[DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Don Thomas
don.thomas.ieee at gmail.com
Mon Feb 23 10:12:19 EST 2015
Here is one redundant system on e-bay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/141426581678
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Ken Green via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
wrote:
> Has anyone compared the failure rate on MSD ignitions to the location?
> Maybe in a hot Pantera engine compartment, the life is reduced. A lot
> of professional racers use (or at least used to use in the
> past) redundant MSD ignition systems that let them switch at any
> moment. I assume if there was something as good or better, they would
> use it.
> Ken
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Pantdino via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
> To: charlesmccall at gmail.com; terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov;
> andymay24 at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com; mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 1:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> There are tens or hundreds of millions of cars running around with
> electronic ignition systems with a failure rate of essentially zero.
> If the rate for MSDs is even 1% per year it is probably 100- 1000
> times
> higher than the other systems.
> Why would anyone use one? Doesn't it revert to single spark mode at
> like 4K anyway? What is the point?'
> Jim Oddie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles McCall <[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> To: 'Himes, Terry (397C)' (397C)' <[2]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>;
> 'Andy
> May' <[3]andymay24 at gmail.com>; detomaso <[4]detomaso at poca.com>;
> 'Mikael'
> <[5]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> Sent: Sun, Feb 22, 2015 12:56 pm
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> Terry -
> I had a similar discussion off-line with a forum member when I
> mentioned that I'd had 2 MSD boxes go bad in the 15 years I've been
> running them. He mentioned that there were numerous cases of MSD
> boxes
> failing, and I've heard them as well.
> What I don't have are facts or data with respect to failure rates. Do
> we hear about MSD boxes failing because they are 4 times as popular
> as
> the nearest competitor and that's why we hear about them? If we only
> base our opinions on "background noise" or reported issues on a
> forum,
> then Panteras are not terribly reliable, so we need to look for data.
> Does anyone know if there are any objective studies regarding failure
> rate per year, or miles, or something?
> The previous box failed (I believe) because someone welded on the car
> without disconnecting the unit, something we are warned not to do.
> This
> box I had no explanation. Happy to change units if there are
> objective
> facts that demonstrate that someone else has a better product. Any
> thoughts?
> From: Himes, Terry (397C) [[1]mailto:[6]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov]
> Sent: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2015 21:35
> To: Charles McCall; 'Andy May'; [2][7]detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> Exactly why I don't run MSD. I have heard many many stories just
> like
> this.
> (only my personal preference. no flames)
> Thanks Charles for sharing.
> "Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
> exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
> to contact us!"
> Terry W. Himes [cid:[3][8]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150]
> JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
> InSight Sequence Team Lead
> Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
> Phone: (818) 393-6261
> Cell: (818) 653-8213
> Fax: (818) 393-3147
> [1][4][9]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> d--od-,
> From: Charles McCall <[2][5][10]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:38 AM
> To: 'Andy May' <[3][6][11]andymay24 at gmail.com>,
> "[4][7][12]detomaso at poca.com"
> <[5][8][13]detomaso at poca.com>, Mikael
> <[6][9][14]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> Hi all
> Last fall, I commented that my engine wasn't running well. Symptoms
> may
> be found in the e-mail below, and consensus was that they sounded
> carb
> related, or perhaps timing related, and a number of people offered
> suggestions. But the symptoms were sort of strange and didn't seem to
> perfectly fit any of the theories as to the problem.
> On a whim, over the winter I changed the MSD 6-AL electronic
> ignition,
> since I had a spare and since the last time it failed, it gave some
> really weird symptoms; erratic and sporadic problems. I sent the box
> to
> MSD over Christmas for analysis and they confirmed that it failed
> their
> test and had some issues. OK, sounds promising but was that the cause
> of my problems?
> It's been a harsh and snowy winter, but it has rained all week, which
> cleaned most of the salt from the roads. So I took the car out today.
> I'll feel better after a longer trip, but the first impression is
> very
> positive. The hesitation and stumbling is gone, no starting problems,
> and the car ran very very well. I'm cautiously saying that the
> problem
> has been fixed.
> I wanted to leave for posterity the fact that when the MSD box fails,
> it isn't always catastrophic. It would actually almost be preferable
> if
> it would, since I have a spare it and it would make the problem a
> little more obvious. When they start to fail they get flaky -
> symptoms
> that come and go. Both times they have failed I have started by
> inspecting from top to bottom my carb, since the symptoms pointed in
> that direction. Have an engine problem that you can't eliminate? Try
> looking at your electronic ignition if you have it - it can cause all
> kinds of weird running issues.
> Thanks to all who answered
> Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel parking
> lot I
> really thought that we'd have to skip today's event because it
> wouldn't
> start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about starting.
> Took
> probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it fired.
