[DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Richard Greenblum
Richard at richardgreenblum.com
Mon Feb 23 16:10:30 EST 2015
When I worked for FoMoCo in the late 70s, we had a persistent complaint
coming from dealers and through the Customer Care folks who took complaints
on the 1-800 number in the owner's manual about cars simply shutting down,
and not restarting for a while. They'd call for a tow truck and the AAA guy
would try it one more time. Of course, the car started. A few times, the
owner simply got back in, waived off the tow, and attempted to drive home.
A few miles down the road it would quit again. And called for a
towŠŠ.again.
The problem was that the boxes, which were in fact not made by Ford as Jack
pointed out, were filled with a very poor quality resin which expanded when
it got hot, then shrank when it cooled. I certainly don't have to explain
to you guys what that caused. We sure had a lot of justifiably agitated
customers over that problem. Our quality control at that time was as bad as
the industry has ever seen. We couldn't manufacture a decent car with all
the cost-cutting and engineer ignoring going on. It took a long time for
Ford, and the other major automakers, to get back to basics. We couldn't
convince the sales guys that you don't cut costs to increase profit because
no one will want your crap‹build a good car and the public will buy it. I
think they've got it going in the right direction now.
Richard
Austin, TX
#7080
From: Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Date: Monday, February 23, 2015 2:55 PM
To: "JDeRyke at aol. com" <JDeRyke at aol.com>
Cc: deTomaso List <detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Btw, one of the TFI units that went out was a cheap non-Ford part. That was
in the 80's when cheap repos weren't as common.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Feb 23, 2015, at 1:11 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
> wrote:
>
> An interesting option is running a different ECU-box in place of the std-
> whatever it is. in my limited experience, what blows up is the ECU, not the
> distributor and its pickup. So a Ford electronic can be paired with a Ford
> ECU, a MSD or a Chrysler brainbox. MSD distributors can do the same. All
> that's needed is a few minutes on the web to get a conversion diagram for the
> combination you want to run, so the wires all go to the right places. And
> speaking of Ford brainboxes, most that you find in chain auto parts stores &
> on the Web are NOT made by Ford- they're made in various backyard shops in
> Taiwan or India. Ford boxes actually work a little better- likely a legacy of
> better components inside the potted guts. But Ford boxes will still blow up if
> you do something dumb- like leave the key on and the engine off so your stereo
> plays.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mikael <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> To: 'Will Kooiman' <will.kooiman at gmail.com>; 'Don Thomas'
> <don.thomas.ieee at gmail.com>; 'Ken Green' <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Cc: detomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Mon, Feb 23, 2015 9:13 am
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
>
>
> " I would gladly switch to another box that has a better reputation, but I
> don't know of any." Maybe ICE from Australia, sold at MME Racing. Never
> heard one fail. But then again never heard anybody use it. ;-) Which is
> strange because it's a superior product at a higher price, and in this
> community, that's usually the type of products we like. You can adjust the
> dual level rev limit and the timing curve from your seat. I have it on my
> Pantera and my Longchamp.
>
> Mvh/Regards
> Mikael
>
>
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: Will Kooiman [mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com]
> Sendt: 23. februar 2015 16:24
> Til: Don Thomas; Ken Green
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com; mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
>
> I had 2 Mallory HiFire digital 6 boxes fail - in 2 separate cars, my 67
> Mustang and my Pantera.
>
> I had an 84 Mustang 2.3L turbo that got hot and the TFI unit on the side of
> the distributor failed. I replaced it, and the replacement was bad too.
> So, we replaced it again, and the 2nd replacement was good.
>
> I've run MSD 6AL on 3 cars now, and so far they haven't failed.
>
> I like the MSD (or similar box) because a) they sometimes come with start
> retard, b) they seem to run better where I spend the most time - below
> 4,000 rpm and c) they have a built-in rev limiter.
>
> I would gladly switch to another box that has a better reputation, but I
> don't know of any.
> --
> Will
>
>
>
>
>
>> On 2/23/15 10:12 AM, "Don Thomas" <don.thomas.ieee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Here is one redundant system on e-bay.
>> [1]http://www.ebay.com/itm/141426581678
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Ken Green via DeTomaso
>> <[2]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
>>
>> A A Has anyone compared the failure rate on MSD ignitions to the
>> location?
>> A A Maybe in a hot Pantera engine compartment, the life is
>> reduced.A A lot
>> A A of professional racers use (or at least used to use in the
>> A A past) redundant MSD ignition systems that let them switch at
>> any
>> A A moment.A I assume if there was something as good or better,
>> they would
>> A A use it.
>> A A Ken
>> A A
>> A
> __________________________________________________________________
>> A A From: Pantdino via DeTomaso <[3]detomaso at poca.com>
>> A A To: [4]charlesmccall at gmail.com; [5]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov;
>> A A [6]andymay24 at gmail.com; [7]detomaso at poca.com;
>> [8]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> A A Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 1:42 PM
>> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for
> suggestions
>> A A A There are tens or hundreds of millions of cars running
>> around with
>> A A A electronic ignition systems with a failure rate of
>> essentially zero.
