is the pan baffled?A How?
No, there is just a screen to catch the abig stuffa and then two
scavenging ports; one at the front and one at the back.
Thereas hardly any volume there and the pump pulls it out immediately
anyway..
- I know we've talked about this before, but.... A assuming tapered
seat plugs, how did you index them?A I thought you had to have the
heads off to index them, how did you do it? A (I've -never- done it
mind you).
You can do it in the engine, but itas more of a pain. I did mine with
the engine on a stand.
I have three spare sets ready to go.
You buy a shitload of spark plugs.A You mark the plug with a magic
marker. I do it so the plug mark is pointing down when it is correct so
I can see it.
Then you screw a plug in. Is the mark where you want it?
Then either try the same plug in another cylinder or grab another plug
and try again.
Eventually, youall find a plug that indexes correctly for each
cylinder. I have them marked and ready in a bag.
This Summit video describes it pretty well.
[4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys4GnIk_YC0
- Oh, and I assume this was a stroker.A Correct?
No, see above.A 4.133 x 3.300
Again, nice photos.A Let us know what the chassis dyno numbers come
out to. :)
That probably wonat happen. Iam scrambling to get the car finished up
and checked out for the next CVAR race in February.
Later,
Kirby
On 1/25/2015 5:59 PM, Kirby Schrader wrote:
A A A Chuck,
A A A Maybe not so exciting and less hard on tires, but another Ford
started
A A A today.
A A A First time startup and it lives.
A A A Now for Weber tuning.
A A A [1][5]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/Pantera/r
acecar%20eng
A A A ine/index.html
A A A Damned phone ran out of memory... Now that I've deleted all
those
A A A Rolling Stones albums, I have 3GB free.
A A A Larger movie next time.
A A A :-)
A A A Regards,
A A A Kirby
A A A On Jan 25, 2015, at 19:49, Charles
Engles<[2][6]cengles at cox.net> A wrote:
A A A Dear Chris,
A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A I had grown forlorn with the
lethargy of the Forum today,
A A A but......you certainly compensated for it.A Wow.A Be sure to
see the
A A A companion link/video by Chris Harris discussing the Mustang's
A A A specifics.
A A A Fascinating. A A I need one of those.
A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Thanks for
sharing, A Chuck Engles
References
A A A 1.
[7]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/Pantera/racecar%20
engine/index.html
A A A 2. [8]mailto:cengles at cox.net
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01/25/15
_______________________________________________
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use the links above.
References
1. mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com
2. mailto:asajay at asajay.com
3. http://www.pricemotorsport.com/
4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys4GnIk_YC0
5. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/Pantera/racecar%20eng
6. mailto:cengles at cox.net
7. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/Pantera/racecar%20engine/index.html
8. mailto:cengles at cox.net
9. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
10. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
11. http://www.avg.com/
12. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
13. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
More information about the DeTomaso
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