> Yesterday
> at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something that
> has
> never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe the
> problem
> so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
> A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to stumble
> if I
> would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull. For
> example,
> I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping the
> throttle
> it
> would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a little
> rougher,
> as
> though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't remember if
> this
> was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting the valve
> lash
> (I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air filter by
> applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I was
> messing
> around in the engine bay recently...
> This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt like it
> would
> stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a little
> bit
> under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't think
> it
> is
> a clogged fuel filter.
> Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp is
> perfect.
> The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from idle,
> it'll
> stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and soft,
> if
> that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it
> occasionally
> stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It pulls hard
> when
> accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or as high
> (I
> have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to pull
> very
> easily to).
> Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info that would
> help
> in troubleshooting?
> !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
> _______________________________________________
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> 4. [17]mailto:[22]detomaso at poca.com
> 5. [18]mailto:[23]detomaso at poca.com
> 6. [19]mailto:[24]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> 7. [20]mailto:[25]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 8. [21][26]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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> 3. mailto:[33]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
> 4. mailto:[34]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 5. mailto:[35]charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 6. mailto:[36]andymay24 at gmail.com
> 7. mailto:[37]detomaso at poca.com
> 8. mailto:[38]detomaso at poca.com
> 9. mailto:[39]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> 10. mailto:[40]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 11. [41]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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> 14. mailto:[44]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov?
> 15. mailto:[45]charlesmccall at gmail.com?
> 16. mailto:[46]andymay24 at gmail.com?
> 17. mailto:[47]detomaso at poca.com?
> 18. mailto:[48]detomaso at poca.com?
> 19. mailto:[49]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk?
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> 4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 5. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> 6. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 7. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 8. mailto:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
> 9. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 10. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 11. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
> 12. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 13. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 14. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> 15. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 16. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 19. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 20. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 21. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
> 22. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 23. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 24. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> 25. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 26. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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> 29. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 30. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 31. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 32. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 33. mailto:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
> 34. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 35. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 36. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
> 37. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 38. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 39. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> 40. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 42. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 43. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 44. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 45. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 46. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
> 47. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 48. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 49. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> 50. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 51. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 52. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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-------------- next part --------------
Here is one redundant system on e-bay.
[1]http://www.ebay.com/itm/141426581678
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Ken Green via DeTomaso
<[2]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
A A Has anyone compared the failure rate on MSD ignitions to the
location?
A A Maybe in a hot Pantera engine compartment, the life is
reduced.A A lot
A A of professional racers use (or at least used to use in the
A A past) redundant MSD ignition systems that let them switch at
any
A A moment.A I assume if there was something as good or better,
they would
A A use it.
A A Ken
A A
A __________________________________________________________________
A A From: Pantdino via DeTomaso <[3]detomaso at poca.com>
A A To: [4]charlesmccall at gmail.com; [5]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov;
A A [6]andymay24 at gmail.com; [7]detomaso at poca.com;
[8]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
A A Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 1:42 PM
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
A A A There are tens or hundreds of millions of cars running
around with
A A A electronic ignition systems with a failure rate of
essentially zero.
A A A If the rate for MSDs is even 1% per year it is probably 100-
1000
A A times
A A A higher than the other systems.
A A A Why would anyone use one?A Doesn't it revert to single
spark mode at
A A A like 4K anyway?A What is the point?'
A A A Jim Oddie
A A A -----Original Message-----
A A A From: Charles McCall <[1][9]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A A A To: 'Himes, Terry (397C)' (397C)'
<[2][10]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>;
A A 'Andy
A A A May' <[3][11]andymay24 at gmail.com>; detomaso
<[4][12]detomaso at poca.com>;
A A 'Mikael'
A A A <[5][13]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
A A A Sent: Sun, Feb 22, 2015 12:56 pm
A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
A A A Terry -
A A A I had a similar discussion off-line with a forum member when I
A A A mentioned that I'd had 2 MSD boxes go bad in the 15 years I've
been
A A A running them. He mentioned that there were numerous cases of
MSD
A A boxes
A A A failing, and I've heard them as well.
A A A What I don't have are facts or data with respect to failure
rates. Do
A A A we hear about MSD boxes failing because they are 4 times as
popular
A A as
A A A the nearest competitor and that's why we hear about them? If we
only
A A A base our opinions on "background noise" or reported issues on a
A A forum,
A A A then Panteras are not terribly reliable, so we need to look for
data.
A A A Does anyone know if there are any objective studies regarding
failure
A A A rate per year, or miles, or something?
A A A The previous box failed (I believe) because someone welded on
the car
A A A without disconnecting the unit, something we are warned not to
do.
A A This
A A A box I had no explanation. Happy to change units if there are
A A objective
A A A facts that demonstrate that someone else has a better product.
Any
A A A thoughts?