>> A A A If the rate for MSDs is even 1% per year it is probably
> 100-
>> 1000
>> A A times
>> A A A higher than the other systems.
>> A A A Why would anyone use one?A Doesn't it revert to single
>> spark mode at
>> A A A like 4K anyway?A What is the point?'
>> A A A Jim Oddie
>> A A A -----Original Message-----
>>
>> A A A From: Charles McCall <[1][9]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>> A A A To: 'Himes, Terry (397C)' (397C)'
>> <[2][10]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>;
>> A A 'Andy
>> A A A May' <[3][11]andymay24 at gmail.com>; detomaso
>> <[4][12]detomaso at poca.com>;
>> A A 'Mikael'
>> A A A <[5][13]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
>> A A A Sent: Sun, Feb 22, 2015 12:56 pm
>> A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for
> suggestions
>> A A A Terry -
>> A A A I had a similar discussion off-line with a forum member
> when I
>> A A A mentioned that I'd had 2 MSD boxes go bad in the 15 years
> I've
>> been
>> A A A running them. He mentioned that there were numerous cases of
>> MSD
>> A A boxes
>> A A A failing, and I've heard them as well.
>> A A A What I don't have are facts or data with respect to failure
>> rates. Do
>> A A A we hear about MSD boxes failing because they are 4 times as
>> popular
>> A A as
>> A A A the nearest competitor and that's why we hear about them?
> If we
>> only
>> A A A base our opinions on "background noise" or reported issues
> on a
>> A A forum,
>> A A A then Panteras are not terribly reliable, so we need to look
> for
>> data.
>> A A A Does anyone know if there are any objective studies
> regarding
>> failure
>> A A A rate per year, or miles, or something?
>> A A A The previous box failed (I believe) because someone welded
> on
>> the car
>> A A A without disconnecting the unit, something we are warned not
> to
>> do.
>> A A This
>> A A A box I had no explanation. Happy to change units if there are
>> A A objective
>> A A A facts that demonstrate that someone else has a better
> product.
>> Any
>> A A A thoughts?
>>
>> A A A From: Himes, Terry (397C)
>> [[1]mailto:[6][14]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov]
>> A A A Sent: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2015 21:35
>> A A A To: Charles McCall; 'Andy May';
> [2][7][15]detomaso at poca.com;
>> Mikael
>> A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for
>> suggestions
>> A A A Exactly why I don't run MSD.A I have heard many many
>> stories just
>> A A like
>> A A A this.
>> A A A (only my personal preference.A no flames)
>> A A A Thanks Charles for sharing.
>> A A A "Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
>> A A A A exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has
>> tried
>> A A A A to contact us!"
>> A A A Terry W. HimesA
> [cid:[3][8]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150]
>> A A A JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
>> A A A InSight Sequence Team Lead
>> A A A Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
>> A A A Phone: [16](818) 393-6261
>> A A A Cell:A A [17](818) 653-8213
>> A A A Fax:A A [18](818) 393-3147
>> A A A [1][4][9][19]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> A A A d--od-,
>> A A A From: Charles McCall
> <[2][5][10][20]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>> A A A Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:38 AM
>> A A A To: 'Andy May' <[3][6][11][21]andymay24 at gmail.com>,
>> A A "[4][7][12][22]detomaso at poca.com"
>> A A A <[5][8][13][23]detomaso at poca.com>, Mikael
>> A A <[6][9][14][24]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
>>
>> A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for
> suggestions
>> A A A Hi all
>> A A A Last fall, I commented that my engine wasn't running well.
>> Symptoms
>> A A may
>> A A A be found in the e-mail below, and consensus was that they
>> sounded
>> A A carb
>> A A A related, or perhaps timing related, and a number of people
>> offered
>> A A A suggestions. But the symptoms were sort of strange and
> didn't
>> seem to
>> A A A perfectly fit any of the theories as to the problem.
>> A A A On a whim, over the winter I changed the MSD 6-AL electronic
>> A A ignition,
>> A A A since I had a spare and since the last time it failed, it
> gave
>> some
>> A A A really weird symptoms; erratic and sporadic problems. I sent
>> the box
>> A A to
>> A A A MSD over Christmas for analysis and they confirmed that it
>> failed
>> A A their
>> A A A test and had some issues. OK, sounds promising but was that
> the
>> cause
>> A A A of my problems?
>> A A A It's been a harsh and snowy winter, but it has rained all
> week,
>> which
>> A A A cleaned most of the salt from the roads. So I took the car
> out
>> today.
>> A A A I'll feel better after a longer trip, but the first
> impression
>> is
>> A A very
>> A A A positive. The hesitation and stumbling is gone, no starting
>> problems,
>> A A A and the car ran very very well. I'm cautiously saying that
> the
>> A A problem
>> A A A has been fixed.
>> A A A I wanted to leave for posterity the fact that when the MSD
> box
>> fails,
>> A A A it isn't always catastrophic. It would actually almost be
>> preferable
>> A A if
>> A A A it would, since I have a spare it and it would make the
> problem
>> a
>> A A A little more obvious. When they start to fail they get flaky
> -
>> A A symptoms
>> A A A that come and go. Both times they have failed I have
> started by
>> A A A inspecting from top to bottom my carb, since the symptoms
>> pointed in
>> A A A that direction. Have an engine problem that you can't
>> eliminate? Try
>> A A A looking at your electronic ignition if you have it - it can
>> cause all
>> A A A kinds of weird running issues.
>> A A A Thanks to all who answered
>> A A A A A Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the
> hotel
>> parking
>> A A A lot I
>> A A A A A really thought that we'd have to skip today's event
>> because it
>> A A A wouldn't
>> A A A A A start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about
>> starting.
>> A A A Took
>> A A A A A probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it
>> fired.
>> A A A Yesterday
>> A A A A A at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start,
>> something that
>> A A has
>> A A A A A never, ever happened before. It is really hard to
>> describe the
>> A A A problem
>> A A A A A so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
>> A A A A A A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend
> to
>> stumble
>> A A if I
>> A A A A A would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and
> pull.
>> For
>> A A A example,
>> A A A A A I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when
> blipping
>> the
>> A A throttle
>> A A A it
>> A A A A A would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a
>> little
>> A A rougher,
>> A A A as
>> A A A A A though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't
>> remember if
>> A A A this
>> A A A A A was before or after I did a short tune-up, by
> adjusting
>> the valve
>> A A A lash
>> A A A A A (I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air
>> filter by
>> A A A A A applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant.
> So
>> I was
>> A A A messing
>> A A A A A around in the engine bay recently...
>> A A A A A This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It
> felt
>> like it
>> A A A would
>> A A A A A stumble under partial throttle as well. It would
> stumble
>> a little
>> A A A bit
>> A A A A A under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I
>> don't think
>> A A it
>> A A A is
>> A A A A A a clogged fuel filter.
>> A A A A A Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water
> temp
>> is
>> A A perfect.
>> A A A A A The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas
> from
>> idle,
>> A A A it'll
>> A A A A A stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated
>> and soft,
>> A A if
>> A A A A A that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it
>> A A occasionally
>> A A A A A stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It
>> pulls hard
>> A A A when
>> A A A A A accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used
> to, or
>> as high
>> A A (I
>> A A A A A have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used
> to
>> pull
>> A A very
>> A A A A A easily to).
>> A A A A A Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info
>> that would
>> A A A help
>> A A A A A in troubleshooting?
>> A A A !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
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>> A
> [10][13][18][28]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A References
>> A A A 1. [14]mailto:[19][29]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> A A A 2. [15]mailto:[20][30]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> A A A 3. [16]mailto:[21][31]andymay24 at gmail.com
>> A A A 4. [17]mailto:[22][32]detomaso at poca.com
>> A A A 5. [18]mailto:[23][33]detomaso at poca.com
>> A A A 6. [19]mailto:[24][34]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> A A A 7. [20]mailto:[25][35]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A A A 8.
>> [21][26][36]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A A 9. [22]mailto:[27][37]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A A A 10.
>> [23][28][38]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A _______________________________________________
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>> A A A 2. mailto:[32][42]detomaso at poca.com
>> A A A 3. mailto:[33]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
>> A A A 4. mailto:[34][43]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> A A A 5. mailto:[35][44]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> A A A 6. mailto:[36][45]andymay24 at gmail.com
>> A A A 7. mailto:[37][46]detomaso at poca.com
>> A A A 8. mailto:[38][47]detomaso at poca.com
>> A A A 9. mailto:[39][48]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> A A A 10. mailto:[40][49]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A A A 11.
>> [41][50]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A A 12. mailto:[42][51]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A A A 13.
>> [43][52]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A A 14. mailto:[44][53]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov?
>> A A A 15. mailto:[45][54]charlesmccall at gmail.com?
>> A A A 16. mailto:[46][55]andymay24 at gmail.com?
>> A A A 17. mailto:[47][56]detomaso at poca.com?
>> A A A 18. mailto:[48][57]detomaso at poca.com?
>> A A A 19. mailto:[49][58]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk?
>> A A A 20. mailto:[50][59]DeTomaso at poca.com?
>> A A A 21.
>> [51][60]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A A 22. mailto:[52][61]DeTomaso at poca.com?
>> A A A 23.
>> [53][62]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A A A 24. mailto:[54][63]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A A A 25.