A A A From: Himes, Terry (397C)
[[1]mailto:[6][14]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov]
A A A Sent: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2015 21:35
A A A To: Charles McCall; 'Andy May'; [2][7][15]detomaso at poca.com;
Mikael
A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for
suggestions
A A A Exactly why I don't run MSD.A I have heard many many
stories just
A A like
A A A this.
A A A (only my personal preference.A no flames)
A A A Thanks Charles for sharing.
A A A "Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
A A A A exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has
tried
A A A A to contact us!"
A A A Terry W. HimesA [cid:[3][8]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150]
A A A JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
A A A InSight Sequence Team Lead
A A A Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
A A A Phone: [16](818) 393-6261
A A A Cell:A A [17](818) 653-8213
A A A Fax:A A [18](818) 393-3147
A A A [1][4][9][19]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
A A A d--od-,
A A A From: Charles McCall <[2][5][10][20]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A A A Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:38 AM
A A A To: 'Andy May' <[3][6][11][21]andymay24 at gmail.com>,
A A "[4][7][12][22]detomaso at poca.com"
A A A <[5][8][13][23]detomaso at poca.com>, Mikael
A A <[6][9][14][24]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
A A A Hi all
A A A Last fall, I commented that my engine wasn't running well.
Symptoms
A A may
A A A be found in the e-mail below, and consensus was that they
sounded
A A carb
A A A related, or perhaps timing related, and a number of people
offered
A A A suggestions. But the symptoms were sort of strange and didn't
seem to
A A A perfectly fit any of the theories as to the problem.
A A A On a whim, over the winter I changed the MSD 6-AL electronic
A A ignition,
A A A since I had a spare and since the last time it failed, it gave
some
A A A really weird symptoms; erratic and sporadic problems. I sent
the box
A A to
A A A MSD over Christmas for analysis and they confirmed that it
failed
A A their
A A A test and had some issues. OK, sounds promising but was that the
cause
A A A of my problems?
A A A It's been a harsh and snowy winter, but it has rained all week,
which
A A A cleaned most of the salt from the roads. So I took the car out
today.
A A A I'll feel better after a longer trip, but the first impression
is
A A very
A A A positive. The hesitation and stumbling is gone, no starting
problems,
A A A and the car ran very very well. I'm cautiously saying that the
A A problem
A A A has been fixed.
A A A I wanted to leave for posterity the fact that when the MSD box
fails,
A A A it isn't always catastrophic. It would actually almost be
preferable
A A if
A A A it would, since I have a spare it and it would make the problem
a
A A A little more obvious. When they start to fail they get flaky -
A A symptoms
A A A that come and go. Both times they have failed I have started by
A A A inspecting from top to bottom my carb, since the symptoms
pointed in
A A A that direction. Have an engine problem that you can't
eliminate? Try
A A A looking at your electronic ignition if you have it - it can
cause all
A A A kinds of weird running issues.
A A A Thanks to all who answered
A A A A A Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel
parking
A A A lot I
A A A A A really thought that we'd have to skip today's event
because it
A A A wouldn't
A A A A A start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about
starting.
A A A Took
A A A A A probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it
fired.
A A A Yesterday
A A A A A at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start,
something that
A A has
A A A A A never, ever happened before. It is really hard to
describe the
A A A problem
A A A A A so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
A A A A A A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to
stumble
A A if I
A A A A A would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull.
For
A A A example,
A A A A A I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping
the
A A throttle
A A A it
A A A A A would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a
little
A A rougher,
A A A as
A A A A A though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't
remember if
A A A this
A A A A A was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting
the valve
A A A lash
A A A A A (I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air
filter by
A A A A A applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So
I was
A A A messing
A A A A A around in the engine bay recently...
A A A A A This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt
like it
A A A would
A A A A A stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble
a little
A A A bit
A A A A A under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I
don't think
A A it
A A A is
A A A A A a clogged fuel filter.
A A A A A Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp
is
A A perfect.
A A A A A The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from
idle,
A A A it'll
A A A A A stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated
and soft,
A A if
A A A A A that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it
A A occasionally
A A A A A stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It
pulls hard
A A A when
A A A A A accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or
as high
A A (I
A A A A A have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to
pull
A A very
A A A A A easily to).
A A A A A Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info
that would
A A A help
A A A A A in troubleshooting?
A A A !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
A A A _______________________________________________
A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A A [7][10][15][25]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A
A [8][11][16][26]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
A A A _______________________________________________
A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A A [9][12][17][27]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A
A [10][13][18][28]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A References
A A A 1. [14]mailto:[19][29]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
A A A 2. [15]mailto:[20][30]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A A A 3. [16]mailto:[21][31]andymay24 at gmail.com
A A A 4. [17]mailto:[22][32]detomaso at poca.com
A A A 5. [18]mailto:[23][33]detomaso at poca.com
A A A 6. [19]mailto:[24][34]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
A A A 7. [20]mailto:[25][35]DeTomaso at poca.com
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[21][26][36]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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9. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
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12. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
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