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>> References
>> A A 1. mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> A A 2. mailto:[68]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> A A 3. mailto:[69]andymay24 at gmail.com
>> A A 4. mailto:[70]detomaso at poca.com
>> A A 5. mailto:[71]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> A A 6. mailto:[72]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> A A 7. mailto:[73]detomaso at poca.com
>> A A 8. mailto:[74]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
>> A A 9. mailto:[75]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> A 10. mailto:[76]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> A 11. mailto:[77]andymay24 at gmail.com
>> A 12. mailto:[78]detomaso at poca.com
>> A 13. mailto:[79]detomaso at poca.com
>> A 14. mailto:[80]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> A 15. mailto:[81]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 16. [82]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 17. mailto:[83]DeTomaso at poca.com
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>> A 19. mailto:[85]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> A 20. mailto:[86]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> A 21. mailto:[87]andymay24 at gmail.com
>> A 22. mailto:[88]detomaso at poca.com
>> A 23. mailto:[89]detomaso at poca.com
>> A 24. mailto:[90]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> A 25. mailto:[91]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 26. [92]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 27. mailto:[93]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 28. [94]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 29. mailto:[95]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> A 30. [96]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> A 31. mailto:[97]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> A 32. mailto:[98]detomaso at poca.com
>> A 33. mailto:[99]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
>> A 34. mailto:[100]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> A 35. mailto:[101]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> A 36. mailto:[102]andymay24 at gmail.com
>> A 37. mailto:[103]detomaso at poca.com
>> A 38. mailto:[104]detomaso at poca.com
>> A 39. mailto:[105]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> A 40. mailto:[106]DeTomaso at poca.com
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>> A 44. mailto:[110]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> A 45. mailto:[111]charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> A 46. mailto:[112]andymay24 at gmail.com
>> A 47. mailto:[113]detomaso at poca.com
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>> A 49. mailto:[115]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
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>> A 55. [121]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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>> References
>>
>> 1. http://www.ebay.com/itm/141426581678
>> 2. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 3. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 4. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 5. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> 6. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
>> 7. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 8. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> 9. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 10. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> 11. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
>> 12. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 13. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> 14. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> 15. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 16. tel:%28818%29%20393-6261
>> 17. tel:%28818%29%20653-8213
>> 18. tel:%28818%29%20393-3147
>> 19. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> 20. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 21. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
>> 22. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 23. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 24. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
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>> 30. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 31. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
>> 32. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 33. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 34. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> 35. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 36. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 37. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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>> 40. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 41. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> 42. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 43. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> 44. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 45. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
>> 46. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 47. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 48. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> 49. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 50. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 51. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 52. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 53. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> 54. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 55. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
>> 56. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 57. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 58. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> 59. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 60. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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>> 65. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 66. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 67. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 68. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> 69. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
>> 70. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 71. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> 72. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> 73. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 74. mailto:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
>> 75. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> 76. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 77. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
>> 78. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 79. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 80. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> 81. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 82. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 83. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 84. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 85. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> 86. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 87. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
>> 88. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 89. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 90. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> 91. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 92. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 93. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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>> 96. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 97. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> 98. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 99. mailto:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
>> 100. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> 101. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 102. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
>> 103. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 104. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 105. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> 106. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 107. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 108. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 109. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> 110. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>> 111. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>> 112. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
>> 113. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 114. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>> 115. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
>> 116. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 117. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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-------------- next part --------------
When I worked for FoMoCo in the late 70s, we had a persistent complaint
coming from dealers and through the Customer Care folks who took
complaints on the 1-800 number in the owner's manual about cars simply
shutting down, and not restarting for a while. They'd call for a tow
truck and the AAA guy would try it one more time. Of course, the car
started. A few times, the owner simply got back in, waived off the
tow, and attempted to drive home. A few miles down the road it would
quit again. And called for a tow.......again.
The problem was that the boxes, which were in fact not made by Ford as
Jack pointed out, were filled with a very poor quality resin which
expanded when it got hot, then shrank when it cooled. I certainly
don't have to explain to you guys what that caused. We sure had a lot
of justifiably agitated customers over that problem. Our quality
control at that time was as bad as the industry has ever seen. We
couldn't manufacture a decent car with all the cost-cutting and
engineer ignoring going on. It took a long time for Ford, and the
other major automakers, to get back to basics. We couldn't convince
the sales guys that you don't cut costs to increase profit because no
one will want your crap--build a good car and the public will buy it.
I think they've got it going in the right direction now.
Richard
Austin, TX
#7080
From: Will Kooiman <[1]will.kooiman at gmail.com>
Date: Monday, February 23, 2015 2:55 PM
To: "JDeRyke at aol. com" <[2]JDeRyke at aol.com>
Cc: deTomaso List <[3]detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Btw, one of the TFI units that went out was a cheap non-Ford
part. That was in the 80's when cheap repos weren't as common.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 23, 2015, at 1:11 PM, Jack DeRyke via DeTomaso
<[4]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
An interesting option is running a different ECU-box in place of the
std- whatever it is. in my limited experience, what blows up is the
ECU, not the distributor and its pickup. So a Ford electronic can be
paired with a Ford ECU, a MSD or a Chrysler brainbox. MSD distributors
can do the same. All that's needed is a few minutes on the web to get a
conversion diagram for the combination you want to run, so the wires
all go to the right places. And speaking of Ford brainboxes, most that
you find in chain auto parts stores & on the Web are NOT made by Ford-
they're made in various backyard shops in Taiwan or India. Ford boxes
actually work a little better- likely a legacy of better components
inside the potted guts. But Ford boxes will still blow up if you do
something dumb- like leave the key on and the engine off so your stereo
plays.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mikael <[5]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
To: 'Will Kooiman' <[6]will.kooiman at gmail.com>; 'Don Thomas'
<[7]don.thomas.ieee at gmail.com>; 'Ken Green' <[8]kenn_green at yahoo.com>
Cc: detomaso <[9]detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Mon, Feb 23, 2015 9:13 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
" I would gladly switch to another box that has a better reputation,
but I
don't know of any." Maybe ICE from Australia, sold at MME Racing. Never
heard one fail. But then again never heard anybody use it. ;-) Which is
strange because it's a superior product at a higher price, and in this
community, that's usually the type of products we like. You can adjust
the
dual level rev limit and the timing curve from your seat. I have it on
my
Pantera and my Longchamp.
Mvh/Regards
Mikael
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Will Kooiman [[10]mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com]
Sendt: 23. februar 2015 16:24
Til: Don Thomas; Ken Green
Cc: [11]detomaso at poca.com; [12]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
I had 2 Mallory HiFire digital 6 boxes fail - in 2 separate cars, my 67
Mustang and my Pantera.
I had an 84 Mustang 2.3L turbo that got hot and the TFI unit on the
side of
the distributor failed. I replaced it, and the replacement was bad
too.
So, we replaced it again, and the 2nd replacement was good.
I've run MSD 6AL on 3 cars now, and so far they haven't failed.
I like the MSD (or similar box) because a) they sometimes come with
start
retard, b) they seem to run better where I spend the most time - below
4,000 rpm and c) they have a built-in rev limiter.
I would gladly switch to another box that has a better reputation, but
I
don't know of any.
--
Will
On 2/23/15 10:12 AM, "Don Thomas" <[13]don.thomas.ieee at gmail.com>
wrote:
Here is one redundant system on e-bay.
[1][14]http://www.ebay.com/itm/141426581678
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Ken Green via DeTomaso
<[2][15]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
A A Has anyone compared the failure rate on MSD ignitions to the
location?
A A Maybe in a hot Pantera engine compartment, the life is
reduced.A A lot
A A of professional racers use (or at least used to use in the
A A past) redundant MSD ignition systems that let them switch at
any
A A moment.A I assume if there was something as good or better,
they would
A A use it.
A A Ken
A A
A
__________________________________________________________________
A A From: Pantdino via DeTomaso <[3][16]detomaso at poca.com>
A A To: [4][17]charlesmccall at gmail.com;
[5][18]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov;
A A [6][19]andymay24 at gmail.com; [7][20]detomaso at poca.com;
[8][21]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
A A Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 1:42 PM
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for
suggestions
A A A There are tens or hundreds of millions of cars running
around with
A A A electronic ignition systems with a failure rate of
essentially zero.
A A A If the rate for MSDs is even 1% per year it is probably
100-
1000
A A times
A A A higher than the other systems.
A A A Why would anyone use one?A Doesn't it revert to single
spark mode at
A A A like 4K anyway?A What is the point?'
A A A Jim Oddie
A A A -----Original Message-----
A A A From: Charles McCall <[1][9][22]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A A A To: 'Himes, Terry (397C)' (397C)'
<[2][10][23]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>;
A A 'Andy
A A A May' <[3][11][24]andymay24 at gmail.com>; detomaso
<[4][12][25]detomaso at poca.com>;
A A 'Mikael'
A A A <[5][13][26]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
A A A Sent: Sun, Feb 22, 2015 12:56 pm
A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for
suggestions
A A A Terry -
A A A I had a similar discussion off-line with a forum member
when I
A A A mentioned that I'd had 2 MSD boxes go bad in the 15 years
I've
been
A A A running them. He mentioned that there were numerous cases of
MSD
A A boxes
A A A failing, and I've heard them as well.
A A A What I don't have are facts or data with respect to failure
rates. Do
A A A we hear about MSD boxes failing because they are 4 times as
popular
A A as
A A A the nearest competitor and that's why we hear about them?
If we
only
A A A base our opinions on "background noise" or reported issues
on a
A A forum,
A A A then Panteras are not terribly reliable, so we need to look
for
data.
A A A Does anyone know if there are any objective studies
regarding
failure
A A A rate per year, or miles, or something?
A A A The previous box failed (I believe) because someone welded
on
the car
A A A without disconnecting the unit, something we are warned not
to
do.
A A This
A A A box I had no explanation. Happy to change units if there are
A A objective
A A A facts that demonstrate that someone else has a better
product.
Any
A A A thoughts?
A A A From: Himes, Terry (397C)
[[1][27]mailto:[6][14]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov]
A A A Sent: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2015 21:35
A A A To: Charles McCall; 'Andy May';
[2][7][15][28]detomaso at poca.com;
Mikael
A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for
suggestions
A A A Exactly why I don't run MSD.A I have heard many many
stories just
A A like
A A A this.
A A A (only my personal preference.A no flames)
A A A Thanks Charles for sharing.
A A A "Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
A A A A exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has
tried
A A A A to contact us!"
A A A Terry W. HimesA
[cid:[3][8][29]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150]
A A A JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
A A A InSight Sequence Team Lead
A A A Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
A A A Phone: [16](818) 393-6261
A A A Cell:A A [17](818) 653-8213
A A A Fax:A A [18](818) 393-3147
A A A [1][4][9][19][30]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
A A A d--od-,
A A A From: Charles McCall
<[2][5][10][20][31]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A A A Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:38 AM
A A A To: 'Andy May' <[3][6][11][21][32]andymay24 at gmail.com>,
A A "[4][7][12][22][33]detomaso at poca.com"
A A A <[5][8][13][23][34]detomaso at poca.com>, Mikael
A A <[6][9][14][24][35]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for
suggestions
A A A Hi all
A A A Last fall, I commented that my engine wasn't running well.
Symptoms
A A may
A A A be found in the e-mail below, and consensus was that they
sounded
A A carb
A A A related, or perhaps timing related, and a number of people
offered
A A A suggestions. But the symptoms were sort of strange and
didn't
seem to
A A A perfectly fit any of the theories as to the problem.
A A A On a whim, over the winter I changed the MSD 6-AL electronic
A A ignition,
A A A since I had a spare and since the last time it failed, it
gave
some
A A A really weird symptoms; erratic and sporadic problems. I sent
the box
A A to
A A A MSD over Christmas for analysis and they confirmed that it
failed
A A their
A A A test and had some issues. OK, sounds promising but was that
the
cause
A A A of my problems?
A A A It's been a harsh and snowy winter, but it has rained all
week,
which
A A A cleaned most of the salt from the roads. So I took the car
out
today.
A A A I'll feel better after a longer trip, but the first
impression
is
A A very
A A A positive. The hesitation and stumbling is gone, no starting
problems,
A A A and the car ran very very well. I'm cautiously saying that
the
A A problem
A A A has been fixed.
A A A I wanted to leave for posterity the fact that when the MSD
box
fails,
A A A it isn't always catastrophic. It would actually almost be
preferable
A A if
A A A it would, since I have a spare it and it would make the
problem
a
A A A little more obvious. When they start to fail they get flaky
-
A A symptoms
A A A that come and go. Both times they have failed I have
started by
A A A inspecting from top to bottom my carb, since the symptoms
pointed in
A A A that direction. Have an engine problem that you can't
eliminate? Try
A A A looking at your electronic ignition if you have it - it can
cause all
A A A kinds of weird running issues.
A A A Thanks to all who answered
A A A A A Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the
hotel
parking
A A A lot I
A A A A A really thought that we'd have to skip today's event
because it
A A A wouldn't
A A A A A start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about
starting.
A A A Took
A A A A A probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it
fired.
A A A Yesterday
A A A A A at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start,
something that
A A has
A A A A A never, ever happened before. It is really hard to
describe the
A A A problem
A A A A A so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
A A A A A A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend
to
stumble
A A if I
A A A A A would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and
pull.
For
A A A example,
A A A A A I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when
blipping
the
A A throttle
A A A it
A A A A A would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a
little
A A rougher,
A A A as
A A A A A though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't
remember if
A A A this
A A A A A was before or after I did a short tune-up, by
adjusting
the valve
A A A lash
A A A A A (I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air
filter by
A A A A A applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant.
So
I was
A A A messing
A A A A A around in the engine bay recently...
A A A A A This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It
felt
like it
A A A would
A A A A A stumble under partial throttle as well. It would
stumble
a little
A A A bit
A A A A A under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I
don't think
A A it
A A A is
A A A A A a clogged fuel filter.
A A A A A Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water
temp
is
A A perfect.
A A A A A The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas
from
idle,
A A A it'll
A A A A A stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated
and soft,
A A if
A A A A A that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it
A A occasionally
A A A A A stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It
pulls hard
A A A when
A A A A A accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used
to, or
as high
A A (I
A A A A A have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used
to
pull
A A very
A A A A A easily to).
A A A A A Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info
that would
A A A help
A A A A A in troubleshooting?
A A A !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
A A A _______________________________________________
A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A A [7][10][15][25][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A
A
[8][11][16][26][37]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
A A A _______________________________________________
A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A A [9][12][17][27][38]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A
A
[10][13][18][28][39]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A References
A A A 1. [14][40]mailto:[19][29]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
A A A 2. [15][41]mailto:[20][30]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A A A 3. [16][42]mailto:[21][31]andymay24 at gmail.com
A A A 4. [17][43]mailto:[22][32]detomaso at poca.com
A A A 5. [18][44]mailto:[23][33]detomaso at poca.com
A A A 6. [19][45]mailto:[24][34]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
A A A 7. [20][46]mailto:[25][35]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A 8.
[21][26][36][47]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A 9. [22][48]mailto:[27][37]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A 10.
[23][28][38][49]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A _______________________________________________
A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A [24][29][39][50]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A
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A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe,
etc.)
A A use the
A A links above.
A A References
A A A 1. [52]mailto:[31][41]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov?
A A A 2. [53]mailto:[32][42]detomaso at poca.com
A A A 3. [54]mailto:[33]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
A A A 4. [55]mailto:[34][43]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
A A A 5. [56]mailto:[35][44]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A A A 6. [57]mailto:[36][45]andymay24 at gmail.com
A A A 7. [58]mailto:[37][46]detomaso at poca.com
A A A 8. [59]mailto:[38][47]detomaso at poca.com
A A A 9. [60]mailto:[39][48]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
A A A 10. [61]mailto:[40][49]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A 11.
[41][50][62]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A 12. [63]mailto:[42][51]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A 13.
[43][52][64]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A 14. [65]mailto:[44][53]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov?
A A A 15. [66]mailto:[45][54]charlesmccall at gmail.com?
A A A 16. [67]mailto:[46][55]andymay24 at gmail.com?
A A A 17. [68]mailto:[47][56]detomaso at poca.com?
A A A 18. [69]mailto:[48][57]detomaso at poca.com?
A A A 19. [70]mailto:[49][58]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk?
A A A 20. [71]mailto:[50][59]DeTomaso at poca.com?
A A A 21.
[51][60][72]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A 22. [73]mailto:[52][61]DeTomaso at poca.com?
A A A 23.
[53][62][74]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A 24. [75]mailto:[54][63]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A 25.
[55][64][76]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A _______________________________________________
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unsubscribe,
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References
A A 1. [79]mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A A 2. [80]mailto:[68]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
A A 3. [81]mailto:[69]andymay24 at gmail.com
A A 4. [82]mailto:[70]detomaso at poca.com
A A 5. [83]mailto:[71]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
A A 6. [84]mailto:[72]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
A A 7. [85]mailto:[73]detomaso at poca.com
A A 8. [86]mailto:[74]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
A A 9. [87]mailto:[75]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
A 10. [88]mailto:[76]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A 11. [89]mailto:[77]andymay24 at gmail.com
A 12. [90]mailto:[78]detomaso at poca.com
A 13. [91]mailto:[79]detomaso at poca.com
A 14. [92]mailto:[80]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
A 15. [93]mailto:[81]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 16. [82][94]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 17. [95]mailto:[83]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 18. [84][96]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 19. [97]mailto:[85]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
A 20. [98]mailto:[86]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A 21. [99]mailto:[87]andymay24 at gmail.com
A 22. [100]mailto:[88]detomaso at poca.com
A 23. [101]mailto:[89]detomaso at poca.com
A 24. [102]mailto:[90]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
A 25. [103]mailto:[91]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 26. [92][104]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 27. [105]mailto:[93]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 28. [94][106]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 29. [107]mailto:[95]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 30. [96][108]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 31. [109]mailto:[97]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
A 32. [110]mailto:[98]detomaso at poca.com
A 33. [111]mailto:[99]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
A 34. [112]mailto:[100]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
A 35. [113]mailto:[101]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A 36. [114]mailto:[102]andymay24 at gmail.com
A 37. [115]mailto:[103]detomaso at poca.com
A 38. [116]mailto:[104]detomaso at poca.com
A 39. [117]mailto:[105]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
A 40. [118]mailto:[106]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 41. [107][119]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 42. [120]mailto:[108]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 43. [109][121]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 44. [122]mailto:[110]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
A 45. [123]mailto:[111]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A 46. [124]mailto:[112]andymay24 at gmail.com
A 47. [125]mailto:[113]detomaso at poca.com
A 48. [126]mailto:[114]detomaso at poca.com
A 49. [127]mailto:[115]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
A 50. [128]mailto:[116]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 51. [117][129]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 52. [130]mailto:[118]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 53. [119][131]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 54. [132]mailto:[120]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 55. [121][133]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 56. [134]mailto:[122]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 57. [123][135]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
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[125][137]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
etc.) use the links above.
References
1. [138]http://www.ebay.com/itm/141426581678
2. [139]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
3. [140]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
4. [141]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
5. [142]mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
6. [143]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
7. [144]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
8. [145]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
9. [146]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
10. [147]mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
11. [148]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
12. [149]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
13. [150]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
14. [151]mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
15. [152]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
16. tel:%28818%29%20393-6261
17. tel:%28818%29%20653-8213
18. tel:%28818%29%20393-3147
19. [153]mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
20. [154]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
21. [155]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
22. [156]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
23. [157]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
24. [158]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
25. [159]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
26. [160]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
27. [161]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
28. [162]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
29. [163]mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
30. [164]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
31. [165]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
32. [166]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
33. [167]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
34. [168]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
35. [169]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
36. [170]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
37. [171]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
38. [172]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
39. [173]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
40. [174]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
41. [175]mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
42. [176]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
43. [177]mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
44. [178]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
45. [179]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
46. [180]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
47. [181]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
48. [182]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
49. [183]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
50. [184]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
51. [185]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
52. [186]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
53. [187]mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
54. [188]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
55. [189]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
56. [190]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
57. [191]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
58. [192]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
59. [193]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
60. [194]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
61. [195]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
62. [196]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
63. [197]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
64. [198]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
65. [199]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
66. [200]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
67. [201]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
68. [202]mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
69. [203]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
70. [204]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
71. [205]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
72. [206]mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
73. [207]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
74. [208]mailto:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
75. [209]mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
76. [210]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
77. [211]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
78. [212]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
79. [213]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
80. [214]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
81. [215]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
82. [216]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
83. [217]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
84. [218]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
85. [219]mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
86. [220]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
87. [221]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
88. [222]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
89. [223]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
90. [224]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
91. [225]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
92. [226]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
93. [227]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
94. [228]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
95. [229]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
96. [230]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
97. [231]mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
98. [232]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
99. [233]mailto:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
100. [234]mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
101. [235]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
102. [236]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
103. [237]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
104. [238]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
105. [239]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
106. [240]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
107. [241]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
108. [242]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
109. [243]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
110. [244]mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
111. [245]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
112. [246]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
113. [247]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
114. [248]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
115. [249]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
116. [250]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
117. [251]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
118. [252]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
119. [253]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
120. [254]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
121. [255]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
122. [256]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
123. [257]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
124. [258]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
125. [259]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
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[260]DeTomaso at poca.com
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[265]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
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DeTomaso mailing list
[266]DeTomaso at poca.com
[267]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
use the links above.
References
1. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
2. mailto:JDeRyke at aol.com
3. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
5. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
6. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
7. mailto:don.thomas.ieee at gmail.com
8. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
9. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
10. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
11. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
12. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
13. mailto:don.thomas.ieee at gmail.com
14. http://www.ebay.com/itm/141426581678
15. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
16. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
17. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
18. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
19. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
20. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
21. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
22. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
23. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
24. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
25. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
26. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
27. mailto:[6][14]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
28. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
29. mailto:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
30. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
31. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
32. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
33. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
34. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
35. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
36. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
37. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
38. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
39. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
40. mailto:[19][29]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
41. mailto:[20][30]charlesmccall at gmail.com
42. mailto:[21][31]andymay24 at gmail.com
43. mailto:[22][32]detomaso at poca.com
44. mailto:[23][33]detomaso at poca.com
45. mailto:[24][34]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
46. mailto:[25][35]DeTomaso at poca.com
47. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
48. mailto:[27][37]DeTomaso at poca.com
49. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
50. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
51. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
52. mailto:[31][41]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
53. mailto:[32][42]detomaso at poca.com
54. mailto:[33]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
55. mailto:[34][43]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
56. mailto:[35][44]charlesmccall at gmail.com
57. mailto:[36][45]andymay24 at gmail.com
58. mailto:[37][46]detomaso at poca.com
59. mailto:[38][47]detomaso at poca.com
60. mailto:[39][48]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
61. mailto:[40][49]DeTomaso at poca.com
62. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
63. mailto:[42][51]DeTomaso at poca.com
64. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
65. mailto:[44][53]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
66. mailto:[45][54]charlesmccall at gmail.com
67. mailto:[46][55]andymay24 at gmail.com
68. mailto:[47][56]detomaso at poca.com
69. mailto:[48][57]detomaso at poca.com
70. mailto:[49][58]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
71. mailto:[50][59]DeTomaso at poca.com
72. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
73. mailto:[52][61]DeTomaso at poca.com
74. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
75. mailto:[54][63]DeTomaso at poca.com
76. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
77. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
78. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
79. mailto:[67]charlesmccall at gmail.com
80. mailto:[68]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
81. mailto:[69]andymay24 at gmail.com
82. mailto:[70]detomaso at poca.com
83. mailto:[71]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
84. mailto:[72]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
85. mailto:[73]detomaso at poca.com
86. mailto:[74]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
87. mailto:[75]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
88. mailto:[76]charlesmccall at gmail.com
89. mailto:[77]andymay24 at gmail.com
90. mailto:[78]detomaso at poca.com
91. mailto:[79]detomaso at poca.com
92. mailto:[80]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
93. mailto:[81]DeTomaso at poca.com
94. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
95. mailto:[83]DeTomaso at poca.com
96. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
97. mailto:[85]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
98. mailto:[86]charlesmccall at gmail.com
99. mailto:[87]andymay24 at gmail.com
100. mailto:[88]detomaso at poca.com
101. mailto:[89]detomaso at poca.com
102. mailto:[90]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
103. mailto:[91]DeTomaso at poca.com
104. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
105. mailto:[93]DeTomaso at poca.com
106. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
107. mailto:[95]DeTomaso at poca.com
108. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
109. mailto:[97]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
110. mailto:[98]detomaso at poca.com
111. mailto:[99]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
112. mailto:[100]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
113. mailto:[101]charlesmccall at gmail.com
114. mailto:[102]andymay24 at gmail.com
115. mailto:[103]detomaso at poca.com
116. mailto:[104]detomaso at poca.com
117. mailto:[105]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
118. mailto:[106]DeTomaso at poca.com
119. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
120. mailto:[108]DeTomaso at poca.com
121. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
122. mailto:[110]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
123. mailto:[111]charlesmccall at gmail.com
124. mailto:[112]andymay24 at gmail.com
125. mailto:[113]detomaso at poca.com
126. mailto:[114]detomaso at poca.com
127. mailto:[115]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
128. mailto:[116]DeTomaso at poca.com
129. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
130. mailto:[118]DeTomaso at poca.com
131. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
132. mailto:[120]DeTomaso at poca.com
133. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
134. mailto:[122]DeTomaso at poca.com
135. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
136. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
137. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
138. http://www.ebay.com/itm/141426581678
139. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
140. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
141. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
142. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
143. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
144. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
145. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
146. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
147. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
148. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
149. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
150. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
151. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
152. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
153. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
154. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
155. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
156. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
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